Now that we have subclasses - why not just remove classes altogether?

SgtSilock · March 4

If we can already mix and match class skill lines, why do we still need the original class system at all?

Right now the only thing tying a character to their class is that you must keep one of the original class skill lines, meaning the “class” still acts as a base identity.

But if the direction of the game is increasing build freedom, I wonder whether it might eventually make sense to go even further.

What if ESO moved to a fully open skill-line system, where players simply choose three class skill lines regardless of starting class?

In other words, rather than being a Dragonknight, a Sorcerer, an Arcanist, etc., your character would simply be defined by the combination of skill lines you chose. Subclassing already moves ESO in that direction, so you might as well go all the way and give players complete freedom in their builds. After all, there's nothing more Elder Scrolls than that.

Maitsukas · March 4

Class Sets, Class Styles, Class Mastery Scripts and the upcoming Class Mastery Passive Skills in U50 are tied to the Base Classes. Having to remove the whole Base Class system from the spaghetti code is probably not a good idea.

KingArthasMenethil · March 4

I doubt classes are going to be removed. Too much is tied to it and honestly ESOs Classes are better then the main games attempts with magic so they're should stay.

TES1-5 have been terrible with spells and abilities to the point ESO doing classes actually expanded on the magic of the world then the generic stuff that we see in TES1-5.

tomofhyrule · March 4

THIS IS NOT A TES SINGLE PLAYER MAINLINE GAME

As an MMO, there does need to be some different mechanics. Classes are one of the main ways to give a handle because balance, which doesn't matter at all in moddable, single player games is important in a game where players can compete with each other.

We have seen that Subclassing was really not that good for the game's health as a whole. Did it bring some players back to the game and make TES fans happy? Yes. But did it also lead to an exodus? Also yes. No other feature got a "what do you think about this thing we added?" forum thread and questionnaire a few months after releasing, which suggests that the team was taken aback by the playerbase's reaction to Subclassing being added. And since then, we've gotten a survey to ask about how each Class feels and plays (notably stressing the unsubclassed versions), Class-by-Class rebalances to really hone in on their line themes, and soon Class Masteries specificaly to make unsubclassed players feel more rewarded.

Tandor · March 4

I wouldn't expect them to make any major changes because we now have sub-classing, given how unpopular sub-classing is for a lot of players, not least those who wish to keep the original characters "pure" in class terms.

Rungar · March 4

theyve gone back the other way focusing on class identity and abandoning subclassing rather than finishing the procedure. I guess they see subclassing, and not long term game neglect, lack of a proper expansion and weak repetative content as a reason for reduced player activity. I think itll be a total bust as players are used to subclassing now and the class identity things was mostly hype. The class identity changes add nothing for subclassing players, which is most players now, and will actually take away or at least feel like it, which means most of zos long term plans are simply irrelevent to unwanted for most players as it will weaken them and reduce their customizability theyve become comfortable with forcing them back into core classes when they might not want to do that.

they should of embraced the no class system and re-did the cp system to become a simplified specilization system that focuses on damage types and roles. This would of been a great boon for all players who, despite zos's best efforts, still prefer to make iconic classes like frost mage, ranger, wizard, rather than zos's unique vision.

that would be something everyone could play with. They are in knowhere land right now and i dont think anyone will be happy with it. I also dont think theyll even get to complete it. Microsoft games is in toilet, its only a matter of time now really as they complete their migration to AI.

lolinternet · March 4

I want to play with no identity. Just mix and match.

The lack of this option is a big problem.

Classes are fine, and the mix-and-match approach that is already halfway in place would be made out of class skills anyway, but they are by no means necessary. MMOs older than WoW understood this, and they were better off for it. ESO has demonstratively proven how unnecessary they are with the introduction of subclassing.

I do support the current revamp to bring balance between the class enjoyers and the non-class enjoyers, and the game should accommodate both types of players. "Play the way you want" isn't complete with mandatory classes. (The visual revamp is also a welcome addition.)

Classes exist in some of the single-player games, but they're essentially just presets of skill trees that are available to everyone. This would be fine in ESO.

Radiate77 · March 4

This would have been the natural next step. Yes.

Erickson9610 · March 4

A Class Change Token combined with Subclassing (or the removal of restrictions with Subclassing to allow you to change your base class) would allow you to do everything with one character. I don't consider my character to have a Class, so I'd like to be more free-form with which skills they're allowed to use.

AScarlato · March 4

Erickson9610 wrote: »

A Class Change Token combined with Subclassing (or the removal of restrictions with Subclassing to allow you to change your base class) would allow you to do everything with one character. I don't consider my character to have a Class, so I'd like to be more free-form with which skills they're allowed to use.

I really wish they would add a class change token.

Especially if they make sweeping changes to classes like they are right now. Having Magicka Blastbones removed from my Necro, who is my main, really destroyed my enjoyment of the class for me. It's not enough to suggest I just reroll my main with thousands of hours of quests completed.

Heronisan · March 4

Player count on steam is at an all time low.

Subclassing was made for casuals who played the game sparingly, all the TES fans who screamed how this would bring them back to the game, played eso for 5 minutes and then left and never looked back again, once they realised they didnt like the game to begin with

Which is why zos went into panick mode, sent out surveys and are going back to reinforcing class identity to bring back and keep the players who was allways here for 10 years and enjoyed the game the way it was.

Catering to players who was never into this game to begin with was a bad move

CatalinaWineMixer2 · March 4

Subclass needs to be removed all together. And take all of the problems it created and made worse with it. We haven't needed this for 10 years and we do not need it now.
I should not have to change my class from characters Ive had for years and prefer to play as pure class to compete yet again with the beam and every other combo with assassination. Pure classes should be stronger than subclass because they are not diluted by by being an ugly messy non thematic mess from multiple classes. Cherry picking skill lines and buffs from all of the classes with a calculator is not theory crafting.
Subclass has caused so many people to quit this game that guilds have gone under, group finder is a ghost town and PvP is on the verge of going under. It's also one of the major reason new people quickly lose interest in the game. And tired veterans are sick of trying to explain this mess to them.
Its not play how I want if my Warden is inferior to subclass or any of my other pure characters which have been wrecking balled into be excluded from end game content and leaderboards. I dont want arcanist or night blade skill lines on my warden or sorcerer either. If 1/3 or 2/3 of my skill lines are not Warden skills, that character is NOT a Warden.
More people including myself will leave this game if our characters are not restored to end game as they were before the subclassing disaster last summer. Many of the people who already left are not going to come back. They were so upset about it they even emptied their craft bags. 3/4 of the people I know who already left were in crucial support roles. And there are more of them than people realize. The rest of us are hanging on by a thread without them and without our characters. If they'd have removed subclass, they still could have redone the characters, the only difference is that we would still be able to use them in the years its going to take to fix this.

SgtSilock · March 4

Heronisan wrote: »

Player count on steam is at an all time low.

Subclassing was made for casuals who played the game sparingly, all the TES fans who screamed how this would bring them back to the game, played eso for 5 minutes and then left and never looked back again, once they realised they didnt like the game to begin with

Which is why zos went into panick mode, sent out surveys and are going back to reinforcing class identity to bring back and keep the players who was allways here for 10 years and enjoyed the game the way it was.

Catering to players who was never into this game to begin with was a bad move

I’m curious about this – are you speaking literally or exaggerating a bit? Or is this more of a community perception than something backed by numbers?

Xarc · March 4

this is maybe the next setp, but that won't happen for several years, because first everyone needs to get fully used to subclassing;

Radiate77 · March 4

Of course people came back and left shortly…
there was no new content.

You can add a million new ways to do combat, but if the content you’re fighting isn’t improved in a significant way, none of it matters.

tomofhyrule · March 4

Radiate77 wrote: »

Of course people came back and left shortly…
there was no new content.

You can add a million new ways to do combat, but if the content you’re fighting isn’t improved in a significant way, none of it matters.

So... Lep Seclusa, Exiled Redoubt, the zone of Solstice, Ossein Cage, Naj-Caldeesh, and Black Gem Foundry didn't exist?

Look, I'm really annoyed with the quality of 2025's year and the way it was done. It was less that before... if you're specifically only looking at casual things like Companions and Tales of Tribute. However, we did actually go back up to four dungeons from two the two previous years, and one of those new ones had one of the best hard modes we've had in a while.

I know that for people who are major fans of Subclassing, it's very difficult to hear that Subclassing is not liked by other people. It's even harder to consider that some people are leaving the game from it, especially if it's the one thing that brought you back.

But remember: most of the people who are talking about the population suffering play at endgame level. Endgame did technically get as much content as we have every year (1 trial and 2 dungeons), and in fact endgame dungeoners got back to the level we did in 2022 (4 dungeons). PvP endgame also kinda got what they got every year, which was... really nothing outside of a handful of RftW sets. In fact, Subclassing added to what is the big endgame activity in theorycrafting. And yet the major exodus was from the endgamers, who are not chasing Companions or Tribute clues. Most complaints are from endgame trials and endgame PvPers who are annoyed by the fact that one setup is ridiculously better than anything else, and that they're forced into it if they intend to compete.

After Subclassing released, and before the U47 patch released, we got the "How did Subclassing and basegame Scribing affect your play?" thread, which definitely was giving "post-mortem try to find out why the playerbase didn't appreciate it as much as expected," especially considering the questions were presented in a way that implied that we were expected to have liked Subclassing and it made it easier and more fun to complete content. Reading between the lines, it definitely feels like the team expected people to jump on Subclassing, for a lot of lapsed players to come back, and for everything to be wonderful... and the fact that they did that implies that that was not the case. And then, we get a whole Class survey, which notably asked for opinions of the Classes in the absence of Subclassing.

Do we have the data? No. But never before have they had to have a post-mortem on a feature they added. The post-mortems we've gotten before were from events that went poorly or for releases that were giant bugfests. But not a new feature. And nobody anywhere needs to do post-mortems on something that worked well. Logically, it looks like Subclassing was not the victory lap that it was intended to be at all, and - even though there are people who love it and will defend it to the death - that feeling is evidently not shared among the entire playerbase.

Besides, if "oh, there was just not enough content" was the entire reason for the exodus last year, then why is even less planned for this year? Especially if we're talking about endgamers, you would think that they'd fast-track more endgame stuff like dungeons to bring them back, not get rid of dungeons completely, right? Or if people didn't like Solstice as a zone, then the answer would be to make a bigger new zone the next year, not to go a year without. But that's what we have coming up this year. Instead, we're getting two years of Class reworks to rebalance everything (which also means no new Classes for at least another two years, which is definitely something that would bring players in based on precedent from every Class-based RPG ever), and now they're even talking about Class Mastery as a thing specifically for players who prefer to play without Subclassing.

Rungar · March 4

youll get to see in real time if the new class formats bring back players in droves. I dont think that will happen. I dont even think many of those who wanted class identity will even like the new identity format..when your easily offended by change.. everything offends..even upgrades.. So youll get no solidarity there.

Eso's dungeons have been poor sellers for a long time which is why they have discontinued them for now. The linear design, raid type boss mechanics. Its played out. Thats what raiders want, not elder scrolls fans. They needed to upgrade this experience a long time ago. They really should of tried my alternate model.

its too little, too late imo. I think they have largely accepted their fate based on the roadmap.

moderatelyfatman · 12:56AM

Heronisan wrote: »

Player count on steam is at an all time low.

Subclassing was made for casuals who played the game sparingly, all the TES fans who screamed how this would bring them back to the game, played eso for 5 minutes and then left and never looked back again, once they realised they didnt like the game to begin with

Which is why zos went into panick mode, sent out surveys and are going back to reinforcing class identity to bring back and keep the players who was allways here for 10 years and enjoyed the game the way it was.

Catering to players who was never into this game to begin with was a bad move

I agree with your general sentiment but not with your last statement.

Take a look at your guilds and see how many guilds these days are running prog groups in trials or PvP events. You could argue that group finder has taken this away but group finder doesn't train tanks and healers in their roles or players in general for endgame content. Likewise with PvP.

So I completely agree that focussing exclusively to newer players and casuals in the past was a terrible move. However, since most of the endgame population has moved on, ZOS has no choice but to focus on new players and casuals since that is all that is left.

This game is not made for us anymore.

Renato90085 · 11:03AM

Unlikely,too many player have left game because of this.
if you know how to read log,you can very easy notic U46 patch is only one Chapter lost half more player in all pve content

Muizer · 11:36AM

From a developer perspective Subclassing is an absolute disaster. The only explanation I can think of is that some suits leaned very heavily on the dev team to release a big feature at short notice.

The 'disaster' stems from the fact that the feature is clearly incomplete. Just the mechanical implementation allowing players to borrow skill lines from other classes. But it did not go through any testing beyond simply checking that worked. It was not tested and iterated upon with gameplay in mind. So now they are stuck with something they released that

- they don't even know if it can be made to work at all, or at what cost.
- can't be rolled back.
- touches almost every aspect of the game all at once.

It's a total nightmare. No responsible dev would have taken that gamble if you ask me.

Rungar · 11:39AM

Renato90085 wrote: »

Unlikely,too many player have left game because of this.
if you know how to read log,you can very easy notic U46 patch is only one Chapter lost half more player in all pve content

how do you draw the conclusion that subclassing is the reason and no new chapter content and declined trust in the brand due to microsoft are not major factors? Guilt by association? lol.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Of course people came back and left shortly…
there was no new content.

You can add a million new ways to do combat, but if the content you’re fighting isn’t improved in a significant way, none of it matters.

So... Lep Seclusa, Exiled Redoubt, the zone of Solstice, Ossein Cage, Naj-Caldeesh, and Black Gem Foundry didn't exist?

Look, I'm really annoyed with the quality of 2025's year and the way it was done. It was less that before... if you're specifically only looking at casual things like Companions and Tales of Tribute. However, we did actually go back up to four dungeons from two the two previous years, and one of those new ones had one of the best hard modes we've had in a while.

I know that for people who are major fans of Subclassing, it's very difficult to hear that Subclassing is not liked by other people. It's even harder to consider that some people are leaving the game from it, especially if it's the one thing that brought you back.

But remember: most of the people who are talking about the population suffering play at endgame level. Endgame did technically get as much content as we have every year (1 trial and 2 dungeons), and in fact endgame dungeoners got back to the level we did in 2022 (4 dungeons). PvP endgame also kinda got what they got every year, which was... really nothing outside of a handful of RftW sets. In fact, Subclassing added to what is the big endgame activity in theorycrafting. And yet the major exodus was from the endgamers, who are not chasing Companions or Tribute clues. Most complaints are from endgame trials and endgame PvPers who are annoyed by the fact that one setup is ridiculously better than anything else, and that they're forced into it if they intend to compete.

After Subclassing released, and before the U47 patch released, we got the "How did Subclassing and basegame Scribing affect your play?" thread, which definitely was giving "post-mortem try to find out why the playerbase didn't appreciate it as much as expected," especially considering the questions were presented in a way that implied that we were expected to have liked Subclassing and it made it easier and more fun to complete content. Reading between the lines, it definitely feels like the team expected people to jump on Subclassing, for a lot of lapsed players to come back, and for everything to be wonderful... and the fact that they did that implies that that was not the case. And then, we get a whole Class survey, which notably asked for opinions of the Classes in the absence of Subclassing.

Do we have the data? No. But never before have they had to have a post-mortem on a feature they added. The post-mortems we've gotten before were from events that went poorly or for releases that were giant bugfests. But not a new feature. And nobody anywhere needs to do post-mortems on something that worked well. Logically, it looks like Subclassing was not the victory lap that it was intended to be at all, and - even though there are people who love it and will defend it to the death - that feeling is evidently not shared among the entire playerbase.

Besides, if "oh, there was just not enough content" was the entire reason for the exodus last year, then why is even less planned for this year? Especially if we're talking about endgamers, you would think that they'd fast-track more endgame stuff like dungeons to bring them back, not get rid of dungeons completely, right? Or if people didn't like Solstice as a zone, then the answer would be to make a bigger new zone the next year, not to go a year without. But that's what we have coming up this year. Instead, we're getting two years of Class reworks to rebalance everything (which also means no new Classes for at least another two years, which is definitely something that would bring players in based on precedent from every Class-based RPG ever), and now they're even talking about Class Mastery as a thing specifically for players who prefer to play without Subclassing.

the reason why less is planned is because they dont have the budget for it and told you as much. They are being wound down but they cant tell you that. How can anyone in their right mind blame subclassing for all their woes when they had no chapter and half the company was abolished. The only thing that kept the game afloat all these years was big overland chapters. This is a classic misdirection.

class changes are and have always been low effort changes in comparison to actual content.Whats the point of changing the animations if no one sees them due to weaving? It dont make any sense. Some people may have left due to subclassing but it wasnt because they were forced into one build, because arcanists dominated endgame for two years prior to that and zos did nothing about that. Zos could of balanced assasination and that would of fixed most issues but they chose to do nothing or even identify the issue.

they jumped on class changes to appease a certain crowd, and well see how it plays out. My guess is it wont beause there is still no new chapter or major content to draw players back and people can sense when something is on its last leg.

SgtSilock · 11:51AM

Renato90085 wrote: »

Unlikely,too many player have left game because of this.
if you know how to read log,you can very easy notic U46 patch is only one Chapter lost half more player in all pve content

All because of subclassing?

I didn’t realise class identity mattered so much to players.

Renato90085 · 11:55AM

Rungar wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

Unlikely,too many player have left game because of this.
if you know how to read log,you can very easy notic U46 patch is only one Chapter lost half more player in all pve content

how do you draw the conclusion that subclassing is the reason and no new chapter content and declined trust in the brand due to microsoft are not major factors? Guilt by association? lol.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Of course people came back and left shortly…
there was no new content.

You can add a million new ways to do combat, but if the content you’re fighting isn’t improved in a significant way, none of it matters.

So... Lep Seclusa, Exiled Redoubt, the zone of Solstice, Ossein Cage, Naj-Caldeesh, and Black Gem Foundry didn't exist?

Look, I'm really annoyed with the quality of 2025's year and the way it was done. It was less that before... if you're specifically only looking at casual things like Companions and Tales of Tribute. However, we did actually go back up to four dungeons from two the two previous years, and one of those new ones had one of the best hard modes we've had in a while.

I know that for people who are major fans of Subclassing, it's very difficult to hear that Subclassing is not liked by other people. It's even harder to consider that some people are leaving the game from it, especially if it's the one thing that brought you back.

But remember: most of the people who are talking about the population suffering play at endgame level. Endgame did technically get as much content as we have every year (1 trial and 2 dungeons), and in fact endgame dungeoners got back to the level we did in 2022 (4 dungeons). PvP endgame also kinda got what they got every year, which was... really nothing outside of a handful of RftW sets. In fact, Subclassing added to what is the big endgame activity in theorycrafting. And yet the major exodus was from the endgamers, who are not chasing Companions or Tribute clues. Most complaints are from endgame trials and endgame PvPers who are annoyed by the fact that one setup is ridiculously better than anything else, and that they're forced into it if they intend to compete.

After Subclassing released, and before the U47 patch released, we got the "How did Subclassing and basegame Scribing affect your play?" thread, which definitely was giving "post-mortem try to find out why the playerbase didn't appreciate it as much as expected," especially considering the questions were presented in a way that implied that we were expected to have liked Subclassing and it made it easier and more fun to complete content. Reading between the lines, it definitely feels like the team expected people to jump on Subclassing, for a lot of lapsed players to come back, and for everything to be wonderful... and the fact that they did that implies that that was not the case. And then, we get a whole Class survey, which notably asked for opinions of the Classes in the absence of Subclassing.

Do we have the data? No. But never before have they had to have a post-mortem on a feature they added. The post-mortems we've gotten before were from events that went poorly or for releases that were giant bugfests. But not a new feature. And nobody anywhere needs to do post-mortems on something that worked well. Logically, it looks like Subclassing was not the victory lap that it was intended to be at all, and - even though there are people who love it and will defend it to the death - that feeling is evidently not shared among the entire playerbase.

Besides, if "oh, there was just not enough content" was the entire reason for the exodus last year, then why is even less planned for this year? Especially if we're talking about endgamers, you would think that they'd fast-track more endgame stuff like dungeons to bring them back, not get rid of dungeons completely, right? Or if people didn't like Solstice as a zone, then the answer would be to make a bigger new zone the next year, not to go a year without. But that's what we have coming up this year. Instead, we're getting two years of Class reworks to rebalance everything (which also means no new Classes for at least another two years, which is definitely something that would bring players in based on precedent from every Class-based RPG ever), and now they're even talking about Class Mastery as a thing specifically for players who prefer to play without Subclassing.

the reason why less is planned is because they dont have the budget for it and told you as much. They are being wound down but they cant tell you that. How can anyone in their right mind blame subclassing for all their woes when they had no chapter and half the company was abolished. The only thing that kept the game afloat all these years was big overland chapters. This is a classic misdirection.

class changes are and have always been low effort changes in comparison to actual content.Whats the point of changing the animations if no one sees them due to weaving? It dont make any sense. Some people may have left due to subclassing but it wasnt because they were forced into one build, because arcanists dominated endgame for two years prior to that and zos did nothing about that. Zos could of balanced assasination and that would of fixed most issues but they chose to do nothing or even identify the issue.

they jumped on class changes to appease a certain crowd, and well see how it plays out. My guess is it wont beause there is still no new chapter or major content to draw players back and people can sense when something is on its last leg.

umm..?because we got new content like pull wall event(u46) ,4 dlc dungeon(u45/47) and solstice(u46) is exist,and 2026 not first year microsoft own eso
also,I personally believe that the subclass only completed half of its because dev of layoffs, not because of subclass fail so they got fire.

moderatelyfatman · 12:28PM

SgtSilock wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

Unlikely,too many player have left game because of this.
if you know how to read log,you can very easy notic U46 patch is only one Chapter lost half more player in all pve content

All because of subclassing?

I didn’t realise class identity mattered so much to players.

You do know that ZOS is doing a class identity refresh this year?
Yes class identity matters to players and it matters to enough players that ZOS actually had to do something about it.

SgtSilock · 12:36PM

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

SgtSilock wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

Unlikely,too many player have left game because of this.
if you know how to read log,you can very easy notic U46 patch is only one Chapter lost half more player in all pve content

All because of subclassing?

I didn’t realise class identity mattered so much to players.

You do know that ZOS is doing a class identity refresh this year?
Yes class identity matters to players and it matters to enough players that ZOS actually had to do something about it.

I knew about the passives, but I thought they were simply meant to give players more options, not serve as a course correction..