Lyoralee wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

(...)
Even Skinny was on here saying 5-7% if you happened to stack every single one of the affected sets. Anyone can claw that back simply by practicing their rotation and getting better at the game. Then you toggle one set for another and you're good to go.

Me: These changes will keep out newer players from getting into raids because especially Tideborn as very accessible craftable set will not be good enough anymore without perfecting rotation and weaving - which honestly new players never are, especially the weaving part.
You: Just practice and print a new set.

I mean, what else is there to say but: please read the comment before commenting.

Oh and btw, a well done meta shake-up is when more builds become meta, not when one set of builds gets replaced by another set. And in this case its not even a set of builds, its just "a set". What they are doing with class sets and the class masteries, THATS a meta shakeup. Nerfing dmg vs monsters without proper re-work is just plain a nerf, and in case of Tideborn and Empower - as I stated above - one thats really harmful for new players.

No, I just do not believe that it is unreasonable to ask someone to do either of those things.

ESO is a mostly casual game but at a certain point (such as if you are going after esoteric DLC trial achievements, the only content that anyone could reasonably be gate-kept over) you need to actually put in the work to accomplish your goals in it. Said work includes practice and farming new sets.

If someone refuses to do that then they have boxed themselves into a corner and have blocked their own progression in the game. And that is not anyone's fault except that particular obstinate player.

The gear change shouldn’t break new players - they are broken by not learning mechanics, not functioning in group content, and not being strong with their rotation. I ran Velothi on a 2 bar petsorc for a while before switching to the beam meta and it worked fine. Most vet trials and hard modes can be easily completed with far less than the 120k+ damage everyone says they want (even though yes it’s much easier). If the gear change tanks their builds badly enough they can’t compete anymore they probably weren’t ready anyway. Progging and playing endgame content is supposed to be a challenge and takes a lot of work to get there. Player gear is only a piece of the equation.

allochthons wrote: »

If Skinny's back of the envelope math is correct, a Tideborn/Velothi build would lose 10%. That is fairly significant. Add in Ansuul, and it's more like 15-20%. (Again, back of the envelope math by Skinny).

But, nerfing both Velothi and Empower, and other sets that are set and forget (i.e. no stacks) really hits the folks who have accessibility issues or physical issues preventing good weaving.

With oakensoul still in the tank, we're getting hit pretty hard.

I had been working on my DPS, and weaving, to try to get into a few prog groups. No chance, now. I was already barely going to hit the bottom acceptable numbers, thanks to my arthritis.

His math is wrong. Velothi is +15% but you lose LA damage which is around 7%, so it's 8% in all.

The nerfs max out around 10% of damage lost.

I see multiple people mention that these sets should be changed because the numbers were “unintentional” or a “programming error”.

I assume then that those people also think light attack weaving should be removed from the game since that was also unintentional. Right?

Arunei wrote: »

dcrush wrote: »

I see multiple people mention that these sets should be changed because the numbers were “unintentional” or a “programming error”.

I assume then that those people also think light attack weaving should be removed from the game since that was also unintentional. Right?

That's a hell of a stretch to make. It wasn't intended but afaik they also couldn't quite figure out how to remove it without also breaking other parts of combat, so they just implemented it. But plenty of people DO think LA Weaving shouldn't exist, so this is kind of a strange argument to try and make regardless. Me personally, I always spam my left mouse button anyway, not even to LA Weave but just because it makes my brain happy to go clickclickclick.

By this logic they should just never fix anything even if they can because of stuff they couldn't. People can acknowledge that a borked thing is getting fixed without being being told they also think X or Y about the game.

But what’s the time threshold on changing such things? Light attack weaving was unintended and has been in the game for more than a decade so we accept it as “how it is”. Velothi and Ansuul have been in the game for three years. Empower much longer. But those are ok to change and LA weaving aren’t?

I can understand if people feel it’s overpowered (we can agree to disagree on that) or if they are tired of the beam meta but I just feel that defending the change “because it wasn’t intended” is a strange stance to take after years of something working a certain way and being ignored.

That being said, I’ll survive whether they nerf it or not because I don’t think the difference is that big.

I’ve gotta jump in here and call bs on the whole thing of fixing the error in how the damage to these sets was calculated. It’s a nerf that they’re selling as a fix. Furthermore, I’m bothered that they appear to have put a great deal of thought into how they could unnecessarily widen the gap between average players and the top players.

Malprave wrote: »

I’ve gotta jump in here and call bs on the whole thing of fixing the error in how the damage to these sets was calculated. It’s a nerf that they’re selling as a fix. Furthermore, I’m bothered that they appear to have put a great deal of thought into how they could unnecessarily widen the gap between average players and the top players.

You haven't been in ESO long? Because this has been a thing since the beginning. A skill or set is implemented, only to realize later that a coding dev accidently mis-typed a number but it wasn't until they went through during an update pass or investigation and discovered the problem. This has happened many many times.

IMO, they probably took a look at the 'most used' sets to see why people were using them so much over others, and realized the error.

Athory wrote: »

Nerfing sets is always welcome, always. It helps bring overperforming "meta" sets closer in line with non-meta options, which should improve overall balance.

The real problem isn’t the nerf itself. The issue is that ZoS often nerfs one set to prevent extreme numbers, only to introduce another set that pushes the ceiling even higher. So in practice, nothing really changes.

At the end of the day, there will always be a meta. The problem is that the game keeps revolving around DPS rather than encouraging meaningful diversity in builds or playstyles. It’s not truly about offering different ways to deal damage, it’s just about chasing higher numbers with new sets.

Nerfing sets is welcome? What? By who? When?

Nyseto wrote: »

Those are literally my 3 main set items I run all together on my Arcanist. Who else is in the same boat? Any thoughts and suggestions? Discuss

If you think about it - how Ansuul's use is intended (interrupt for extra damage), it actually got a huge buff (30 seconds of 18% extra damage!). could good for solo if you use a scribed soulburst with pull/interrupt trait on it for example, but def nerfed for group content

Malprave wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

Nerfing sets is always welcome, always. It helps bring overperforming "meta" sets closer in line with non-meta options, which should improve overall balance.

The real problem isn’t the nerf itself. The issue is that ZoS often nerfs one set to prevent extreme numbers, only to introduce another set that pushes the ceiling even higher. So in practice, nothing really changes.

At the end of the day, there will always be a meta. The problem is that the game keeps revolving around DPS rather than encouraging meaningful diversity in builds or playstyles. It’s not truly about offering different ways to deal damage, it’s just about chasing higher numbers with new sets.

Nerfing sets is welcome? What? By who? When?

By dozens of people, dozens!

coop500 wrote: »

So, for someone who just runs Tide Born and Order's Wrath (with Oakensoul), how bad is the nerf for Tide Born by itself?

No nerf in this case.

The nerf comes from stacking sets that have '+damage to monsters', which will stack additively rather than multiplicatively with each other come next patch.

You are only wearing one set with '+damage to monsters' so you will not notice any changes.

dcrush wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

dcrush wrote: »

I see multiple people mention that these sets should be changed because the numbers were “unintentional” or a “programming error”.

I assume then that those people also think light attack weaving should be removed from the game since that was also unintentional. Right?

That's a hell of a stretch to make. It wasn't intended but afaik they also couldn't quite figure out how to remove it without also breaking other parts of combat, so they just implemented it. But plenty of people DO think LA Weaving shouldn't exist, so this is kind of a strange argument to try and make regardless. Me personally, I always spam my left mouse button anyway, not even to LA Weave but just because it makes my brain happy to go clickclickclick.

By this logic they should just never fix anything even if they can because of stuff they couldn't. People can acknowledge that a borked thing is getting fixed without being being told they also think X or Y about the game.

But what’s the time threshold on changing such things? Light attack weaving was unintended and has been in the game for more than a decade so we accept it as “how it is”. Velothi and Ansuul have been in the game for three years. Empower much longer. But those are ok to change and LA weaving aren’t?

I can understand if people feel it’s overpowered (we can agree to disagree on that) or if they are tired of the beam meta but I just feel that defending the change “because it wasn’t intended” is a strange stance to take after years of something working a certain way and being ignored.

That being said, I’ll survive whether they nerf it or not because I don’t think the difference is that big.

LA Weaving isn't just "how it is", it's literally been embraced by ZOS and I believe there's even a loading screen tooltip about it. Skills have been changed or made to look better if animation canceled into a LA (I mean hell, Gnash and its Morphs is an example, the second hit doesn't have a cast time so you can animation cancel it without concern). It was something they couldn't remove without borking other parts of the game so it is now literally a feature they endorse.

The adjustment for these Sets, though? Who has any idea when they noticed these Sets were doing multiplicative damage rather than additive and how long they were working on fixing them? Just because we see a fix to something that's been in the game a while doesn't mean that problem was discovered at the start or that the fix was something that was immediately able to be made. If something isn't working how it was originally intended to and is like that for a few years, it should still be fixed once it can be. Because numbers can always be tweaked and edited, they've even said they'll be watching numbers and feedback to know if they need to buff anything.

I don't think Empower is being nerfed, it should still be the same HA damage increase it was? It just isn't going to, again, get a multiplicative boost rather than an additive one. It'll function the same way afaik.

Malprave wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Malprave wrote: »

I’ve gotta jump in here and call bs on the whole thing of fixing the error in how the damage to these sets was calculated. It’s a nerf that they’re selling as a fix. Furthermore, I’m bothered that they appear to have put a great deal of thought into how they could unnecessarily widen the gap between average players and the top players.

You are reading WAY too much into this and seeing what you want to see.

The reality is that the "two buckets" phenomenon was exposed by a popular creator during the U49 DK adjustment process. Because ZOS made a change to DK that had a much higher impact on its overall DPS than they assumed that it would. Due to the two buckets and ZOS not being aware that they buffed damage differently.

Once the root cause of the gap between ZOS' expectation with that change vs. reality was determined, they looked at what else was inadvertently misbehaving under the hood due to those same mechanics (e.g. these sets and Empower, etc.). And now they are tidying that up.

They are not targeting anyone. There is no conspiracy.

I didn't say it was a conspiracy. But it is deliberate. They looked at these sets and decided they were doing too much damage so they decided to nerf them. They're nerfing them by putting them in a damage class or bucket or whatever you want to call it where the things that are in there don't work anymore. That's where all the garbage sets in the game reside. Just what we need, more garbage sets.
Who is impacted by this? The same player as always, the average player.

I don't think we should be saying that ZOS actively is after things to nerf like this, as it comes across as conspiratorial. You're claiming that they're just out to nerf things and flatout refusing to acknowledge that it is much more likely this is just something they only now have a fix for. Let's not go acting like our thoughts or beliefs about something are objective fact.

This is also conveniently overlooking the whole "we'll buff things if we need to" in the dev comment under that section. The current dev team has been a LOT more receptive to feedback than what we've seen in years, so I don't think it's at all fair to claim that they're purposefully trying to nerf things to make it harder for people just for the sake of doing so and will never actually buff anything that needs it.

Arunei wrote: »

dcrush wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

dcrush wrote: »

I see multiple people mention that these sets should be changed because the numbers were “unintentional” or a “programming error”.

I assume then that those people also think light attack weaving should be removed from the game since that was also unintentional. Right?

That's a hell of a stretch to make. It wasn't intended but afaik they also couldn't quite figure out how to remove it without also breaking other parts of combat, so they just implemented it. But plenty of people DO think LA Weaving shouldn't exist, so this is kind of a strange argument to try and make regardless. Me personally, I always spam my left mouse button anyway, not even to LA Weave but just because it makes my brain happy to go clickclickclick.

By this logic they should just never fix anything even if they can because of stuff they couldn't. People can acknowledge that a borked thing is getting fixed without being being told they also think X or Y about the game.

But what’s the time threshold on changing such things? Light attack weaving was unintended and has been in the game for more than a decade so we accept it as “how it is”. Velothi and Ansuul have been in the game for three years. Empower much longer. But those are ok to change and LA weaving aren’t?

I can understand if people feel it’s overpowered (we can agree to disagree on that) or if they are tired of the beam meta but I just feel that defending the change “because it wasn’t intended” is a strange stance to take after years of something working a certain way and being ignored.

That being said, I’ll survive whether they nerf it or not because I don’t think the difference is that big.

LA Weaving isn't just "how it is", it's literally been embraced by ZOS and I believe there's even a loading screen tooltip about it. Skills have been changed or made to look better if animation canceled into a LA (I mean hell, Gnash and its Morphs is an example, the second hit doesn't have a cast time so you can animation cancel it without concern). It was something they couldn't remove without borking other parts of the game so it is now literally a feature they endorse.

The adjustment for these Sets, though? Who has any idea when they noticed these Sets were doing multiplicative damage rather than additive and how long they were working on fixing them? Just because we see a fix to something that's been in the game a while doesn't mean that problem was discovered at the start or that the fix was something that was immediately able to be made. If something isn't working how it was originally intended to and is like that for a few years, it should still be fixed once it can be. Because numbers can always be tweaked and edited, they've even said they'll be watching numbers and feedback to know if they need to buff anything.

I don't think Empower is being nerfed, it should still be the same HA damage increase it was? It just isn't going to, again, get a multiplicative boost rather than an additive one. It'll function the same way afaik.

Malprave wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Malprave wrote: »

I’ve gotta jump in here and call bs on the whole thing of fixing the error in how the damage to these sets was calculated. It’s a nerf that they’re selling as a fix. Furthermore, I’m bothered that they appear to have put a great deal of thought into how they could unnecessarily widen the gap between average players and the top players.

You are reading WAY too much into this and seeing what you want to see.

The reality is that the "two buckets" phenomenon was exposed by a popular creator during the U49 DK adjustment process. Because ZOS made a change to DK that had a much higher impact on its overall DPS than they assumed that it would. Due to the two buckets and ZOS not being aware that they buffed damage differently.

Once the root cause of the gap between ZOS' expectation with that change vs. reality was determined, they looked at what else was inadvertently misbehaving under the hood due to those same mechanics (e.g. these sets and Empower, etc.). And now they are tidying that up.

They are not targeting anyone. There is no conspiracy.

I didn't say it was a conspiracy. But it is deliberate. They looked at these sets and decided they were doing too much damage so they decided to nerf them. They're nerfing them by putting them in a damage class or bucket or whatever you want to call it where the things that are in there don't work anymore. That's where all the garbage sets in the game reside. Just what we need, more garbage sets.
Who is impacted by this? The same player as always, the average player.

I don't think we should be saying that ZOS actively is after things to nerf like this, as it comes across as conspiratorial. You're claiming that they're just out to nerf things and flatout refusing to acknowledge that it is much more likely this is just something they only now have a fix for. Let's not go acting like our thoughts or beliefs about something are objective fact.

This is also conveniently overlooking the whole "we'll buff things if we need to" in the dev comment under that section. The current dev team has been a LOT more receptive to feedback than what we've seen in years, so I don't think it's at all fair to claim that they're purposefully trying to nerf things to make it harder for people just for the sake of doing so and will never actually buff anything that needs it.

You're right, I'm going a little over the top here, and I love the new ZOS! They are doing really great things in the game right now. But I hate to see the old ZOS rearing it's head again. Taking a BIS item like Velothi and nerfing it to the point of being useless is a terrible move.
And yes they said they are going to adjust things. But I really want to call out how bad these nerfs are and I think as someone active on the PTS that's what I should be doing. I have tested Velothi and I wasn't exaggerating when I said above that it's useless. For any type of build a player might envision it's totally useless.
We need more things that work, not less. We need more buffs to things like Pyrebrand and Monolith of Storms. I can't tell you how awesome it was to load up my armory build that uses Monolith and find out how great this set is now. This is what we need more of, more variety, more sets that work, not less.
Some have said that players have called for this nerf. That may be true but I think that's a tiny minority. I think what most players have said many times is that we need more buffs to sets, not nerfs.
And if I sound like I'm exaggerating sometimes it's because I feel like this is a message that still hasn't made it through to ZOS.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

If Skinny's back of the envelope math is correct, <snip>

His math is wrong. Velothi is +15% but you lose LA damage which is around 7%, so it's 8% in all.
The nerfs max out around 10% of damage lost.

and

skinnycheeks wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

If Skinny's back of the envelope math is correct,

Pretty sure when i plugged in all 3 of those together it was more like a 5-7% dps loss. Still rough but not 15-20%

Fair. 👍