U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

xylena · April 16

Decimus wrote: »

The way I see it, main issue is the infinite healing/sustain provided by Conservation of Energy

If it's a problem on WW then it's a problem on Sorc too, and I see a lot of Sorcs.

Arunei · April 16

Overamera wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Overamera wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I would love a video showing prior to setup on both sides plus duel itself!

It wasn't a duel. We both stood still parsing each other like parsing a dummy, each rotating through offensive and defensive rotations. The goal was to test maximum DPS on WW and maximum HPS on my Sorc. As seen from the screenshots, WW sustained a 10.2k DPS in nearly 2 minutes of dueling, and I sustained 10k+ HPS.

In an actual duel that DPS would most likely be around 8.5k-9k (accounting for blocking and roll dodges), which is still an absurd amount. Keep in mind, WW is still missing the 33% WD modifier due to a bug.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Please also include the 'generic meta DK build' for comparison if you do this (Pyrebrand DK as you mentioned it is darn-close to the wolf spec you're getting hit by) so that we have something for reference as a base to compare to (I still hate that player skill and latency can cause discrepancy but it should be sufficient for highlighting these potential issues never the less.).

The generic meta build is just Zaan + Pyrebrand + Vate ice staff and the new DK class masteries. That one does around 8k DPS, but has more burst.

Both specs are currently overtuned on PTS. Interestingly enough, that DK spec cannot kill WW because they're stacking 40k+ HP.

Overamera wrote: »

Wuffy here clearly just dont want his fav playstyle nerfed. The damage WW is putting in PvP is ridiculous and clearly needs a change. @Wuffy stop demanding proof from others. Unless you go and duel React while he plays WW and you try to survive it and also try and kill him on a normal PvP build and show us video PROOF that WW isnt as strong as he says then clearly WW needs a nerf as everything posted points that WW is absolutely broken in PvP.

I'm sorry but no, just standing around hitting each other in a specific rotation without ACTUALLY dueling is NOT proof that WW is overperforming. You can't claim that treating each other like a dummy is any sort of actual testing like a real duel would be. Just like an actual dummy it doesn't take into effect actually moving around, blocking, CC, terrain, or anything else that would matter in a real fight.

And yes, we ARE allowed to demand proof that something is overperforming when that thing has been ass for so long and has only been in testing for a few days but people are already shouting for nerfs. Don't tell us not to ask for it, that only makes it seem like you're afraid of being proven wrong. Also dude has said several times iirc that they'd be happy to duel so I don't get the point in bringing that up. There has been no viable proof otherwise because again, a single duel isn't anywhere near enough of a sample size to base claims off of, ESPECIALLY if it wasn't even a real duel.

I've already seen multiple 10k dps cmx, so proof has already been shown lol. I never said he should stand there as a dummy, I literally said "DUEL". 10k DPS as a WW on dueling meta and it's already way higher than what normal classes (even reworked DK) in dueling meta for PVP is clear sample that it's OVERPERFORMING. Even as if they acted like test dummy.

Then you wouldn't mind sharing those combat metrics if you've seen so many, right? Like I said, without proof people can claim whatever they want to suit their argument. Claiming you've seen these isn't the same as posting the proof for everyone else to see as well.

That's why I said people need to be testing with various builds, both the WW AND the non-WW. Get actual video or combat stats proof and share it. That way everyone can see if WW IS the OP thing or if it's other things that need changing. Rather than acting like WW is 100% the problem for sure and not even considering the potential for other factors to be at play.

Because refusing to acknowledge other things might be contributing to a problem is how we get things nerfed into the ground. Again. And I'll reiterate my previous point; dueling is NOT all of PvP. It's one part of it, and all the other kinds of PvP can have you getting piled by numerous players. You can't try to balance for all of PvP because of how something performs in one instance of it.

Did you miss the 10k dps metrics already posted on this thread?

You mean from like...one or two duels that weren't even actual fights but were instead people standing around treating each other like dummies? Did YOU miss the part where I (and others now) have said that we can't call for nerfs on such a miniscule amount of data that doesn't even reflect actual fights? That's not anywhere enough to be a sample size.

We need multiple tests of multiple builds, both for the WW and for the person fighting them.

What we DON'T need is people treating parses on each other in one or two ""duels"" like it's all the proof anyone should want or need.

ETA that someone else posted some metrics showing their Stamsorc hitting around 8k. But even then, we don't know much about either build. Which is why we need people posting actual in-depth data about what they and their opponent are using, and it's why videos will be a LOT more clear and telling than just static images of CMX stats that don't tell anywhere near the whole story of each individual fight.

Dracane · April 16

xylena wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

The way I see it, main issue is the infinite healing/sustain provided by Conservation of Energy

If it's a problem on WW then it's a problem on Sorc too, and I see a lot of Sorcs.

It's a problem on Stam Sorc specifically. Even with 70k Magicka and Major Vitality on MagSorc, my shields evaporate before I have even finished the animation. I can't even survive my Warden partner spamming force shock and some dots at me.
So the intended playstyle of shielding up and being able to turn around and do a combo for a few moments is entirely gone.

I am shocked how much damage this game has from any source.

xylena · April 16

Arunei wrote: »

their Stamsorc hitting around 8k. But even then, we don't know much about either build

Hi, I'm that StamSorc. I'm not paid enough to make videos, but I can answer specific questions regarding the duels vs WW as to what they mean and what they don't, or fill in relevant missing information. Most of any CMX report or build sheet is irrelevant.

The criticism from other PvPers was that they are too short, but that is what happens when you do 8k dps in a duel. I've never seen 8k sustained in a long fight. I guess I could sustain it in an artificial parse but to me that is less significant than "can replicate 8sec kills at 8k dps."

Alchimiste1 · April 16

xylena wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I appreciate the real duels but this is just a sliver of the issue I have with the 'nerf-callers'

Take all the help you can get. My posts were directed at the PvP duelers who understand CMX and the meta. I don't want to see WW or Class Mastery nerfed. Meanwhile we've been screaming at the devs to do something about proc sets like Relequen for years.

Attempt at short explanation so as not to derail: information you don't see basically cancels out, you're left with 1 mostly optimal StamSorc vs 1 mostly optimal WW, both piloted reasonably well. About as evenly matched as we're gonna get in a game with a zillion variables.

Duels between high damage pressure DDs are typically short. Whoever gets the upper hand first is gonna win. You don't see 8k sustained because the opponent dies too fast. To get that you need an artifical controlled environment like Hoang having someone parse on his PvP tank.

TL;DR don't nerf WW, don't nerf Class Mastery, but do nerf Relequen in PvP.

disagree, the problem is more than just relequen. Its not even being used in some of the highest parsing builds

Alchimiste1 · April 16

@xylena_lazarow you know tbh I don't really play this game much anymore, if an over performing WW makes it to live and everyone starts running it, I simply won't be playing. I am just giving my honest and non bias opinion about the state of WW on pts. This is not me going out of my way to get WW nerfed because I hate certain players. It is simply me giving an opinion on what I think will better the health of the game in future patches.

Arunei · April 16

xylena wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

their Stamsorc hitting around 8k. But even then, we don't know much about either build

Hi, I'm that StamSorc. I'm not paid enough to make videos, but I can answer specific questions regarding the duels vs WW as to what they mean and what they don't, or fill in relevant missing information. Most of any CMX report or build sheet is irrelevant.

The criticism from other PvPers was that they are too short, but that is what happens when you do 8k dps in a duel. I've never seen 8k sustained in a long fight. I guess I could sustain it in an artificial parse but to me that is less significant than "can replicate 8sec kills at 8k dps."

Sadly no one is paid to make videos (unless they're the content creator people with ZOS but idk if they get paid or not actually lol), but they will offer a better picture of what's happening during duels and in PvP than just the CMX posts. That being said really any info that can be provided would be ideal, as more information is better than less.

Also people really do need to keep in mind that once again. Dueling is only PART of PvP. People need to be testing in other parts of PvP as well to get a better idea of what actually is and isn't a problem. What seems overpowered in dueling could turn out to hit like wet tissue when there are more than one enemy against a WW. This isn't aimed at you btw, it's just that it feels some people are deadset on pointing at potential overperforming in 1v1 duels and acting like that's how it's going to be in Cyro, IC, and BG as well.

Erickson9610 · April 16

Can we get access to our Weapon passives? Also, can we be allowed to use Skill Scrolls?

We know both of these would've worked in Werewolf form, but the methods to get them to work were deemed bugs. Is there any particular reason why we shouldn't be allowed to use these?

coop500 · April 16

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Can we get access to our Weapon passives? Also, can we be allowed to use Skill Scrolls?

We know both of these would've worked in Werewolf form, but the methods to get them to work were deemed bugs. Is there any particular reason why we shouldn't be allowed to use these?

Weapon passives would be SO nice, it's not fun losing some stats when turning.

Darkness734 · April 16

werewolves should definitely get weapon passives. without them they have to specialize in penetration which is annoying

xylena · April 17

Arunei wrote: »

Dueling is only PART of PvP. People need to be testing in other parts of PvP as well to get a better idea of what actually is and isn't a problem. What seems overpowered in dueling could turn out to hit like wet tissue when there are more than one enemy against a WW.

Well again I'm actually defending WW here and this is part of the reason. To do 8k dps vs WW meta build I pre buff, unload the ranged half of my rotation before the WW can touch me, tag with melee hits and Streak stun away before they can counter, knife throw from midrange where WW still can't hit me, close in for lethal melee damage with BfB or MDW.

What this means for open world: WW will rip apart players who sit still trying to mash their face into their heal button, but struggle against multiple ranged attackers, especially Sorcs, who can pretty much press Streak twice and now the WW does 0 dmg to them, a weakness so glaring that I could exploit it to do 8k dps (which is very high and not normal dueling dps).

@Alchimiste1 maybe new info can change my mind but I really don't think you need to worry about WW taking over. It's not god mode and its tactics are limited in OW situations. Like you said, I barely play this game, yet I could consistently beat 40k hp WW on 34k hp StamSorc. How come you draw the line at WW and not at Animal Assassins, machine gun range Sorcs, oops all DKs, etc...

I would maybe consider Conservation of Energy busted. The interaction with BfB is silly.

hoangdz · April 17

Arunei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I would love a video showing prior to setup on both sides plus duel itself!

It wasn't a duel. We both stood still parsing each other like parsing a dummy, each rotating through offensive and defensive rotations. The goal was to test maximum DPS on WW and maximum HPS on my Sorc. As seen from the screenshots, WW sustained a 10.2k DPS in nearly 2 minutes of dueling, and I sustained 10k+ HPS.

In an actual duel that DPS would most likely be around 8.5k-9k (accounting for blocking and roll dodges), which is still an absurd amount. Keep in mind, WW is still missing the 33% WD modifier due to a bug.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Please also include the 'generic meta DK build' for comparison if you do this (Pyrebrand DK as you mentioned it is darn-close to the wolf spec you're getting hit by) so that we have something for reference as a base to compare to (I still hate that player skill and latency can cause discrepancy but it should be sufficient for highlighting these potential issues never the less.).

The generic meta build is just Zaan + Pyrebrand + Vate ice staff and the new DK class masteries. That one does around 8k DPS, but has more burst.

Both specs are currently overtuned on PTS. Interestingly enough, that DK spec cannot kill WW because they're stacking 40k+ HP.

Overamera wrote: »

Wuffy here clearly just dont want his fav playstyle nerfed. The damage WW is putting in PvP is ridiculous and clearly needs a change. @Wuffy stop demanding proof from others. Unless you go and duel React while he plays WW and you try to survive it and also try and kill him on a normal PvP build and show us video PROOF that WW isnt as strong as he says then clearly WW needs a nerf as everything posted points that WW is absolutely broken in PvP.

I'm sorry but no, just standing around hitting each other in a specific rotation without ACTUALLY dueling is NOT proof that WW is overperforming. You can't claim that treating each other like a dummy is any sort of actual testing like a real duel would be. Just like an actual dummy it doesn't take into effect actually moving around, blocking, CC, terrain, or anything else that would matter in a real fight.

And yes, we ARE allowed to demand proof that something is overperforming when that thing has been ass for so long and has only been in testing for a few days but people are already shouting for nerfs. Don't tell us not to ask for it, that only makes it seem like you're afraid of being proven wrong. Also dude has said several times iirc that they'd be happy to duel so I don't get the point in bringing that up. There has been no viable proof otherwise because again, a single duel isn't anywhere near enough of a sample size to base claims off of, ESPECIALLY if it wasn't even a real duel.

I quite literally have no bandwidth to argue with you, not because I can’t provide evidence, but rather because I know exactly how this turns out. I post evidence like I always do, you people try to analyze and nitpick it, while providing nothing of your own, then patch goes live and threads start popping up CONFIRMING my original statement. It has happened with Hardened Ward Sorc and DK, and every single patch there is always people like you who will argue to the bone.

If you want video evidence, just come to Riften and duel us on PTS.

dark_hunterxmg · April 17

Only one player is doing that high dps in Riften. Everyone else is doing considerably less.
What's different?

hoangdz · April 17

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Only one player is doing that high dps in Riften. Everyone else is doing considerably less.
What's different?

They’re not as good and can’t take full advantage of WW? Doesn’t mean WW isn’t strong, it just means most people are not good

Celas_Dranacea · April 17

Personally …. Im not gonna say dueling is unimportant - I’m glad dueling is there for people and that there’s a community around it.

HOWEVER there are so many other factors at play in BGs, Cyrodil, and IC which is the majority of the PVP experience for most players. And in those instances werewolf will still be experiencing major drawbacks. So personally I’d like to focus more attention on these kind of more common PvP situations.

We still have to get into melee range to do damage and expose ourselves in that way in terms of front line fighting in BGs, getting hit by siege in Cyro, etc…. That’s all good.

We will not be able to purge, cross heal or cross shield, same as now on live. These are all things other one bar builds can do btw as others have stated.There is all sorts of utility that is closed to us. To really complete the werewolf kit we should have a scribed ability that provides these options but that’s not on the table for now. Fine.

Any group comprised of mostly werewolves facing a similar size group of cross healing / cross buffing and shielding players of any particular class will really have their work cut out for them. This is what it’s like now and it will be that way in the future. We will still be at a disadvantage. For us experienced ww players we accept the challenge but it can suck at times lol.

Imagine the current PTS patch were to go live - in a fight between 4 DKs vs 4 werewolves, I’d probably put my money on the 4 DKs don’t you think? The DKs can rotate various ultis and abilities for constant buffs and debuffs, chain shields, and cross-heal through pressure while sustaining resources using any abilities from their class + all other skill lines + gear + scribing. Meanwhile the werewolves are basically 4 strong individuals with no cross-healing, shielding, or real group utility save for what they can build in with gear, and a couple of buffs and debuffs that would be redundant to one another.

Heck, in the current state of ulti management, for any beserker wolf they will have trouble staying in form say in BG or Cyrodil when they are in combat but not in your face fighting every single second - say when they need to reposition around the battlefield. It’s already an issue in duels much more so in open world.

So all this is to say that least in 1v1 werewolf will have more of a fighting chance against meta builds than we currently have on live.

Sounds like a couple things like relequens and the sorc passives yall are talking about are overtuned perhaps and worth looking at, sure

But overall ZOS I think you guys are on the right track to make werewolf a bit more competitive! Still more work to do to achieve that!

I’d like to hear more thoughts about how this plays out in group vs group and open world settings. Some good comments on that front already

hoangdz · April 17

xylena wrote: »

I would maybe consider Conservation of Energy busted. The interaction with BfB is silly.

It is broken, but without it Sorc gets dumpstered by DKs and Wardens who are doing 7-8k sustained DPS. I'd say keep Conservation and buff the less ideal passives (NBs, Templars, etc).

We are now at a point of no return. DKs had their moments and will continue to have their moments. Let the other classes be brought up.

Dracane · April 17

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

I would maybe consider Conservation of Energy busted. The interaction with BfB is silly.

It is broken, but without it Sorc gets dumpstered by DKs and Wardens who are doing 7-8k sustained DPS. I'd say keep Conservation and buff the less ideal passives (NBs, Templars, etc).

We are now at a point of no return. DKs had their moments and will continue to have their moments. Let the other classes be brought up.

Exactly.

Dracane · April 17

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Personally …. Im not gonna say dueling is unimportant - I’m glad dueling is there for people and that there’s a community around it.

HOWEVER there are so many other factors at play in BGs, Cyrodil, and IC which is the majority of the PVP experience for most players. And in those instances werewolf will still be experiencing major drawbacks. So personally I’d like to focus more attention on these kind of more common PvP situations.

We still have to get into melee range to do damage and expose ourselves in that way in terms of front line fighting in BGs, getting hit by siege in Cyro, etc…. That’s all good.

We will not be able to purge, cross heal or cross shield, same as now on live. These are all things other one bar builds can do btw as others have stated.There is all sorts of utility that is closed to us. To really complete the werewolf kit we should have a scribed ability that provides these options but that’s not on the table for now. Fine.

Any group comprised of mostly werewolves facing a similar size group of cross healing / cross buffing and shielding players of any particular class will really have their work cut out for them. This is what it’s like now and it will be that way in the future. We will still be at a disadvantage. For us experienced ww players we accept the challenge but it can suck at times lol.

Imagine the current PTS patch were to go live - in a fight between 4 DKs vs 4 werewolves, I’d probably put my money on the 4 DKs don’t you think? The DKs can rotate various ultis and abilities for constant buffs and debuffs, chain shields, and cross-heal through pressure while sustaining resources using any abilities from their class + all other skill lines + gear + scribing. Meanwhile the werewolves are basically 4 strong individuals with no cross-healing, shielding, or real group utility save for what they can build in with gear, and a couple of buffs and debuffs that would be redundant to one another.

Heck, in the current state of ulti management, for any beserker wolf they will have trouble staying in form say in BG or Cyrodil when they are in combat but not in your face fighting every single second - say when they need to reposition around the battlefield. It’s already an issue in duels much more so in open world.

So all this is to say that least in 1v1 werewolf will have more of a fighting chance against meta builds than we currently have on live.

Sounds like a couple things like relequens and the sorc passives yall are talking about are overtuned perhaps and worth looking at, sure

But overall ZOS I think you guys are on the right track to make werewolf a bit more competitive! Still more work to do to achieve that!

I’d like to hear more thoughts about how this plays out in group vs group and open world settings. Some good comments on that front already

I love duelling, but I think it's just for sport. It does not matter beyond one's own ego. There are neither rewards nor any further impact for it. (Other than your ego suffering)

But it does inform us about some things. Many people run duelling builds in Battlegrounds and smallscale, and you will often find yourself in 1v1 scenarios. So it matters in some ways, but not immensly either.

dark_hunterxmg · April 17

hoangdz wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Only one player is doing that high dps in Riften. Everyone else is doing considerably less.
What's different?

They’re not as good and can’t take full advantage of WW? Doesn’t mean WW isn’t strong, it just means most people are not good

We're talking double the dps while using the same sets and class masteries. That player may be good, but the skill gap isn't that big.

xylena · April 17

hoangdz wrote: »

We are now at a point of no return. DKs had their moments and will continue to have their moments. Let the other classes be brought up.

So we finally agree

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

We're talking double the dps while using the same sets and class masteries. That player may be good, but the skill gap isn't that big.

Are we still talking about the 10k player dummy parse? The only duel I lost to the WW player I made a mistake and ate his whole rotation for 8k dps, same dps ceiling from DK and Sorc. Since I can do the same thing on my Sorc to beat the WW and others, this seems like the new standard.

If we don't want 8-9k dps and endless sustain to be the norm, we'd need to address the underlying inflated stats and busted sets, not nerf individual classes into empty husks.

Dracane · April 17

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

We are now at a point of no return. DKs had their moments and will continue to have their moments. Let the other classes be brought up.

So we finally agree

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

We're talking double the dps while using the same sets and class masteries. That player may be good, but the skill gap isn't that big.

Are we still talking about the 10k player dummy parse? The only duel I lost to the WW player I made a mistake and ate his whole rotation for 8k dps, same dps ceiling from DK and Sorc. Since I can do the same thing on my Sorc to beat the WW and others, this seems like the new standard.

If we don't want 8-9k dps and endless sustain to be the norm, we'd need to address the underlying inflated stats and busted sets, not nerf individual classes into empty husks.

I really wonder how Stamsorc does all this DPS whilst having 4 hots and 33k armor and 34k health. I mean what do you even use to still have high DPS? If I do this on MagSorc I have no offense left.

xylena · April 17

Dracane wrote: »

I really wonder how Stamsorc does all this DPS whilst having 4 hots and 33k armor and 34k health. I mean what do you even use to still have high DPS?

My builds are tuned much more offensively than Hoang. I'm generally around mid 30k hp and mid 20k armor with cp investment into crit resist and % mitigation. Conservation of Energy and Dark Deal carry resources. Blood Magic (via Conservation) and Surge are such powerful pseudo-HOT effects that I only seem to need Vigor and Dark Deal on top of those.

Rest of build is offense and speed. New Shattered Paths Signet + Class Masteries like Static Reverb finally have pressure competitive with burst. I can hit 8k on both the Serpent's Disdain + BfB vamp version, and the MDW + Maarselok mortal version. Both include Vate Inferno back bar and Dragon's Appetite body. Most parts beyond that are standard meta, or interchangeable.

It's not just build though, you need to strike first and perfectly land your entire rotation while eating or avoiding whatever your opponent is throwing at you, which means perfect positioning, effective block weaving and roll canceling, and dynamically adjusting your rotation. I also can't sit there being parsed on like Hoang, so tactically I'm either killing, dying, or Streaking.

JimT722 · April 17

I will say so far questing as a werewolf has been a massively more enjoyable experience. the model is great. the animations feel nice. This rework has been great mechanically. I can't really speak on balance but gameplay feel seems spot on. werewolf went from really annoying to something I would be excited to play when it hits live.

noblecron · April 17

* Do the refreshed abilities correctly portray the mechanics of the ability?

They really do. They're amazing. They feel great.

* Are there any key Werewolf changes that you enjoyed?

I enjoy everything about it except for some minor nitpicks

* Are there any key Werewolf changes that did not feel great?

The camera angle feels a bit odd but idk if it's becuase I'm not used to the increased size or not

* Is there anything else you would like to share about the Werewolf changes?

I'm not the biggest fan of the glowing runes but I get the reasoning. The look of the white werewolf is not my favorite look but I wouldn't want it redone. Maybe another varient of white wolf skin with a black nose and darker skin tone?. I'd also love more customization options for ww and maybe at some point different werecreature skins all together.

As for the foot bug all I can think of is my werewolf going to her rp partners and be like

"I tried to give someone toes for teeth send halp!"

dark_hunterxmg · April 17

xylena wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

We're talking double the dps while using the same sets and class masteries. That player may be good, but the skill gap isn't that big.

Are we still talking about the 10k player dummy parse? The only duel I lost to the WW player I made a mistake and ate his whole rotation for 8k dps, same dps ceiling from DK and Sorc. Since I can do the same thing on my Sorc to beat the WW and others, this seems like the new standard.

If we don't want 8-9k dps and endless sustain to be the norm, we'd need to address the underlying inflated stats and busted sets, not nerf individual classes into empty husks.

Yes that player. It's not a dummy parse. I saw it happen in actual fights.

xylena · April 17

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Yes that player. It's not a dummy parse. I saw it happen in actual fights.

Okay that must be why he said "StamSorc can't break 8k dps" because he runs 43k hp 35k armor tank builds that can heal 10k hps but can't threaten the WW. He's skilled enough to adapt, a more offensive strat that aims to win the dps race would probably be more effective. That's good for the game if the meta demands players end fights, not indefinitely turtle and reset.

Dracane · April 17

xylena wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I really wonder how Stamsorc does all this DPS whilst having 4 hots and 33k armor and 34k health. I mean what do you even use to still have high DPS?

My builds are tuned much more offensively than Hoang. I'm generally around mid 30k hp and mid 20k armor with cp investment into crit resist and % mitigation. Conservation of Energy and Dark Deal carry resources. Blood Magic (via Conservation) and Surge are such powerful pseudo-HOT effects that I only seem to need Vigor and Dark Deal on top of those.

Rest of build is offense and speed. New Shattered Paths Signet + Class Masteries like Static Reverb finally have pressure competitive with burst. I can hit 8k on both the Serpent's Disdain + BfB vamp version, and the MDW + Maarselok mortal version. Both include Vate Inferno back bar and Dragon's Appetite body. Most parts beyond that are standard meta, or interchangeable.

It's not just build though, you need to strike first and perfectly land your entire rotation while eating or avoiding whatever your opponent is throwing at you, which means perfect positioning, effective block weaving and roll canceling, and dynamically adjusting your rotation. I also can't sit there being parsed on like Hoang, so tactically I'm either killing, dying, or Streaking.

Thank you for this thourough exposee. You have given me much to think about.

hoangdz · April 17

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Only one player is doing that high dps in Riften. Everyone else is doing considerably less.
What's different?

They’re not as good and can’t take full advantage of WW? Doesn’t mean WW isn’t strong, it just means most people are not good

We're talking double the dps while using the same sets and class masteries. That player may be good, but the skill gap isn't that big.

The skill gap is that big if they are using the same sets and class masteries. I’ve given people my Sorc build to the exact detail and they still do 1k-1.5k less DPS than me. It all comes down to perfect weaving and good understanding of dueling rotations, which takes hours and hours of doing 1v1s.

hoangdz · April 17

xylena wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Yes that player. It's not a dummy parse. I saw it happen in actual fights.

Okay that must be why he said "StamSorc can't break 8k dps" because he runs 43k hp 35k armor tank builds that can heal 10k hps but can't threaten the WW. He's skilled enough to adapt, a more offensive strat that aims to win the dps race would probably be more effective. That's good for the game if the meta demands players end fights, not indefinitely turtle and reset.

The WW in question is either Pelican or Strepsel. Not a chance anyone here is killing them, considering they have 10k+ DPS, 40k+ HP, and 30k+ armor.

You need 43k HP to tank that, which means losing damage.

xylena · April 17

hoangdz wrote: »

The skill gap is that big

The WW in question is either Pelican or Strepsel

You need 43k HP to tank that

So what happens when the S+ Tier duelers fight each other? Do they bring tank builds or do they try to race dps? Is Pelican on WW that much better than Pelican on StamSorc?

Why would I try to tank WW damage? I can beat average meta WW player by Streaking, avoiding their hits, and pressuring from range. They don't do 10k if they can't hit you. If I don't beat Pelican that's because he's a better dueler than me.