Yarcanine wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Yes that player. It's not a dummy parse. I saw it happen in actual fights.

Okay that must be why he said "StamSorc can't break 8k dps" because he runs 43k hp 35k armor tank builds that can heal 10k hps but can't threaten the WW. He's skilled enough to adapt, a more offensive strat that aims to win the dps race would probably be more effective. That's good for the game if the meta demands players end fights, not indefinitely turtle and reset.

The WW in question is either Pelican or Strepsel. Not a chance anyone here is killing them, considering they have 10k+ DPS, 40k+ HP, and 30k+ armor.

You need 43k HP to tank that, which means losing damage.

you literally just need to slot Shared Pain and Cutting Defense, I've killed them

You make it sound like Cutting Defense retaliates against dots as well. Because that is what would be needed for it to be any useful in this situation - on every dot tick.
Shard Pain and Cutting Defense have such low damage values that I wonder if they are truly to "blame" for you winning.

xylena wrote: »

So what happens when the S+ Tier duelers fight each other? Do they bring tank builds or do they try to race dps? Is Pelican on WW that much better than Pelican on StamSorc?

Pelican on WW will farm Pelican on Stamsorc.

Dueling between S+ Tier duelers is 30% skill, 50% builds, and 20% latency. For example:

Both duelers A and B play on PC NA. They are both S+ tier and have perfect weaving, duel sense, etc. Dueler A lives in America and has 80-100ms ping, while dueler B lives in Asia/Australia and has 250-300ms ping. When they duel each other, these scenarios will happen:

Scenario 1:
If duelers A and B use identical builds, their DPS can be similar, sometimes even identical, but dueler A has a ping advantage and can break free from CCs faster. This means a simple Incap + Spectral Bow combo is often non-threatening because they can break free and roll the Bow. On the other hand, dueler B suffers from 150-200 extra ping. That aforementioned combo now becomes a death sentence, as the game does not allow them to break free from the Incap stun fast enough to avoid the Bow. Dueler A can play defense reactively, while dueler B has to play defense proactively. Dueler B has to output more effort because he has a ping disadvantage. Dueler A will win about 6 times out of 10, while dueler B will win about 4 times out of 10 due to this ping difference.

Scenario 2:
If dueler A uses a superior build/class, then dueler B simply has little to no chance winning vs dueler A. Not only do they have to fight with ping disadvantage, but they also have to fight with a build disadvantage. 9 out of 10 duels will be a loss for dueler B.

Scenario 3:
If dueler A uses an inferior build/class, then dueler B will win about 7-8 times out of 10 duels. This ratio is not the same that in scenario 2 because dueler B still suffers from ping disadvantage, meaning a well-timed CC can give dueler A just enough time to perform a 1-shot combo.

Scenario 4:
If either dueler uses an overwhelminingly superior build (such as WW or Pyrebrand DK), then the other one simply has zero chance of winning. The best they can do in that case is stalemate.

Guess what happened between me and Pelican? It was scenario 4. While we both play with 250-300 ping, Pelican's WW build is exceedingly superior to my stamsorc. If I ran 30k HP in my normal build, I would lose 10/10 times. The fight is 100% in his control, as he is the one with significantly higher DPS. The only way for me to fight Pelican's WW build is by stalemating and hoping that he messes up. That's it.

Not only that, but Pelican and Shoyru both dueled each other plenty of times on PTS (I'm sure you know how good Shoyru is as a dueler). Shoyru plays from America, while Pelican plays from Asia. However, Pelican's WW build is so disgustingly overpowered that Shoyru, in his normal setups, lost 10/10 times. The only way for him to fight Pelican was to stalemate.

xylena wrote: »

Why would I try to tank WW damage? I can beat average meta WW player by Streaking, avoiding their hits, and pressuring from range. They don't do 10k if they can't hit you. If I don't beat Pelican that's because he's a better dueler than me.

That’s not how it works. The argument of beating average players can be used for every previous broken meta in the game. Triple proc stacking meta, Hardened Ward meta, Subclassing meta, DK meta, etc. were all abused by average players, yet the only ones posing a real threat were top-tier ones. Average players are less mechanically sound and optimized than high-level players. They can run meta builds, but they're not going to line up burst abilities perfectly or have perfect weaving and micromanagement to achieve similar DPS as top-tier ones. Does that mean those builds shouldn't be nerfed? No.

Yarcanine wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Yes that player. It's not a dummy parse. I saw it happen in actual fights.

Okay that must be why he said "StamSorc can't break 8k dps" because he runs 43k hp 35k armor tank builds that can heal 10k hps but can't threaten the WW. He's skilled enough to adapt, a more offensive strat that aims to win the dps race would probably be more effective. That's good for the game if the meta demands players end fights, not indefinitely turtle and reset.

The WW in question is either Pelican or Strepsel. Not a chance anyone here is killing them, considering they have 10k+ DPS, 40k+ HP, and 30k+ armor.

You need 43k HP to tank that, which means losing damage.

you literally just need to slot Shared Pain and Cutting Defense, I've killed them

I mean I can ask them on discord to confirm lol. If you killed them they would've known your name, as they literally rarely lose in their WW build.

hoangdz wrote: »

That’s not how it works

So how does it work then if the ceiling is too high but only like 3 guys are able to hit it? Cyro and BGs becomes one giant WW pack? I'm no S Tier dueler so if I'm beating average meta WW duelers, I doubt that. If WW warps dueling then ban WW ult from dueling, problem solved.

hoangdz wrote: »

If the majority of the player base isn’t hitting it then it shouldn’t matter if WW gets nerfed or not, right? I mean, if they can’t reach 10k DPS when WW is at its strongest, then why should any of them worry at all when WW gets nerfed for the top 0.1%?

Well then we're back to asking what exactly we're supposed to nerf about it. Has the top 0.1% tested WW builds on classes other than Sorc?

Re-capping WW Light Attack damage in Battle Spirit environments would probably be a good starting point for adjustments.

I didn't actually fill out one of these properly, so lemme do that.

Do the refreshed abilities correctly portray the mechanics of the ability?
More or less. Werewolf does feel different, but it's worth adapting to, and I do genuinely look forward to playing it more. Which I don't usually do in a PTS.

Are there any key Werewolf changes that you enjoyed?
Many of them, actually, but I'll list as many as I can because I think it's worth noting.

* Bigger size, LOVE THIS SO VERY MUCH I think the size increase is perfect. I wouldn't go any bigger as it might disrupt some aspects of competitive gameplay, but please please please don't downscale this, it's perfect just as it is.
* Model overall is actually an improvement in my opinion. I have gripes, but I won't push for them, because everyone has a different opinion and largely, playing with this new model makes me happy and that's what matters.
* Ult ability: YES thank you for not making this into werewolf behemoth, that would have been so disappointing. The whole Rage and Fury mechanics, while I'm still practicing with them, are honestly so creative and fun, and I appreciate having a unique approach to werewolf.
* Tanking ability retained. Thank you so much for not ripping this out, and even expanding upon it a little. It could perhaps be better, but it'd be hard to do while remaining balanced, and as it is for mid tier content, this works.
* Giving werewolves group Major Courage: This is huge, and will allow werewolves to not always make other, non-werewolf people roll their eyes to see one, because it will actually be beneficial to the group to have one. Playing as a werewolf alongside non-werewolf players is encouraged by this and that's a great feeling, please don't take this away.
* Allowing us to choose fur color: Beautiful addition, thank you so much. I hope this system is expanded upon in the future, even selling more skins or whatever. You could print money, guys. Werewolf people will buy it.
* Some of the animations: I have mixed opinions, some are goofy, but some are great and most are fine. Blocking/Bracing, Heavy and Light Attacks, all the skill-based animations and the stealth takedown (blade of woe style) animations all feel fun, vicious, and beastly. It just takes some getting used to, and can be jarring when first experiencing them.
* Not losing werewolf form out of combat: I was iffy on this at first, but it's actually great and I appreciate it a lot to be able to take breaks, catch up with family and friends, answer a text, go to the bathroom, stuff like that without losing werewolf form. The cheaper cost to enter the form in the first place is also a great boon.
* Power increase in general: it's no secret that this is overall a massive buff to werewolves, going from Worthless Joke to actually viable, fun, and rewarding. This is one of the biggest factors, right there with bigger size, and I'm so happy to see it.

Are there any key Werewolf changes that did not feel great?
* Audio work: I figured this would be the case for me, but I personally do not like most of the audio, but especially with how soft and quiet the howl is. Even our pet direwolves sound more imposing and scary than we do. Please bump up the volume and force of the howl. I AM however glad that we get to howl at all, as I felt fearful we would lose it entirely, so thank you for not doing that. Otherwise, some of the other audio feels very magic-y or too human, almost zombie-like rather than werewolf like, and I wouldn't mind hearing more beastly wolf noises added in the future.
* The color options we did get, while appreciated, do feel lackluster. 'Ashen', the base one, is mostly a really dark grey, and then Black is, well black, but barely different from Ashen. Then we have White, the pack leader, which is a bizarre albino, with a pink nose and otherwise no color whatsoever. Not even the claws are dark. This is great for people who wanted an albino werewolf character, but I do wish we had a proper white color, or a lot of colors actually.
* Currently our only color options are basically black, dark grey, or albino. I'd love to see more natural colors like proper greys, browns, whites that aren't albino, and even ones with proper markings. Wolves aren't just solid colors, but often come with beautiful blends of grey, brown and black, and my main werewolf character that I play as canonly is mostly black, with white/silver/grey markings, and a white-tipped tail. I don't expect this to ever come, but I would be over the moon if we got more unique skill style colors/patterns over time. See my comment about printing money, haha.
* Losing Range: I get why we lost piercing howl, and I do like Gnash better as a skill overall, but it's no secret that much of the harder content in ESO does heavily punish melee characters with unforgiving one-shots. Werewolf also still lacks some utility in the form of shields or harmful effect cleansing. Now I'm not expecting these to be granted, but I am regardless pointing them out during the height of calls for nerfs. Both PvE and PvP, werewolves have these crippling disadvantages that should be taken into account when balancing them.
* Still can't benefit from weapon passives: I really hope this is reconsidered. The Heavy Weapons, Forceful, and Battle Rush passive of Two-Handed should still apply, and passives like it from other weapon lines should apply too, because you're still using that weapon, and the passives werewolf provides aren't making up for these. Penetration is especially a major issue, and if you're not running sharpened but instead using a maul, you WILL lose precious Pen and that's rough.
* Glowing markings: I'm sorry to those who love these, but I strongly dislike them, especially Berserker's markings. If these could be toned down or optionally removed, I'd be very happy.
* The walk/run animation (two legged one) feels kind of goofy, but even then, the threshold of which you can even SEE it in normal gameplay feels so low. You basically cannot use the CP star 'Steed's Blessing' without losing out on this animation. I have nothing else increasing my speed, just that, and the animation is gone. Please consider bumping up the threshold of speed before you go on all fours, or even keep it as only when sprinting.
* The Female Model: I honestly do question the point of even having a female model when the changes are so subtle. I don't play female werewolves that much, but when I do, I think it could have been cooler to have more differences here. There are many, but they are also so minor that you can't see them unless comparing side by side. I think, at the very least, a female werewolf should not have lost her breasts. It's a natural factor of a woman's body, as a woman IRL, and werewolves are still part human (or elven or whatever). You have the fur there to cover it up so it's not inappropriate, but as it stands, it's kind of covering nothing, and that feels a little awkward.
* I might be the only one who says this, but I actually dislike the cat-like or even lizard-like eyes of the new werewolf. Neither wolves nor humans have slit pupils, why does the werewolf have them? I don't know if you're open to change this at any point, but while not a big deal, I do find it strange. Could even keep the current eyes for khajiits and argonians, but make men and mer races have round pupils.
* A specific mechanic based on here, but when running the Infinite Archive with my werewolf, one thing I noticed is an often fatal delay with our core healing ability, Hircine's (insert morph). It's supposed to be instant, but I find my other abilities healing me first through DOT/HOT before this one actually plays from when I hit the button. I don't know if it's just me, but it might be worth looking into.
Is there anything else you would like to share about the Werewolf changes?
* Overall I'm happy that werewolf got some love, and I'm actually a little impatient to get my hands on this stuff on Live, but I know it's not coming until June. I shall be patient, but it's gonna be hard haha. This upgrade may very easily be the main thing that pushes me back into no-lifing ESO again after so many years of... well, not doing that anymore.
* The main thing I beg of the devs is to please be careful with nerfs. Werewolf deserves to be strong due to the drawbacks it faces. Fix the bugs it has with some of it's own passives and stuff, and see where it lands. Some adjustments might be needed, but please don't butcher this. Players sacrifice a lot to play as a werewolf, and they should feel powerful in return. They should also be welcome in group content, rather than punished and laughed out, and there should at least be minor interaction and creativity with your base class. Please don't take away Class Masteries from them, or Major Courage.

Honestly my biggest notes here could be summed up as: I have some criticism but nothing that truly stops me from enjoying what you've provided us, and my biggest fears now is not so much what you won't change, but what you will change. I know things will change, and I'm just praying that it won't be heavy-handed and crippling to a fun refresh that we've gotten after literally years of sucking, especially in PvE.

Yarcanine wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Yarcanine wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Yes that player. It's not a dummy parse. I saw it happen in actual fights.

Okay that must be why he said "StamSorc can't break 8k dps" because he runs 43k hp 35k armor tank builds that can heal 10k hps but can't threaten the WW. He's skilled enough to adapt, a more offensive strat that aims to win the dps race would probably be more effective. That's good for the game if the meta demands players end fights, not indefinitely turtle and reset.

The WW in question is either Pelican or Strepsel. Not a chance anyone here is killing them, considering they have 10k+ DPS, 40k+ HP, and 30k+ armor.

You need 43k HP to tank that, which means losing damage.

you literally just need to slot Shared Pain and Cutting Defense, I've killed them

Also, Shared Pain and Cutting Defense won't do anything to them either. Both of them use the Conservation of Energy passive for their WW builds and stack 40k+ HP. At that HP level, Blood Magic has a 4.5k tooltip before Focused Mending CP and other healing modifiers. Every ability cast will passively proc a 2k-2.5k non crit Blood Magic heal (Battle Spirit's healing reduction accounted for). Unless your Shared Pain + Cutting Defense can somehow eat through ~2.5k-3k HPS, you're not going to make a dent in their health lol.

Go ask them, I was also on a WW when we fought so this particular point is not proving or disproving WW's strength vs other builds. But it does show that you can adapt your build to counter the insane pressure Relequens and the new WW puts out. Yeah 2.5-3k sounds about right for Shared Pain and Cutting Defense. Its the exact same build I use to counter the Rele Pyrebrand Vate DKs

Wait, so the new WW can not only do 7k+ dps but also tank 7k+ dps with a damage(shared pain) set/sets ?

xylena wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

We should balance everything based on xylena’s performance

Good idea. First I delete Charm and Rushing Agony. Then I revert the whole server to patch 1.3 but with modern gear drop QOL. Everything solved your welcome.

Didn't Dk still have 100% reflect Scales back then? I remember 1.6 was when ESO got really good.

For all of those asking for video proof of WW overperforming, here you go. Keep in mind that some of the players in this video are genuinely amongst the top pvp players in the entire game, getting absolutely obliterated with almost no chance of fighting back at all by a guy weaving two damaging skills with light attacks and 40k hp.

There is no defending how broken this is.

https://youtu.be/zYtbITjCW-4?si=geC3xCf8s0W9IhWw

I have a minor nitpick about the name change of Devour to Insatiable Hunger:



For one, the synergy's name is longer, so it looks like visual clutter. But more importantly, this is a synergy asking us to perform an action — it makes more sense to be told to "Devour" something than it does to use "Insatiable Hunger" on it.

Devour is the action we take; Insatiable Hunger is why we take the action.

Also, regarding some of the new ability icons. I do like the new icon for Pounce, and reusing the old icon for Pounce as the new icon for Carnage makes sense.


However, reusing the old Carnage icons for Gnash is a bit questionable. I think the base icon looks fine (it does look like a biting attack, after all) but the icons for Rip And Tear as well as Bloody Gnash have the same three blue or red claw marks we see on the new Carnage skills. It's reasonable to believe that new players would believe there is a connection between Carnage and Gnash because of this.


Additionally, I think the ability icon for Rending Claws looks a bit toony. The blood in that icon has no shading, so it clashes with the art style of the hand.


I do like the use of the icon used for the Werewolf Corpse Devourer achievement being used as the icon for Rampage.


Finally, I find it a bit odd that the icon for the unreleased "Werewolf Cannibal" achievement is used for Slaughter. It makes some sense, but also we can't actually use this ability on enemy werewolves because they're not considered humanoids.

Some general balance feedback:

After some testing, I'm confident enough to say Sorc Werewolf is indeed significantly stronger than the second strongest version (DK Werewolf) due to the class mastery passives sorc has that enables infinitely more healing/blocking & strong execute passive that synergizes well with WW DoTs... I would probably see if those can be restricted a bit more on werewolf, especially considering sorcerer already has some of the best class passives for playing werewolf.

Playing werewolf with dragonknight class masteries didn't feel too far "outside the box" power wise if comparing to recently reworked DK for example.


Apart from that, I'd still like to see Claw Fury get a stronger visual effect based on Blood Hunger stacks and Rampage absolutely needs an animation, VFX - something...

https://www.twitch.tv/decimus/clip/ProudGlamorousPangolinOSfrog-9UIBJ3b3Ocsin6G2

huskandhunger wrote: »

React wrote: »

For all of those asking for video proof of WW overperforming, here you go. Keep in mind that some of the players in this video are genuinely amongst the top pvp players in the entire game, getting absolutely obliterated with almost no chance of fighting back at all by a guy weaving two damaging skills with light attacks and 40k hp.

There is no defending how broken this is.

https://youtu.be/zYtbITjCW-4?si=geC3xCf8s0W9IhWw

This person is covering up their ability bar and add-ons, so I think this video is disingenuous. We would need full transparency if something is really going on otherwise who is to say this player is not simply exploiting---either in sets or in class mastery passives or other interactions we haven't thought of, those appear to be the real overpowered element.

His ability bar is visible the whole time. Addons don't change anything within the game.

I posted pelican's CMX in this thread showing what he was using anyways, but you guys told me it didn't prove anything and requested video evidence. Theres the video.

Here's the video without the AUI covered. The other black box is just the chatbox being censored.

https://youtu.be/8i0KEthi4q8?si=s-oEOZd0gnx6vKR8