spartaxoxo wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

EDIT: You never said anything about the 1/2 Tel Var cost and until I heard it from you I would not relent. The other user did suggest it and thus I can agree with them. The point is to get to the root cause of what a person is trying to argue for. There is no "ignoring" if a majority of posters in the thread are saying the same exact thing, some more transparent about advocating for cheating than others. Also, a response isn't an obligation. I respond to what I want to.

Not the case (ETA; just including this picture to clarify). You can respond to what you want but if you go into the discussion with the assumption that everyone on the other side is just a cheat, it can be difficult to discern the root cause of concern and come up with compromise solutions that work for both parties.

I understand that there are people who just want to leave with large amounts of Tel-Var mid combat and I agree with you that it's not fair. But there are other reasons to want their implementation to be improved besides just that. The current limit is so low that I literally hit it the moment I dropped down and cleaned up the stuff around me and I hadn't picked up the quest. There were no PvP enemies around me and I had not farmed anything. Should I really need to spend 10 minutes in a completely different activity to fix a 14 second mistake? Should I really need to hit 4 loading screens for that? I don't think so. I don't see what's the point of a limit if it's not going to serve a purpose for minor things like that. And I don't see how that compromises the game mode.

Sigils should be a way to preserve Tel-Var rather than only method of exit. An exit can cost Tel-Var or take a long to time to work or whatever other control they want to make. I don't have an issue with them putting limitations to combat exploitation.

Casul wrote: »

The solution has always been you can only steal as much Tel Var as you are holding.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Casul wrote: »

The solution has always been you can only steal as much Tel Var as you are holding.

Does this still include only up to half they were carrying? Because I myself am not afraid to hold large amounts of Tel-Var while I go hunting. What would be the incentive for me to hold 20k+, for example? Would zergs who can zap me with impunity be rewarded handsomely for playing it safe in numbers?

People are still going to PVP you regardless of your Tel-Var wallet. They may only gain based on how much they carry, but if you lose nothing for dying (say if they're holding nothing) then this is a Tel-Var duping exploit.

Tis fine, PvP away, I just want the people attacking me to also have to risk something if I actually successfully defend myself.

Just to be clear, you'll still lose half due to death yourself, just that the other player doesn't steal half?

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Casul wrote: »

The solution has always been you can only steal as much Tel Var as you are holding.

Does this still include only up to half they were carrying? Because I myself am not afraid to hold large amounts of Tel-Var while I go hunting. What would be the incentive for me to hold 20k+, for example? Would zergs who can zap me with impunity be rewarded handsomely for playing it safe in numbers?

People are still going to PVP you regardless of your Tel-Var wallet. They may only gain based on how much they carry, but if you lose nothing for dying (say if they're holding nothing) then this is a Tel-Var duping exploit.

Tis fine, PvP away, I just want the people attacking me to also have to risk something if I actually successfully defend myself.

Just to be clear, you'll still lose half due to death yourself, just that the other player doesn't steal half?

Only reasonable adjustments if something like this were to change is to remove the cap of how much telvar you can lose or else it's not proper "risk/reward".

Aka if I've 10k telvar and kill someone who has 9k, I take everything they have on them.

If they still think you shouldn't lose more than 50% and on top of suggested change, you don't really want proper risk/reward but rather just another excuse to not lose telvar.

Right, but you're still not being clear either: If I have zero Tel Var, and I Kill you, you having 10K, do you still lose 50% yourself? (I still wouldn't get any). How much do you lose (even to the void), if killed by another player that doesn't hit whatever threshold you're suggesting.

But also, to your idea: awesome, another idea to reinforce even more ballgroups and unkillable builds that exist solely to farm IC & people as slowly as possible. (Might you be a fan of farming players in Faregyl Tower?)

Like dang, it's like all the IC Tel Var suggestions are for the already entrenched meta players whom have no issue wiping districts and just get salty when they get ganked.

"I feel comfortable carrying 10K Tel Var and using Imperial Physique, and I'm entitled to at least double everything I have, or everything you have if you fail to kill me, and if I'm ganked with all these boosted stats I better be able to pop a detect pot and get everything from them".

Markytous wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Waits_Behind_Walls wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Enjoy the content that you like and let players who enjoy the brutal nature of Imperial City (the way it was initially designed) enjoy it.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I said I was going to do, and explained why. As for seeing more people since the patch, if you say so. I don't think anyone was avoiding the zone because it wasn't PVP enough or they didn't understand that was the purpose of it, so I don't see any reason why people would be drawn in now. Anyway.

If you want the zone populated, as has historically been the complaint about the PVP zones, it needs to be more enjoyable for different playstyles. The sewer gauntlet run is annoying when you're forced to do it, but probably wouldn't be bad as its own thing for its own sake. I wouldn't know, I just associate it with the drudgery of trying to exit the zone after I've already grown tired of playing. They could give people more options for exiting, like doors you pay Tel Var to use, or more options for dropping off Tel Var, like a smuggler who takes a cut. People have already suggested making the recall stones more easily obtained. The zone can become less burdenson without making it less PVP-oriented.

Its definitely more attractive to people who don't like exploits this update because literally the only thing thats changed is that you cannot cheat/exploit with queueouts during combat or imminent danger without a Sigil of Imperial Retreat. Its not a good hill to die on that the sky is falling because you cannot cheat/exploit anymore. Imperial City has increased in players since the update. Its an objective fact as of right now and could fall off at any time; as of now groups are running around again. People can cope about the reason why the population has increased, saying that its not because the exploit was removed, but that is the only change that has occurred in the content. Coping that people like exploits and come to games/content because the game lets them cheat is self-serving and disingenuous. The community at large, I believe, aren't a bunch of exploiters/cheaters. They're gamers who want to play grounded, diverse gameplay spaces with choices on how to play. If they want a more hardcore experience, Imperial City is there for them. Otherwise, there is an abundance of options outside of the Imperial City that are less daunting/consume less time commitment.

"I can't cheat the system anymore so Imperial City should not exist at all. Forget the people who enjoyed it for what it was since the beginning!" You were never forced to play Imperial City. If its not for you, play something else.

EDIT: I don't know a single game or game community that says things like "This game is good because of the hackers/cheaters in it".

1) You keep claiming it was an exploit that people could queue for Cyro and port from IC. Except you can still do that. Go into IC, queue into whatever campaign has high bars or is poplocked while under 100 TV, do IC till the queue pops, leave. Did the queue pop too fast? Go back into IC, dump your TV, rinse and repeat.

Or better yet, run around until you get the TV you want and then queue for a Random Daily Dungeon with a friend who's playing tank (or just mark yourself as a tank) and get a near instant port out. You can queue for BG too, because both of those queues aren't blocked even if you have more than 100 TV. BG queue would probably take longer so you could theoretically queue for that and then run around, and leave once the queue pops, same with queuing for a Dungeon if you aren't a tank. And again, if it pops too soon, just go back in and do it all over again.

If porting out immediately was considered an exploit, if porting out at all was considered an exploit, why are various ways to still do both still available? Also you keeping acting like everyone who did it was cheating; it clearly wasn't a cheat if they've coded it to work the way it does currently. Aka there still being ways to port out (again pretty much guaranteed immediately if you queue as a tank for a Random Daily Dungeon.

2) You claim there's evidence that the change has made IC more populated. Where is that proof? Unless you have actual solid objective numbers having increased, you cannot claim there is evidence. There's a difference between THINKING something is true because of your own experiences and KNOWING it's true because there are actual official stats to back it up.

You feeling you're seeing more people does not necessarily mean the change has actually brought back a substantial number of players who are consistently playing in IC now. It just means there might be a handful of people who are coming to see how the changes feel/work. The real test of whether this ACTUALLY encourages more people to be in the Zone will be if in a couple of months there are continued consistent increased numbers.

I only speak about population because people keep saying that Imperial City "is going to die". The truth that everybody knows is that its population has never been "substantial" outside of Midyear Mayhem (where it actually does garner large amounts of players). Fixing exploits should never consider population; bugs and exploits, if abused, in many cases result in a suspensions or ban.

Since Sigil of Imperial Retreat exists, it invalidates any claims that queuing out to cash in your Tel Var was intended by ZOS. I've said this before; since this exploit is being fixed by ZOS, it means proactively that it is not intended. Having to go through menus and "tricking" the system to get you to avoid intended gameplay mechanics is not a playstyle; it is an exploit. Exploits must be fixed to maintain the integrity of the gameplay. So many games are plagued with hackers, especially in the First-Person Shooter market. The notoriety of hacking and how it damages the authenticity of the experience hinders these games from getting overwhelming praise by game communities. Its unfair for the people who play the game as intended (in this case, for people who use Sigils of Imperial Retreat). You should not be saying to people who use Sigils or are satisfied with leaving Imperial City through Sewer Base Camp that they are suckers. They are playing Imperial City as intended.

Last point. Imperial City is NOT a very big Public Dungeon. Everyone who is upset the exploit is being fixed sets up this strawman idea that Imperial City is inaccessible (The thread's title is Imperial City is Unplayable for goodness' sake) where its so difficult to traverse in and out of it. This is not the case. Districts connect each Sewer Base Camp delineated by 2 sewer drains per Faction Base Camp. This does not take even 2 minutes to navigate. If you weren't going to spend 2 minutes to navigate Imperial City and if 2 minutes is all you can spare, perhaps maybe Imperial City is not for you. The inconvenience is being wildly exaggerated for the sake of defending an exploit that guilds/discords have been using to dominate the in-game economy. Not to mention the Sigil of Imperial Retreat, which, if you had any desire to stick around and play Imperial City, would be of abundance in your inventory already. You can use ANY Faction Base Camp, regardless of Faction, to exit the Imperial City. This strawman fallacy needs to stop.

If you don't like the Imperial City but are forcing yourself to farm it because you and your mates get rich off of it through exploiting, perhaps consider the damage that you've done to not only your personal gaming experience but to others (the in-game economy at large).

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

IC is supposed to be a warzone not a safe space. Hope Zos keeps the change, clearly queueing out of ic to save your currency wasnt intended. If they bring any change though counter to this one, they could make queueing out of cyro in IC cost half your telvar same as a port stone, but really that defeats the purpose of those entirely.

Idk up to them but exploits like that to escape pvping in a pvp zone should indeed be removed. There is such a thing as too much convenience in a game.

I don't think ganking in stealth at ladders, base doors, and quest areas is intended either

It absolutely is. Ganking is a staple of PvP combat. They wouldn't have stealth mechanics if ganking wasn't intended.

When this all started, you had to get into IC through Cyrodiil. The change came because gankers would lay in wait stealthed, then when someone tried to enter the door, they'd get ganked and you couldn't do anything about it.

Incorrect. Imperial City became its own campaign for server population reasons. When it was attached to Cyrodiil, Imperial City players were hogging server space (the cap of which was decreased year by year) and had no actual effect on the score of the Cyrodiil campaign. This meant that players in IC were essentially taking up space in their faction and actively putting their faction at a disadvantage in Cyrodiil.

So what you're saying is when they made the change for queueing into Cyro or IC, queueing out was intended.
Okay, at least there's that argument settled.
The truth is laying in wait ganking certain areas isn't what the devs intended to happen with this change. It was a problem before that had been talked about a lot in the forums, but ignored by ZOS, and defended by gankers.
People had an issue getting into IC because of gankers at the IC doors, so the IC population argument doesn't really hold up either.

Holy Strawman Fallacy, Batman...

There is absolutely no fallacy in that Joker.

There was. I told you the history of the IC Queue, and you misconstrued it into an argument I was not making. That is the definition of a Strawman.

Markytous wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

The Sigil is the silver bullet to your discord/guilds' arguments. There's literally nothing wrong with it if you enjoy PVP and no excuses can sidestep this. There is nothing inconvenient about it.

Clearly, you think that thousands of AP a night is a trivial cost to someone who prefers IC over Cyro, and I’m just going to have to disagree with you on that point.

Markytous wrote: »

If you literally want to fight players and nothing else (kill Trove Scamps/Open Chests/Buy From Vendor), there are Battlegrounds available. I've told PVE players that maybe IC isn't for them and now I am telling a so-called PVP player that maybe IC isn't for them. Its a unique PvPvE environment that I enjoyed just how it was before exploits were set in motion.

I’ll tell you what. You pay for my subscription, and then you can tell me what parts of the game are or aren’t “for me”. Until then, please keep those kinds of comments and so-called thoughts to yourself.

It’s nice that you enjoy it, but you can’t just brush aside the fact that others don’t, and for good reasons.

Once again, I will point out that no one is bothered about not being able to queue out during a fight, which is what the exploit argument boils down to. People are upset that the solution wasn’t to simply block queuing out while you’re in combat. I mean, you can’t log out or shut the game down while in combat. Why is preventing queues so hard?

Markytous wrote: »

Call it a ghost town all you may, it deserves to exist as it is, just as PVP and PVE content exists in the game.

When a company sinks resources into a product, and the product does worse than it did before the resources went into it, one of two things happen. Either the changes get rolled back, or the product gets shelved. I don’t want to see IC shut down. But at this rate, the playerbase for it isn’t growing. It’s shrinking. And I would think that you would notice the fact that you’re the only one in this entire thread championing this so hard, and maybe pivot or try to see other perspectives, rather than smugly declaring that there’s no argument against this.

So you're saying basically that if exploiters fund the game content, exploits should run the game. Can't agree there.
"But the cash cows and whales are all exploiters and exploit-promoting individuals! Follow the money!"

Imperial City is free and included with the base game. This is the place (the forums) to try to ask the developers to change Imperial City back to a more exploit-centric "content", however this is also the place where players such as myself will make counterarguments in favor of less dishonest "gameplay". This thread only exists because an exploit was patched (and yet as of now is still in the game). If a person does not enjoy District Roaming, Sewers Roaming, PVP, PVE farming, Treasure Chest farming, Cunning/Trove Scamp hunting, etc., then its valid to suggest that they should look elsewhere to spend their time. Nobody should be trying to argue that they should go stub their toes repeatedly because eventually the thing they keep kicking to stub their toes will eventually change (or in this case stay the same). Why stomp out the identity of the Imperial City when options for PVP and PVP exist elsewhere? Its about easy currency, isn't it? And, if it isn't about easy currency, then why care so much? PVE players have loads of content to select. PVP players have Battlegrounds (I hesitate to mention Cyrodiil because players complaining about inconvenience in IC must hate mounting for a moment keep to keep). People are very upset that Imperial City's exploitable state is finally under the lens of ZOS. I think the solution to all of this is for people to just stick to what content they enjoy. This is good life advice as well. Less stress is happier living.

Just be happy that Lightning Staff Tri-Focus glitching for 1shots is still in the game. Hopefully that exploit is also patched one day.

EDIT: Appealing to the mob is kinda crazy. Just because everyone's eating junk food, doesn't mean its healthy or I should do it.