Probably the most unfun patch for PvP if you’re not playing DK

HarfnUA · March 21

hoangdz wrote: »

HarfnUA wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.

This was my mitigation:

and CPs:

I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.

This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:

With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.

Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:

Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.

Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.

A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.

Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?

And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?

My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.

It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.

Yes, Unknown Timmy was in Vicious Death, a bomber set, and hitting a 7.7k non crit Power Lash with Corrosive Up. Meanwhile, Gigachad in a proper subclass build hit an 8.8k crit bow with Incap debuff (20% extra damage taken) and Balorgh (~18k pen).

I guess Unknown Timmy is so much better than Gigachad that he can afford to slot a bomber set front bar and still do more burst than Gigachad in a proper build with proper sets. What a joke lmfao

I think it's worth considering that Corrosive is very easy to kite. Due to the animation changes, Corrosive is very visible. It only takes 1-2 Streaks or just running away. If the players' skill level is high enough, to effectively use Corrosive you need to choose the right timing, position, and cooldowns of your abilities and sets. If I can kite Corrosive on my DK (melee) right now, then I think there shouldn’t be any problems for subclass builds with this.

Incap debuff can also be cleansed off or kited. Incap itself can be dodged or blocked. Yet, people complained about it.

Corrosive being easy to kite is not up for debate. But here’s the important part you’re missing: It is easy to kite… in a duel. When you fight outnumbered, there are a gazillion visual effects happening left and right. It gets pretty damn hard trying to recognize Corrosive’s animation amidst that chaos within a 2s window (yes, that’s how short it can be), let alone trying to see who popped that ultimate inside a 5-6 man group. When I got hit by that Corrosive Power Lash, I was ALREADY kiting and LoSing around a rock. That DK just happened to catch up to me with new wings (Major Expedition) along with 4 other DKs. As a melee build, I can’t kite forever. I need to heavy attack and go on offense. Don’t evem get me started on the ranged builds using Corrosive lol.

The point is a non-crit Flame Lash with Corrosive’s full pen is hitting almost as hard as a CRIT Spectral Bow amped up by Incap debuff (2x Major Vulnerability’s value) and Balorgh pen (17-18k pen with Balorgh and Major + Minor Breach). I had 4.5k crit resit (69% crit damage mitigation), so that crit Bow proc would have done an extra 65%+ crit damage to me (135% crit damage build, completely achievable with subclassing and Monomyth). A non-crit Bow would have done ~5300 damage, still 2.4k less than that Power Lash. I haven’t even gone into the fact that he could have done a 10k non crit Whip if he swapped to Molten morph.

People are so quick to tunnel vision on “Corrosive”, while ignoring the fact that it’s a NON CRIT hit on a SPAMMABLE. You can’t really spam Bows now can you?

I tried DK builds through "Mechanical Acuity". With Flame Lash, sometimes 5 crits in a row. And you think I kill everyone in IC? I believe that strong players mostly play in IC. And they can easily kite Corrosive. I may not be the strongest DK, but definitely not weak. Of course, I kill players, but the thing is that even in patch 48 I can kill on a pure DK. It was just very difficult. And personally, in my experience, other similar builds (Turn and Burn) of other classes have the same chances of killing someone.
I'm not going to argue that a pure DK is currently the strongest class. Although a pure sorcerer isn't bad either. But I'm certain that a meta subclass build is still stronger than a pure DK. And I can't understand why you dislike so much that DK has received new wings. DK has become less survivable. For the melee class this makes sense. If I were playing some ranged build, I would have preferred Race Against Time.

LittleLionLeone · March 21

I'm not going to get into a war with one of you but I just want to say that I much prefer getting killed by a dk whip vs Shalks.

Shalks is a skill that is very unfair to play against in mass. It's fine when one or two people are using it, but last year was nothing but Shalks, charm, streak, incap, and spec bow.

Instead of blindly demanding a nerf, beg for every other class rework to be as strong so we see more diversity.

hoangdz · March 21

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

I'm not going to get into a war with one of you but I just want to say that I much prefer getting killed by a dk whip vs Shalks.

Shalks is a skill that is very unfair to play against in mass. It's fine when one or two people are using it, but last year was nothing but Shalks, charm, streak, incap, and spec bow.

Instead of blindly demanding a nerf, beg for every other class rework to be as strong so we see more diversity.

Getting Whipped by 6 people isn't that different when Whip can hit for 9-10k. Same thing, repackaged.

Radiate77 · March 21

If everything is overpowered, nothing is.

katanagirl1 · March 21

NxJoeyD wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I’m certainly not a theorycrafter, but the thought of both reworked DKs and reworked Wardens dominating Cyrodiil while the other classes have to wait is depressing.

I hope the rest of us and Cyrodiil itself can survive this.

I think people will be ok.

The Devs are going to release Class Mastery passives, additional passive benefits that players running a non-subclassed build can equip (up to 2) which will work to try and bridge the gap while they continue to work on the class refreshes. We should get that in the next couple of months.

The changes to DK, IMO, were in the right direction. The reality is that anytime the Devs make a positive change the “toxic meta” as I like to call it will absolutely cherry pick parts of that, we’re seeing that with DK skills.

As for Warden, that’s not live on PTS yet so we don’t know what those specific changes are going to be, but, my prediction is that it’s going to cut into the metas pretty hard if they break up all the utility that’s being had out of the AC skill line. On a side note, the RoA set and Charm are being looked at during the Warden refresh due to all the bug reports.

In PvP the ceiling for crit scaling is soft so Crit has gone into orbit thanks to subclassing. With no added sources of Crit resist this has seen players who had been durable in the past aren’t as durable now.

For now, there’s no one-stop solution for players who choose not to run the meta. What I will say, just from my experience, is that there are options for non meta builds and creativity that are effective. No, they won’t hit like the meta but they can be competitive, especially against players who aren’t experienced and are instead leaning on sets or mechanics rather than skill.

In the meantime, I’m glad to see DK get some elevation.

Maybe things are different on PC, but despite what people say on here DK (except until recently) and Warden have always been the strongest PvP classes on my server. Not sorc or nightblade like others often say. You don’t see ball groups full of sorcs or nightblades, there are a few small scale groups with a few of them, but the main groups are always Warden and now DKs again. There are a tiny handful of sorcs and nightblades that are OP but not many. It will be painful for the historically strongest classes to get the first reworks, unless everyone switches to these classes, which will again make for a boring meta.

I know the reason behind these reworks, and I agree with them since I hate subclassing for throwing away the classes we have relied on for over ten years. We learned to live with their strengths and weaknesses, and subclassing just let everyone cherry pick with no consequences. In my opinion it would have been better to rework the weak classes first and put DK and Warden last as far as Cyrodiil goes. In the end maybe it will all work out but our GH population has been suffering for a long time and this won’t help in the short term.

LittleLionLeone · March 21

hoangdz wrote: »

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

I'm not going to get into a war with one of you but I just want to say that I much prefer getting killed by a dk whip vs Shalks.

Shalks is a skill that is very unfair to play against in mass. It's fine when one or two people are using it, but last year was nothing but Shalks, charm, streak, incap, and spec bow.

Instead of blindly demanding a nerf, beg for every other class rework to be as strong so we see more diversity.

Getting Whipped by 6 people isn't that different when Whip can hit for 9-10k. Same thing, repackaged.

Slightly more telegraphed, has to be in close quarters unlike spec bow, and doesn't happen automatically for you while you get to cast another skill like Shalks does.

So no, not really repackaged.

hoangdz · March 21

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

Slightly more telegraphed,

Both are equally telegraphed, not one slightly more than the other.

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

has to be in close quarters unlike spec bow

Hello? Meta subclassed builds using Assassination were majorily melee. Also, DK Wings hard counter Spectral Bow.

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

doesn't automatically for you while you get to cast another skill like Shalks does.

Inhale + Incinerate, hello?

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

So no, not really repackaged.

I play both pure DK and subclassed builds with Assassination/Animal. They are literally the same, just repackaged. Pure DK is nuking much better than subclass builds tho. Just look at Corro + Power Lash builds and see for yourself.

LittleLionLeone · March 21

hoangdz wrote: »

Hello? Meta subclassed builds using Assassination were majorily melee. Also, DK Wings hard counter Spectral Bow.

melee + being able to still do damage at range yes. DK lacks that outside of Magma Fist and Leap. Want to not die from a DK? Kite them around corners and gain distance.

DK has always been known to be the brawler type class, why wouldn't they be the strongest in that?

hoangdz wrote: »

Inhale + Incinerate, hello?

Was talking about whip specifically, but yet again see above. DK is the brawler class.

hoangdz · March 21

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

melee + being able to still do damage at range yes. DK lacks that outside of Magma Fist and Leap. Want to not die from a DK? Kite them around corners and gain distance.

Except that movement speed is so easily achievable nowadays, and DK just happened to have access to Major Expedition + snare immunity + 50% ranged damage reduction in 1 skill.

Without any medium piece my base sprint speed is 140%. Add Major Expedition 30%, Hasty 4%, and Celerity 10%, and I'm at 184% sprint speed. Add 3 medium and now I'm at 193%. Add snare/root immunity and now I can chase down people.

This isn't 2016. If you don't have something to create distance (knockback or Streak), then good luck trying to sprint away from anyone moving at near speed cap.

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

DK has always been known to be the brawler type class, why wouldn't they be the strongest in that?

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

Was talking about whip specifically, but yet again see above. DK is the brawler class.

So you admit they are better than subclass builds yes? I have been farming subclass builds on my pure DK. Animal/Assassination builds do not stand a chance.

Oblivion_Protocol · March 22

hoangdz wrote: »

So you admit they are better than subclass builds yes? I have been farming subclass builds on my pure DK. Animal/Assassination builds do not stand a chance.

That’s a bit of an exaggeration. Yes, DKs have slightly more power than the typical subclass builds (which I will again point out is what people demanded for months from pure class builds). But to say they don’t stand a chance is categorically false. In a 1v1 with equal skill level, a subclassed Warden and a DK can trade kills rather evenly. Meaning that pure DK is about on the level of subclassing.

However, we’re not seeing a lot of 1v1s. We’re seeing two or three DKs jumping on people, or one hyper-skilled player getting the most out of the DK class and slaughtering people who either don’t know what they’re doing or don’t quite have the same skill level.

All this talk of needing DK undermines the entire point of the class reworks, which is to make pure classes stronger. DK isn’t just popular because it’s stronger. It’s also more fun for people to play because it can compete and offer an option that isn’t Animal Companions/Assassination/Storm Calling.

Just wait until then other class reworks are done and DK’s power doesn’t just exist in a vacuum.

LennaTheRussian · March 22

hoangdz wrote: »

So you admit they are better than subclass builds yes? I have been farming subclass builds on my pure DK. Animal/Assassination builds do not stand a chance.

That's kinda the point of the rework. People were complaining about subclassing being more op than pure classing. Pure classes should be stronger overall, once the warden rework comes out hopefully it's just as strong as dk.

Nerfing the meta just makes people default to the next best thing. But if every class is "meta" then we get more build variety. ZoS clearly have some regrets about how they did subclassing, but it's too late to roll it back.

I for one can't wait for classes like necro to be a viable option in pvp once more.

Dk is strong right now yes, but it's no different than the meta from last year. People were getting stomped by high crit ac/assassination/restoring light or storm calling builds.

There are still ways to beat the dk meta, just have to find out how.

NxJoeyD · March 22

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

So you admit they are better than subclass builds yes? I have been farming subclass builds on my pure DK. Animal/Assassination builds do not stand a chance.

That's kinda the point of the rework. People were complaining about subclassing being more op than pure classing. Pure classes should be stronger overall, once the warden rework comes out hopefully it's just as strong as dk.

Nerfing the meta just makes people default to the next best thing. But if every class is "meta" then we get more build variety. ZoS clearly have some regrets about how they did subclassing, but it's too late to roll it back.

I for one can't wait for classes like necro to be a viable option in pvp once more.

Dk is strong right now yes, but it's no different than the meta from last year. People were getting stomped by high crit ac/assassination/restoring light or storm calling builds.

There are still ways to beat the dk meta, just have to find out how.

Agreed. Bringing non subclassed builds up in power was part of the point.

The only criticism I have over the DK refresh is that I feel like some aspects should have been built as “base DK only”, not just if one is a DK.

What I mean by that is, take Lava Whip, for example. Any build can choose to subclass that skill and will get not only the base skill but the off-balance Power Lash stacks. IMO that should be a pure DK only benefit. If one wants to subclass that skill / morph they should only get the base damage / heal aspect, not the rest.

Even the DK conditional bonus damage isn’t exclusive to DKs, because any players who swap over to a DK character and then subclass that one just to get recognized as a DK even though they aren’t a pure DK will still get the bonus damage.

I like that DK got elevated in power I just think that power should have been confined to the class rather than also available to subclassed builds who want to cherry pick the skill.

I see a fair amount of Flame Lash on subclassed builds and it’s no wonder why since Animal Companions & Aedric Spear are some of the meta go-to skill lines and both Cliff Racer & Toppling Charge will synergize right up with Flame Lash.

I think the Devs made an oversight by not making the full scope of some of these new skills fully class contained. Rather they elevated DK but forgot to close the back door so subclassing builds can still take advantage of the power creep that was supposed to combat them.

hoangdz · March 22

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

So you admit they are better than subclass builds yes? I have been farming subclass builds on my pure DK. Animal/Assassination builds do not stand a chance.

That’s a bit of an exaggeration. Yes, DKs have slightly more power than the typical subclass builds (which I will again point out is what people demanded for months from pure class builds). But to say they don’t stand a chance is categorically false. In a 1v1 with equal skill level, a subclassed Warden and a DK can trade kills rather evenly. Meaning that pure DK is about on the level of subclassing.

However, we’re not seeing a lot of 1v1s. We’re seeing two or three DKs jumping on people, or one hyper-skilled player getting the most out of the DK class and slaughtering people who either don’t know what they’re doing or don’t quite have the same skill level.

All this talk of needing DK undermines the entire point of the class reworks, which is to make pure classes stronger. DK isn’t just popular because it’s stronger. It’s also more fun for people to play because it can compete and offer an option that isn’t Animal Companions/Assassination/Storm Calling.

Just wait until then other class reworks are done and DK’s power doesn’t just exist in a vacuum.

Come to Stormhaven and see how many subclassed Warden trade kills evenly with a DK.

nightbringer1993 · March 22

ZOS should have released all the class refresh at once. Even if that means that we had to wait for summer next year.

Right now the classes will be seriously imbalanced and classes like nightblade and necro will be seriously underperforming because they will be refreshed last.

I still don’t understand why Necro is refreshed last. Four years that the players are asking for refresh and ZOS spits at our faces again by placing Necro last(excluding arcanist).

xylena · March 22

hoangdz wrote: »

Come to Stormhaven and see how many subclassed Warden trade kills evenly with a DK.

You're still the only player ITT that sees this as a bad thing. The rest of us are celebrating the return of the class system and the death of the worst meta in game history.

Originally I was all for subclassing, but the implementation has been so horrendous that I could care less if subclassed Wardens rot in F tier for the rest of the game's existence.

The devs still need to deal with busted sets/stats enabling extreme tank/burst and infinite sustain across classes. There needs to be a full set balance pass, burst damage procs in particular need to be nuked from existence in PvP. You asked how many sets, the answer is "all of them."

Complete insanity to me that players would whine about a 10k whip then go silent or even "defend" something like a 10k Null Arca proc. This is part of why we end up with meta after meta where classes and weapons are flavorless empty vessels for the latest busted set/stat cheese.

hoangdz · March 22

xylena wrote: »

You're still the only player ITT that sees this as a bad thing.

When did I say it was a bad thing? I literally mentioned several times in this thread that I agree with waiting until all classes have been reworked. However, I also claimed that certain things in the DK toolkit needs to be adjusted for the time being. Both things can be true, so idk why it has to be either "I'm all for it" or "I'm against it".

xylena wrote: »

The rest of us are celebrating the return of the class system and the death of the worst meta in game history.

Let me ask you 3 questions then:

1) If for the next 3-6 months, the majority of the playerbase are on DK, then will you be okay with that?
2) If you're okay with that, then why is it any different than 6 months of subclassing meta?
3) If I play a non-DK pure class, then what am I supposed to do?

Because to me, they are fundamentally identical. With subclassing, you have a year of the same 2 builds (Assassination/Animal/X, and Assassination/Aedric/X). With U49, you have 3 months of DK. How are they any different from each other? Subclassing sucked, but my pure Sorc was able to compete vs those meta builds. This patch, everyone is a DK, and pure DK is so far ahead of subclassing that my Sorc simply cannot compete. The best I can do is kite and stalemate. How is that fun?

xylena wrote: »

Originally I was all for subclassing, but the implementation has been so horrendous that I could care less if subclassed Wardens rot in F tier for the rest of the game's existence.

So now we have come to the root of your argument. You are essentially saying that you don't care what meta is as long as subclassed Wardens cease to exist. That's an understandable sentiment, and I had the same feeling towards NB subclassed builds. But guess what? I am now having to deal with pure DKs that can literally tank all my damage and nuke me in 1 GCD every 4 seconds (Yes, that's how strong DK is). Suddenly those pesky NBs aren't really an issue anymore. Pure DK right now is 2 tiers above everything I've fought, including those NBs, and it's borderline impossible to play unless I join them, and guess what? I am playing a DK lol. Do I enjoy it? No, I don't because it isn't my playstyle, but the choice is either quit playing until Sorc gets buffed, or join the meta.

xylena wrote: »

The devs still need to deal with busted sets/stats enabling extreme tank/burst and infinite sustain across classes. There needs to be a full set balance pass, burst damage procs in particular need to be nuked from existence in PvP. You asked how many sets, the answer is "all of them."

Agreed on all front. I personally want to move away from Rallying Cry and Monomyth, but I don't think that's going to happen unless ZOS buffs old sets and introduces more critical mitigation.

xylena wrote: »

Complete insanity to me that players would whine about a 10k whip then go silent or even "defend" something like a 10k Null Arca proc. This is part of why we end up with meta after meta where classes and weapons are flavorless empty vessels for the latest busted set/stat cheese

I personally have never been a fan of procs, and I'm sure you have seen me arguing with people on threads like "Nerf RoA". However, I do think they are separate issues and can be adjusted individually. To me, the Vengeance campaign was a missed opportunity to fix this issue. If only ZOS could focus less on fixing performance for that campaign and instead try to balance the game, it would be a nearly perfect PvP environment.

xylena · March 22

hoangdz wrote: »

1) If for the next 3-6 months, the majority of the playerbase are on DK, then will you be okay with that?
2) If you're okay with that, then why is it any different than 6 months of subclassing meta?
3) If I play a non-DK pure class, then what am I supposed to do?

1) yes
2) forward progress as opposed to how subclassing threw the game off a cliff
3) same exact things non-DK pure classes did during subclassing meta

hoangdz wrote: »

So now we have come to the root of your argument. You are essentially saying that you don't care what meta is as long as subclassed Wardens cease to exist.

yes

HarfnUA · March 22

hoangdz wrote: »

Because to me, they are fundamentally identical. With subclassing, you have a year of the same 2 builds (Assassination/Animal/X, and Assassination/Aedric/X). With U49, you have 3 months of DK. How are they any different from each other? Subclassing sucked, but my pure Sorc was able to compete vs those meta builds. This patch, everyone is a DK, and pure DK is so far ahead of subclassing that my Sorc simply cannot compete. The best I can do is kite and stalemate. How is that fun?

Over the past two days playing Cyrodil, IC and BG, I've noticed that players I consider strong are starting to switch back from DK to their subclass builds. Some are combining with the DK subclass. Even now, it looks better than the meta of previous patches, where everyone played the same builds. With the next patches, diversity will increase even more. I think that in 1-2 weeks there will again be a large number of subclass builds, as the DK rework did not weaken the meta subclass builds. And these builds still remain stronger than a pure DK. I'm sure that when the Sorc rework patch comes out, you will be happy. Previously, you could kite and kill a pure DK 10 out of 10 times, and it so happened that pure Sorc had good chances in PvP against meta subclass builds. I've mentioned before that pure Sorc is quite strong, and this is not just my opinion. But it was not normal when everyone stopped playing pure builds simply because they became unplayable against meta builds. And while I sometimes encountered pure Sorks and pure NB (ganker) in IC, the other classes simply stopped playing. And a 10k whip (still needs to be implemented with Corrosive) is not as dangerous as the Warden's Charm + Incap + Shalk combo totaling over 30k (and while the DK regenerates Corrosive, you can be hit by this combo three times). And if a Sorc can keep their distance and deal damage, the other classes don't stand a chance. Even now, on a pure DK, it's very difficult to do anything against this combination.

Right now, DK is stronger than the other pure classes, but not yet stronger than the meta subclass that everyone hates. However, after the next patches, I hope this will change. Pure builds will be as strong as subclass builds. The only problem is the timing of the patch releases for the other classes.

Urzigurumash · March 22

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

There is one small relief I would be surprised if anybody opposed:

REMOVE THE FLAME DAMAGE TAKEN ON VAMPIRE

I was all about this during the last DK meta, I'm all about it again. This would give us all Undeath at its modest 10% rather than the OP 30% last time. Right now I assume all non Glass Cannon have dropped Vamp for this patch.

Players should take vampire for the abilities not the passives.

Vampires take extra Flame Damage to conform to the series lore and basic common sense.

Take the line if you want to play like a vampire not for the free stats. We lived that stupid life for way too long, most of vampire's entire existence. Originally, you took it for the free regen. Later, you took it for the free mitigation. No build decision should be free. The tiny increases to ability cost by themselves are not a high enough price for the power.

@YandereGirlfriend

Says who? Passives drive many choices, it's driven the DW meta for years, even before Hybridization remember lotsa MagDK and Melee MagBlades slotted Swords for the Damage Done passive. Good bad, up for debate, but it's the game we play.

The Stealth Passives enable playing like a Vampire and Undeath is back to where it was in the Beforetimes, a small bone thrown to Light Armor wearers (insert Skara Minoc's Mitigation graph). Unnatural Movement is a very "active" Passive I'd say, almost a skill effect.

The Ult is a strong crutch for 3x Offensive Line stacks, even if all the other skills besides the spammable are lacking right now. (and it's not a tremendously Vampiric skill that claw, imo)

Stealth play, crutch Ult for subclass demons that can stand up to Corrosive, take out the Flame Penalty and it would give some power back to Non DKs.

I think I always favor modifying Global Passives to address exigencies? Passives are easily modified it seems, just look at the history of Glacial Presence, a Passive which I suspect will soon get everyone's attention.

As for the lore no it's all slander! Dirty lies by the living. Free us of this penalty!

Urzigurumash · March 22

on that note allow me to point out ANOTHER Damage Taken passive that unduly influences the Meta: Magical Damage Taken on Heavy Armor!

Any good reason to keep it?

edit: oh wait I forgot. Heavy Armor?? Tank meta! 🙁

xylena · March 22

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Says who? Passives drive many choices, it's driven the DW meta for years

Bad thing. Passives shouldn't overshadow actives. It kills class/skill identity and obligates antithematic builds. We already went through this with obligatory vamp 3, mandatory subclassing for passives, warriors putting down their 2H to wield dual knives like a rogue...

If you're not using any DW skills, then it shouldn't matter whether you choose DW or 2H, you should be able to choose the aesthetic or feel you prefer, just like it shouldn't matter whether you play vamp or mortal if you don't want to actually engage with being a vampire.

If subclassing didn't also swap passives, it wouldn't have been nearly as much a disaster.

Urzigurumash · March 22

xylena wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Says who? Passives drive many choices, it's driven the DW meta for years

Bad thing. Passives shouldn't overshadow actives. It kills class/skill identity and obligates antithematic builds. We already went through this with obligatory vamp 3, mandatory subclassing for passives, warriors putting down their 2H to wield dual knives like a rogue...

If you're not using any DW skills, then it shouldn't matter whether you choose DW or 2H, you should be able to choose the aesthetic or feel you prefer, just like it shouldn't matter whether you play vamp or mortal if you don't want to actually engage with being a vampire.

If subclassing didn't also swap passives, it wouldn't have been nearly as much a disaster.

Yeah that's true, I totally agree about Weapon Passives, another part of this is the "class skills must rule all" ideology. Nice to see somebody acknowledge that DW is supposed to be for Rogues, there's been too little appreciation for Thief vs Warrior on this forum.

But these are thematic ideas I think, I'm not sure Passives are necessarily detrimental to mechanics? Passives could enable diversity if they were better balanced, no?

Vampire is like a race though, it's not a skillset or a martial art or a magical school, it's part of ones biology (necrology?) and race is only Passives.

Another view, we only have 12 skill slots. We can further customize our characters with Passives.

Urzigurumash · March 22

Let me take this back to the practical though: removing the Flame Damage penalty. This patch would be better or worse?

Urzigurumash · March 22

I feel very unengaged with Vampirism having to cure it because 95% of the damage out there is Flame

xylena · March 22

Urzigurumash wrote: »

But these are thematic ideas I think, I'm not sure Passives are necessarily detrimental to mechanics? Passives could enable diversity if they were better balanced, no?

Theme/aesthetic/playstyle is the entire reason we have all these choices, otherwise we'd just be flipping coins or throwing rock/paper/scissors. Yeah there's a right way to do passives like the new Class Mastery, where you need to be all in on the theme to get the mechanical power.

Part of the 2H vs DW problem is definitely the stat imbalance. DW passives are generically good and don't demand you actually use DW skills, while the 2H passives are weirdly specialized on top of also demanding you go all in on a 2H weapon skill strat.

This is relevant because pure DK looks cooler with a 2H.

Urzigurumash · March 22

xylena wrote: »

This is relevant because pure DK looks cooler with a 2H.

I remain convinced the original Molten Armaments Heavy Attack buff was supposed to synergize with 2h's Follow Up and Heavy Armor's Revitalize. Maybe it was a delusion of mine, I didn't play during Beta, it's still a bit murky to me whether StamDK was "supposed" to exist? Or if it was retrofitted to fill the tanky Warrior slot.

Somebody else recently pointed out the On Kill passive is a big weak point for 2h in PvP.

Urzigurumash · March 22

But yes I'm a strong advocate for theme Xylena, the entire raison d'être for my forum account was to defend the right of Orcs to deal damage while wearing Heavy Armor since this was such a taboo idea some years back.

But the Flame Damage Taken penalty on Vamp is just too much, it's way too high. Back during the long period of OP Undeath, as we dissected ad nauseam, this penalty helped to enforce the DK Meta of the time. I suspect this current DK Meta will drive all builds except true Gankers to cure. Ganking is very thematic for Vamp but less glass cannonish Evasive Mag toons still need a bit of capacity to brawl.

TBD though, in some ways if a DK is instagibbing you what difference does 13 or 20% make - and Undeath doesn't do a ton if a Whip takes out 2/3rds your HP.

Decimus · March 22

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I feel very unengaged with Vampirism having to cure it because 95% of the damage out there is Flame

Well, won't have to worry about that too much after other classes get their reworks.

I think it's absolutely fine and even preferable if the game has a rock-paper-scissors approach to balance, keeps things interesting.

Urzigurumash · March 22

Decimus wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I feel very unengaged with Vampirism having to cure it because 95% of the damage out there is Flame

Well, won't have to worry about that too much after other classes get their reworks.

I think it's absolutely fine and even preferable if the game has a rock-paper-scissors approach to balance, keeps things interesting.

Yeah you're probably right. My initial idea here is just that now is a time when everyone having Undeath would make PVP more fun rather than less. At least that's what I'm thinking.

Decimus would you run Stage 3 or 4 on any spec right now besides a Seething Fury Gank?

Urzigurumash · March 22

Or actually I don't mean to put you on the spot there. I think we all would lean towards No Vamp, but it's much too early in the patch to be sure. If you're playing Evasive+Ranged well your real problem is other Ranged, not DKs.