The disparity in points awarded is a problem with the new system, yeah. Especially when you only have a small number of re-rolls and it's all rng based. I tried to roll better ones, but it actually got worse and I got stuck with a selection of very low point / boring chores.

If they want to keep the points totals different based on the difficulty of the tasks, I get that... but please give us more rolls, or some choices (like being able to specifically roll for easy or difficult tasks; also re-rolled tasks shouldn't immediately appear again). Players who complete all their tasks should not randomly finish the week with a huge point difference.

I'm gonna quote a post from a discord from a person who's better at math than me because I think it will help ease a few worries:

18k tome points needed to unlock all pages up to page 10
another 2k tome points for both bonus pages (but the bonus pages only give consumable items and in-game currencies, no collectibles or trade bars, so not really necessary)

non-premium collectibles cost: 4600 tome points
non-premium trade bars cost: 3450 tome points
non-premium total: 8050 tome points

premium collectibles cost: 9700 tome points (!!!)
premium trade bars cost: 400 tome points
premium total: 10100 tome points

non-premium + premium total: 18150 tome points

========================================

14 weeks of challenges, 5 challenges per week, not including seasonal event injections (anniversary was a 1500 one-off), plus the daily login (99 × 15 = 1485)

lowest challenge i've seen seems to be 6 × 60 = 360 (396 for ESO+)
highest challenge i've seen seems to be 3 × 200 = 600 (660 for ESO+)

lowest weekly estimate = 360 × 5 × 14 = 25200 (27720)
highest weekly estimate = 600 × 5 × 14 = 42000 (46200)

I think the system is designed for you to do tasks you want to and even the lowest value will easily go over what is needed if you are playing regularly. I do understand the worries though and we won't fully know for certain until we see how this whole season plays out and this alongside the event fragment rng does go into the issue of perceived fairness and systems that mean well but feel bad for the player.

I also know Night Market on pts and other events should also have an additional payout of tome points. Night Market's was earn x points in the Night Market so events will add to the seasonal section of challenges.

Emeratis wrote: »

I'm gonna quote a post from a discord from a person who's better at math than me because I think it will help ease a few worries:

18k tome points needed to unlock all pages up to page 10
another 2k tome points for both bonus pages (but the bonus pages only give consumable items and in-game currencies, no collectibles or trade bars, so not really necessary)

non-premium collectibles cost: 4600 tome points
non-premium trade bars cost: 3450 tome points
non-premium total: 8050 tome points

premium collectibles cost: 9700 tome points (!!!)
premium trade bars cost: 400 tome points
premium total: 10100 tome points

non-premium + premium total: 18150 tome points

========================================

14 weeks of challenges, 5 challenges per week, not including seasonal event injections (anniversary was a 1500 one-off), plus the daily login (99 × 15 = 1485)

lowest challenge i've seen seems to be 6 × 60 = 360 (396 for ESO+)
highest challenge i've seen seems to be 3 × 200 = 600 (660 for ESO+)

lowest weekly estimate = 360 × 5 × 14 = 25200 (27720)
highest weekly estimate = 600 × 5 × 14 = 42000 (46200)

The general gist of this is correct but at the very least they missed the crates in the Bonus pages which I would list in collectibles.

Emeratis wrote: »

...
I also know Night Market on pts and other events should also have an additional payout of tome points. Night Market's was earn x points in the Night Market so events will add to the seasonal section of challenges.

Yeah, if you happen to play with a bunch of friends. But for the vast majority of players this last desperate attempt to make ESO a proper MMO by forcing group play in overland will be a deal breaker.

My two-nickels' worth (because we don't do pennies anymore) is that there are more than sufficient points available to unlock every page in the Tome and buy every item, and probably without opening a single point cache.

Assuming lowest payout weeklies (seems to be 360 points each) over the length of the Tome (14 weeks, but the last week of this Tome will only be a couple of days), is 25,200 points, and that's not counting the login challenge, which is up to 1440 points for those of us who grabbed the last 300 Trade Bars for Jester's and up to 1455 points for everyone else. Plus the 1500 for getting 50 Anniversary boxes. Plus whatever other seasonal challenges come along (Night Market and Zeal, anyone?).

The total cost of everything in the free tier is a bit more than 15K and the cost of everything in the tome is a bit more than 31K, but the Premium Tome will persist beyond the end of the season and it's not like those rewards are going away.

Short-term thinking probably generates a lot of "why more points for this person than that person?" type of questions, but long-term thinking should lead to "what happened to all my unspent Tome Points?"

If you manage to unlock those last two pages and are not Premium, you're going to lose about 3K Tome Points at the end of the season because there's nothing to spend them on (you bought everything) and only 2K points will carry over to the next Tome. If you are Premium and are hustling for every possible point, you will probably end up within that 2K carry-over without touching any point caches, but your Tome isn't going anywhere.

There are still 13 weeks to run on this Tome. The idea that someone got more points worth of challenges this week than someone else is pretty small potatoes.

What if they just split the tasks to different categories by difficulty, and you get one of each category to do? So, if you reroll the first task (the easy one) you'll get a similary easy task that pays exactly the same, and if you reroll the last task (the difficult one) you'll get a similarly difficult task that pays the same? Total payout for a fully completed card would be the same for all players, but the tasks would still have some variety.

Yeah my first weeklies were all the lowest value challenges possible, as I discovered after seeing others’ points. I felt kind of shafted.

But after doing them and the seasonal one, I already have enough points to buy everything I actually want from the Tome. Just have to earn more points to access the pages I guess.

I have the feeling I’m going to end up with more points than I know what to do with.

Arunei wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Czeri wrote: »

I think it's too early to tell if the varying number of tome points in the challenges will matter all that much. For one thing, plenty of the rewards are next-to-useless for long-time players, and there's no need to claim them all. For another, you can't carry more than 2000 points to the next tome anyway, so it doesn't even make sense to try to stock up.

No, its not too early to tell. I got 25% less than someone else. That is a clear disparity, and we can see it right now. The person that got an extra 500 points currently has access to things that I do not, entirely because of rng. If their good luck and my bad luck hold, they can finish the tome a month earlier than I can, and require less grinding to get there. It shouldn't take me longer to get the same rewards, full stop.

But what does it matter if they finish it earlier? All it does is mean they can unlock pages sooner, they aren't getting more rewards than anyone else, nor are they able to start unlocking next Season's rewards early or anything. If you're completing your Challenges you'll get the rewards either way, whether they take the whole Season or not. Getting them faster or slower doesn't change that you'll get them.

Others finishing earlier means they save time. Real world time, which as we know, is valuable to us all. I think this is a valid concern.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Yeah. This part of the system is much worse than the old endeavors where we all got the same points based on what we actually wanted to play. Disappointed they listened to the people that were like "aN aReNa ShOuLd Be WoRtH MoRe." Like I get it, arenas are harder than picking a flower. But, maybe I didn't feel like doing one this week. Now, I feel like I have to because otherwise I'm just cheating myself out of a lot of points. And that's if I'm even lucky enough to get the arena option in the first place. I'm permanently screwed out of like 500 points because it wouldn't stop giving me IC districts and that challenge is literally broken. I cannot complete it even though I captured multiple districts and that's a known bug. I'm also out of rerolls. Thanks for giving me a bugged weekly 5 times in a row ZOS!

Like I get it, arenas are harder than picking a flower.

Made me chuckle. And I agree with you.

Arunei wrote: »

But what does it matter if they finish it earlier? All it does is mean they can unlock pages sooner, they aren't getting more rewards than anyone else, nor are they able to start unlocking next Season's rewards early or anything. If you're completing your Challenges you'll get the rewards either way, whether they take the whole Season or not. Getting them faster or slower doesn't change that you'll get them.

I would say, it mostly matters if the people who are "behind" run out of time and feel pressured to buy the season to keep the collectibles around, while others easily got all of their free rewards. That's completely unfair.

Players in this game range from people who are retired and have it as their main hobby, to professionals who have very limited play time due to disruptive jobs, to everyone else in between. I've actually met quite a few people in game who are military and sometimes they are only able to play every few months.

I will use myself as an example. This is my typical play schedule for the week:

• Tuesday nights: Raid - 3 hrs
• Saturday morning: Dungeons - 4hrs
• Sunday morning: Dungeons - 4hrs

That's it. Now sometimes, on one of the weekend mornings, I can't play at all, and sometimes, one of the mornings I am not playing with my dungeon team and that leaves me open for PvP or some other activity. During an event, sometimes I will log on after work just to get the event ticket (now bars) and, during that time, if an endeavor was really easy (like drink two drinks or refine a few items), I'd do those. Event ticket, one set of writs, super easy endeavors, claim login reward, and I'm out. 15 minutes, tops.

I used to be frustrated with the daily login rewards when they had the big payout at the end of the month, because I didn't log in every day. I logged in 2- 3 days a week. My argument was always that if, on the days you play, you are on for a significant period of time, that multiple login days should be unlocked, if they truly wanted to reward all players, as opposed to trying to push everyone to log in daily. Eventually, ZOS moved the big or unique rewards earlier in the month, such that I was usually able to claim them, and then I was content with the system.

This new model seems like it may be worse for me, in regards to obtaining "free" rewards. I will have many weeks where I don't have time to do "extra" things. If whatever challenges I get can't be met in raids or dungeons, I may not get any Tome Points besides the login one. And if I don't get enough Tome Points, I won't be getting any seals, either, because now you don't just get the seals, but you have to "buy" them! Whereas before, with the old model, every day I played I was guaranteed one login reward and was almost always guaranteed some seals because at least one endeavor was super easy for me to get while playing dungeons and raids, and often, but not always, a weekly one was as well.

I see right now that my Tome is telling me "additional challenges in 1 day, 19 hours." If everyone gets different ones, I'm assuming the added ones will also be RNG and may or may not be ones that align with my activities. (Keep in mind, I enjoy most aspects of this game and don't mind using these challenges as something different to do... it's just that I often do not have TIME for that.) It also seems problematic if some people get trial and arena challenges at the beginning of the season and others may not get them more until the end, giving them less time to complete challenges that are more time consuming.

In my opinion, what matters the most here regarding whether Tomes are "fun" and a net positive is if most players are able to get more free rewards - ones that they like - more easily and flexibly than they were with the daily login/endeavor system previously. And I am not sure that is the case, especially given the Tome Points carryover cap per season. This system seems even less friendly towards people who have a structured and/or limited play schedule and/or like to do content with friends than the previous one.

Yeah, that is my main issue with the system. I don't mind the tasks awarding different amount of points, but the total should be the same. For example, you either get five 100 point tasks to pick 20 flowers or two 250 point tasks to kill Molag Kena.

BretonMage wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Czeri wrote: »

I think it's too early to tell if the varying number of tome points in the challenges will matter all that much. For one thing, plenty of the rewards are next-to-useless for long-time players, and there's no need to claim them all. For another, you can't carry more than 2000 points to the next tome anyway, so it doesn't even make sense to try to stock up.

No, its not too early to tell. I got 25% less than someone else. That is a clear disparity, and we can see it right now. The person that got an extra 500 points currently has access to things that I do not, entirely because of rng. If their good luck and my bad luck hold, they can finish the tome a month earlier than I can, and require less grinding to get there. It shouldn't take me longer to get the same rewards, full stop.

But what does it matter if they finish it earlier? All it does is mean they can unlock pages sooner, they aren't getting more rewards than anyone else, nor are they able to start unlocking next Season's rewards early or anything. If you're completing your Challenges you'll get the rewards either way, whether they take the whole Season or not. Getting them faster or slower doesn't change that you'll get them.

Others finishing earlier means they save time. Real world time, which as we know, is valuable to us all. I think this is a valid concern.

Tyrobag wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Czeri wrote: »

I think it's too early to tell if the varying number of tome points in the challenges will matter all that much. For one thing, plenty of the rewards are next-to-useless for long-time players, and there's no need to claim them all. For another, you can't carry more than 2000 points to the next tome anyway, so it doesn't even make sense to try to stock up.

No, its not too early to tell. I got 25% less than someone else. That is a clear disparity, and we can see it right now. The person that got an extra 500 points currently has access to things that I do not, entirely because of rng. If their good luck and my bad luck hold, they can finish the tome a month earlier than I can, and require less grinding to get there. It shouldn't take me longer to get the same rewards, full stop.

But what does it matter if they finish it earlier? All it does is mean they can unlock pages sooner, they aren't getting more rewards than anyone else, nor are they able to start unlocking next Season's rewards early or anything. If you're completing your Challenges you'll get the rewards either way, whether they take the whole Season or not. Getting them faster or slower doesn't change that you'll get them.

What do you mean "what does it matter if they finish it earlier?" Of course it matters, I'm getting shafted having to grind and do stuff I don't want to do instead of the stuff I enjoy while they're already done and off to have actual fun. Because of rng and zos' insistence on locking rewards behind grinding instead of real content, I've been chosen to have less fun than someone else. I've been chosen to have more of my time wasted. Plus, if I have to use caches, then its costing me more money to reach the same point! So yes, its completely unfair for no reason, and it sure as oblivion matters.

I dunno, I don't see it personally as an issue because of a couple of things:

1) No one is going to consistently be getting the activities with the super high amount of Tome Points. We've all seen that the reroll system needs some SERIOUS work. You can use all five of them and wind up rerolling into a task you're trying to get away from over and over again. And on the other side of that, people getting tasks with the fewer Points won't ALWAYS be unlucky and get only those. This is the first week of the system, it might look like some people will consistently ALWAYS have more and others ALWAYS have less, but I'm willing to bet as time goes on it will even out and people will more than likely wind up getting more or less the same amount, even if any one or two week's amounts are higher or lower than someone else's.

2) These aren't meant to be knocked out in a couple of days. Most of them you probably could if you really put your time into it, but you can have up to 12 Weekly Challenges roll over, which means the ones you CAN knock out in a few days you likely will, and those that take you longer because of something like limited schedule can be done at a slower pace.

Now I WILL admit that this particular bit CAN mean people with more time can get their five Challenges a week done every week and thus get more Points total than those who can't, but on the other hand...that would be the case even IF all the Challenges offered the same amount of Points. Some people will have the time to do 60 Challenges every Season, some people won't. It was like that for Endeavors. So there will already be people who can unlock Pages/rewards faster than others anyway, simply because there will always be people who can complete every Challenge every week and those who can't.

I do get the point is "If I do all my Weekly Challenges and get 2k Points, why is that less than someone who does them all and gets 2.5k?" And like I already mentioned, that's assuming before the first week is even done that everyone will consistently get the same numbers every week that they're getting from this week, and that won't be the case.

3) Starting next Season in U50, they're going to be introducing doing rerolls for Gold after your initial five. I don't think they've mentioned if THOSE ones have a limit or if they'll be unlimited, but it does mean you'll have more chances starting next update to get tasks worth more points if you prefer doing that. ESPECIALLY if they take into account how shoddy the reroll system is now and rework it to NOT give you something you rerolled three times in a row >__>.

I believe the disparity between points IS because there are tasks that are harder or take longer than others, but ZOS is expecting they'll eventually even out over the course of every Season because Person A won't always be getting the Do Five Trials every week, and Person B won't be getting Harvest 15 Mats every week for the disaprity to remain regular.

AzuraFan wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

Yeah, that is my main issue with the system. I don't mind the tasks awarding different amount of points, but the total should be the same. For example, you either get five 100 point tasks to pick 20 flowers or two 250 point tasks to kill Molag Kena.

That's how I think it should work, too. Everyone's total for the weekly challenges should be equal.

Honestly, I think this would be the best solution.

Each weekly task can have a different amount of points based upon difficulty, but the number of times you can do that task would give you the same number of points.

It would basically mean 'okay, everyone can get the same amount of points for their weeklies, it will just determine how long it will take you to earn those points'.

I also want to point out something that I just discovered:

You can get at least a second copy of the same challenge. I got two 'kill 20 shadowy daedra' and they count as individual challenges.

One of the reasons why I would like the challenge points to be equal, is because of what someone else mentioned: some people who get lucky with high point things they can do will be able to complete the tomes quickly.

But, for the ones who just can't do the high point stuff, or aren't lucky enough to get them, they could have to go up until the wire trying to get the last thing they want from this tome, simply because they only got low value/hard for them tasks.

I am someone who often prefers to get things done quickly, otherwise I forget about them. I don't often want to wait until closer to the end to do them. Now, I do like that we have a long time to do this, but that also works against me. If I go 'well, I will do this later/over time' I can easily lose track of time and end up having to rush/scramble to finish, or I just can't finish in the time I have left.

So, by having the points equalized across challenges, I can choose some challenges that I can do, even if they don't give many points per challenge, and get them done and still earn the same number of points as someone who can do things like trials and arenas, even if it takes me more time to do them per week.

Each weekly challenge should give x amount of tomes standard across the board.
Examples: Complete one weekly challenge and get 100 tomes.
Complete the 2nd weekly challenge and get 200 tomes
3rd 300 tomes, etc.
Use whatever number of tomes in total across the board for everyone.

At the end, if you do 5 weekly challenges, then you get a set total of tomes. No matter the activity, you needed to do to get 5 challenges done for the week. Same number for everyone across the board. Re-rolls are at each player’s own risk and pleasure.  Let people play how they want to play and engage in the activity they find the most fun in the game, and don't force them to do something you don’t want to and make it feel like a job or chore.

My 2 “nickels”

Stay safe

Trier_Sero wrote: »

There are 3 months worth of challenges ahead. Points amount will even out by the end. Nothing unfair here.

Points should usually, hopefully, even out. But.. since which challenges you get depend on RNG, you aren't assured of anything except being in the range specified in post #4 above:

Emeratis wrote: »

I'm gonna quote a post from a discord from a person who's better at math than me because I think it will help ease a few worries:

(snip)
lowest challenge i've seen seems to be 6 × 60 = 360 (396 for ESO+)
highest challenge i've seen seems to be 3 × 200 = 600 (660 for ESO+)

lowest weekly estimate = 360 × 5 × 14 = 25200 (27720)
highest weekly estimate = 600 × 5 × 14 = 42000 (46200)

The disparity isn't insignificant. And for those without a lot of time to do all the challenges, it could affect their rewards unfairly if their (say) 8 hours isn't valued at the same level as another player's 8 hours of play. That's the frustrating thing about RNG. And while I get that we have many systems using RNG in the game, it was not like this before for the daily logins/endeavors system.