Nerf to Ansuul’s, Tide-born, and Velothi is gutting my Arcanist build

Nyseto

Those are literally my 3 main set items I run all together on my Arcanist. Who else is in the same boat? Any thoughts and suggestions? Discuss

ManDraKE

Make another build

End.

Cominfordatoothbrush

Not too surprising to see 3 of the most commonly used sets to be nerfed. Are the nerfs so bad that there isn't even a use case for them for you now or is dps just somewhat lower?

YandereGirlfriend

Cominfordatoothbrush wrote: »

Not too surprising to see 3 of the most commonly used sets to be nerfed. Are the nerfs so bad that there isn't even a use case for them for you now or is dps just somewhat lower?

DPS is slightly lower.

If folk never read the patch notes they would never even notice the difference.

It never made any sense that these specific items were the "Golden Children" benefiting from essentially programming errors.

Medicate

Nerf to Ansuul’s, Tide-born, and Velothi is gutting my Arcanist build

good, screw arcanist meta

Cominfordatoothbrush

About what I was thinking. Maybe a few percent dps loss

allochthons

If Skinny's back of the envelope math is correct, a Tideborn/Velothi build would lose 10%. That is fairly significant. Add in Ansuul, and it's more like 15-20%. (Again, back of the envelope math by Skinny).

But, nerfing both Velothi and Empower, and other sets that are set and forget (i.e. no stacks) really hits the folks who have accessibility issues or physical issues preventing good weaving.

With oakensoul still in the tank, we're getting hit pretty hard.

I had been working on my DPS, and weaving, to try to get into a few prog groups. No chance, now. I was already barely going to hit the bottom acceptable numbers, thanks to my arthritis.

Soarora

It’s not gutted. People using gutted around here for relatively small things has given me a pet peeve against the word. As far as I’ve been hearing, tide/null/velothi is still fine…

ManDraKE

allochthons wrote: »

If Skinny's back of the envelope math is correct, a Tideborn/Velothi build would lose 10%. That is fairly significant. Add in Ansuul, and it's more like 15-20%. (Again, back of the envelope math by Skinny).

But, nerfing both Velothi and Empower, and other sets that are set and forget (i.e. no stacks) really hits the folks who have accessibility issues or physical issues preventing good weaving.

With oakensoul still in the tank, we're getting hit pretty hard.

I had been working on my DPS, and weaving, to try to get into a few prog groups. No chance, now. I was already barely going to hit the bottom acceptable numbers, thanks to my arthritis.

if you insist in stacking those 3 when the changes clearly aim to avoid having those 3 stacked to overperform, then you are choosing to nerf yourself. Just swap tideborn/ansul for any other stat-based or proc set and you are good, you can still play your simplified beam playstyle.

Just because the current gear meta is changed it doesnt mean now you have to be good a weaving because the playstyle is dead, just swap 1 gear set and keep playing as before. It just math that changed, the playstyle is still valid.

guarstompemoji

I liked Ansuul. The alternative will be the Coral minigame. Or, one of the IA sets, it's looking like, which is a grind.

Tide was also accessible and craftable.

Things change, tho.

Maybe we'll get fortunate and they'll buff more sets across the board, and trim some of the excess ones. More choices, more flavors, yet less overwhelming to new players.

Necrotech_Master

if your running a beam build, you could always just switch ansuul for yandirs

yandirs is extremely easy to build up and maintain 10 stacks while beaming because its all direct dmg that your doing, and its a flat weapon/spell dmg buff instead of a % increase

my main dps build right now is using kazpian/highland sentinel/velothi with a maelstrom 2h back bar (so i have 3 things as well which are using % dmg increases)

if it impacts me too much ill probably just go back to yandirs, my pure class arcanist is still running a yandirs setup which still works pretty well too

theres plenty of options that just buff weapon/spell dmg which are viable alternatives

skinnycheeks

allochthons wrote: »

If Skinny's back of the envelope math is correct, a Tideborn/Velothi build would lose 10%. That is fairly significant. Add in Ansuul, and it's more like 15-20%. (Again, back of the envelope math by Skinny).

But, nerfing both Velothi and Empower, and other sets that are set and forget (i.e. no stacks) really hits the folks who have accessibility issues or physical issues preventing good weaving.

With oakensoul still in the tank, we're getting hit pretty hard.

I had been working on my DPS, and weaving, to try to get into a few prog groups. No chance, now. I was already barely going to hit the bottom acceptable numbers, thanks to my arthritis.

Pretty sure when i plugged in all 3 of those together it was more like a 5-7% dps loss. Still rough but not 15-20%

Wuuffyy

Medicate wrote: »

Nerf to Ansuul’s, Tide-born, and Velothi is gutting my Arcanist build

good, screw arcanist meta

Claw (werewolf) meta will rain supreme... joking it looks like much less deeps but still good

RandomKodiak

Yeah an 8% loss if you were using all 3 sets is a hit but definately manageable . As others have said you can mitigate by switching out sets, Deadly for Tideborn, Yandir or Null for Ansuls. The empower nerf was totally uncalled for though as most people using HA builds were doing so for physical issues and such and they were so far behind regular builds anyway there was no need there. 16% nerf on builds that were already 15% or more behind is just cruel.It will make the game unplayable for anything other than overland for many that were just getting by already and weren't asking or trying for HM Vet clears or inconveniencing anybody.

SolarRune

These changes as a group seem to be targeting low CPM builds - so maybe we won't have viable beam builds on every class as some have suggested, if the main sets that make these builds accessible are being hit.

Although it did say in patch notes they would review the numbers and adjust where necessary. So I hope this is more about just the technicalities of how the damage is applied/calculated and not a direct attack on the accessibility builds.

twisttop138

It's a hit for sure. I have guild members who are older, or handicapped or just not great at stuff like weaving, that we've gotten into actual decent raiding with stuff like this. Having stuff to help accessibility helps. Not everyone is on the level of trifecta clearing and score pushing, and the screw them attitude because people are sick of the beam meta is not helpful and comes across with the attitude that most people attribute to everyone who raids. At the end of the day though, this is a pretty minor inconvenience. I'm sure a new thing will shine through and everyone will be fine. It'll be ok if your numbers don't go burrrr as high as they did. Let's spice it up.

Heronisan

I just find it annoying to have to go back to barbed trap, i hate using that skill in content with a passion. And not everyone is an arcanist with free penetration, so its an annoying change to deal with swapping out velothi. The double nerf to velothi and ansuul now means i gotta look elsewhere for 3,5k pen, and probably forced to put on more light pieces and valkyn scoria monster helm.

My biggest annoyance is barbed trap, god i hate that skill.

Prionyx

Nyseto wrote: »

Those are literally my 3 main set items I run all together on my Arcanist. Who else is in the same boat? Any thoughts and suggestions? Discuss

Any nerf to beam builds is welcome and deserved, what's bad about it?

Nyseto

Let’s say I want to run the Spattering Disjunction class set for Arcanist, what would pair best with it?

Orbital78

Nyseto wrote: »

Let’s say I want to run the Spattering Disjunction class set for Arcanist, what would pair best with it?

I had been running ansuuls and deadly for a long time. Maybe null arca or back to riptide.

SilverIce58

And? What about it? Are you suddenly not going to be able to complete content bc you got nerfed? That sounds like more of a player skill issue than one brought about by nerfs. Oh no, the boss you've already fought died 30 seconds later than it did before the nerf. Please be serious.

YandereGirlfriend

SolarRune wrote: »

These changes as a group seem to be targeting low CPM builds - so maybe we won't have viable beam builds on every class as some have suggested, if the main sets that make these builds accessible are being hit.

Although it did say in patch notes they would review the numbers and adjust where necessary. So I hope this is more about just the technicalities of how the damage is applied/calculated and not a direct attack on the accessibility builds.

They aren't "targeting" anything or anyone.

Did you read the dev comment? They are cleaning up a programming error that has artificially privileged certain item sets above others in a completely unintended way. It is very clear about why the change is being made.

The only value that should be buffed back up is Empower, IMO.

coop500

So, for someone who just runs Tide Born and Order's Wrath (with Oakensoul), how bad is the nerf for Tide Born by itself?

Prionyx

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SolarRune wrote: »

These changes as a group seem to be targeting low CPM builds - so maybe we won't have viable beam builds on every class as some have suggested, if the main sets that make these builds accessible are being hit.

Although it did say in patch notes they would review the numbers and adjust where necessary. So I hope this is more about just the technicalities of how the damage is applied/calculated and not a direct attack on the accessibility builds.

They aren't "targeting" anything or anyone.

Did you read the dev comment? They are cleaning up a programming error that has artificially privileged certain item sets above others in a completely unintended way. It is very clear about why the change is being made.

The only value that should be buffed back up is Empower, IMO.

Born from shadow should be buffed back too, it's literally in the worst skill line in the game

Lyoralee

Here the perspective of someone that just tentatively returned to the world of ESO after totally getting burned out by the heavy handed changes being made to race passives, sets, class abilities a few years ago.

This change gives me PTSD. Because its just as heavy handed as changes were being done back then, that would result in me having to scramble on each patch to farm other set items, level a new character, farm mats, just to keep up with getting into medium-difficult endcontent like casual raiding.
Its like someone went through a database to look for dmg vs monster modifier and listed everything without really looking at WHAT exactly they are nerfing there. Well, except for ansuuls. But then they stopped at ansuuls, because why was Empower just nerfed instead of re-worked? Is it because someone started with "A" and just gave up after because too much work?
And ofc, as always, the ever present promise of monitoring and iterating. Which might happen, months or years later. Or never.

Now, the rest of the patchnotes is quite positive, and this issue with the "fixing a programming error" is one of the few items in there that are done badly.


Also, I dont want to overly comment on the "just get other sets, duh" comments, because I feel like most of those are just troll comments. And if you are one of those that posted one of those comments in earnest: Maybe rethink that statement. Not everyone is a veteran player with tons of transmutation charges banked and all sets unlocked. New players have a really rough time getting into raids because you hit a gearing ceiling that sets like Tideborn managed to break through.
ESO really could benefit from looking at other mmos like GW2 or FF14, in terms of how often gear has to be updated and how time consuming it is to do so.

Dalsinthus

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SolarRune wrote: »

These changes as a group seem to be targeting low CPM builds - so maybe we won't have viable beam builds on every class as some have suggested, if the main sets that make these builds accessible are being hit.

Although it did say in patch notes they would review the numbers and adjust where necessary. So I hope this is more about just the technicalities of how the damage is applied/calculated and not a direct attack on the accessibility builds.

They aren't "targeting" anything or anyone.

Did you read the dev comment? They are cleaning up a programming error that has artificially privileged certain item sets above others in a completely unintended way. It is very clear about why the change is being made.

The only value that should be buffed back up is Empower, IMO.

While I'm not opposed to the change, these sets have functioned this way for years and it is going to be disruptive to a lot of players for this change to go into effect. It particularly hurts players that are just breaking into harder content and heavy attack players that have seen many nerfs since U35.

Here's the actual notes and developer comment about this:

Fixed an issue where some bonuses that granted “damage done to monsters” were multiplicative with other damage bonuses, instead of additive. Affects the following;
Ansuul’s Torment: Also adjusted this set to 6% damage done to monsters, increasing to 18% for 30 seconds after interrupting, rather than 7% and increasing to 14% for 10 seconds after interrupting.
Bahsei’s Mania: Increased this set’s bonus to 12% max, up from 10%.
Empower
Shadow Cloak
Tidborn Wildstalker
Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet

[Developer Comment]
Spoiler
This fix will result in the affected effects to be reduced in power when used in tandem with other percent based damage bonuses. While we've gently increased some of the affected effects, some of these remain untouched until we get more data on average value impacts (since the change in power was dependent on what other bonuses were being ran in tandem), which we can rectify during PTS or in a future update if necessary.

No where do they say that the multiplicative way of calculating monster damage was a programing error or completely unintended. They also don't say that they are targeting any player or group.

It does say that they are open to buffing these sets and bonuses if the nerf effect is too great. I really hope that they follow through on this, particularly for empower and heavy attack builds which are now low damage setups that are not really viable outside of overland.

YandereGirlfriend

Lyoralee wrote: »

Here the perspective of someone that just tentatively returned to the world of ESO after totally getting burned out by the heavy handed changes being made to race passives, sets, class abilities a few years ago.

This change gives me PTSD. Because its just as heavy handed as changes were being done back then, that would result in me having to scramble on each patch to farm other set items, level a new character, farm mats, just to keep up with getting into medium-difficult endcontent like casual raiding.
Its like someone went through a database to look for dmg vs monster modifier and listed everything without really looking at WHAT exactly they are nerfing there. Well, except for ansuuls. But then they stopped at ansuuls, because why was Empower just nerfed instead of re-worked? Is it because someone started with "A" and just gave up after because too much work?
And ofc, as always, the ever present promise of monitoring and iterating. Which might happen, months or years later. Or never.

Now, the rest of the patchnotes is quite positive, and this issue with the "fixing a programming error" is one of the few items in there that are done badly.


Also, I dont want to overly comment on the "just get other sets, duh" comments, because I feel like most of those are just troll comments. And if you are one of those that posted one of those comments in earnest: Maybe rethink that statement. Not everyone is a veteran player with tons of transmutation charges banked and all sets unlocked. New players have a really rough time getting into raids because you hit a gearing ceiling that sets like Tideborn managed to break through.
ESO really could benefit from looking at other mmos like GW2 or FF14, in terms of how often gear has to be updated and how time consuming it is to do so.

Unlucky for you, I suppose.

But the game is exiting a 3-year period with an almost completely frozen/stagnant PvE meta. So while it may represent a change for you for many others who have been here this whole time it is a refreshing shake-up.

It is also extremely easy to over-state these changes. Empower is the only truly eyebrow-raising power decrease and I would expect that to get buffed back up to whatever value it needs to restore it to the previous power level.

But like Velothi? Such a needed change. That single Mythic obsoleted literally everything that came before it. Outside of purely single-target fights, it still does. It is absurdly good. Nobody will ever notice a few fractional percentage points of DPS in actual content. Nobody would even notice if these changes went Live without an announcement. It is, in other words, a tempest in a teapot.

Even Skinny was on here saying 5-7% if you happened to stack every single one of the affected sets. Anyone can claw that back simply by practicing their rotation and getting better at the game. Then you toggle one set for another and you're good to go.

Orbital78

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Even Skinny was on here saying 5-7% if you happened to stack every single one of the affected sets. Anyone can claw that back simply by practicing their rotation and getting better at the game. Then you toggle one set for another and you're good to go.

That is still a major bonus from a 5 pc set, so I think it would be noticed. I think beam was in a strong enough position before, and has more balance yet to come. I am worried they are trying to delete heavy attack builds from the game again though. Are they making up for the yet more loss of power from the builds? Is voidmantle getting some buffs, is empower being reworked? The whole pvp/pve balance is a mess with that.

Lucky for them, the MMO space is kind of stagnant currently. There is only one sci-fi MMO coming out that even remotely perks my interest and I don't know how true MMO it will even be.

YandereGirlfriend

Orbital78 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Even Skinny was on here saying 5-7% if you happened to stack every single one of the affected sets. Anyone can claw that back simply by practicing their rotation and getting better at the game. Then you toggle one set for another and you're good to go.

That is still a major bonus from a 5 pc set, so I think it would be noticed. I think beam was in a strong enough position before, and has more balance yet to come. I am worried they are trying to delete heavy attack builds from the game again though. Are they making up for the yet more loss of power from the builds? Is voidmantle getting some buffs, is empower being reworked? The whole pvp/pve balance is a mess with that.

Lucky for them, the MMO space is kind of stagnant currently. There is only one sci-fi MMO coming out that even remotely perks my interest and I don't know how true MMO it will even be.

A modern Heavy Attack build isn't going to be using these sets, though.

They're going to be using Rakkhat, Sergeant's, and then whatever third set (e.g. Noble Duelist, Infallible Aether, Storm Master, etc.). So they are only getting touched by Empower, which, I think that most agree, needs a buff back up.

If someone is out there using Velothi on a HA build then they are doing it WAY, WAY, WAY wrong.

Lyoralee

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

(...)
Even Skinny was on here saying 5-7% if you happened to stack every single one of the affected sets. Anyone can claw that back simply by practicing their rotation and getting better at the game. Then you toggle one set for another and you're good to go.

Me: These changes will keep out newer players from getting into raids because especially Tideborn as very accessible craftable set will not be good enough anymore without perfecting rotation and weaving - which honestly new players never are, especially the weaving part.
You: Just practice and print a new set.

I mean, what else is there to say but: please read the comment before commenting.

Oh and btw, a well done meta shake-up is when more builds become meta, not when one set of builds gets replaced by another set. And in this case its not even a set of builds, its just "a set". What they are doing with class sets and the class masteries, THATS a meta shakeup. Nerfing dmg vs monsters without proper re-work is just plain a nerf, and in case of Tideborn and Empower - as I stated above - one thats really harmful for new players.

Orbital78

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Even Skinny was on here saying 5-7% if you happened to stack every single one of the affected sets. Anyone can claw that back simply by practicing their rotation and getting better at the game. Then you toggle one set for another and you're good to go.

That is still a major bonus from a 5 pc set, so I think it would be noticed. I think beam was in a strong enough position before, and has more balance yet to come. I am worried they are trying to delete heavy attack builds from the game again though. Are they making up for the yet more loss of power from the builds? Is voidmantle getting some buffs, is empower being reworked? The whole pvp/pve balance is a mess with that.

Lucky for them, the MMO space is kind of stagnant currently. There is only one sci-fi MMO coming out that even remotely perks my interest and I don't know how true MMO it will even be.

A modern Heavy Attack build isn't going to be using these sets, though.

They're going to be using Rakkhat, Sergeant's, and then whatever third set (e.g. Noble Duelist, Infallible Aether, Storm Master, etc.). So they are only getting touched by Empower, which, I think that most agree, needs a buff back up.

If someone is out there using Velothi on a HA build then they are doing it WAY, WAY, WAY wrong.

I was just trying to point out that it isn't a minor nerf, but that beam meta was already strong enough that it wouldn't be catastrophic. Quite a few of my friends that have quit the game were using Velothi on non-beam builds though, one was cooking on a bow/bow necro doing Mindmenders and stuff.

@ZOS_Kevin Empower is central to heavy attack builds though. Maybe they can either delay this change to empower until they revisit heavy attack builds or the most popular heavy attack class Sorcerer. I think Oakensoul is already stacked enough, but maybe Voidmantle could be tuned some, if the top enders or combat team are too worried about one bars being too much fun or powerful. The cleave nerfs really felt horrible.