Lack of Clarity on Communication Promises on General Forums

Desiato · February 5

Desiato wrote: »

It's not a critical issue so it's not a big deal to me. I appreciate that Kevin is looking into it. He'll get back to us when there's an update. There's no need for further explanation until then.

If it's a big deal to you, so be it.

DeathandDebauchery · February 5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They obviously can tell the community no. And they obviously don't need to respond to every thread even popular ones. But they had said they would respond to that thread and then did not. And it was something the community could have used clarification on because there was confusion as to why the change was implemented in the way that it was. Given the confusion, big impact to play, and the statement we'd get answers, it is disappointing that we didn't get them and erodes confidence that communication will improve outside of the main issues that they already wanted to focus on.

I think this is the rub. In my mind, Kevin's answer early today is the appropriate way for the team to handle backpeddling: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8428191#Comment_8428191

Straight up ghosting your community is not.

twisttop138 · February 5

It's almost like this isn't the first "we're going to be more transparent and communicate more" era on these forums. Like the second verse is the same as the first. I mean, to be fair, after 11 years what did we expect? It's like an abusive relationship. I swear he promised he'd change.

spartaxoxo · February 5

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They obviously can tell the community no. And they obviously don't need to respond to every thread even popular ones. But they had said they would respond to that thread and then did not. And it was something the community could have used clarification on because there was confusion as to why the change was implemented in the way that it was. Given the confusion, big impact to play, and the statement we'd get answers, it is disappointing that we didn't get them and erodes confidence that communication will improve outside of the main issues that they already wanted to focus on.

I think this is the rub. In my mind, Kevin's answer early today is the appropriate way for the team to handle backpeddling: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8428191#Comment_8428191

Straight up ghosting your community is not.

Yeah. This is good communication that I'm really happy to see. It may not be the most desirable outcome but at least there's an acknowledgement and explanation. I really like that post even though it's not a yes. For me, these kind of post are also needed and make a much better impression.

DeathandDebauchery · February 6

twisttop138 wrote: »

It's almost like this isn't the first "we're going to be more transparent and communicate more" era on these forums. Like the second verse is the same as the first. I mean, to be fair, after 11 years what did we expect? It's like an abusive relationship. I swear he promised he'd change.

I'm choosing to be optimistic about ZoS right now, but now that we have hit over a full week since the initial 24 hour promise and there has been zero acknowledgement of the issue again or the aggressive moderation despite this thread staying on the front page for that entire time, I am starting to get concerned.

twisttop138 · February 6

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

It's almost like this isn't the first "we're going to be more transparent and communicate more" era on these forums. Like the second verse is the same as the first. I mean, to be fair, after 11 years what did we expect? It's like an abusive relationship. I swear he promised he'd change.

I'm choosing to be optimistic about ZoS right now, but now that we have hit over a full week since the initial 24 hour promise and there has been zero acknowledgement of the issue again or the aggressive moderation despite this thread staying on the front page for that entire time, I am starting to get concerned.

I'm also optimistic. I can see the past and still hope they come out on top. It's my sincere hope that they turn a corner. If they don't though, I don't think many will be surprised. Now to be absolutely fair, the comment in question was not some game breaking issue or a money thing or an exploit. I would be more concerned. The changing of the comment to remove the promise of an update was... unnecessary and brings a bad look to what has been truly improving communication. Around things they said they would, anyway. Let's wait and see.

AlienatedGoat · February 6

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

It's almost like this isn't the first "we're going to be more transparent and communicate more" era on these forums. Like the second verse is the same as the first. I mean, to be fair, after 11 years what did we expect? It's like an abusive relationship. I swear he promised he'd change.

I'm choosing to be optimistic about ZoS right now, but now that we have hit over a full week since the initial 24 hour promise and there has been zero acknowledgement of the issue again or the aggressive moderation despite this thread staying on the front page for that entire time, I am starting to get concerned.

I also choose to stay optimistic, however I'm seeing ZOS take a lot of half-steps, particularly in regards to communication, transparency and community action. While I do acknowledge that some progress has been made in the past year, there is still a long way to go to get where we need to be. Communication is still slow and sparse, transparency is still a bit opaque and community action is seemingly cherry-picked.

ZOS must let go of the old ways of handling these things and accept that the methods they have used over the past 13 years have not worked. The fact that they don't work is evident in the game and community being in the state they are in today.

ZOS_Kevin · February 6

Wanted to follow up here. The communication drop off is on me, so apologies on that. We are working on getting more info here internally and forgot to follow up in the locked thread. We are still looking into this, along with several other issues happening at the moment. The intention was not to shut down communication. We are looking to get an update out soon.

MincMincMinc · February 6

This pts cycle surely has been better for communication. Before it was always just screaming into the void hoping someone at zos even read a comment.....then decided to go ahead and bring it forward to be worked on......then whether or not they implemented it properly. Now at least we see ideas being heard and accepted/shotdown.

The only big issue now is because there is more communication people flock to the PTS to give their 2 cents on random topics not related to the PTS. For example look at all the "warden or werewolf I wish" threads. Now we are on week 4 of the PTS where alot of animation and sound effect feedback has been given, but not much action has been talked about for things like the two handed skill line. Combat wise two hander has needed changes for years, but sadly we are only seeing animation changes so far in a very unpolished way.

Destai · February 6

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Wanted to follow up here. The communication drop off is on me, so apologies on that. We are working on getting more info here internally and forgot to follow up in the locked thread. We are still looking into this, along with several other issues happening at the moment. The intention was not to shut down communication. We are looking to get an update out soon.

Thanks. Regardless if it's intended, locking multiple threads on it is shutting down the communication. I don't know how else one could interpret it. It just unnecessarily escalates the vibe, especially when the thread was pretty civil. It really just comes across as micromanagement.

Anyways, looking forward to an update. Even on PS, the guild spam is a little overbearing at times.

DeathandDebauchery · February 6

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Wanted to follow up here. The communication drop off is on me, so apologies on that. We are working on getting more info here internally and forgot to follow up in the locked thread. We are still looking into this, along with several other issues happening at the moment. The intention was not to shut down communication. We are looking to get an update out soon.

Thank you for the response @ZOS_Kevin ! May we request moving forward that threads not get locked unless there is an official concluding response? That thread was still civil, as were the subsequent threads after, and we know you are juggling many plates, so its helpful for the threads to "stay visible" so we are not all recreating threads every single day/week as we are waiting for an update. There are many of us that are very passionate about this issue and its disruption to our gameplay, so I think it should be allowed for us to civilly continue to discuss it and keep it top of mind/prescient on the forums.

WolfStar07 · February 9

Bringing this back to the front page for accountability. For all the other times the guild spam issue was raised in the past, did they not do any sort of investigation? One would think it has been documented in the past.

Pevey · February 10

I would think all they would need to do here is look at how many invites to other players this guild has sent per day over the years vs other guilds. This data alone will show that the number is many, many, MANY times higher than literally any other guild. Then, they could look at the decline rate and see that it is also WAY higher. A decline rate over something like 5% should be an anomaly. Theirs is probably > 80-90%. This data alone should provide clear evidence the invite mechanism has not been used as intended. If they wanted to dig even deeper, they could find how many of those declines were repeat declines. Going more down the rabbit hole, they could look at the timestamps of those repeat declines and look at chat logs around that time. But I think that's not even really necessary when the data from the first 2 alone should show a giant flashing red flag of a problem.

Emeratis · February 14

Been lurking since the first thread but requesting an update. The original thread was locked on January 29th and the last word we got was on the 6th. This has been an issue on pc na for years and I think many of us are eager to hear a public update on this.

AlienatedGoat · February 14

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Wanted to follow up here. The communication drop off is on me, so apologies on that. We are working on getting more info here internally and forgot to follow up in the locked thread. We are still looking into this, along with several other issues happening at the moment. The intention was not to shut down communication. We are looking to get an update out soon.

Any update @ZOS_Kevin? I understand the delay could be because there is communication happening behind closed doors, and you also mentioned there were other unrelated issues that needed attention too. But it's been over a week since we last got any communication on this - which is kind of illustrating the issue with communication that OP was writing about.

Tandor · February 14

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Wanted to follow up here. The communication drop off is on me, so apologies on that. We are working on getting more info here internally and forgot to follow up in the locked thread. We are still looking into this, along with several other issues happening at the moment. The intention was not to shut down communication. We are looking to get an update out soon.

Thanks, but I can well imagine that it's easy enough to forget you're supposed to be posting on a thread if someone else has come along and locked it as well as then locking all the other reminder threads while attempting to justify doing so by linking them to the original thread that has already been locked!

Meanwhile another week has gone by since "we are looking to get an update out soon".

Not a good look...

DenverRalphy · February 15

Despite the delay.. Can any PC players weigh in on the status in game? I no longer play on PC anymore, so curious as to whether the automated guild invites are still happening. That would at least indicate whether there's at least some movement on the issue.

Soarora · February 15

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Despite the delay.. Can any PC players weigh in on the status in game? I no longer play on PC anymore, so curious as to whether the automated guild invites are still happening. That would at least indicate whether there's at least some movement on the issue.

I have 5 guilds but people have commented on not seeing the invites in zone chat. They are still doing zone chat advertisements but so does most guilds so I guess can't fault them for that one.

Emeratis · February 15

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Despite the delay.. Can any PC players weigh in on the status in game? I no longer play on PC anymore, so curious as to whether the automated guild invites are still happening. That would at least indicate whether there's at least some movement on the issue.

I have five guilds/guild invite blocker so I can't comment on that but I have been out in the world a lot lately in game and noticed them pretty aggressively recruiting in zone chat again since the original thread. They were posting 3-5x more than the other guilds who advertise in zone. I had a half hour where my chat was entirely filled with their adverts one night and I got tired of it so I started blocking their zone recruiters. My friends who don't have them blocked and play with me have complained on more than one occasion about their adverts being everywhere.

DeathandDebauchery · February 16

Hi @ZOS_Kevin ,

Any update on this? Its been several weeks since the original thread now and 10 days since your last response. Let me know if making a new thread specifically on the Wayshrine Spam would be more appropriate.

DenverRalphy · February 16

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

Hi @ZOS_Kevin ,

Any update on this? Its been several weeks since the original thread now and 10 days since your last response. Let me know if making a new thread specifically on the Wayshrine Spam would be more appropriate.

Are you still getting hit with automated guild invites?

DeathandDebauchery · February 16

DenverRalphy wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

Hi @ZOS_Kevin ,

Any update on this? Its been several weeks since the original thread now and 10 days since your last response. Let me know if making a new thread specifically on the Wayshrine Spam would be more appropriate.

Are you still getting hit with automated guild invites?

My guild was still reporting them as of this weekend, that said, even if the wayshrine invites did temporarily stop for some reason or get reduced, we would still need an official stance from ZoS on this practice and to find out why reporting isn't resulting in the behavior stopping, which is what we have been waiting for.

It's an abuse of the guild invite mechanism (as has been pointed out by several add-on authors in the original thread). This issue has been persisting for literal /years/ at this point, so I don't think it's inappropriate for us to continue to push for an official stance.

DenverRalphy · February 16

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

Hi @ZOS_Kevin ,

Any update on this? Its been several weeks since the original thread now and 10 days since your last response. Let me know if making a new thread specifically on the Wayshrine Spam would be more appropriate.

Are you still getting hit with automated guild invites?

My guild was still reporting them as of this weekend, that said, even if the wayshrine invites did temporarily stop for some reason or get reduced, we would still need an official stance from ZoS on this practice and to find out why reporting isn't resulting in the behavior stopping, which is what we have been waiting for.

It's an abuse of the guild invite mechanism (as has been pointed out by several add-on authors in the original thread). This issue has been persisting for literal /years/ at this point, so I don't think it's inappropriate for us to continue to push for an official stance.

I didn't in any way say it was inappropriate. I only wished to know if the invites were still persisting. If they are, then I would think a new thread would be warranted. If not, then a new "wayshrine spam" thread might be premature.

I stopped playing on PC a some time back. But I'm still curious of the subject.

16BitForestCat · February 17

When the most recent thread about wayshrine spam attracted ZOS attention, the invite-spammers stopped showing up at their usual locations. This is what happens every single time, where they lie low for a while and come out again when they feel the heat's off, so that doesn't really mean much, unfortunately.

I don't have zone chat turned on, so I can't comment as to zone chat spam from this guild group.

DeathandDebauchery · February 17

16BitForestCat wrote: »

When the most recent thread about wayshrine spam attracted ZOS attention, the invite-spammers stopped showing up at their usual locations. This is what happens every single time, where they lie low for a while and come out again when they feel the heat's off, so that doesn't really mean much, unfortunately.

I don't have zone chat turned on, so I can't comment as to zone chat spam from this guild group.

Absolutely, I'm certain the guild leader told them to chill for a bit, and that is why we need an official stance / change in the invite API to make sure it doesnt keep coming back over and over again.

AlienatedGoat · 4:29AM

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

16BitForestCat wrote: »

When the most recent thread about wayshrine spam attracted ZOS attention, the invite-spammers stopped showing up at their usual locations. This is what happens every single time, where they lie low for a while and come out again when they feel the heat's off, so that doesn't really mean much, unfortunately.

I don't have zone chat turned on, so I can't comment as to zone chat spam from this guild group.

Absolutely, I'm certain the guild leader told them to chill for a bit, and that is why we need an official stance / change in the invite API to make sure it doesnt keep coming back over and over again.

I agree, the GM pretty much said as much in their post here. This is why we need some communication from ZOS on this and what is being done to prevent this being an issue in the future.