Lack of Clarity on Communication Promises on General Forums

DeathandDebauchery · February 4

This thread is specifically about how the ZOS team chooses to communicate deadlines and information. There was a thread earlier this week about a specific hot topic issue, linked here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/687752/please-do-something-about-wayshrine-guild-invite-spam-on-pc-na/p1

This thread is not about the topic. But rather the fact that we were promised a response within 24 hours, it was then edited to remove that promise, and every thread that has re-brought it up has been locked.

At this point, the community has been promised information, has not been provided that information, the promise was redacted, and then any further discussion on the topic has been intentionally squashed.

See here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688424/wayshrine-spam-on-pc-na-follow-up#latest
and here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688418/any-word-on-the-spam-guild-invites-issue#latest

Given ZoS's new promise of transparency and proactivity in communication, this feels like shutting down a genuine conversation and failing to proactively communicate. I'm curious how the rest of the community feels about ZoS's communication practices on the general forums in particular.

We've seen fantastic examples coming out of the Public Test Server, see here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688277/update-49-pts-week-3-summary#latest and here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688010/poll-pvp-hot-stacking-options-for-update-49/p1

Is there a difference in communication ethos between the team responsible for the public test server responses and the team responsible for general discussion responses?

heimdall14_9 · February 4

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

This thread is specifically about how the ZOS team chooses to communicate deadlines and information. There was a thread earlier this week about a specific hot topic issue, linked here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/687752/please-do-something-about-wayshrine-guild-invite-spam-on-pc-na/p1

This thread is not about the topic. But rather the fact that we were promised a response within 24 hours, it was then edited to remove that promise, and every thread that has re-brought it up has been locked.

At this point, the community has been promised information, has not been provided that information, the promise was redacted, and then any further discussion on the topic has been intentionally squashed.

See here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688424/wayshrine-spam-on-pc-na-follow-up#latest
and here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688418/any-word-on-the-spam-guild-invites-issue#latest

Given ZoS's new promise of transparency and proactivity in communication, this feels like shutting down a genuine conversation and failing to proactively communicate. I'm curious how the rest of the community feels about ZoS's communication practices on the general forums in particular.

We've seen fantastic examples coming out of the Public Test Server, see here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688277/update-49-pts-week-3-summary#latest and here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688010/poll-pvp-hot-stacking-options-for-update-49/p1

Is there a difference in communication ethos between the team responsible for the public test server responses and the team responsible for general discussion responses?

ive been trying to get someone to say something meaningful about the UI respec restriction while allowing WW add-on but they wont say an word about it so i get where you are coming from its like they will talk if its the right person speaking but not everyone is the same

Destai · February 4

I was pretty irritated seeing how those were handled. I don't see how that approach really helps anyone; it just adds to the frustration.

Professionally speaking, they are very fortunate they have a work environment where their clients can't directly hold them accountable. I simply can't imagine telling my customers I'll do something, and not do it, especially without explanation. Probably not a lot of other places where it would work this way. I get they have a lot on their plate, but it takes mere minutes to provide an update on something. It's not hard. It's just like sending an email. At the very least, let us have our conversations uninterrupted.

Honestly, I think the forum management still has so much room to improve. Their overall communication as a company has grown, yes, absolutely. But there's still these little situations like this where things like duplicate/necro threads are treated with more attention than addressing the actual topics driving those threads. I don't understand their priorities, I really don't.

I know many of us have asked for lighter, more discretionary treatment of threads, and I simply don't see that being honored. Myself and many others have given a lot of feedback on improving the forum experience, and it just doesn't feel like they're open to most of it. Moments like this remind me of that fact.

Soarora · February 4

I thought the original 24-hour timeline was strange as surely this would require more time to bake a statement for, especially since it’s not particularly time-sensitive. I’d rather it take a few weeks than for the gun to be jumped. So, to be honest, I’m not mad that it was removed. I assumed there was a miscommunication or plans failed to happen. That said, it would’ve been better for there to be accountability over the edit.

Closing both of the discussions started today instead of only one was an interesting choice though… especially without a comment, even if it’s just urging patience. Especially considering the history of ZOS starting things and not finishing them from our perspective (sometimes I think about ZOS being aware the dungeon queue is bugged and then I saw nothing about it since…).

LennaTheRussian · February 4

It does not even make since why the original thread was closed in the first place. As soon as the guild leader shows up to post, a few hours later it gets locked. Killing all discussion on the topic.

SilverBride · February 4

My hopes were up when it was posted in the locked thread about this problem to watch for a statement from @ZOS_Kevin. It would be really nice to resolve this long standing issue. I hope we hear something soon.

Soarora · February 4

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

It does not even make since why the original thread was closed in the first place. As soon as the guild leader shows up to post, a few hours later it gets locked. Killing all discussion on the topic.

ZOS probably got what they needed out of us and lots of discussions end up devolving into fighting. Especially since it’s a very pointed post to begin with. I think this warrants investigation instead of ongoing public discussion, especially since some big points had already been brought up.

hiyde · February 4

Soarora wrote: »

ZOS probably got what they needed out of us and lots of discussions end up devolving into fighting. Especially since it’s a very pointed post to begin with. I think this warrants investigation instead of ongoing public discussion, especially since some big points had already been brought up.

Then they can moderate it like they do every other post that is left open.

This situation is not resolved. Telling us to keep an eye out for an update on a locked thread is a weird choice.

If we aren't camped on the forums 24/7, that post is going to drop like a rock into obscurity even once an answer is appended.

This wayshrine spam issue has been going on for *years*. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a clear answer once and for all.

Is this type of behavior allowed or not? How is it any different from teabagging/emote spam etc where it's actionable if you ask them to stop and they don't?

Is ZOS really OK with the potential of a public version of this addon that would allow numerous guilds to hide in the bushes at wayshrines and auto-spam invites to everything that moves? I really, really hope not but please let us know one way or the other, that's all we're asking.

Moving timelines / locking a thread before an answer is given / asking us to watch a locked thread is a really odd way to manage this and I don't get it.

DeathandDebauchery · February 4

Soarora wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

It does not even make since why the original thread was closed in the first place. As soon as the guild leader shows up to post, a few hours later it gets locked. Killing all discussion on the topic.

ZOS probably got what they needed out of us and lots of discussions end up devolving into fighting. Especially since it’s a very pointed post to begin with. I think this warrants investigation instead of ongoing public discussion, especially since some big points had already been brought up.

Many of these threads /dont/ dissolve in to fighting though, they do have back and forth and that back and forth is often relatively civil. In general, it feels like a lot of threads are getting locked really prematurely because they are serious pain points for the game, not because the discussion is actually turning hostile.

I'm more interested in the broader conversation about communication and the struggles ZoS seems to face in following basic pro-active communication strategies.

I agree that in general the mistake here is giving a timeline in general to address an issue when you don't have a clear solution ready. It demonstrates a clear disconnect between your line level staff (e.g. Mods) and your more senior-level staff (e.g. CMs).

All they would have had to do was say "Were cooking on this, and need some time. We will make a post in the next week or two." and they would have bought 2 more weeks before that post comes. But they said 24 hours and then tried to hide it, and then tried to shutdown additional conversation about it in the middle of the night tonight (10:30pm EST, 7:30PM PST).

It feels like insulting our intelligence that we can't see what is happening and that doesn't feel good.

LittleLionLeone · February 4

They're most likely discussing this with the guild leader behind closed doors. I imagine that they'll make a public post saying something along the lines of "We have spoken to the leader of the guilds and have worked together to resolve the issue."

The guilds will probably stop spamming and using the addon from now on, and no one will be punished. (I disagree with it but it seems like that's what will happen. Imo the guild leader should be punished for letting this go on for so long, he even admitted to doing it on here twice and had no remorse.)

Either way as long as it stops, it's whatever. We just need some clear communication and not have threads locked for being duplicates with no reassurance that this won't be buried and forgotten.

AlienatedGoat · February 4

We definitely need some clear communication from ZOS on this issue and what is being done about it. The silence right now is deafening.

AlienatedGoat · February 4

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

Is there a difference in communication ethos between the team responsible for the public test server responses and the team responsible for general discussion responses?

I think it's likely. The dev team is honestly trying to be more communicative and responsive to PTS feedback - this is the best PTS cycle I've seen in years. Whereas the moderation team are more or less bound by the strict rules of the forum, so there isn't much room for raising issues, especially those of a sensitive nature, even though they might be important or serious.

Soarora · February 4

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

LennaTheRussian wrote: »

It does not even make since why the original thread was closed in the first place. As soon as the guild leader shows up to post, a few hours later it gets locked. Killing all discussion on the topic.

ZOS probably got what they needed out of us and lots of discussions end up devolving into fighting. Especially since it’s a very pointed post to begin with. I think this warrants investigation instead of ongoing public discussion, especially since some big points had already been brought up.

Many of these threads /dont/ dissolve in to fighting though, they do have back and forth and that back and forth is often relatively civil. In general, it feels like a lot of threads are getting locked really prematurely because they are serious pain points for the game, not because the discussion is actually turning hostile.

I'm more interested in the broader conversation about communication and the struggles ZoS seems to face in following basic pro-active communication strategies.

I agree that in general the mistake here is giving a timeline in general to address an issue when you don't have a clear solution ready. It demonstrates a clear disconnect between your line level staff (e.g. Mods) and your more senior-level staff (e.g. CMs).

All they would have had to do was say "Were cooking on this, and need some time. We will make a post in the next week or two." and they would have bought 2 more weeks before that post comes. But they said 24 hours and then tried to hide it, and then tried to shutdown additional conversation about it in the middle of the night tonight (10:30pm EST, 7:30PM PST).

It feels like insulting our intelligence that we can't see what is happening and that doesn't feel good.

Perhaps I’m just tuckered out from the devolving into fighting I have witnessed lately and that’s influenced my perspective. I do agree the communication should’ve been handled better (and still can be!).

I do like the shift* lately of seeing some moderators go off script and say things themselves so I hope this mistake doesn’t influence that.

*By shift, I mean this and one other time this PTS cycle. I found both responses strange but I’m glad to see moderators talking more like people.

scrappy1342 · February 4

on the one hand, i can see how with the guild leader getting in on the conversation would have them leery of those threads turning hostile. but... they shouldn't have given a deadline, gone back on that deadline, tried to hide it and completely dropped communication on it along with shutting down every thread that came up discussing it. i imagine this one will get shut down, too.

i'm not even sure why we have to wait for them to deal with the guild leader. what they do with them is really no consequence to us. what they need to do is change it so that addon they are using is not allowed to do what it does. i have no idea how those things work though. maybe they can't figure it out and that's what's taking so long.

hiyde wrote: »

Is ZOS really OK with the potential of a public version of this addon that would allow numerous guilds to hide in the bushes at wayshrines and auto-spam invites to everything that moves? I really, really hope not but please let us know one way or the other, that's all we're asking.

maybe this is what it would take for them to solve it. multiple guilds doing this (i mean... other than the 5+ that are associated with that one group)

KCMail · February 4

I don't believe the original topic should have been locked in general, but especially not until there was an official announcement on the topic.

For the "Duplicate" threads, I believe that is the recommended route from the mods, at least based on the copy paste responses we see when a topic is commented on

"Greetings,

We have closed this topic as it was originally created in [Month/Year]. In many cases, it's better to create a new thread on a topic that you want to discuss as opposed to bumping one that is rather old.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team"

I believe if we want to discuss that topic it is the mods own recommendation to start a new thread instead of using the old thread, considering in this case that thread is impossible to use as it was closed prematurely.

This level of communication is exactly on par with what we expect from ZOS, or at least the old team. I thought it would improve overall with the new leadership team, especially since if I remember correctly @ZOS_JoBurba our new studio head had originally started in Community management and this situation feels like the exact one someone from that position would like to avoid, but instead it feels like a very calculated approach to show "improved" communication only in areas that are highly visible, the PTS threads being the main candidate.

It's sad, maybe it'll take time, the improved communication has been a welcome change but this feels like a huge step back, shutting down discussion on a key pain point for players and writing it off instead of having the open discussion and communicating clearly.

Edit: Took out the actual date in the copy paste message from ZOS

WolfStar07 · February 4

Inconsistent moderation is a problem because a lot of it is subjective. They want us to create new threads instead of resurrecting "old" ones, but they shut down new ones as duplicates. And then despite the original thread from last week being considered a duplicate by very broad standards, they let it go on long enough for a CM to say "Hey, we're gonna get back to you at x time," which has no follow through, and then shut that down for no actual reason. And any attempts on our end to follow up is now a duplicate because we can't post to that thread. And we're supposed to trust this issue that's been brought up for years on the forums won't conveniently be forgotten about because it was "addressed" in a locked thread?

SummersetCitizen · February 4

100%.

The repeated closing and reopening of threads feels manipulative.

If anything, this pattern has intensified over the past few months. Much of what is being framed as “improved communication” comes across as message control or damage control rather than meaningful engagement.

valenwood_vegan · February 4

KCMail wrote: »

instead it feels like a very calculated approach to show "improved" communication only in areas that are highly visible, the PTS threads being the main candidate.

I've said my piece elsewhere, but I did want to just highlight this as I feel exactly the same way.

The improved communication around certain aspects of this PTS cycle *is* welcome and appreciated. But at the same time it feels performative when it appears to be limited to a couple of pre-selected topics, related to the most heavily-promoted features of the update, where feedback is desired and engagement has been allowed.

Topics that are more uncomfortable, or that perhaps were not anticipated to be "hot" topics in the community, are still being met with silence rather than meaningful engagement.

Destai · February 4

KCMail wrote: »

We have closed this topic as it was originally created in [Month/Year]. In many cases, it's better to create a new thread on a topic that you want to discuss as opposed to bumping one that is rather old.

The copy-paste feel of the messages makes it feel worse. Especially the "many cases" verbiage - the vast majority of necro threads are because someone's saying there's still an issue. No one's confused. There's no out of date information. It's someone literally saying nothing's changed. And even with duplicate threads - two threads on one topic isn't a big deal. Maybe some people don't want to deal with one of the posters, or there's subtle differences between the conversations. Not a big deal to leave them open.

KCMail wrote: »

This level of communication is exactly on par with what we expect from ZOS, or at least the old team. I thought it would improve overall with the new leadership team, especially since if I remember correctly @ZOS_JoBurba our new studio head had originally started in Community management and this situation feels like the exact one someone from that position would like to avoid, but instead it feels like a very calculated approach to show "improved" communication only in areas that are highly visible, the PTS threads being the main candidate.

The Community Management has improved, it really has. The forum management, not so much. There was a big uproar about moderation in December 2024 and we were told they were "finding a new balance" or something similar. I don't see any changes. As expected, no status updates were provided on that effort. I still have an outstanding message/request that never garnered a response. The sympathy for their workload runs out when things like this happen. If threads can be closed quickly, getting responses should be the same.

DenverRalphy · February 4

Not gonna lie.. Last night when I read the "Closing this thread" reply on your post, if I had been drinking a beverage it would have sprayed all over my monitor! I laughed so hard.

It was literally closed due to it being a duplicate topic (even though it wasn't), and in the same breath traffic was directed back to the thread that had already been closed.

[edit] To be clear, I wasn't laughing at you.

DeathandDebauchery · February 4

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

KCMail wrote: »

instead it feels like a very calculated approach to show "improved" communication only in areas that are highly visible, the PTS threads being the main candidate.

I've said my piece elsewhere, but I did want to just highlight this as I feel exactly the same way.

The improved communication around certain aspects of this PTS cycle *is* welcome and appreciated. But at the same time it feels performative when it appears to be limited to a couple of pre-selected topics, related to the most heavily-promoted features of the update, where feedback is desired and engagement has been allowed.

Topics that are more uncomfortable, or that perhaps were not anticipated to be "hot" topics in the community, are still being met with silence rather than meaningful engagement.

Yep, this is exactly the reason for this post. While I still care about the issue in that thread, as a guild leader of a 500 person guild who cares deeply about the game being successful and this new era trending in the right direction, I am on high alert for the "old ZoS" communication style and I agree that we seem to be landing somewhere in the "yeah, we are getting more communication, but only on things ZoS wants to talk about." OR, if we want to assume the best and that this is not an intentional attempt to stile conversations on unpopular topics - then there is a disconnect between the forum moderation team and the CM/Dev team.

The thread should never have been locked. It was not devolving in to negativity, it was clamoring for answers and it feels like they just didn't want it on the front page anymore. But by locking it and saying "keep an eye on this locked thread for 24 hours - wait, nvm, actually just keep an eye on this locked thread for an indeterminate amount of time." then going radio silent for 4 business days and locking the following threads - you are effectively burning the trust of your community.

I deeply want to see this new era of ZoS be successful. I have invested a lot of time in to growing a 500 player community on this game. I want to see the level of communication we are getting on the PTS on the General Forums.

We need to know that ZoS is going to apply their new communication Ethos beyond new aspects of the game they want to push (Battlepass, Class Refresh, etc) and also apply it to obvious pain points that have simple solutions.

valenwood_vegan · February 4

Just as another example of this "old communication style" continuing, an issue that generated a lot of discussion across several threads on PTS this cycle was the new restriction being placed on queuing for Cyrodill to quickly port out of Imperial City.

We were even led to believe in this thread that we might get some answers or further information from the team, but this was followed by what is now about three weeks of total silence.

Mind you I'm not trying to blame anyone specifically, as I'm sure staff members are told what they can and can't discuss with the community, I see this as more of a corporate issue. But I do hope the new leadership can continue to push away from this old style of essentially ignoring certain issues and hoping they just go away or get forgotten.

SilverBride · February 4

That was the first thread addressing the issue of spam guild invites where I saw the GM of these guilds come in to the conversation. I thought it was great that they were willing to discuss it with the players and think that maybe we could have worked out a solution as a community and not even need any official intervention if we had been allowed to continue the conversation.

Pevey · February 4

SilverBride wrote: »

That was the first thread addressing the issue of spam guild invites where I saw the GM of these guilds come in to the conversation. I thought it was great that they were willing to discuss it with the players and think that maybe we could have worked out a solution as a community and not even need any official intervention if we had been allowed to continue the conversation.

You missed the post linking to that person's previous comment from about 4 years ago. It was all the same talking points and even some of the same phrasing. Seeing community discussions that a lot of players obviously feel are important (given that the topic keeps coming up over and over again, even after reports are ignored and closed for "no violation found") is really discouraging. It doesn't point to improved communication at all. We don't need to know anything about the moderation taken against the guild in this specific instance if that is considered private. That is understandable. But is the behavior acceptable? Imagine multiple guild doing this. It would be chaos.

SilverBride · February 4

Pevey wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

That was the first thread addressing the issue of spam guild invites where I saw the GM of these guilds come in to the conversation. I thought it was great that they were willing to discuss it with the players and think that maybe we could have worked out a solution as a community and not even need any official intervention if we had been allowed to continue the conversation.

You missed the post linking to that person's previous comment from about 4 years ago.

I did miss that. But I still think we should have had more of a chance to discuss it with them. And I definitely think we should get an update on what is going on with this.

DeathandDebauchery · February 5

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Just as another example of this "old communication style" continuing, an issue that generated a lot of discussion across several threads on PTS this cycle was the new restriction being placed on queuing for Cyrodill to quickly port out of Imperial City.

We were even led to believe in this thread that we might get some answers or further information from the team, but this was followed by what is now about three weeks of total silence.

Mind you I'm not trying to blame anyone specifically, as I'm sure staff members are told what they can and can't discuss with the community, I see this as more of a corporate issue. But I do hope the new leadership can continue to push away from this old style of essentially ignoring certain issues and hoping they just go away or get forgotten.

Yeah, it almost makes me wonder if we as a community need to create our own thread logging all the "pending" answers we have been waiting for for years and just keep bringing that full list up every month. I feel like we could probably crowd make that pretty quick if the guild leaders get on board.

Desiato · February 5

It's not a critical issue so it's not a big deal to me. I appreciate that Kevin is looking into it. He'll get back to us when there's an update. There's no need for further explanation until then.

DeathandDebauchery · February 5

Desiato wrote: »

It's not a critical issue so it's not a big deal to me. I appreciate that Kevin is looking into it. He'll get back to us when there's an update. There's no need for further explanation until then.

This thread isn't about the issue itself. This thread is about the fact that a response was promised by ZoS within a certain time period. When that time period was not met. The team attempted to redact the commitment they made rather then explain they needed more time. Trying to cover up a mistake in communication rather then owning it is a trust eroding practice.

The second part of the discussion is around the fact that any attempts to continue the /civil/ discourse was locked, and now we have tons of threads on the forums about it (and still more as of this post) because the discussion has been attempted to be silenced.

These two facts together paint an incredibly unflattering picture of the official communication apparatus. I am the #1 fan of the new communication strategy, and I'm trying to figure out why this issue has been handled so poorly while other issues seem to be handled so well.

valenwood_vegan · February 5

Desiato wrote: »

It's not a critical issue so it's not a big deal to me. I appreciate that Kevin is looking into it. He'll get back to us when there's an update. There's no need for further explanation until then.

With respect, pretty much any issue is not critical to someone. But beyond that, zos unfortunately has a long and extensive history of broken communication promises and that's more what's being brought up here, imo.

DenverRalphy · February 5

Desiato wrote: »

It's not a critical issue so it's not a big deal to me. I appreciate that Kevin is looking into it. He'll get back to us when there's an update. There's no need for further explanation until then.

To be fair, the wait for an official update on this topic has been nearly a decade now. The topic comes up every quarter or so, and the response is always "send us your data, and we'll look into it". Critical or no.. that's a bit long.

spartaxoxo · February 5

Desiato wrote: »

It's not a critical issue so it's not a big deal to me. I appreciate that Kevin is looking into it. He'll get back to us when there's an update. There's no need for further explanation until then.

Companion taunt broke a year ago so that the only one that works reliably in Infinite Archive is Azandar's taunt. Some of the bosses, including world bosses, ignore companion taunt entirely even though they can be taunted by players.

The devs said they had identified a bug and a fix was under development and they'd give us an update. One year later and no update and I don't think the issue was ever fixed either.

ETA
In general for this game, no news is bad news. For another example, look at the Tel-Var thread that I created. It had over 6k views. Many of the playerbase created threads only have a few hundred, by comparison. And there were other threads created here and on Reddit. Multiple pages of discussion too. The point of explaining on all that is simply to show it somewhat popular topic but not one of the main topics that they had marked ahead of time as needed to discuss. They did do a fantastic job on the main things happening that they had marked ahead of time. This was just not one of those things.

At first there was a mistake thinking that the topic had already been answered with some information given about transmute crystals. Then we were told we'd get answers about that specific issue. And then no changes on the pts and no communication or answers were given. The topic was dropped and no changes made.

They obviously can tell the community no. And they obviously don't need to respond to every thread even popular ones. But they had said they would respond to that thread and then did not. And it was something the community could have used clarification on because there was confusion as to why the change was implemented in the way that it was. Given the confusion, big impact to play, and the statement we'd get answers, it is disappointing that we didn't get them and erodes confidence that communication will improve outside of the main issues that they already wanted to focus on.