The critter massacre in the challenge zones

amig186 · April 13

Come on George, with 50 thousand men getting killed a week in Cyrodiil, who's going to miss a horker?

GloatingSwine · April 13

Critters are not filtered out by the "prevent attacking innocents" option, ergo every single one of them is guilty as the devil himself.

Four_Fingers · April 13

Why can't we kill birds? 😁

Taarente · April 13

I agree with the OP. I went to wrothgar and found the whole thing pretty revolting. I did take on some actual enemies but got bored of that and will consign this quest to the bin. Points not needed. If you want to say it’s just pixels in game well you’re just a collection of atoms, go figure.

AScarlato · April 13

I'm just skipping this one. It's made for an unpleasant experience IMO.

I'm also a bit hypersensitive to animal cruelty, even fictional depictions against pixils. I actively avoid killing non-aggressive animals and usually try to escape from aggressive wildlife unless I have no option due to a quest.

The level of sensitivity is on people like me and OP, so I'm just avoiding the area.

On top of that, I don't find killing 1000 overland mobs fun or a good use of life, so *shrug* No big loss.

Syldras · April 13

Taarente wrote: »

If you want to say it’s just pixels in game well you’re just a collection of atoms, go figure.

Do we really need to discuss the difference between real, sentient living and breathing beings and fictional non-sentient non-living creatures now?

Also, @Malyore, again a wonderful post of you that I can fully agree with!

BretonMage · April 13

Syldras wrote: »

Taarente wrote: »

If you want to say it’s just pixels in game well you’re just a collection of atoms, go figure.

Do we really need to discuss the difference between real, sentient living and breathing beings and fictional non-sentient non-living creatures now?

I think the point is that they're both reductive statements.

twisttop138 · April 13

Maybe it would be better if no one judged anyone else for their take on this task. I killed anything that moved, but if that's something you don't like, more power to you. I think @AScarlato is 100% right. If you don't like it, it's totally ok to skip it.

LalMirchi · April 13

Syldras wrote: »

Taarente wrote: »

If you want to say it’s just pixels in game well you’re just a collection of atoms, go figure.

Do we really need to discuss the difference between real, sentient living and breathing beings and fictional non-sentient non-living creatures now?

Also, @Malyore, again a wonderful post of you that I can fully agree with!

These are very relevant viewpoints if one is to take immersion into account. Killing defenceless creatures is not worthy of our supposedly heroic characters.

Syldras · April 13

LalMirchi wrote: »

These are very relevant viewpoints if one is to take immersion into account. Killing defenceless creatures is not worthy of our supposedly heroic characters.

The heroic murder cultist, necromancer or daedra worshipper?

For me, immersion also matters. If have very friendly and peaceful characters who would kill no one if they could just avoid it. I also have ruthless mercenary or bandit types for whom a life doesn't matter much. I have a Bosmer character who hunts rabbits and deer for food. I also have a Telvanni who loves every random vvardvark or nix hound more than any human (except for Azandar perhaps, but that's a different thing) and would never hurt any of these animals, but with humans, he's not so squeamish.

It's an open world in which every kind of character can be played, and people do exactly that.

twisttop138 · April 13

Syldras wrote: »

LalMirchi wrote: »

These are very relevant viewpoints if one is to take immersion into account. Killing defenceless creatures is not worthy of our supposedly heroic characters.

The heroic murder cultist, necromancer or daedra worshipper?

For me, immersion also matters. If have very friendly and peaceful characters who would kill no one if they could just avoid it. I also have ruthless mercenary or bandit types for whom a life doesn't matter much. I have a Bosmer character who hunts rabbits and deer for food. I also have a Telvanni who loves every random vvardvark or nix hound more than any human (except for Azandar perhaps, but that's a different thing) and would never hurt any of these animals, but with humans, he's not so squeamish.

It's an open world in which every kind of character can be played, and people do exactly that.

I smell an interesting story. A telvanni who loves Azander who in turn hates mushrooms.

Rishikesa108 · April 13

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Why can't we kill birds? 😁

some birds are killable, unfortunatly

Syldras · April 13

twisttop138 wrote: »

I smell an interesting story. A telvanni who loves Azander who in turn hates mushrooms.

It's complicated.

BardokRedSnow · April 13

Bosmer eat their own and others as cannibals, dunmer, altmer are incredibly racist, and even have slavery. Its worse in tes III Morrowind. You walk in Auridon at the college and the guy says "The first thing you must know is that your race is useless. Only then may you be of use to us." - paraphrasing. And that list goes on and on for other races in tamriel.

This isn't the series you think it is, there is conflict and chaos, and this is what keeps the world interesting.

In case this post is serious as was said before and not satire, no idea. If it hurts your sensibilities, its temporary and only in specific areas, ones that had very little traffic of players prior in comparison to now.

Rishikesa108 · April 13

twisttop138 wrote: »

Maybe it would be better if no one judged anyone else for their take on this task. I killed anything that moved, but if that's something you don't like, more power to you. I think @AScarlato is 100% right. If you don't like it, it's totally ok to skip it.

If you consider carefully, I never blamed those who go killing critters in those areas. Everyone is free to play as they see fit. However, I strongly advised ZOS NOT to ENCOURAGE mass killings of innocent critters with events, quests, or challenges like these.
This was the purpose of my post.
Just to clarify.

BardokRedSnow · April 13

Syldras wrote: »

One complaint I could understand is that a zone where basically everything is lying around dead or despawned most of the time for three months now, might not be the most immersive experience for someone who has newly gained access to this zone just now. Random animals are part of the landscape, commoner npcs contribute to town atmosphere, so if everything is already killed - it looks empty.

I think this is countered by the presence of actual players and wondering what the hecks going on here, which is exciting in an mmo, its like an event area.

Plus, the animals respawn very quickly.

Taarente · April 13

Syldras wrote: »

Taarente wrote: »

If you want to say it’s just pixels in game well you’re just a collection of atoms, go figure.

Do we really need to discuss the difference between real, sentient living and breathing beings and fictional non-sentient non-living creatures now?

Also, @Malyore, again a wonderful post of you that I can fully agree with!

Ah I should have remembered that my inconvenient opinion isn’t what you wanted to hear. Oh well better luck next time.

Syldras · April 13

It's not inconvenient, it just makes no sense to me personally. If I wouldn't see any difference between creatures in this game and real living beings, I wouldn't play this game - where one kills dozens of people every day - at all.

Cin_Vhetin · April 14

With a little objectivity, the whole idea of having scruples about using animations to disassemble other pixels (in the shapes of Nixads, daedra, minotaurs, etc) is absurd when the entire premise of this game is slaughter of one kind or another, the stories are violent in the extreme and to level is to slaughter something. This whole discussion thread appears to be troll bait.

AScarlato · April 14

Cin_Vhetin wrote: »

With a little objectivity, the whole idea of having scruples about using animations to disassemble other pixels (in the shapes of Nixads, daedra, minotaurs, etc) is absurd when the entire premise of this game is slaughter of one kind or another, the stories are violent in the extreme and to level is to slaughter something. This whole discussion thread appears to be troll bait.

Some people just have different triggers, and that doesn't make a topic bait. That said, if something doesn't go beyond what a general audience would find upsetting but triggers you personally, then it's up to you to remove yourself from them rather than asking thousands of strangers to accommodate you.

In this issue there is a difference between cute non-aggressive critters, and an aggressive combatant like a minotaur.

I said above that animal cruelty is a specific trigger to me, but I don't expect them to make all animals untargetable or be upset if others want to kill them in a game. I know they aren't real, but that doesn't mean that witnessing even fictional depictions can't be upsetting for some.

In this situation, I understand I am outside the normal so I'm just not going into the zones while this activity is popular. I mean, I feel bad even accidentally clicking on butterflies since it apparently kills them to turn them into bait.

Contraptions · April 14

The solution to this is clearly to make the squirrels and rabbits attack on sight.

It was only self defence, you see.

Rishikesa108 · April 14

Cin_Vhetin wrote: »

With a little objectivity, the whole idea of having scruples about using animations to disassemble other pixels (in the shapes of Nixads, daedra, minotaurs, etc) is absurd when the entire premise of this game is slaughter of one kind or another, the stories are violent in the extreme and to level is to slaughter something. This whole discussion thread appears to be troll bait.

If we look closely, following your reasoning based exclusively on cold logic, it's also absurd that someone would spend real money to buy goods made of mere pixels, such as a hairstyle for a virtual doll, which is precisely what our characters are.
This type of game is completely based on appearance, on the pretense that these virtual pixels are real.
Of course, each of us knows what they really are, but we play with a sort of auto-suggestion, pretending they're real.
That's the fun; otherwise, if we always applied cold logic that only sees pixels, no one would have fun anymore.
Even children, when they play with toy cars or dolls, pretend that's reality... and that's how they have fun.
These are games for adults, but the principle is the same: you play by pretending it's reality, immersing yourself in the situation.
That's why the reasoning of those who want to apply cold logic is flawed.
We cannot apply logic only when it is convenient to justify an action, but we cannot apply it when we get excited about having purchased or obtained a virtual mount or a nice outfit for our characters.

BretonMage · April 14

AScarlato wrote: »

Cin_Vhetin wrote: »

With a little objectivity, the whole idea of having scruples about using animations to disassemble other pixels (in the shapes of Nixads, daedra, minotaurs, etc) is absurd when the entire premise of this game is slaughter of one kind or another, the stories are violent in the extreme and to level is to slaughter something. This whole discussion thread appears to be troll bait.

Some people just have different triggers, and that doesn't make a topic bait. That said, if something doesn't go beyond what a general audience would find upsetting but triggers you personally, then it's up to you to remove yourself from them rather than asking thousands of strangers to accommodate you.

In this issue there is a difference between cute non-aggressive critters, and an aggressive combatant like a minotaur.

I said above that animal cruelty is a specific trigger to me, but I don't expect them to make all animals untargetable or be upset if others want to kill them in a game. I know they aren't real, but that doesn't mean that witnessing even fictional depictions can't be upsetting for some.

In this situation, I understand I am outside the normal so I'm just not going into the zones while this activity is popular. I mean, I feel bad even accidentally clicking on butterflies since it apparently kills them to turn them into bait.

There are a number of people who commented on this tbh, not just here. People don't generally kill the innocent critters either, I only saw it in Wrothgar on the first couple of days of that challenge. I'd argue that it's well within the norm not to want to kill innocents, even if not everyone is triggered by it.

Cin_Vhetin · April 14

Rishikesa108 wrote: »

Cin_Vhetin wrote: »

With a little objectivity, the whole idea of having scruples about using animations to disassemble other pixels (in the shapes of Nixads, daedra, minotaurs, etc) is absurd when the entire premise of this game is slaughter of one kind or another, the stories are violent in the extreme and to level is to slaughter something. This whole discussion thread appears to be troll bait.

If we look closely, following your reasoning based exclusively on cold logic, it's also absurd that someone would spend real money to buy goods made of mere pixels, such as a hairstyle for a virtual doll, which is precisely what our characters are.
This type of game is completely based on appearance, on the pretense that these virtual pixels are real.
Of course, each of us knows what they really are, but we play with a sort of auto-suggestion, pretending they're real.
That's the fun; otherwise, if we always applied cold logic that only sees pixels, no one would have fun anymore.
Even children, when they play with toy cars or dolls, pretend that's reality... and that's how they have fun.
These are games for adults, but the principle is the same: you play by pretending it's reality, immersing yourself in the situation.
That's why the reasoning of those who want to apply cold logic is flawed.
We cannot apply logic only when it is convenient to justify an action, but we cannot apply it when we get excited about having purchased or obtained a virtual mount or a nice outfit for our characters.

You misunderstand my statement, but I’m not going to feed the trolls anymore, it's not worth it. No harm intended. Have fun 😊

Cin_Vhetin · April 14

AScarlato wrote: »

Cin_Vhetin wrote: »

With a little objectivity, the whole idea of having scruples about using animations to disassemble other pixels (in the shapes of Nixads, daedra, minotaurs, etc) is absurd when the entire premise of this game is slaughter of one kind or another, the stories are violent in the extreme and to level is to slaughter something. This whole discussion thread appears to be troll bait.

Some people just have different triggers, and that doesn't make a topic bait. That said, if something doesn't go beyond what a general audience would find upsetting but triggers you personally, then it's up to you to remove yourself from them rather than asking thousands of strangers to accommodate you.

In this issue there is a difference between cute non-aggressive critters, and an aggressive combatant like a minotaur.

I said above that animal cruelty is a specific trigger to me, but I don't expect them to make all animals untargetable or be upset if others want to kill them in a game. I know they aren't real, but that doesn't mean that witnessing even fictional depictions can't be upsetting for some.

In this situation, I understand I am outside the normal so I'm just not going into the zones while this activity is popular. I mean, I feel bad even accidentally clicking on butterflies since it apparently kills them to turn them into bait.

I'm sorry it strikes you so hard, I know it doesn't feel good. Like I said before I felt the same way for the first 5 years I played ESO. I even hated grabbing torchbugs (eww) on accident.

aetherix8 · April 14

Arunei wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

I'm going to assume this is a joke post/satire or something, but in case it isn't...I hate to say this, but it's a game. If you don't want to kill animals you don't have to, but let's not try to impose real-world morals on a video game or claim that 'killing' pixels on a screen is 'slaughter'. Also you already seem to know that mobs in Delves/Dungeons not counting is a bug, so the whole "is this fair" thing is kind of a moot point anyway.

If we feel our sensibilities stung by senseless slaughter, it's because it's natural for people with functioning empathy to feel for the suffering of others, and often even when we know the others aren't real. I mean, if games are "just games", what's the point of feeling moved by the characters of Baldur's Gate or Expedition 33? Or, for that matter, Romeo and Juliet?

Not saying I'd actually condemn the players who kill innocents in the game, but it's not pleasant to see either.

That whole "people with functioning empathy" line is a hell of a statement, because it implies people who kill non-living things in a game somehow lack it. I'm one of the most empathatic people I know, I cry super easily when others are upset or during sad scenes in games or movies. I abhor real-world violence and it gets me REALLY mad when I hear about things like animals or people being abused or killed. But there is a big difference between getting emotionally attached to characters and getting emotionally attached to Random NPC Animal #5,301.

Rishikesa108 wrote: »

"It's just a game" someone says.
Of course.
But... why cats and dogs are unkillable in the game... is it not a game for those kind of animals?
You do not find any child in the game... why???
So please, don't say things that contradict the evidence, please.

Because it IS just a game. It is fiction. It is not real. There are no real animals being harmed or killed. There is no real suffering. It is not real.

Dogs and cats aren't killable because ESO is based in the United States, where those animals are pets and NOT game or livestock animals. But all the animals you CAN kill? They are actually hunted irl (the ones that exist irl anyway) for food and other things, or are livestock animals that are raised as food or for leather, milk, and so on. Pigs, goats, squirrels, rabbits, elk, deer, etc are all animals that get hunted or raised as livestock.

What does children not being in the game have to do with anything? The answer is because they didn't feel like coding them in but that isn't some sort of gotcha point at all. They didn't add children not because of morality but because it would have been extra coding. The things you tried to bring up aren't evidence at all and contradict nothing.

Also as other people have mentioned, there are numerous recipes that call for meat of different kinds. What's the difference between someone running around killing animals to farm mats (because they also tend to drop things like Guts as someone else mentioned) and someone killing for any other reason? It's not like it's 'wasting' the animal, because again, it isn't real.

aetherix8 wrote: »

Rishikesa108 wrote: »

1,000 kills for the seasonal challenge in three designated areas. In dungeons/delves, mobs don't count, but in the overland, all you need to do is kill a harmless little animal with a light attack (they have 1 hp) to boost your score.
Does that seem fair to you?
I obviously refrain from this senseless hunt for squirrels, deer, or the cute little Nixads, but I'm outraged by the obscene spectacle of thousands of players mercilessly crushing everything that moves. It disgusts me.
But what was the need for that?
This game often stands out for protecting certain minorities, and I'm pleased. Why not protect the sensibilities of those who oppose the killing of innocent little animals?
What demonstration of skill or strength is firing a light attack at a hare or a heron?
I hope ZOS reconsiders, and along with the promised fix to the zone dungeons/delves, that ZOS does not continue to encourage this needless slaughter.

The moment I saw “foes” and “Wrothgar” I knew exactly what I would be doing for the next 1 hour or so. I picked a nice spot with at least 7 squirrels, some goats and rabbits, deer and those cute little echatere along with bears, mammoths, and some other creatures. I completed this challenge fairly fast. And I saw countless players passing by and deleting all those bears, mammoths and adult echatere, while I was making sure nobody notices how much critter spawns in this one spot.

I must admit that there is something disturbing in these mass killings “challenges”.
It is indeed slightly aggravating to witness so much violence and death. The massacre of those majestic mammoths was the most difficult to watch for me personally.

Now, we rush through this challenge in order to unlock the next tome page. But I would prefer these challenges to be about killing “enemies” instead of “foes”. “Enemies” exclude critter, afaik. This category only includes creatures that attack players who come too close.

If it upset you that much why in the world would you just sit there watching people do it then? If it was disturbing and bothered you that much for non-living animals (which isn't even graphic at all, there's no blood or organs or anything), then go to another zone instead of spending all that time there.

If you don't want to kill animals for Challenges, then don't. But don't ask for the option to be taken from everyone because of something you dislike. Once again, let's not impose real-world morals onto a video game.

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Can someone explain why ‘foes’ in *** dungeons & delves don’t count?

That is the more relevant point.

It's a bug currently that mobs in Delves and Dungeons aren't counting towards the Challenge, they're aware of it and it should have been added to the list of bugs by now.

Lol so much jumping to conclusions. If an activity causes a sense of uneasiness players can complain about it, whether you like it or not. It might be just a game or just pixels, but it is also a reflection of the real world, and the brain doesn’t necessarily make this distinction between real and virtual (that’s why some people harassed in virtual environments suffer as much as if they were harassed IRL).

I still prefer “enemies” rather than “foes”. This challenge would be less trivial if it were excluding critter.

LootAllTheStuff · April 14

Cin_Vhetin wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Cin_Vhetin wrote: »

With a little objectivity, the whole idea of having scruples about using animations to disassemble other pixels (in the shapes of Nixads, daedra, minotaurs, etc) is absurd when the entire premise of this game is slaughter of one kind or another, the stories are violent in the extreme and to level is to slaughter something. This whole discussion thread appears to be troll bait.

Some people just have different triggers, and that doesn't make a topic bait. That said, if something doesn't go beyond what a general audience would find upsetting but triggers you personally, then it's up to you to remove yourself from them rather than asking thousands of strangers to accommodate you.

In this issue there is a difference between cute non-aggressive critters, and an aggressive combatant like a minotaur.

I said above that animal cruelty is a specific trigger to me, but I don't expect them to make all animals untargetable or be upset if others want to kill them in a game. I know they aren't real, but that doesn't mean that witnessing even fictional depictions can't be upsetting for some.

In this situation, I understand I am outside the normal so I'm just not going into the zones while this activity is popular. I mean, I feel bad even accidentally clicking on butterflies since it apparently kills them to turn them into bait.

I'm sorry it strikes you so hard, I know it doesn't feel good. Like I said before I felt the same way for the first 5 years I played ESO. I even hated grabbing torchbugs (eww) on accident.

Mirri doesn't like it, either. Which is annoying when you really weren't trying to grab the insect at all!.

AScarlato · April 14

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

Cin_Vhetin wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Cin_Vhetin wrote: »

With a little objectivity, the whole idea of having scruples about using animations to disassemble other pixels (in the shapes of Nixads, daedra, minotaurs, etc) is absurd when the entire premise of this game is slaughter of one kind or another, the stories are violent in the extreme and to level is to slaughter something. This whole discussion thread appears to be troll bait.

Some people just have different triggers, and that doesn't make a topic bait. That said, if something doesn't go beyond what a general audience would find upsetting but triggers you personally, then it's up to you to remove yourself from them rather than asking thousands of strangers to accommodate you.

In this issue there is a difference between cute non-aggressive critters, and an aggressive combatant like a minotaur.

I said above that animal cruelty is a specific trigger to me, but I don't expect them to make all animals untargetable or be upset if others want to kill them in a game. I know they aren't real, but that doesn't mean that witnessing even fictional depictions can't be upsetting for some.

In this situation, I understand I am outside the normal so I'm just not going into the zones while this activity is popular. I mean, I feel bad even accidentally clicking on butterflies since it apparently kills them to turn them into bait.

I'm sorry it strikes you so hard, I know it doesn't feel good. Like I said before I felt the same way for the first 5 years I played ESO. I even hated grabbing torchbugs (eww) on accident.

Mirri doesn't like it, either. Which is annoying when you really weren't trying to grab the insect at all!.

Sometimes they kind of just fly in front of what you are looting haha.

Syldras · April 14

Not everyone immerses when playing ESO. I'm, personally, a roleplayer, but there are people who couldn't care less for how their character looks like or what name it has, since for them it's just a game token they control, and their focus while playing the game is combat, for example. It's possible to play and enjoy games without immersing into them. Or does someone who plays Tetris imagines they control huge blocks falling from the sky, and someone who plays chess imagines big battles and falling towers? Of course not. A game can also be played with a focus on reaction and dexterity, or on strategy.

And even people who immerse might not immerse all the time. I immerse when I play through stories. But when doing chores? Surely not. I don't even want to put much thought into why my character needs to chop 90 wood nodes now, to get some currency - for an invisible bazaar - by who knows whom.

A design problem is if people mow down whole landscapes for a chore (and I don't blame them for it, because it's the task), while other people want to roleplay in an immersive way and then just come across dead animals and murdered people everywhere. Before Solstice at least, every npc in towns had some random dialogue lines, contributing to atmosphere and sometimes lore. That's all missing if someone does a roleplay/story playthrough while everyone is dead in a town.

Vulkunne · April 14

Rishikesa108 wrote: »

1,000 kills for the seasonal challenge in three designated areas. In dungeons/delves, mobs don't count, but in the overland, all you need to do is kill a harmless little animal with a light attack (they have 1 hp) to boost your score.
Does that seem fair to you?
I obviously refrain from this senseless hunt for squirrels, deer, or the cute little Nixads, but I'm outraged by the obscene spectacle of thousands of players mercilessly crushing everything that moves. It disgusts me.
But what was the need for that?
This game often stands out for protecting certain minorities, and I'm pleased. Why not protect the sensibilities of those who oppose the killing of innocent little animals?
What demonstration of skill or strength is firing a light attack at a hare or a heron?
I hope ZOS reconsiders, and along with the promised fix to the zone dungeons/delves, that ZOS does not continue to encourage this needless slaughter.

I agree OP. Wow, that's just awful. But it doesn't surprise me any.