AzuraFan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I hope Frostden DPS becomes more of a thing

In another thread, someone wanted all magicka damage to be frost. Now you want stamina to be frost. I want no frost, honestly. I've never thought that frost was a good fit for the warden. But it's there, so sure, keep it around, but not dominating the entire class.

I didn't say anything about stamina? I'm just hoping that we can make a frost warden be more than just a bit gimmicky.

AzuraFan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I hope Frostden DPS becomes more of a thing

In another thread, someone wanted all magicka damage to be frost. Now you want stamina to be frost. I want no frost, honestly. I've never thought that frost was a good fit for the warden. But it's there, so sure, keep it around, but not dominating the entire class.

I saw the other thread and didn't comment in it but I did say in my comment here that my stamden is more ice knight themed. As I said in that same post here, I want choices for people not one person dictating something for all. Arcanist's max/min stat/resource system should go to more classes. It would help with choice and rp flavor which is something that is very important to me personally.

Also, as others have pointed out and my comment does, some people want one thing, others want another. I think the max stat/min stat system is a decent compromise that most people can accept which is why I'm asking for that to be more commonly used in the reworks.

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I hope Frostden DPS becomes more of a thing

In another thread, someone wanted all magicka damage to be frost. Now you want stamina to be frost. I want no frost, honestly. I've never thought that frost was a good fit for the warden. But it's there, so sure, keep it around, but not dominating the entire class.

I agree the frost makes 0 sense on the class, they should change it to be all frost and water magic or make it all plants roots and poison themed. The double typing is so out of left field and has always been weird

Nah, I want my animal companions, and I want that to stay a major theme for the class. They take away my bear and I'm gone.

AzuraFan wrote: »

Emeratis wrote: »

I saw the other thread and didn't comment in it but I did say in my comment here that my stamden is more ice knight themed. As I said in that same post here, I want choices for people not one person dictating something for all. Arcanist's max/min stat/resource system should go to more classes. It would help with choice and rp flavor which is something that is very important to me personally.

I'm okay with frost remaining. I just don't want it to be the entire class identity. I agree that choice is best. I don't want ZOS to take away any of the current lines, or make only one line the class identity, because that will mean someone's warden will no longer be fun for them.

We're in agreement on that. I mentioned in my post before I went into my wishes for the class rework that my three wardens and my hybrid sorc/warden all have different themes/characters and I want all of them to feel good to play/viable to do more content in their rp/character builds. I have my ice knight guy, but I also have my nature mages and my tank has a more animal thematic. I just want choices and not each section/element of the class to be chained to a role. Would be nice to see skills for all roles in each branch.

I think one of the main things with Warden "feeling disjointed" is that it technically is a cobble.

In the alpha build of ESO, there were six player Classes: DK, NB, Sorc, Templar... and Warden and Battlemage. Two of those didn't make it into the game, but some of the files stayed there, along with (likely) some of the ideas. Once they decided to add a new Class to the Morrowind Chapter, they wanted to have something Morrowind-themed, but they did have a partly-finished Class that wouldn't need much work, and therefore we have Warden as is.

If I consider it that way though... well, it seems like those were the three originally planned lines too. Sure, we have a lot of Morrowind animals there, but that bear definitely was part of the original planning. The frost is very obviously from the original idea. And even the plants seem to fit more from before, with really only one of the skills being very Morrowind.

With Subclassing, we now have a way that people can play Warden to focus on any of the three lines, and the team said the rework was intended to give each line skills for each role, so anyone can play their Ranger or Cyromancer or Druid in any of the three roles (or those of us with a Skaal character can just use all three!). I don't see anything really abominable about how Warden exists as this mashup since it is totally possible to make them all make sense, and it is now also totally possible to swap out lines you don't want (and it will soon be totally possible to have any role anchored by any of those lines)

Radiate77 wrote: »

While I would love a visual overhaul of Animal Companions, honestly, each of Warden’s skill lines need one, especially skills like Polar Wind where your character makes an incredibly weird “rising” animation, and Frost Cloak with it’s strange semi-sharpness...

It’s not all bad though, Falcon Swiftness, Lotus Flower, and Secluded Grove look incredible.

I look forward to our Warden Rework coming in 6 months.

We will be able to see it earlier at the PTS in June or July, with its release already scheduled for September.

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

I wouldn’t be opposed to the other 2 skill lines be converted to ice themed tho (ice shalks and a polar bear)

To me, the warden is all about nature. From the rework graphic, it will be about the seasons. Which is more than winter. So I doubt everything is going to be ice themed. That would be pretty uncreative.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We may even see it earlier than this with the monthly "what the devs are working on" streams.

I hope we see it soon. I feel pretty good about the other stuff coming this year (story questline, solo dungeons, tomes, sage's vault, etc.). But none of it will matter to me if the reworked warden isn't fun or I lose my bear (without another cool pet to take its place, though I do like my bear).

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

What makes you think they'll remove the bear? Its the most iconic part of warden.

I figure with a rework, anything is possible. Lots of players enjoy pets, so I think there's only a slim chance the bear will go away, but I'll be happy when I know for sure.

ETA: Since subclassing, can't everyone have a bear if they want one? So it's not that iconic anymore. In fact, I'd love it if they introduced a pet that only pure wardens could use.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

IviRo wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

While I would love a visual overhaul of Animal Companions, honestly, each of Warden’s skill lines need one, especially skills like Polar Wind where your character makes an incredibly weird “rising” animation, and Frost Cloak with it’s strange semi-sharpness...

It’s not all bad though, Falcon Swiftness, Lotus Flower, and Secluded Grove look incredible.

I look forward to our Warden Rework coming in 6 months.

We will be able to see it earlier at the PTS in June or July, with its release already scheduled for September.

We may even see it earlier than this with the monthly "what the devs are working on" streams.

I hope so.

I’m interested in how they are going to rebalance the class to keep it in line with subclassing. I came back to the game after 2.5 years and am playing exclusively on my main which is a stam warden. It holds its own as a pure class but adding the NB assassination line to the warden adds so much raw power that I don’t need to focus as much on survival proving that the best defence is simply more offence. This just doesn’t feel right to me.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

What makes you think they'll remove the bear? Its the most iconic part of warden.

I figure with a rework, anything is possible. Lots of players enjoy pets, so I think there's only a slim chance the bear will go away, but I'll be happy when I know for sure.

ETA: Since subclassing, can't everyone have a bear if they want one? So it's not that iconic anymore. In fact, I'd love it if they introduced a pet that only pure wardens could use.

Personally i wouldnt be worried about bear. As the symbol of our class and one of if not the most popular skill in our trees, theyd be insane to not keep at least 1 morph intact.

In the picture for Class Identity it still has a Bear paw so unless we embody the bear in our attacks, it seems like it’s not going anywhere.

Moving any healing buffs away from gb will just either:
1. Make tanks tankier
2. Diminish the role of the healer further by making dps never need them

If anything, the animal like "feels" clunky to cast. I'd like to see the animations smoothed out, particularly cliff racer.

Radiate77 wrote: »

guarstompemoji wrote: »

Moving any healing buffs away from gb will just either:
1. Make tanks tankier
2. Diminish the role of the healer further by making dps never need them

If anything, the animal like "feels" clunky to cast. I'd like to see the animations smoothed out, particularly cliff racer.

I have no doubt that Green Balance is going to be gutted in the healing department.

It’s reigned as #1 for Healing forever.

If DK is any reference, they are going to need to add damage and tank utility to the skill line so I wonder what will be traded to do so.

Green Balance will either keep toughness on heal and continue to reign forever for healers, or it won't and it won't.

Building a support class is about collecting tools because we need to solve problems other than nails. Making everyone have 10% more max HP is an extremely valuable tool for a healer.

Emeratis wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

guarstompemoji wrote: »

Moving any healing buffs away from gb will just either:
1. Make tanks tankier
2. Diminish the role of the healer further by making dps never need them

If anything, the animal like "feels" clunky to cast. I'd like to see the animations smoothed out, particularly cliff racer.

I have no doubt that Green Balance is going to be gutted in the healing department.

It’s reigned as #1 for Healing forever.

If DK is any reference, they are going to need to add damage and tank utility to the skill line so I wonder what will be traded to do so.

Green Balance will either keep toughness on heal and continue to reign forever for healers, or it won't and it won't.

Building a support class is about collecting tools because we need to solve problems other than nails. Making everyone have 10% more max HP is an extremely valuable tool for a healer.

One healer should not have an "always play" button. War horn used to source the toughness buff and they changed it to make warden healer more desirable, but it turned into making them required. Necro similarly used to have exclusivity to colossus's major vulnerability debuff, but that now has at least 5 other sources. Toughness is the only buff/debuff in game that has one monopoly of a source, with the only other source being a selfish set in Warrior Poet set.

If toughness is the only reason that warden healer is desirable and it isn't a good healer without it, the problem is not the buff it's the fact the skills aren't good enough and are being propped up by an exclusive buff. Necro still sees plenty of play with major vuln having sources other than colossus. Toughness exclusivity isn't healthy for the game or the class. I'd rather warden heals feel fun, cool, and rewarding and not be chained to dependency on proccing a buff.

Trouble is that game balance lives under the totalitarian principle. Anything not mandatory is forbidden, anything not forbidden is mandatory.

In the subclassing world a skill line either has to be the best out of 21 at solving its particular set of problems or it has to have something uniquely valuable you pick into after you have the best one, or it is dead because you use the one that is the best instead.

Removing exclusive utility can be the difference between a skill line being an always pick and a never pick. Just ask Earthen Heart, which has only a week left to live.

Emeratis wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Emeratis wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

guarstompemoji wrote: »

Moving any healing buffs away from gb will just either:
1. Make tanks tankier
2. Diminish the role of the healer further by making dps never need them

If anything, the animal like "feels" clunky to cast. I'd like to see the animations smoothed out, particularly cliff racer.

I have no doubt that Green Balance is going to be gutted in the healing department.

It’s reigned as #1 for Healing forever.

If DK is any reference, they are going to need to add damage and tank utility to the skill line so I wonder what will be traded to do so.

Green Balance will either keep toughness on heal and continue to reign forever for healers, or it won't and it won't.

Building a support class is about collecting tools because we need to solve problems other than nails. Making everyone have 10% more max HP is an extremely valuable tool for a healer.

One healer should not have an "always play" button. War horn used to source the toughness buff and they changed it to make warden healer more desirable, but it turned into making them required. Necro similarly used to have exclusivity to colossus's major vulnerability debuff, but that now has at least 5 other sources. Toughness is the only buff/debuff in game that has one monopoly of a source, with the only other source being a selfish set in Warrior Poet set.

If toughness is the only reason that warden healer is desirable and it isn't a good healer without it, the problem is not the buff it's the fact the skills aren't good enough and are being propped up by an exclusive buff. Necro still sees plenty of play with major vuln having sources other than colossus. Toughness exclusivity isn't healthy for the game or the class. I'd rather warden heals feel fun, cool, and rewarding and not be chained to dependency on proccing a buff.

Trouble is that game balance lives under the totalitarian principle. Anything not mandatory is forbidden, anything not forbidden is mandatory.

In the subclassing world a skill line either has to be the best out of 21 at solving its particular set of problems or it has to have something uniquely valuable you pick into after you have the best one, or it is dead because you use the one that is the best instead.

Removing exclusive utility can be the difference between a skill line being an always pick and a never pick. Just ask Earthen Heart, which has only a week left to live.

It doesn't have to be like that though, and the whole point of these reworks is to attempt to equalize power and increase player choice. I personally feel with that as the design principle, archaic and choice limiting options do not have a place. We've already walked away from dk being required as tank and templar being required as healer and other things, why insist warden healer remains special and exclusive, especially when many healers do not enjoy playing warden? I also feel putting too much of warden's power budget into healer at the expense of warden dps is why we don't see many of them despite many people wishing for it. A class can only have so much overall power from a balance standpoint.

Currently the dk skill lines have taken a hit by diversifying but we also have to look to where things will be when all classes are done, which I think will put some skill lines in better spots than during the interim. It doesn't help that the interim is 1-2 years of irl time, but there are also things like class mastery passives that are coming that the devs said are intended to buffer some of that awkward period. I still feel there are better solutions if that isn't enough than keeping toughness exclusive.

It does though, because there isn't a way to "equalise power" under subclassing because any skill line that doesn't have enough concentrated power or utility just gets swapped for one that does, and only the best version of each need apply. If a class has three skill lines where none of them have enough concentrated power or utility you disregard that class as a base and it becomes dead.

This sort of system is not amenable to choice, it's the realm of calculation. That's especially obvious in DPS where Herald and Assassination are head and shoulders above any other skill line in the game especially in combination because Herald has everything but crit and Assassination has all crit all the time. (And the fact that DK has its own beam after the rework isn't going to change anything for DPS, they're still going to be the same Herald/Assassination/Ardent combo where the DK only exists to backbar Molten Whip for 15% bonus to Fatecarver or Runeblades).

DK will not get better for tanks when the other classes are reworked, it's even getting worse if you pureclass it! (And the better you were at getting value out of it before the rework the more you'll lose out.) Its only hope is that they get done over even worse. Its utility is still going to be spread over two different skill lines with worse activation conditions available for its utility and weaker versions of things it already had. Hoping that everything will be fine in 18-24 months is not a strategy, unless your desired goal is "everyone plays Arcanist because it's the only class they haven't ruined yet".