My immersion completely flew out the window: “tank,” lol.

Marronsuisse · February 18

I thought the quest was intentionally breaking the fourth wall and referencing how players play the game, since the whole event is about grouping with other players (or companions), celebrating "comradery and companionship", etc. It did surprise me at first but I thought it was cute and it fits with the event.

metheglyn · February 18

AScarlato wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder what else is "fashionable" in Tamriel right now as pertains to art. And is it the same fashion everywhere? Hard to believe the Dunmer would find the same type of art fashionable as, say, the Bretons.

With the average commoner being in villages that are often besieged by daedra and destroyed, or being conscripted into the ongoing war - I have a hard time believing most of them have the money, time, or resources to spend looking around for plays and thinking deeply about this Dreams who of course didn't even exist until now.

I would think that the population that is safe enough from danger and has the means to travel or even pay for theatre tickets is probably low.

With the amount of troubles and destruction going on in the world as they have written it, and most of it supposedly happening in the same year, it just seems like another example of how out of touch Dreams is with the world around her.

It's true that there is a lot going on, competing for the average Tamrielian's time and attention and resources. It is a bit odd how, unless they're directly involved in a quest, most npcs seem a little bit oblivious to the state of the world around them. Daggerfall has the town crier, who will keep people informed, and Rimmen has those two gossiping khajiit. There must be more examples; I just can't think of them right now.

Anyway, it's an interesting point to consider: who realistically is attending these plays?

Supreme_Atromancer · February 18

I think the story was enjoyable, and it explored an aspect of love that is worthy of the event.

But I don't like the anachronisms and think it could have been done better.

I think its also low-key topical in a sense because the signature Holy Trinity of MMO design still feels at odds with the immersion that the TES franchise promises. Having gamified stuff bleed into lore can feel like a cheapening of the mythology. I'm sure "tank" will be canonised on UESP soon enough.

No, its not all *that* serious. Yes, I still value lore and immersion, and this is just my thoughts about it.

whitecrow · February 18

metheglyn wrote: »

It's true that there is a lot going on, competing for the average Tamrielian's time and attention and resources. It is a bit odd how, unless they're directly involved in a quest, most npcs seem a little bit oblivious to the state of the world around them. Daggerfall has the town crier, who will keep people informed, and Rimmen has those two gossiping khajiit. There must be more examples; I just can't think of them right now.

I think the major city of every zone has NPCs whose dialogues update as you progress through the story. The couple in Elden Root arguing about Southpoint, the ones in Marbruk arguing about the Wilderking, etc,

metheglyn · February 18

whitecrow wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's true that there is a lot going on, competing for the average Tamrielian's time and attention and resources. It is a bit odd how, unless they're directly involved in a quest, most npcs seem a little bit oblivious to the state of the world around them. Daggerfall has the town crier, who will keep people informed, and Rimmen has those two gossiping khajiit. There must be more examples; I just can't think of them right now.

I think the major city of every zone has NPCs whose dialogues update as you progress through the story. The couple in Elden Root arguing about Southpoint, the ones in Marbruk arguing about the Wilderking, etc,

Yeah, I hear them all the time as I'm passing through, along with npcs calling out to me specifically about my various deeds; I just couldn't think of them in the moment. It's funny how quickly gossip spreads in Tamriel, and also how untouched by these major events most npcs seem. The nearest we got to hearing how a major event affected a city-dwelling npc was "Dragons! In your own homeland! What are you going to do?"

Syldras · February 20

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder what else is "fashionable" in Tamriel right now as pertains to art. And is it the same fashion everywhere? Hard to believe the Dunmer would find the same type of art fashionable as, say, the Bretons.

If it's anything like the real world, I'm very sure that the narrative traditions of different Tamrielic nations look rather diverse. Sure, there will be some archetypes that may exist, in some form, everywhere (so there might be stories that appeal to the majority of people - and the story of Polydor and Eloisa seems to be such a case, if it's successfully played, the way it was originally written, across the continent for several centuries; considering that, that Argonian director's "new, modern" version might even fail badly), but the way to tell stories, and what is considered artful or beautiful, will vary. And most of all, there would probably be differences in everything that touches on aspects like philosophy, ethics and morals.

TES lore already does show us many cultural differences, after all (the background lore is one of the things most fascinating about TES, I'd say): We have different cultural origin myths, we know about different religions on Tamriel, and also cultural varieties of the same faith (many cultures do believe in the Divines, for example, but they have different ideas of them), we've learnt about different types of music across the continent (compare the musical instruments of the Imperials with those of the Argonians, for example, or how different bard songs look in Elsweyr compared to Skyrim), we've actually already seen traditional writings of different cultures and how they also vary a lot (The Lessons of Vivec might be easier to understand for the Dunmer because they understand the metaphors and symbolism used, while a Khajiit reading it might be absolutely clueless because they didn't grow up with these figures of speech and don't know what some verse might allude to). It's a truly diverse world. So it would be surprising if they would all enjoy the same thing when it comes to theatre plays.

metheglyn wrote: »

Anyway, it's an interesting point to consider: who realistically is attending these plays?

There's a certain dissonance, isn't there? Between what we actually see of Tamriel with all those catastrophes, and what we get presented here. I think the only theater we've ever seen was the one on Summerset anyway? Which somehow makes this new lorebook feel even more like generic statements, or a generic portrayal of some type of theater director, that doesn't really relate to the world of Tamriel.

I'd loved to see something that relates to Tamriel more specifically. Also when it comes to the event quests as a whole. Making the story mostly about Mara and Sanguine is a valid idea, of course. But they could have also added something that specifically works with the different cultural traditions of Tamriel, for example. They could even have included some story about a pair of lovers overcoming some cultural barrier. That would have fit the theme of the event well.

Radiate77 · February 20

The word Tank in fantasy, is slang, for a heavily armored character. I agree with the OP that it is incredibly odd for my fantasy characters to be using modern slang to describe anything.

This feels like yet another situation where our game’s writing was co-opted to be more modern, similar to the “and stuff” post last month. Elder Scrolls have always been immersion-based, which is why Ma’iq is so entertaining. When every NPC starts sounding like Ma’iq, you’ve destroyed the charm of this IP.

Carcamongus · February 20

Syldras wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Do you really think the people of Tamriel speak English? Or German, or Spanish, or whatever language you play the game in? We might as well pretend that they're actually speaking some Tamrielic language that's completely unknown to us and that whatever we hear and read in-game is being magically translated into something our brains can understand and relate to.

Heard some peeps be yapping like this now fr. Should game chatter be sliding in like this - like, we can just rizz it up and act like it’s a dub we can lowkey mega vibe with?

What language is that? I know it's not German, as I studied it for a short while...

As for the topic at hand, I was surprised when the character referred to himself as a tank. Since the only roles I can perform are tank and bad joker, that felt rather nice. Only now that I read this discussion did it cross my mind to consider the etymology. Perhaps the other term, "meat shield", would have been more appropriate, but I'm not going to complain about the game's writing over the use of player lingo in dialogues. On the contrary, the use of that word brought two worlds closer, as the quest involved four people organized like a dungeon group of humans.

However, I understand why some people would dislike that choice of term. An idea to reconcile the writing with their views is for a lore book to be added to the game telling the story of famous NPC tanks in history, along with a short explanation on why meat shields are called tanks. That would be a nice gesture to all the human tanks out there and it'd render this issue of 4th wall or not moot.

Syldras · February 20

Carcamongus wrote: »

What language is that? I know it's not German, as I studied it for a short while...

I don't know for sure, I just see people talking like that online sometimes. I guess it's goblin language.

Nomadic_Atmoran · February 21

LunaFlora wrote: »

if Tank was not used,
would you have fully understood what the quest is about?

You might be saying more about yourself here than what you believe of others.

jaekobcaed · February 21

As someone who places a high value on immersion and believability in my RPGs, I would have to agree. Not a huge deal, it's not like my session would be soured to see that, but I will say I hope that future fourth-wall-breaking references will be largely kept away from ESO's writing.

LunaFlora · February 21

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

if Tank was not used,
would you have fully understood what the quest is about?

You might be saying more about yourself here than what you believe of others.

i was saying nothing with my comment besides that question, there is no hidden message in it.

no idea what you believe it says about me, or what you believe i believe about others

AtriaKhorist · February 21

I find it interesting that people are only bothered by the word being used.

Yes, calling it a tank is particularly egregious, but any more subtle term would've been annoying as well because the primary problem from an immersion POV isn't just the language being used but also that these group roles themselves are a game mechanic.

Reality, be it our own or that of Tamriel, doesn't have cleanly delineated roles like 'Tank' or 'DPS' no matter the label. You might get away with 'Healer', though it more likely would be a mage that can also heal next to throwing a fireball or whatever. You might have a heavily armoured knight, sure, but he's also going to dish out a lot of damage ontop of taking it well. You might have skirmishers wearing less armour, but that doesn't make their sword strikes magically more efficient than those swung by the full plate bearing warrior. Heck, any warrior in full plate would be less likely to be using a shield and instead go with a longsword or poleaxe if anything. In-universe roles and mechanical role concepts don't match more often than not in the vast majority of games, and ESO is no exception.

If I can so openly hear the mechanical construct in the character description I am instantly torn from immersion and no longer interested.

LukosCreyden · February 21

Guys, stop complaining and enjoy the wacky wahoo quirky marvel writing

Syldras · February 21

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Guys, stop complaining and enjoy the wacky wahoo quirky marvel writing

Don't forget about the very important and moral messages ESO provides: Protect the environment! Recycle, but not corpses! Don't planemeld tropical landscapes because that's unfriendly! Be nice to Argonians!

metheglyn · 12:53AM

Syldras wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Guys, stop complaining and enjoy the wacky wahoo quirky marvel writing

Recycle, but not corpses!

You see, necromancy just needs a PR refresh. They need to frame their craft as being more about conservation. Think of all the land being wasted on graveyards--with necromancy you use up those stinky corpses and preserve the landscape for, I don't know, a botanical garden.

Syldras · 2:41AM

metheglyn wrote: »

You see, necromancy just needs a PR refresh. They need to frame their craft as being more about conservation. Think of all the land being wasted on graveyards--with necromancy you use up those stinky corpses and preserve the landscape for, I don't know, a botanical garden.

You know, the aspect of recycling was the main aspect that made me become a Ritualist of the Order of the Black Worm. Mainly because it became harder and harder to find new servants since the people around Zafirbel Bay were slowly getting suspicious of my job announcements, so recycling servants seemed easier than searching for new ones. But recycling is still recycling, right? No matter the motivation - the result counts! And with a certain pride I can say that my household might be one of the most environmentally cautious ones on Vvardenfell! Even my Bosmer cares for recycling. Just differently.

metheglyn · 3:55AM

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You see, necromancy just needs a PR refresh. They need to frame their craft as being more about conservation. Think of all the land being wasted on graveyards--with necromancy you use up those stinky corpses and preserve the landscape for, I don't know, a botanical garden.

You know, the aspect of recycling was the main aspect that made me become a Ritualist of the Order of the Black Worm. Mainly because it became harder and harder to find new servants since the people around Zafirbel Bay were slowly getting suspicious of my job announcements, so recycling servants seemed easier than searching for new ones. But recycling is still recycling, right? No matter the motivation - the result counts! And with a certain pride I can say that my household might be one of the most environmentally cautious ones on Vvardenfell! Even my Bosmer cares for recycling. Just differently.

Environmentally cautious, eh? You should work that into more Worm Cult propaganda. I commend you on making the most of your resources, truly. How is the Bosmer, by the way? Haven't heard anything about him lately, and I did wonder if he had gone the way of, what was his name, Laerdor? The hair-washing guy.

Syldras · 4:24AM

metheglyn wrote: »

Environmentally cautious, eh? You should work that into more Worm Cult propaganda. I commend you on making the most of your resources, truly.

Yes, yes, we're very mindful of our ressources! We also care about our carbon footprint. I've already replaced my Dwemer car with a wooden Argonian-drawn rickshaw. Also, instead of coal, I use pamphlets of travelling theatre groups to fuel my stove now.

metheglyn wrote: »

How is the Bosmer, by the way? Haven't heard anything about him lately, and I did wonder if he had gone the way of, what was his name, Laerdor? The hair-washing guy.

You mean Larildur? No, no, the Bosmer is fine. Really.

metheglyn · 3:33PM

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Environmentally cautious, eh? You should work that into more Worm Cult propaganda. I commend you on making the most of your resources, truly.

Yes, yes, we're very mindful of our ressources! We also care about our carbon footprint. I've already replaced my Dwemer car with a wooden Argonian-drawn rickshaw. Also, instead of coal, I use pamphlets of travelling theatre groups to fuel my stove now.

Lol, hmm...I wonder if I can guess which theatre troupe pamplets those are.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

How is the Bosmer, by the way? Haven't heard anything about him lately, and I did wonder if he had gone the way of, what was his name, Laerdor? The hair-washing guy.

You mean Larildur? No, no, the Bosmer is fine. Really.

You say he's fine, but if you never replaced Larildur, his hair must be a right mess by now!

(Ok, ok, I'll stop derailing this thread now.

)