My immersion completely flew out the window: “tank,” lol.

Ratzkifal · February 17

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

Nothing screams medieval low-fantasy setting more than 21st century terminology. Whoo. :-P

Singular "they" for a person who's gender is unknown or unimportant has been a normal use case for hundreds of years. Not that the existence of any group of people is automatically politics. Setting aside that political dog whistle, Shakespeare is hardly 21st century.

I thought it was a reference to Tanlorin who is stuck in ice when you meet her. Mine still is as I haven't done the quest.

Guide said she gives rapport for pickpocketing guards so maybe was the thief.

Now that you mention it, now I'm actually kind of curious what the German translation of the game does there (or any other language for that matter).
There is no "singular they" in German, and generally the people who get upset at the use of wrong pronouns see the neutral "it" as dehumanizing - even though neuter in German isn't limited to inanimate objects as grammatical gender has nothing to do with the subject's gender, the same way colours can be warm or cold, but just because your popsicle is orange doesn't make it warm. The word for girl in German is famously neuter but that's not because girls are seen as objects, but because all diminutives (cute-ifications) are neuter. There is a neuter one for boys too that now seems archaic (Bübchen).

It's a whole thing. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending who you ask, so far all efforts to make the German language more inclusive are linguistically not-sound ideas, or potentially threaten to make the language even more complicated than it already is for people with disabilities or foreigners. Or they come with weird and undesireable consequences when you take compound nouns into consideration.

Edit: Apparently they use "ser" in German and "se" (or something along those lines) in French. Google's Ai summary uses the feminine "sie" in German btw.

Syldras · February 17

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Now that you mention it, now I'm actually kind of curious what the German translation of the game does there (or any other language for that matter).

If I don't remember wrong, it was generic masculine. What I can say was that it was no neologism because I would have noticed (but whether it was "ein Dieb" oder "eine Diebin" - honestly, it wasn't interesting enough to remember).

Malyore · February 17

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

Nothing screams medieval low-fantasy setting more than 21st century terminology. Whoo. :-P

Singular "they" for a person who's gender is unknown or unimportant has been a normal use case for hundreds of years. Not that the existence of any group of people is automatically politics. Setting aside that political dog whistle, Shakespeare is hardly 21st century.

I thought it was a reference to Tanlorin who is stuck in ice when you meet her. Mine still is as I haven't done the quest.

Guide said she gives rapport for pickpocketing guards so maybe was the thief.

That's actually a really funny interpretation. If it's accurate, that alone made the quest a bit more entertaining to me.

tsaescishoeshiner · February 17

I didn't mind it in the quest, as it makes sense for what someone might call a sturdy, armored warrior, but it's certainly something that could easily be misused. It's very easy to imagine different fantasy etymology for the word "tank" than what we use in real life. It makes sense that the Undaunted would have a word for that general role.

They probably could have written some canon terms for dungeon group roles through the Undaunted characters or lorebooks.

I think it's fine if they use certain modern terminology as long as it fits the tone and doesn't seem out of place. That's subjective, but I don't think it's fair to chase them down for any term invented in, like, the 20th century as being inappropriate lol. The characters don't at all speak in a way that resembles language from hundreds of years ago as it is, so it's meant to be far, far more similar to modern language than not.

spartaxoxo · February 17

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

No, sorry.

Academics deducting points because of style guides is nothing new. Academics also tried to fight against singular "you," a long, long time ago. Didn't change it from being a normal use case. Didn't change society from using it that way anyway. People have been saying things like "Someone left their shoes here," for hundreds of years. And the storied and robust usage is why there's even room for debate.

They as a singular term was easy to use because of its long and common history. No need for hordes of people to dig through scores of old literature for mistakes. The reason it was a common deduction until it became a debate is because it was common for people to use it. There would be no need for a formalized rule for something people were not doing. Academics use style guides to enforce rigid confirmation to "correct," speech, although sometimes those style guides (and dictionaries) are resistant to genuine change in speech as well.

Kallykat · February 17

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

Nothing screams medieval low-fantasy setting more than 21st century terminology. Whoo. :-P

Singular "they" for a person who's gender is unknown or unimportant has been a normal use case for hundreds of years. Not that the existence of any group of people is automatically politics. Setting aside that political dog whistle, Shakespeare is hardly 21st century.

No, sorry.

My first Master's was in English Literature. Six years of wasting my time reading very old texts and stories that no rational person would ever care about. Enjoyed the journey, though my Master Degrees in Accounting and Business Administration have served me better fiscally.

It was not a normal use case. It was never a normal use case. The normal use case was "he" in general. Once you knew the subject was a woman, then you used "she." Otherwise, "he" was the default. Gender neutral was "it." There was no they/them. That's a 21st century thing. Every now and then a writer messed up his or her grammar and used a plural pronoun to refer to a singular entity, but that was either a grammar mistake or (in the case of Shakespeare) an effort to rhyme / maintain meter. Even back in 2010 when I earned my degree, doing that would get you points deducted. Because it was a typo.

Now when I was in school, the "singular they" was a debate topic. "He" as the general default was seen as offensive, so they tried "she." But "she" only ever refers to woman, so it was actually less inclusive. So they tried "s/he," but no one knew how to pronounce it. Then they went with oscillating pronouns, but then a police officer was female in parapgraph one and male in paragraph two and female again in paragraph three. Made no sense. Then they tried "singular they," but it violated noun/pronoun agreement and academics didn't like that. So they tried to making everything plural, but that felt stilted (Sorcerers are powerful spellcasters. They have mighty magic. What? Oh, what happens if a sorcerer gets silenced. When sorcerers get silenced, they... look, I can't talk about one sorcerer. Why? BECAUSE. You're putting me in a corner here, zer.).

It went on and on. The academics were passionately feuding when I graduated. Good riddance.

Point being, if the "singular they" was a storied tradition of English with a normal use case, that debate WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN HAPPENING. You are woefully misinformed.

Also, no... I'm not trying to humble-brag by mentioning my degrees. I don't consider spending years in English Major poverty as I trained to be an accountant anything to brag about, but people seem to think that when I talk about this and no, I am not bragging. It was a bad life decision that I regretted for literally years, haha.

Also, back on-topic... that quest made me think about ALL of the above. It took me completely out of the moment. But again, it was a small thing. This event was great. I hope more are like this. A lot more.

Edit addition: also, I'm not joking about the academics debating. It was weird and it sucked. Depending on the professor, you had to change your entire use of pronouns and sentence structures. Also, none of them would warn you. You just had to feel each one of them out. I loathed the shifting goalposts.

Edit addition addition: fixed two typos. I'm sloppy in my older age, but I feel like I should tone down the typos in a post where I mention having an English degree. You know, out of a sense of propriety. Guffaw!

For what it's worth, this is also my recollection of the development of pronoun arguments, at least in my lifetime.

Reading this also reminded me of finding a document I created for my classroom back when I was fresh out of college. I found it just a couple years ago, and I had swapped male and female pronouns throughout in a misguided effort to avoid overuse of the general masculine pronoun. Of course, it was just confusing for my students, and I laugh at it now.

Pronoun debates really have been a thing for a long while. Personally, there are occasions in which I can wink at a singular they, but there are cases in which I cannot. When using "they" actually convolutes the meaning of the sentence and makes the antecedent unclear, then the writer is overcompensating, in my opinion.

Kallykat · February 17

I don't mind an occasional quest that winks at the audience, especially when it's just a light-hearted holiday quest, as long as it's written with finesse. However, the use of "tank" here clearly directly references video game strategy. It would have been easy to swap that one word for something more subtle. Sometimes it feels like modern writers don't think much of their audience. We don't need to be hit over the head to catch on to what you're doing.

That said, even if something is too subtle to pick up on during the initial encounter, that's okay! One of the reasons I became so engrossed in ES lore to begin with was because I enjoyed reading posts and watching videos in which other players analyzed the details, made connections, and theorized about the mysteries in the games. Nuance and uncertainty keep the stories circling back in my mind. Thinking that maybe there was something I missed encourages me to replay a storyline with another character.

Hitting me over the head does not.

emilyhyoyeon · February 17

Ratzkifal wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

Nothing screams medieval low-fantasy setting more than 21st century terminology. Whoo. :-P

Singular "they" for a person who's gender is unknown or unimportant has been a normal use case for hundreds of years. Not that the existence of any group of people is automatically politics. Setting aside that political dog whistle, Shakespeare is hardly 21st century.

I thought it was a reference to Tanlorin who is stuck in ice when you meet her. Mine still is as I haven't done the quest.

Guide said she gives rapport for pickpocketing guards so maybe was the thief.

Now that you mention it, now I'm actually kind of curious what the German translation of the game does there (or any other language for that matter).
There is no "singular they" in German, and generally the people who get upset at the use of wrong pronouns see the neutral "it" as dehumanizing - even though neuter in German isn't limited to inanimate objects as grammatical gender has nothing to do with the subject's gender, the same way colours can be warm or cold, but just because your popsicle is orange doesn't make it warm. The word for girl in German is famously neuter but that's not because girls are seen as objects, but because all diminutives (cute-ifications) are neuter. There is a neuter one for boys too that now seems archaic (Bübchen).

It's a whole thing. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending who you ask, so far all efforts to make the German language more inclusive are linguistically not-sound ideas, or potentially threaten to make the language even more complicated than it already is for people with disabilities or foreigners. Or they come with weird and undesireable consequences when you take compound nouns into consideration.

Edit: Apparently they use "ser" in German and "se" (or something along those lines) in French. Google's Ai summary uses the feminine "sie" in German btw.

Yeah in the Tanlorin specific contexts (as well as a few others IIRC, like the quest with the Watchling in Blackwood), the German localization uses ser. From what I can tell, the translation only uses the ser forms when it's obviously intended for the character/context; it doesn't use it in contexts like @ Syldras mentions about the thief.

xylena · February 17

It doesn't matter whether it's "technically accurate" or not because referencing cultural inventions of the modern world breaks immersion, like renaming that DK skill to "Wing Buffet."

Gabriel_H · February 17

I mean ...

*shrug*

tomofhyrule · February 17

Kallykat wrote: »

Pronoun debates really have been a thing for a long while. Personally, there are occasions in which I can wink at a singular they, but there are cases in which I cannot. When using "they" actually convolutes the meaning of the sentence and makes the antecedent unclear, then the writer is overcompensating, in my opinion.

Not that I want to wade into this debate, but I will say there were a few times in the High Isle/Galen story with Frii that we got dialogue along the lines of "they need to take them to them" and were referring to three different people/things that just made some of the dialogue an exercise in confusion.

Vaqual · February 17

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I mean ...

*shrug*

The point is that there is a world/immersive-layer and a game/technical-layer.
Of course it is fine to reference player roles as such in the UI when it is helpful or necessary. Although it is pretty much never necessary and often just convenience.
Dialogues and flavor texts (including NPC/location/set/ability names) should stay true to the fantasy. Words that do not fit the world lore just tend to stand out negatively.

Of course you can shoehorn any nonesense in, like the Super Adventure Box in GW2. My personal impression is, that many play ESO for the setting, and precisely because it doesn't give the same vibes as its "visually challenged" main competitors. Not every transgression is equally offensive, but whether it is now just a poorly chosen word, anime trash or Marvel-humour, there is an annoying tendency for this type of stuff to quickly become pseudo-canonized. And once the charm of the world building is gone, well, it is gone.

whitecrow · February 17

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

Nothing screams medieval low-fantasy setting more than 21st century terminology. Whoo. :-P

Singular "they" for a person who's gender is unknown or unimportant has been a normal use case for hundreds of years. Not that the existence of any group of people is automatically politics. Setting aside that political dog whistle, Shakespeare is hardly 21st century.

It is most likely the character knew the sex of the pickpocket.

Syldras · February 17

xylena wrote: »

It doesn't matter whether it's "technically accurate" or not because referencing cultural inventions of the modern world breaks immersion, like renaming that DK skill to "Wing Buffet."

"buffet" also means "strike". But yes, naming it exactly like this (because "funny" - and then even pointing it out in the news article several times) instead of using a word with no double meaning didn't really help. Especially since many people who are not native English speakers (but still play the English version because there's none in their own language) will only be aware of the "funny" meaning.

whitecrow · February 17

Kallykat wrote: »

I don't mind an occasional quest that winks at the audience, especially when it's just a light-hearted holiday quest, as long as it's written with finesse. However, the use of "tank" here clearly directly references video game strategy. It would have been easy to swap that one word for something more subtle. Sometimes it feels like modern writers don't think much of their audience. We don't need to be hit over the head to catch on to what you're doing.

Yep. It's not just that the true meaning of the word seems too modern, it's that in this context it's gamer slang.

Syldras · February 17

Kallykat wrote: »

It would have been easy to swap that one word for something more subtle. Sometimes it feels like modern writers don't think much of their audience. We don't need to be hit over the head to catch on to what you're doing. That said, even if something is too subtle to pick up on during the initial encounter, that's okay!

Since I'm not sure how many people might have missed it because it was so crowded during the first event days and it was easy to overlook - the event introduced this item, with two copies of it being in game, one near Kuzam-jo, and the other one upstairs in the Belkarth tavern next to the theatre group:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Reigniting_Love_for_Contemporary_Audiences

Of course we can't say 100% whether it's only shows the fictional author's view (in this case the Argonian theatre director) or is meant as a general message. But since it fits this very discussion, the book makes 3 main declarations:
- Things need to be kept easy since the commoners must also be able to understand everything, as they also deserve art.
- Message is more important than character writing and avoiding plot holes.
- People who criticize character writing and plot holes are an angry mob screaming mindless drivel to elevate themselves and obviously not smart enough to see that the message is what matters.

Make of that what you will.

Vaqual · February 17

Syldras wrote: »

Kallykat wrote: »

It would have been easy to swap that one word for something more subtle. Sometimes it feels like modern writers don't think much of their audience. We don't need to be hit over the head to catch on to what you're doing. That said, even if something is too subtle to pick up on during the initial encounter, that's okay!

Since I'm not sure how many people might have missed it because it was so crowded during the first event days and it was easy to overlook - the event introduced this item, with two copies of it being in game, one near Kuzam-jo, and the other one upstairs in the Belkarth tavern next to the theatre group:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Reigniting_Love_for_Contemporary_Audiences

Of course we can't say 100% whether it's only shows the fictional author's view (in this case the Argonian theatre director) or is meant as a general message. But since it fits this very discussion, the book makes 3 main declarations:
- Things need to be kept easy since the commoners must also be able to understand everything, as they also deserve art.
- Message is more important than character writing and avoiding plot holes.
- People who criticize character writing and plot holes are an angry mob screaming mindless drivel to elevate themselves and obviously not smart enough to see that the message is what matters.

Make of that what you will.

In the age of individualism and diversity™, the generalization of the audience might be the most remarkable little nugget of irony.

Syldras · February 17

Vaqual wrote: »

In the age of individualism and diversity™, the generalization of the audience might be the most remarkable little nugget of irony.

The most interesting thing to me is that, when ESO released not even fully 12 years ago, the writing was still more meaningful, complex, interesting, touching on some deeper topics sometimes, invoking real emotions, having nice vast lore, characters were less clichéd, I even have the impression that the language style was a bit more complex.

ESO was always a mass market product, and back then they seemed to have seen what they released as very suitable for that.

Not even just in 2014, but it clearly also applied to the Morrowind-CWC-Summerset story arc, and Elsweyr and Greymoor were also still on a much higher level than today's writing. Greymoor relased in summer 2020, that's not even 6 years ago.

What has changed in those few years? Why is it assumed the audience today could not handle this writing style - this complexity, this speech style, this way to present characters, world and background lore - anymore?

Kallykat · February 17

Syldras wrote: »

Kallykat wrote: »

It would have been easy to swap that one word for something more subtle. Sometimes it feels like modern writers don't think much of their audience. We don't need to be hit over the head to catch on to what you're doing. That said, even if something is too subtle to pick up on during the initial encounter, that's okay!

Since I'm not sure how many people might have missed it because it was so crowded during the first event days and it was easy to overlook - the event introduced this item, with two copies of it being in game, one near Kuzam-jo, and the other one upstairs in the Belkarth tavern next to the theatre group:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Reigniting_Love_for_Contemporary_Audiences

Of course we can't say 100% whether it's only shows the fictional author's view (in this case the Argonian theatre director) or is meant as a general message. But since it fits this very discussion, the book makes 3 main declarations:
- Things need to be kept easy since the commoners must also be able to understand everything, as they also deserve art.
- Message is more important than character writing and avoiding plot holes.
- People who criticize character writing and plot holes are an angry mob screaming mindless drivel to elevate themselves and obviously not smart enough to see that the message is what matters.

Make of that what you will.

Yes, I did notice that in-game text. Thanks for the reminder. This part seems particularly pointed:
"Dreams: I think so often about the sensibilities of contemporary audiences. Gone are the years of quietly interrogating a play's themes and values. Now, I often find rabbles of theatergoers huddled outside playhouses, wrestling not with the work itself, but with a perceived merit measured against such mindless drivel as plot holes and unlikable characters."

Then again, maybe they were just trying to portray a pretentious theater director?

metheglyn · February 17

Kallykat wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Kallykat wrote: »

It would have been easy to swap that one word for something more subtle. Sometimes it feels like modern writers don't think much of their audience. We don't need to be hit over the head to catch on to what you're doing. That said, even if something is too subtle to pick up on during the initial encounter, that's okay!

Since I'm not sure how many people might have missed it because it was so crowded during the first event days and it was easy to overlook - the event introduced this item, with two copies of it being in game, one near Kuzam-jo, and the other one upstairs in the Belkarth tavern next to the theatre group:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Reigniting_Love_for_Contemporary_Audiences

Of course we can't say 100% whether it's only shows the fictional author's view (in this case the Argonian theatre director) or is meant as a general message. But since it fits this very discussion, the book makes 3 main declarations:
- Things need to be kept easy since the commoners must also be able to understand everything, as they also deserve art.
- Message is more important than character writing and avoiding plot holes.
- People who criticize character writing and plot holes are an angry mob screaming mindless drivel to elevate themselves and obviously not smart enough to see that the message is what matters.

Make of that what you will.

Yes, I did notice that in-game text. Thanks for the reminder. This part seems particularly pointed:
"Dreams: I think so often about the sensibilities of contemporary audiences. Gone are the years of quietly interrogating a play's themes and values. Now, I often find rabbles of theatergoers huddled outside playhouses, wrestling not with the work itself, but with a perceived merit measured against such mindless drivel as plot holes and unlikable characters."

Then again, maybe they were just trying to portray a pretentious theater director?

I do think it's more that they wanted to portray a pretentious theater director than they wanted to comment on the players. Dreams-in-Scenes' remarks do come across very much like the pure artist who knows better than anyone else how art should be created and viewed, and the interviewer aids and abets her notions. It also makes me think of the difference between what an artist intends and what an audience might take away from the art.

Syldras · February 17

Kallykat wrote: »

Then again, maybe they were just trying to portray a pretentious theater director?

Perhaps. I won't judge that here. I still wanted to mention it because it touches on the very topic of how writers/artists may present their ideas and stories, and how they may interact with the public, and shows us one way to handle this through this Argonian theatre director Dreams-in-scenes.

Which actually makes me worry a bit for Dreams' theatre troupe. Showing no interest in what the theatergoers think, even dismissing them with insults and accusations, even making this public through an interview, will only anger the theatregoers. And then they won't protest before the theatre anymore, but just stop buying tickets and not visit it anymore. No tickets - no revenue. The theatre will need to close. Which means that Dreams-in-screnes and everyone else, the writers, the actors, the stage constructors and backdrop painters, will not get any gold and will need to beg on the streets or become dishwashers at the local tavern to be able to feed themselves.

AScarlato · February 17

Kallykat wrote: »

Then again, maybe they were just trying to portray a pretentious theater director?

Well, that's the thing. They could be taking a swipe at their critics while hiding behind the plausible deniability of Dreams just being a fictional character.

Of course given in the same event they decided to break the 4th wall already, I would not be all that convinced personally - but it would be an easy enough claim to make.

I think I read somewhere that the game's primary lore director left the company at some point, so it could just be they are going in a new (and IMO worse) direction to appeal to a broad audience of gamers who don't really think as much about setting/lore as some of us.

ESO_Nightingale · February 17

I dont know if id quite agree with most of the points being made here but i really dislike the inclusion of tanlorin in the game for the whole reason of it seemingly being about pronouns.

Syldras · February 17

metheglyn wrote: »

Dreams-in-Scenes' remarks do come across very much like the pure artist who knows better than anyone else how art should be created and viewed, and the interviewer aids and abets her notions.

The "interviewer" commenting exaggeratedly positive on anything Dreams-in-scenes says makes it look like she wrote the whole thing herself (There's also no interviewer nearby anywhere, and wouldn't this document normally be in the hands of the person who led the interview?).

metheglyn wrote: »

It also makes me think of the difference between what an artist intends and what an audience might take away from the art.

I think it's interesting that Dreams-in-scenes seems to be completely lacking awareness about this aspect. It's always about the message she wants to spread, completely ignoring that this message might not land with everyone, perhaps not even with most people. And then she's even insulting people for not caring about this message - perhaps it's not the public's fault, but the message might not be as grand, interesting or even understandable as she believes? As I think normally theatregoers enjoy getting interesting insights and learning something from the play they attended. So if they reject the message it's probably because they find it so mundane that it's boring, generally irrelevant for their lives, or just plain stupid, illogical and flawed.

And honestly, that's probably unavoidable, especially if Dreams-in-Scenes might be very centered on her own world view, without thinking about the fact that people have all kinds of different life experiences, different morals and beliefs, and also a different cultural background. Even if fast-travel in game makes it feel different, Tamriel is a huge continent and many people, especially the commoners, will not be able to travel much, so they're mostly influenced by their culture in their beliefs and ways of thinking. So a Dunmer from the far east of Tamriel, the people from the northernmost shores of Skyrim, a Breton islander from the Systres, or a Redguard from a desert town in the Alik'r will care for completely different things and have completely different opinions and views. And of course that also influences how they'd view Dreams-in-Scenes' plays and the messages she tries to proclaim with them.

Frayton · February 17

Syldras wrote: »

What has changed in those few years? Why is it assumed the audience today could not handle this writing style - this complexity, this speech style, this way to present characters, world and background lore - anymore?

Maybe it's not about us. Maybe it's something as simple as the original ESO writers are gone.

metheglyn · February 17

Syldras wrote: »

Kallykat wrote: »

Then again, maybe they were just trying to portray a pretentious theater director?

Perhaps. I won't judge that here. I still wanted to mention it because it touches on the very topic of how writers/artists may present their ideas and stories, and how they may interact with the public, and shows us one way to handle this through this Argonian theatre director Dreams-in-scenes.

Which actually makes me worry a bit for Dreams' theatre troupe. Showing no interest in what the theatergoers think, even dismissing them with insults and accusations, even making this public through an interview, will only anger the theatregoers. And then they won't protest before the theatre anymore, but just stop buying tickets and not visit it anymore. No tickets - no revenue. The theatre will need to close. Which means that Dreams-in-screnes and everyone else, the writers, the actors, the stage constructors and backdrop painters, will not get any gold and will need to beg on the streets or become dishwashers at the local tavern to be able to feed themselves.

I thought you wanted darker story telling.

It would be interesting to see the theater troupe at different levels of success in game, if they ever make a reappearance.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Dreams-in-Scenes' remarks do come across very much like the pure artist who knows better than anyone else how art should be created and viewed, and the interviewer aids and abets her notions.

The "interviewer" commenting exaggeratedly positive on anything Dreams-in-scenes says makes it look like she wrote the whole thing herself (There's also no interviewer nearby anywhere, and wouldn't this document normally be in the hands of the person who led the interview?).

If the interview got printed (and since there are multiple copies at the event, it seems it did) there's no reason the interviewer should still be hanging around. Actually, since there are a couple of different copies, it occurs to me that it's an old interview that Dreams-in-Scenes takes everywhere she goes, leaving copies behind, because she thinks it makes her look good. The interviewer certainly came across as a big fan of Dreams, so it was unlikely the interview was ever going to be anything but a glowing representation of the subject. Not sure if Tamriel has the concept of journalistic integrity down very well.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It also makes me think of the difference between what an artist intends and what an audience might take away from the art.

I think it's interesting that Dreams-in-scenes seems to be completely lacking awareness about this aspect. It's always about the message she wants to spread, completely ignoring that this message might not land with everyone, perhaps not even with most people. And then she's even insulting people for not caring about this message - perhaps it's not the public's fault, but the message might not be as grand, interesting or even understandable as she believes? As I think normally theatregoers enjoy getting interesting insights and learning something from the play they attended. So if they reject the message it's probably because they find it so mundane that it's boring, generally irrelevant for their lives, or just plain stupid, illogical and flawed.

The interview definitely makes her sound like she's oblivious to any type of criticism--constructive or otherwise. She sets herself up as final arbiter, and that's all there is to it. She might not even be capable of seeing otherwise.

Syldras wrote: »

And honestly, that's probably unavoidable, especially if Dreams-in-Scenes might be very centered on her own world view, without thinking about the fact that people have all kinds of different life experiences, different morals and beliefs, and also a different cultural background. Even if fast-travel in game makes it feel different, Tamriel is a huge continent and many people, especially the commoners, will not be able to travel much, so they're mostly influenced by their culture in their beliefs and ways of thinking. So a Dunmer from the far east of Tamriel, the people from the northernmost shores of Skyrim, a Breton islander from the Systres, or a Redguard from a desert town in the Alik'r will care for completely different things and have completely different opinions and views. And of course that also influences how they'd view Dreams-in-Scenes' plays and the messages she tries to proclaim with them.

That makes me wonder about the play we assisted with. Is it a story well-known throughout all of Tamriel? Would it play equally well in every region? Seems unlikely. It certainly does well at the Hearts Week festival, though.

Syldras · February 17

metheglyn wrote: »

I thought you wanted darker story telling. It would be interesting to see the theater troupe at different levels of success in game, if they ever make a reappearance.

Darker, but not "threatre group goes bankrupt due to their incompetent selfish director and now works as dishwashers at the Two Golden Arches tavern in Daggerfall" dark

But who knows, maybe Dreams-in-Scenes reappears as the new super-evil super-villain in the next story...

metheglyn wrote: »

If the interview got printed (and since there are multiple copies at the event, it seems it did) there's no reason the interviewer should still be hanging around.

You're correct, I already forgot about the second copy near Kuzam-jo.

metheglyn wrote: »

That makes me wonder about the play we assisted with. Is it a story well-known throughout all of Tamriel? Would it play equally well in every region? Seems unlikely. It certainly does well at the Hearts Week festival, though.

It's the story of Polydor and Eloisa which is a really old myth that's traditionally shown on Heart's Day since centuries and well-known in all of or most of Tamriel. We don't know many details about the story, but all mentions before this current event questline said it was a tragic play with a sad ending. And Dreams-in-Scenes now reworked it to have a happy ending, probably because she thinks that appeals to the commoners more.

As a real world comparison: It's basically like rewriting Romeo and Juliet to have a happy ending so in the end they marry and live happily ever after. Based on the idea that the modern audiences would not find the original story with the tragic ending appealing anymore (note the name of that lorebook: "Reigniting Love for Contemporary Audiences"). Or more precisely: Basically stripping the narration of all sad and tragic aspects and making it some fun, nice happy story instead.

AScarlato · February 17

Syldras wrote: »

As a real world comparison: It's basically like rewriting Romeo and Juliet to have a happy ending so in the end they marry and live happily ever after.

As if I could like Dreams any less....

metheglyn · February 17

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That makes me wonder about the play we assisted with. Is it a story well-known throughout all of Tamriel? Would it play equally well in every region? Seems unlikely. It certainly does well at the Hearts Week festival, though.

It's the story of Polydor and Eloisa which is a really old myth that's traditionally shown on Heart's Day since centuries and well-known in all of or most of Tamriel. We don't know many details about the story, but all mentions before this current event questline said it was a tragic play with a sad ending. And Dreams-in-Scenes now reworked it to have a happy ending, probably because she thinks that appeals to the commoners more.

In the interview she's a bit cagey about how much of the play they're putting on is original and how much takes from the old tale. She mentions turning it into a "fashionable action piece" and certainly the play we see in game has a happy ending. But anyway, if it is such a well-known tale, it makes her comment about the commoners seem even more out of touch. I would think they could enjoy it in its original form and wouldn't need it made "fashionable" to grab their interest.

I wonder what else is "fashionable" in Tamriel right now as pertains to art. And is it the same fashion everywhere? Hard to believe the Dunmer would find the same type of art fashionable as, say, the Bretons.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think Dreams-in-Scenes comes across as a condescending jerk.

AScarlato · February 17

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder what else is "fashionable" in Tamriel right now as pertains to art. And is it the same fashion everywhere? Hard to believe the Dunmer would find the same type of art fashionable as, say, the Bretons.

With the average commoner being in villages that are often besieged by daedra and destroyed, or being conscripted into the ongoing war - I have a hard time believing most of them have the money, time, or resources to spend looking around for plays and thinking deeply about this Dreams who of course didn't even exist until now.

I would think that the population that is safe enough from danger and has the means to travel or even pay for theatre tickets is probably low.

With the amount of troubles and destruction going on in the world as they have written it, and most of it supposedly happening in the same year, it just seems like another example of how out of touch Dreams is with the world around her.