Combat has gotten boring, build variety is stagnant. Maybe if they do a good job of working on the class rebalance. It doesn't take that long to fill your sticker book, what else is there to do after that? I only run a single time a week to help guild mates.

There are many problems right now in the endgame scene.

Power creep destroyed mid-tier raiding. Normal became easy mode. Veteran became normal mode. And HM only really became HM again when the later expansions came out. So running veteran for fun became a boring burn fest. Because it got so easy, more people started doing vet trials with pugs instead of in guilds.

Because mid-tier raiding got destroyed, there’s barely any new influx into harder content. So it’s become more of a “who knows who” scene, with the same people popping up everywhere. The problem is that when a group disbands or takes a break, people often leave the game or take a long break themselves.

The meta is pretty stale. It’s been beam, beam, beam for years now, and subclassing only buffed it.

Rewards are lacking. Before the sticker book, people would join vet trials just to get extra weapon sets for their alts. Now, if you’ve filled your sticker book, there’s no real reason to join veteran trials anymore.

This is more of a personal opinion, but the player base has changed a lot. It’s much more casual and solo-focused than it used to be, compared to players who wanted to do group content. For me, hosting a raid now feels more like providing a service than doing something for fun. People don’t show up for trials, or cancel an hour before. People argue about the gear sets they’re supposed to wear.

That’s why I only raid-lead my prog group that’s doing harder content. Because I actually find that fun.

I never really did trials for the rewards, as the vet rewards are just not things I'd actually use. I did gear farming a bit but mostly it was for the social side of doing raids with my guild. Once they stopped after subclassing, I didn't get back into it.

What would make me do trials again? I need to farm a few sets a bit more, but mostly I'm waiting for my warden to get updated and hopefully be more useful again as she's my main and did a lot of trials as healer. I'll probably try some PUG trials with my DK when she's updated though. But I usually stay away from vet trials unless the group is more casual because I need practice with the mechs before I'd handle any score pushing etc.

Don't worry, endgame pvp has survived without rewards for almost a decade now. I'm sure you'll be fine.

To be honest though, I don't know why they don't clean up the loot pool and start offering more transmutes or give out some gold mats or something. I could only hope with the new difficulty settings they come up with some better loot.

I consider myself a mid level raider. Doing hard modes semi regularly and progging trifectas at the beginning of the list. Dawnbringer etc. I never understood the "I'm sticker booked so why would I go back" thing. If that's you, of course it's ok but I do it for the love of the game. The time spent with friends having a good time. I also spend one of my trial nights in vet teaching runs for my social guild. People might be surprised how many so called casual story questers actually live vet trials and do awesome. Just make the environment risk free for them. No requirements, no gear check, just fun and no apologies allowed. It's a great way to bring new blood into the endgame.

Would I like to see more rewards in trials? Sure would. Cool furnishings, cool costumes, dyes are cool. Beating hard mode sunspire allows you to buy awesome dragon statues. More of that. I don't need incentive, but it's cool to have for sure.

The mid-tier trial community has been suffering for a while, but there were a few drastic downturns with U35’s meganerfs (at least at the mid level, since the high level bounced back quickly) and U46’s “why play anything but Assassination-powered Arc beam?” And for both of those, I blame ZOS and the desire to push out some concept without considering the ramifications, and an absolute refusal to listen to players who warned about them on PTS.

We almost saw it again with the in-trial respecs, but at least they listened this time that allowing those would lead to even more toxicity and exclusionary behavior. One of my friends straight up said “it certainly feels like that feature would have been cooked up by either:
1) Someone who is super casual player and doesn't actually play PvE trials or raids in any serious capacity
2) Someone who is super hardcore and score-pushes a lot”
And that’s a feeling that has definitely come down from the combat team over the past few years: they do something to ‘help’ make endgame more casual, which has the effect of making sweaty scorepushers exploit it to get even faster clears with fewer mechanics, thereby making requirements for doing trials even stricter since you can exploit those tactics, thereby keeping even more people out of trials who don’t enjoy those tactics.

I’ve seen people post “slow tactics Bahsei HM” runs that required: 1) dictated all three skill lines for all four supports, including demanding specific skills, 2) demanded the main tank run dual wield specifically for the status knife scribed skill, 3) specifically threw the main tank in spaulder because screw sustain, 4) had only one portal team, so implying a single portal, 5) demanded one DPS kill meteors solo so the rest of the group could burn. In what universe is that “slow?” Seriously.
I’ve seen “casual farm runs” posted that make insane demands of everyone because god forbid we spend more than 3 minutes in Cloudrest or something.

And then the people who are like “I’m good at this game, but I prefer playing pureclass” are not welcome anymore since they are objectively less powerful. Never mind how well they actually play, you can’t join these top groups. So where can you go otherwise? With the players who play total meme builds and consider normal Fungal Grotto as endgame. I’ve watched my social guild wither and die over the past year - our guild existed specifically because we wanted to get a friend a vMoL clear, and now there are so few people remaining (and the skill level has backslid incredibly) that the guild can’t even fill a roster for a normal trial and something like normal Ossein takes a full 2h runtime and can’t guarantee a clear.

The entire midtier community is gone. All you have left are the hypersweats who gatekeep everything and the ultracasuals who don’t realize or care that solo overland builds are not good for group content. If you’re not in either of those groups, your choice is to either be frustrated and excluded or to be frustrated trying to play with people who treat you like an NPC.

As for the solution? Well, there isn’t one. At least not an easy one. But it will require the team keeping endgame in mind when designing features. It will require balancing the game to make it so there isn’t just “one playstyle to rule them all.” And it will require trying to balance the freedom casuals want with the structure that endgame requires.

We used to have a thriving midtier community. There used to be Project Vitality to get people into endgame, or the Streamer Trials with the devs, or more guilds with people willing to learn. But as ESO starts to pivot more into the “you don’t need to play with others” mindset, that means the things that do need to be done with others wither. And that leaves us where we are now, where we have a very “play alone together” thought process that even complains how upcoming content that only needs you to zergsurf is bad (while also having a different population complaining that they won’t get private instances of the entire game).

It’s easy to consider how a change you want will affect your life. But not many people are considering how those things could affect others.

Angnos wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

And then the people who are like “I’m good at this game, but I prefer playing pureclass” are not welcome anymore since they are objectively less powerful. Never mind how well they actually play, you can’t join these top groups. So where can you go otherwise? With the players who play total meme builds and consider normal Fungal Grotto as endgame. I’ve watched my social guild wither and die over the past year - our guild existed specifically because we wanted to get a friend a vMoL clear, and now there are so few people remaining (and the skill level has backslid incredibly) that the guild can’t even fill a roster for a normal trial and something like normal Ossein takes a full 2h runtime and can’t guarantee a clear.

The entire midtier community is gone. All you have left are the hypersweats who gatekeep everything and the ultracasuals who don’t realize or care that solo overland builds are not good for group content. If you’re not in either of those groups, your choice is to either be frustrated and excluded or to be frustrated trying to play with people who treat you like an NPC.

Most of your message I do agree with, but I will keep fighting on this hill. There is no real gatekeeping in this game. If you want to do trials as pure class, you can do it. You just have to start it yourself or find the right guild with a raid leader who allows it. Raid leaders are not ZOS employees who can block the trial entrances in game.

As for your guild, it’s adapt or die. When I started/took over my guild, we did normal and veteran trials, PvP, and fishing. Slowly, interest waned, and I could no longer fill my trials and events. But people were interested in harder content. So I slowly moved toward harder content with my prog groups. Now I have several trifectas and DLC hard modes under my belt as a raid leader. Something I never thought I would achieve or do a few years ago.

The game and the player base have changed too much to keep doing the same things that were successful years ago. So again as a guild adapt or die.

Don’t get me wrong - I fight to play pureclass as hard as I can.

My trial tri raid lead is mostly permissive, but I do subclass there because it’s mathematically better. But he knows I hate it, and in our dungeon tris, I pureclassed my way through everything. Even the one subclass I do for my trial prog is one that I don’t absolutely hate; I was asked to do something else once and I hated that build so much that I just ragequit that group.

It really hurts that we’re going a full year without dungeons (no, the Night Market is not the same) since those are a lot more fun than trials which actively reward minmaxing.

But the fact remains that subclassing is objectively stronger than pureclassing, and that doesn’t seem likely to be fixed until all seven Classes get their refresh at the end of 2027.

The little incentives trials currently have do need to be updated. At one time, banging your head against the same trial learning to beat it would at least make it somewhat worthwhile. If players don't have anything to show for it even after failing for the umpteenth time, they're just going to walk away. Plunder Runs aren't worth it anymore as you can earn more faster elsewhere in the game.

Putting aside the fact that PvE endgame has been a ''beam meta'' for the last 3 years, ZOS reward structure for PvE content is still mostly stuff that you ''do once''. Achievements, Stickerbook, Leads, etc are things that once they are ''completed'', cease to qualify as rewards.

They need to add more incentives to keep doing this content (especially when it's group content), otherwise people just aren't going to bother once they get all the ''do once'' stuff. They could add more tradeable ''rare collectibles'' like the vAS Poly, take another look at Undaunted Plunder, make it so that the repeatable quests give you a vastly increased reward once per week, etc.

twisttop138 wrote: »

I consider myself a mid level raider. Doing hard modes semi regularly and progging trifectas at the beginning of the list. Dawnbringer etc. I never understood the "I'm sticker booked so why would I go back" thing. If that's you, of course it's ok but I do it for the love of the game. The time spent with friends having a good time. I also spend one of my trial nights in vet teaching runs for my social guild. People might be surprised how many so called casual story questers actually live vet trials and do awesome. Just make the environment risk free for them. No requirements, no gear check, just fun and no apologies allowed. It's a great way to bring new blood into the endgame.

Would I like to see more rewards in trials? Sure would. Cool furnishings, cool costumes, dyes are cool. Beating hard mode sunspire allows you to buy awesome dragon statues. More of that. I don't need incentive, but it's cool to have for sure.

The problem is that once someone has the achievement, the question becomes "what incentive is there for that person to go back and prog Dawnbringer again?" This is why I will always say AwA was the worst update in the history of the game for raiders and dungeon runners. At least before, people were often running their hard modes or trifectas again on multiple classes and roles in order to have the title on multiple characters, and it was also useful to gauge someone's experience level at the content on a specific role (I couldn't put Dawnbringer on my baby tank that's never tanked anything outside of base game veterans), but now 90% of people prog it once and then never go back again. It seriously reduced the replayability aspect of the content.

I remember the days when skins and personalities were part of the challenger achievements, like the ones from Dragon Bones or Wolfhunter dungeons, but then people complained that getting the cosmetics was too hard, so they started putting the rewards into just the Veteran clears. Then it even got to the point of "here's a face marking that's so small and unrecognizable after you spent a month progging DSRhm."

The last couple trials, Lucent Citadel didn't even have face markings. You get a dye and a bust for clearing the trial on Normal, and the trifecta mount. It's the same for Ossein Cage, a dye and a bust for clearing the trial on Normal, and then there's the mount for the trifecta. You don't even get body or face markings anymore for clearing the Veteran and Hard Mode, so technically there's even less rewards at endgame now.

ElderSmitter wrote: »

It seems like maybe ZOS needs to get rid of Curated for trials. That may have been one of the top things i am reading.. They made it too easy to get powerful sets way to quickly alleviating the excitement of finally getting that 1 weapon or body armor you needed.. They sped everything up so fast curation killed the need for constant runs to get that elusive set..

that would honestly be awful lol, i would probably stop running trials if i could not be guaranteed items i havent collected

i normally already run a lot of trials i have all the gear for because i enjoy the experience with a group, so the gear is not the issue, if anything making it uncurated would get less people to run the trials

Of course, the Group Finder is dying fast, and it’s both ZOS’s fault and the players’ fault. What I see in the Group Finder:

• 100k DPS or be kicked
  Note:
  For new\casual players, this is almost impossible. With a ONEBAR build, hitting 100k is easy. But if you’re new\casual, using two bars and still learning weaving, you can’t even get close. New players are essentially blocked from joining.
  
  Only one or two top pro-elite players join the Group Finder at the same time. STOP asking for top players in Finder, because you won’t get them. You know those groups that can complete vDSR in 20 minutes? You find them from time to time, yes—but the truth is: They don’t join you. You join them in Finder. Do you understand the difference?
• No HA builds
  Note:
  Why not? Unless you’re in CR+3, there’s no reason. For example, Hyperion has a ton of HA builds with very simple rotations that perform much better than 2bar casual builds.
• CP1500
  Note:
  Seriously, why? The best tank I know is around CP700! Meanwhile, I’ve seen one healer CP3600 who clearly had no idea how to heal, probably just bought the account. CP means almost nothing in practice.
• Discord required
  Note:
  ESO is already a very toxic game. Do we really need more toxicity on Discord? Posting parses, loot, achievements, logs, or skins adds unnecessary stress. Good luck keeping the peace there.
• Link your sets
  Note:
  Every time I see this, I join and link all my sets using the Inventory Insight addon: Sul-Xan, Order, Deadly, Ansuul, Siroria, Relequen, Coral, Runecarver’s, Nirn… everything. The best reply I got was being kicked for linking a burn set. Seriously.
• No OneBar builds
  Note:
  Why not? When I see this, I switch to my OneBar main build, lower my HP to 23k, join, and then go full build before the fight. Most of the time I leave after, because I don’t want to carry a raid leader who gatekeeps others and parse 50k less then my HA. You have no idea how strong an Arcanist OneBar build can be with PUGs in Group Finder.
• Only Arcanists
  Note:
  Well… this one actually makes some sense. For whatever reason, this class dominates these groups.
  …etc.
  

So, the problem is not Trial Rewards causing Group Finder to die. The problem is players gatekeeping others, and ZOS giving them the tools to do it. I’ve said this a hundred times. Sharing DPS with addons like Hodor Reflex does nothing but let people gatekeep others. Logs, parses, and other tools are perfect for players to exclude others.

And why?! Just… why? Do others really need to see someone else’s CP? Just… why? I’m CP2700++ I really don’t care. But how many times have I been blocked from joining content because I was on an alt account at CP800-- ? Of course, this happens to so many others too.

Group Finder is dying, and the game has turned into [SNIP] because of the players and ZOS. Players kill the MMO aspect with gatekeeping. ZOS kills it further by giving them the tools and by completely destroying the RPG part of ESO with all the bad decisions they’ve made.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

The mid-tier trial community has been suffering for a while, but there were a few drastic downturns with U35’s meganerfs (at least at the mid level, since the high level bounced back quickly) and U46’s “why play anything but Assassination-powered Arc beam?” And for both of those, I blame ZOS and the desire to push out some concept without considering the ramifications, and an absolute refusal to listen to players who warned about them on PTS.

We almost saw it again with the in-trial respecs, but at least they listened this time that allowing those would lead to even more toxicity and exclusionary behavior. One of my friends straight up said “it certainly feels like that feature would have been cooked up by either:
1) Someone who is super casual player and doesn't actually play PvE trials or raids in any serious capacity
2) Someone who is super hardcore and score-pushes a lot”
And that’s a feeling that has definitely come down from the combat team over the past few years: they do something to ‘help’ make endgame more casual, which has the effect of making sweaty scorepushers exploit it to get even faster clears with fewer mechanics, thereby making requirements for doing trials even stricter since you can exploit those tactics, thereby keeping even more people out of trials who don’t enjoy those tactics.

I’ve seen people post “slow tactics Bahsei HM” runs that required: 1) dictated all three skill lines for all four supports, including demanding specific skills, 2) demanded the main tank run dual wield specifically for the status knife scribed skill, 3) specifically threw the main tank in spaulder because screw sustain, 4) had only one portal team, so implying a single portal, 5) demanded one DPS kill meteors solo so the rest of the group could burn. In what universe is that “slow?” Seriously.
I’ve seen “casual farm runs” posted that make insane demands of everyone because god forbid we spend more than 3 minutes in Cloudrest or something.

And then the people who are like “I’m good at this game, but I prefer playing pureclass” are not welcome anymore since they are objectively less powerful. Never mind how well they actually play, you can’t join these top groups. So where can you go otherwise? With the players who play total meme builds and consider normal Fungal Grotto as endgame. I’ve watched my social guild wither and die over the past year - our guild existed specifically because we wanted to get a friend a vMoL clear, and now there are so few people remaining (and the skill level has backslid incredibly) that the guild can’t even fill a roster for a normal trial and something like normal Ossein takes a full 2h runtime and can’t guarantee a clear.

The entire midtier community is gone. All you have left are the hypersweats who gatekeep everything and the ultracasuals who don’t realize or care that solo overland builds are not good for group content. If you’re not in either of those groups, your choice is to either be frustrated and excluded or to be frustrated trying to play with people who treat you like an NPC.

As for the solution? Well, there isn’t one. At least not an easy one. But it will require the team keeping endgame in mind when designing features. It will require balancing the game to make it so there isn’t just “one playstyle to rule them all.” And it will require trying to balance the freedom casuals want with the structure that endgame requires.

We used to have a thriving midtier community. There used to be Project Vitality to get people into endgame, or the Streamer Trials with the devs, or more guilds with people willing to learn. But as ESO starts to pivot more into the “you don’t need to play with others” mindset, that means the things that do need to be done with others wither. And that leaves us where we are now, where we have a very “play alone together” thought process that even complains how upcoming content that only needs you to zergsurf is bad (while also having a different population complaining that they won’t get private instances of the entire game).

It’s easy to consider how a change you want will affect your life. But not many people are considering how those things could affect others.

This hit the nail on the head sadly. I'm one of those middling players who actually tanked a few vet trials with guildies, but was largely pushed away due to all the specific demands and exploits they wanted us to do in runs that were specifically meant for new-to-vet-trials players. Stuff to make it as hyper easy as possible, because god forbid the DPS having to actually move (yes this was an actual required tactic in one, forcing the healers and tanks to bend over backwards so the DPS literally never had to move.)

I got burnt out from it and the other build demands very quickly, even though we did clear some, it just wasn't fun due to all the demands. I just wanted to play the trials as they were intended, not abuse exploits. Plus we were constantly under a strict time limit and even if we were doing good, there were some runs where we get cut off after like an hour and forced to disband by the leader.

Yet on the flipside, I look around and see all these players who barely know how to function in the rest of the game. I killed SO MANY randos who attacked me during the most recent PvP event on my RP Oakensoul vampire build. He ain't strong, not by any means, and defo not for PVP, but he killed all those idiots who attacked me in Imperial City while I was doing dailies. I know they weren't PvPers, not really, because otherwise I wouldn't have survived if they were. They were just spicy overlanders who thought they could try something, and got curbstomped by a somewhat optimized RP build.

The skill gap is utterly massive now and the amount of middling players is minimal, it's lonely.

Do this example: create a group for any trial and, instead of adding gatekeeping requirements, write something like: "All players welcome — new, veteran, low or high CP". Then show us (with a video) how long it takes to fill. If someone joins and leaves right away, ask them why. I’m 99% sure they’ll leave because the finder is full of low CP's players. After that, explain to me what the actual problem is with low CP's players and draw a conclusion about whether the Finder is dying for some other reason… or simply because people are gatekeeping others.

And in the end, give me a real reason why CP should be visible and why that’s better for the game instead of hiding it.