Sorcerer rework, new class, new systems, house building, and various improvements for ESO

birdmann1230 · February 15

As a sorc main who has played both pet and non pet builds, my biggest beef with them (other than they’re absolutely irritating visually and practically when an entire battle ground is full of twilights) is that th class is locked into using them to maximize what it can do (note this is pre subclassing) . I should not have had to run a double pet build to be competitive in end game pve, or to get a strong burst heal, and I shouldn’t have to nerf the damage or sustain by not using them (I feel the same away about the arcanist beam but that’s another topic). I personally am a big fan of the lighting and dark magic parts of thr class. The best rework of the pet line would ensure one of the morphs wasn’t a pet summons so we have options. I’d say to make the pets work more like the warden where they’re temporary and give people those extra bar slots back but I know folks like to run around with them like the warden bear.

Yudo · February 15

I also think pets should go. Hopefully you are more creative than me but a minimal change could look like this:

Rename Deadric Summoning to Deadric magic.
Rework the two pet skills, so they are not permanent pets but something else in the deadric theme.

Of course a full rework is welcome, as long as we do not end up with perma pets

Radiate77 · February 15

@NxJoeyD Volatile Scamp is incredibly strong in PvP on the right build, it functions as a delayed CC, and with Daedric Prey and Maw of the Infernal, your pets put out pretty decent pressure.

Even still, for two bar spaces, the skill should be more strong, and I would love for Clannfear to have a place in ESO.

Radiate77 · February 15

Yudo wrote: »

I also think pets should go. Hopefully you are more creative than me but a minimal change could look like this:
Rename Deadric Summoning to Deadric magic.

Rework the two pet skills, so they are not permanent pets but something else in the deadric theme.

Of course a full rework is welcome, as long as we do not end up with perma pets

As long as they retain health bars and the ability to absorb damage, I could care less if the skills need to be recast every minute or two.

Eldartar · February 15

Asdara wrote: »

I’ll die on that hill but : Sorcerers ARE lightning.

The Sorcerer is the mage archetype of ESO. Not a faction, not a doctrine, not an organized order. In tes lore, a “sorcerer” is simply a mage who relies on personal power rather than institutional teaching. That freedom is exactly what defines the class.

If we look at the roots of the archetype across the series, Sorcerers embody raw magic force: Destruction for offense, Alteration for protection, and sometimes Conjuration as a tool. But their identity has never been “Daedra specialist” or “dark ritualist”. That fantasy belongs to conjurers, necromancers, or cultists.

The visual identity that consistently defines the Sorcerer fantasy is shock.

(Shock magic in Elder Scrolls has always represented uncontrolled, volatile power. Lightning is fast, violent, and overwhelming. It doesn’t creep like frost or burn steadily like fire. It strikes. It feels like raw magick made visible.)

When you think of a Sorcerer, the fantasy isn’t “Daedric circles and pets everywhere”. It’s a mage standing in the middle of a storm, magicka crackling through the air, electricity dancing across their body.

Look at the original class imagery:

No pets. No Daedric summoning circles. No dark rituals.
What defines the Sorcerer visually is shock energy surrounding them.

That’s the core fantasy.

when the class is being reworked, the direction should embrace that identity. Daedric tools can remain part of the kit, but they shouldn’t dominate the visual language of the class. The Sorcerer shouldn’t feel like a Daedric handler. It should feel like a living storm.

Every ability should feel infused with electricity. Even defensive or utility skills could carry arcs of energy, static effects, or storm auras. Casting should feel like charging the air. Movement should leave traces of lightning. The battlefield should feel saturated with static when a Sorcerer is present.

The fantasy isn’t “summoner with some lightning”.

I have played Sorc as my main since Beta, and this above is just so right, so very right to how I see my Sorcerer. Awesome description @Asdara

LunaFlora · February 15

i think obviously Daedric Summoning is not going anywhere.
And i think we should not expect any skill lines to be removed in the Class Refresh.

Personally i love permanent combat pets, i wish every combat pet to be permanent.
Also wish for them to, if you use both skill bars, not take up 2 slots each.
Skill styles that change the creatures would be awesome definitely.

As with all classes, i hope the Class Refresh will make each Skill morph distinctly different and a good choice for builds.
examples that we already have:
- Arctic Blast and Polar Wind from Warden, one being offensive and the other defensive.
- Scamp and Clannfear are good morphs in Daedric Summoning.
- the new fatecarver-like Engulfing Dragonfire morph for Dragonknight being a channeled Area of Effect versus the other morph being instant cast Damage over Time aoe.
- Cleansing Ritual, like Warden's wind, has damage and healing morphs.

Cyrodiil
Different architecture for the keeps would be awesome in PvP.

Though personally it would be more awesome to get a new Cyrod zone with an actual zone story, assets from dlc zones like Blackwood and West Weald, and an end to the war.
We got peace talks in High isle, Stirk Fellowship in Solstice, surely we should get some peace after this? especially since new stories are finally supposed to be after 2e 582.

GUILD OF CRAFT MASTERS
sounds good, i also want towns like Firsthold to be rebuilt and not be burning forever.
Also hoping for a rebuilt imperial City as a new zone.

i love Housing so i always support more furniture.
more High isle structures would be especially nice.

edited to add: i was thinking about High Elf structures when typing the previous sentence, but really all architecture styles should have structural furniture.

tinythinker · February 15

Malyore wrote: »

The thing with adding new classes is, if people want to use that new class (not just the one line from multi/subclassing) then they have to make a whole new character.

I'd rather see them introduce more diverse morphs. For Daedric summoning, have the base pet be one role, a morphed pet be another role, and allow one of the morphs to not be a pet at all but some other form of spell.

There's no good reason that the unmorphed skills have to just be a worse version of the morphs. Yes, there's a very very short window of a sense of progression when leveling up the skill, but that is trivial compared to player options and role diversity, etc.

@ZOS_Kevin For an unthought example: The base twilight can be the one that heals, a morphed twilight can be the dps, and the other morph can be a player aura that reduces enemy damage and armor.
So, in just one skill you have the choice between which role you play, and for people who don't like to use pets we still get some sort of useful skill.

For what it's worth: My preference for these kind of issues is to 1) rename "sub-classing" to "multi-classing" and 2) add another skill line to each class, to add more variety within a class as "sub-classing". It would be quicker and easier to add than making variations of a class in new classes.

NxJoeyD · February 15

Radiate77 wrote: »

@NxJoeyD Volatile Scamp is incredibly strong in PvP on the right build, it functions as a delayed CC, and with Daedric Prey and Maw of the Infernal, your pets put out pretty decent pressure.

Even still, for two bar spaces, the skill should be more strong, and I would love for Clannfear to have a place in ESO.

The Scamp really isn’t IMO. Now with Subclassing there’s so much CC being spammed because so many more sources are available to so many more people. The Scamps CC potential isn’t like a direct cast or even a ground based AoE cast that you can precisely manage, it’s chance based and most experienced players know how to avoid Sorc pets. We see so much more CC immunity out there the prospect of a Scamp stun doesn’t amount to much anymore.

I do see a couple of MoI sets still in PvP but not nearly as many. I see them mostly in Sorcs running the old default heavy attack builds which I see fewer and fewer of in PvP. HA Sorc builds are relatively low tier anymore in terms of PvP effectiveness given how combat has changed since subclassing.

Subclassing brought such a new dynamic to combat because it enabled combinations of skills and mechanics which were never available before and which (in come cases) probably shouldn’t exist, but here we are. Those changes have really made the flaws in the design of Sorc pets much more apparent.

PvP combat has a faster pace. No longer is it feasible for a Sorc to sit behind pets and heavy attack and think that they’re going to be effective or contribute in PvP; if that’s a Sorcs play style they’re going to fall behind.

There’s so many gap closers and hard + soft CC combinations, various range debuffs, etc available and the need to swap focus on a target will change at a lightning pace, more than in the past. Sorc pets are just too slow to respond.

I’m a Sorc and no Scamp poses even a slight threat to me, the damage is too low even with Daedric Prey to even scratch the surface of people’s damage mitigation. You have players running persistent HoT that crit every 8 or 9 out of 10 ticks! That means they’re out healing even the strongest Pet output and that’s assuming they wanted to stand there and take it, which they don’t, they just avoid them. Sorc pets don’t leap across the screen like a Blas Bones and to direct them is clumsy, especially when you have to refocus.

the Sorcs I see running these pets find them easily avoided and the Sorcs immediately placed on the defense, doing the ‘ol “run & heal” combo to get out of town. I can easily deal with these builds and I’m not a Crit Sorc.

I can scribe Weld Soul to be more effective, in just about any combination, than either Sorc pet when it comes to what you get for the cost.

Sorcs with pets are essentially cheerleaders. If they have squad mates constantly covering them then they can get a few licks in but they can’t hold their own, and that’s a problem.

Malyore · February 15

RebornV3x wrote: »

your going to get a useless class that is bad at both spell casting and pets that suck.

How?

RebornV3x wrote: »

Unless ZOS is gonna give Sorcerer another skill line or two to accommodate both play styles they have to choose battle mage or summoner.

Why?

RebornV3x wrote: »

The Sorcerer can not continue to be pulled in two different directions at once

Why?

Radiate77 · February 15

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

@NxJoeyD Volatile Scamp is incredibly strong in PvP on the right build, it functions as a delayed CC, and with Daedric Prey and Maw of the Infernal, your pets put out pretty decent pressure.

Even still, for two bar spaces, the skill should be more strong, and I would love for Clannfear to have a place in ESO.

The Scamp really isn’t IMO. Now with Subclassing there’s so much CC being spammed because so many more sources are available to so many more people. The Scamps CC potential isn’t like a direct cast or even a ground based AoE cast that you can precisely manage, it’s chance based and most experienced players know how to avoid Sorc pets. We see so much more CC immunity out there the prospect of a Scamp stun doesn’t amount to much anymore.

I do see a couple of MoI sets still in PvP but not nearly as many. I see them mostly in Sorcs running the old default heavy attack builds which I see fewer and fewer of in PvP. HA Sorc builds are relatively low tier anymore in terms of PvP effectiveness given how combat has changed since subclassing.

Subclassing brought such a new dynamic to combat because it enabled combinations of skills and mechanics which were never available before and which (in come cases) probably shouldn’t exist, but here we are. Those changes have really made the flaws in the design of Sorc pets much more apparent.

PvP combat has a faster pace. No longer is it feasible for a Sorc to sit behind pets and heavy attack and think that they’re going to be effective or contribute in PvP; if that’s a Sorcs play style they’re going to fall behind.

There’s so many gap closers and hard + soft CC combinations, various range debuffs, etc available and the need to swap focus on a target will change at a lightning pace, more than in the past. Sorc pets are just too slow to respond.

I’m a Sorc and no Scamp poses even a slight threat to me, the damage is too low even with Daedric Prey to even scratch the surface of people’s damage mitigation. You have players running persistent HoT that crit every 8 or 9 out of 10 ticks! That means they’re out healing even the strongest Pet output and that’s assuming they wanted to stand there and take it, which they don’t, they just avoid them. Sorc pets don’t leap across the screen like a Blas Bones and to direct them is clumsy, especially when you have to refocus.

the Sorcs I see running these pets find them easily avoided and the Sorcs immediately placed on the defense, doing the ‘ol “run & heal” combo to get out of town. I can easily deal with these builds and I’m not a Crit Sorc.

I can scribe Weld Soul to be more effective, in just about any combination, than either Sorc pet when it comes to what you get for the cost.

Sorcs with pets are essentially cheerleaders. If they have squad mates constantly covering them then they can get a few licks in but they can’t hold their own, and that’s a problem.

It’s incredibly rare to find people who know how to use the pets, so I get the skepticism, but an AoE unblockable CC that is timed, and ranged, is not something to scoff at.

Is it annoying when your Scamp gets stunned and is sitting there helpless? Yeah. But you can command your pet to retreat back to you for a reset, if need be.

Some builds take advantage of the LoS the skills provide, like my Max Stam pet Sorc. Being able to kite my pet to avoid overpowered Spec Bows, Incaps, and Jesus Beams has saved my life countless times. Ignoring the LoS potential, chip damage is everything, and while Scamp hits nowhere near a Spammable, it functions as an incredibly strong DoT when activated and attacking a cursed target. I often hear people I fight complain and say that it feels like fighting a DoT DK, and the only chip damage I have is Hurricane, Vateshran, Scamp, and Daedroth. And on top of that…

Hurricane is AoE
Scamp is AoE
Curse is AoE
Reverse Slice is AoE
Black Rose Greatsword is AoE
Daedroth is AoE

When I say that I’m topping every Battlegrounds leaderboard for damage and kills on a Pet Build, it’s no joke. This is my one of my favorite builds, and is why I’m in favor of adding a Conjuration Skill line and yanking it away from Sorcerer… then I could make even crazier combinations with LESS limitation.

I just wish Scamp & Matriarch weren’t the only viable PvP pet skills, as the activated abilities of every other morph, along with Bear taking a ult spot, provide less than 200% value when they take up 200% bar space.

NxJoeyD · February 15

Malyore wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

your going to get a useless class that is bad at both spell casting and pets that suck.

How?

RebornV3x wrote: »

Unless ZOS is gonna give Sorcerer another skill line or two to accommodate both play styles they have to choose battle mage or summoner.

Why?

RebornV3x wrote: »

The Sorcerer can not continue to be pulled in two different directions at once

Why?

I’ve spent a lot of time comparatively looking at our abilities as well as combat mechanics post subclassing; happy to give my insights here:

1) How would we end up with a useless class?: Well, that’s a bit of an extreme statement but, to be fair, the 3 Sorc pets are mechanically inferior to other Summons that now exist in the game, namely Necromancers. Sorc pets deal very little damage by way of scaling, don’t provide much utility, and worse of all, their UI / control factor make them incredibly poor contributors in current combat. .. Sorcs have a strong self heal by way of Vibrant Shroud so the Twlight pets main benefit is redundant. When compared to Necros Colosus the Sorc Atronach doesn’t come close to being as effective. The Famialir really brings noting of benefit. Each of these pets take up a potential ability space and cost resources to summon and additional resource to trigger.

The mechanics of the pets are just as bad as their tooltip values and that’s the real crutch here.

When we look at all of the things Sorcs are lacking in terms of buff & utility we can start to see where opportunity cost of running these pets hurts. While Sorc won’t be useless with pets they will be far less competitive.

2) ZoS will need to choose between battle mage or summoner: I agree with this. Remover, we play in a game state that has subclassing and every class is receiving reworks. Subclassing alone raises the bar on combat mechanics and output so trying to split Sorc between two types of concentration will only see the class being mediocre at both rather than good at either.

There are only a limited number of skill lines & passives available to offer. In order to properly support summoners we have to allocate the skill spaces, plus, to do it properly; we’d need associated passives. This takes up a lot of our skill spaces which means that any Sorc not choosing to run pets becomes limited in the choices they can make.

Part of these class refreshes aren’t just to address subclassing, yes that’s part of it, but we also want to encourage people to choose to play an all Sorc build. In order to do that we have to offer compleling choices that make sense and bring value.

3) The Sorcerer cannot continue to be pulled in two different directions at once: .. When ZoS made Necromancers the effective summer, power & mechanics wise, they immediately eroded the summoning potential of Sorcs. They gave Necros an array of pets that behave very differently (mechanically), most being temporary. As a result we’re seeing those skills flourish whereas Sorc pets went by the wayside. Again, it’s not just low numbers but it’s how poorly Sorc pets are mechanically built.

Splitting the class focus takes away potential to give the class much needed skills that fill in the gaps Sorcs currently have.

Look at all of the current Sorc skills; we have a slew of crowd control, limited damage mechanics, and a handful of actually good utility. .. Sorcs bring tools to the table, currently, but not a lot else. This is why we’ve historically seen Sorcs lean on limited play styles such as heavy attack or switching to Stam based and running world skills.

If Sorcs had pets that mechanically behaved with more dynamic such as quicker responsiveness to target or refocus, better damage application mechanics then we’d still have something solid that we could modify and get a benefit from. But as it is, even if you made a Scamp or Twilight tool tip goo gobs of damage it still wouldn’t matter because the pets are too slow, don’t apply rapidly enough, aren’t quick to control and refocus, and are just too easy to avoid by your opponents.

Look at Betty Netch, that’s a great example of a powerful passive utility pet. Not in the way, provides self cleanses / buffs, requires cost to reactivate so it’s not permanent; it’s well thought out and provides value.

NxJoeyD · February 15

Radiate77 wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

@NxJoeyD Volatile Scamp is incredibly strong in PvP on the right build, it functions as a delayed CC, and with Daedric Prey and Maw of the Infernal, your pets put out pretty decent pressure.

Even still, for two bar spaces, the skill should be more strong, and I would love for Clannfear to have a place in ESO.

The Scamp really isn’t IMO. Now with Subclassing there’s so much CC being spammed because so many more sources are available to so many more people. The Scamps CC potential isn’t like a direct cast or even a ground based AoE cast that you can precisely manage, it’s chance based and most experienced players know how to avoid Sorc pets. We see so much more CC immunity out there the prospect of a Scamp stun doesn’t amount to much anymore.

I do see a couple of MoI sets still in PvP but not nearly as many. I see them mostly in Sorcs running the old default heavy attack builds which I see fewer and fewer of in PvP. HA Sorc builds are relatively low tier anymore in terms of PvP effectiveness given how combat has changed since subclassing.

Subclassing brought such a new dynamic to combat because it enabled combinations of skills and mechanics which were never available before and which (in come cases) probably shouldn’t exist, but here we are. Those changes have really made the flaws in the design of Sorc pets much more apparent.

PvP combat has a faster pace. No longer is it feasible for a Sorc to sit behind pets and heavy attack and think that they’re going to be effective or contribute in PvP; if that’s a Sorcs play style they’re going to fall behind.

There’s so many gap closers and hard + soft CC combinations, various range debuffs, etc available and the need to swap focus on a target will change at a lightning pace, more than in the past. Sorc pets are just too slow to respond.

I’m a Sorc and no Scamp poses even a slight threat to me, the damage is too low even with Daedric Prey to even scratch the surface of people’s damage mitigation. You have players running persistent HoT that crit every 8 or 9 out of 10 ticks! That means they’re out healing even the strongest Pet output and that’s assuming they wanted to stand there and take it, which they don’t, they just avoid them. Sorc pets don’t leap across the screen like a Blas Bones and to direct them is clumsy, especially when you have to refocus.

the Sorcs I see running these pets find them easily avoided and the Sorcs immediately placed on the defense, doing the ‘ol “run & heal” combo to get out of town. I can easily deal with these builds and I’m not a Crit Sorc.

I can scribe Weld Soul to be more effective, in just about any combination, than either Sorc pet when it comes to what you get for the cost.

Sorcs with pets are essentially cheerleaders. If they have squad mates constantly covering them then they can get a few licks in but they can’t hold their own, and that’s a problem.

It’s incredibly rare to find people who know how to use the pets, so I get the skepticism, but an AoE unblockable CC that is timed, and ranged, is not something to scoff at.

Is it annoying when your Scamp gets stunned and is sitting there helpless? Yeah. But you can command your pet to retreat back to you for a reset, if need be.

Some builds take advantage of the LoS the skills provide, like my Max Stam pet Sorc. Being able to kite my pet to avoid overpowered Spec Bows, Incaps, and Jesus Beams has saved my life countless times. Ignoring the LoS potential, chip damage is everything, and while Scamp hits nowhere near a Spammable, it functions as an incredibly strong DoT when activated and attacking a cursed target. I often hear people I fight complain and say that it feels like fighting a DoT DK, and the only chip damage I have is Hurricane, Vateshran, Scamp, and Daedroth. And on top of that…

Hurricane is AoE
Scamp is AoE
Curse is AoE
Reverse Slice is AoE
Black Rose Greatsword is AoE
Daedroth is AoE

When I say that I’m topping every Battlegrounds leaderboard for damage and kills on a Pet Build, it’s no joke. This is my one of my favorite builds, and is why I’m in favor of adding a Conjuration Skill line and yanking it away from Sorcerer… then I could make even crazier combinations with LESS limitation.

I just wish Scamp & Matriarch weren’t the only viable PvP pet skills, as the activated abilities of every other morph, along with Bear taking a ult spot, provide less than 200% value when they take up 200% bar space.

Interesting approach. Are you on PC? I absolutely 100% never see pet Sorcs at the top of any PvP leaderboard .. whether we’re taking BG matches or Cyrodill.

What I do see is a lot of the crit meta and meta skills and Sorc pets are simply no match.

AoE isn’t awful but remember, AoE is avoidable and players are becoming more AoE aware given that Deep Fissure is so abused. Player movements and attention to area effects has gone up. Combat migration moves at an even faster pace since subclassing has dropped.

The lions share of players now in PvP are physical / mele crit builds which really further reduces pet effectiveness. Our pets aren’t quick and when we have to re-trigger a pet action it cuts into our rotations. Effective combat now sees proper timing, quick execution of skill, high mobility, and greater area awareness.

The few Sorc pets I do see get no chance because players simply use gap closers plus CC to overwhelm the Sorc and immediately put them on the defense.

If I spend Mag to CC my opponent I’m looking for certainty that the skill was applied; yes, the target could be immune but there was no question as to the application, it’s not chance based.

Our Pets are entirely chance based because they’re AoE and they’re slow. Any player worth their weight quickly learns how to avoid AoE.

To your point; yes; they’re absolutely a body block and will protect from incoming range but in a game where melee has become so much stronger that’s our Pets achilles heel … simply proc immunity and close distance or avoid the Pet and close distance before they can get back to the summoner.

The problem with DoTs anymore in PvP is Crit self heal scaling. We’re seeing players able to self burst heal for between 15k to 30k in one cast, with Battle Spirit active. They also run a persistent HoT that’s critical ticking so DoTs are very quickly losing favor in PvP for stronger bursts.

I can’t speak for your opponents but I can counter Sorc pets incredibly easily. Maybe being a Sorc and understanding their limits helps, but I can say this, from what we all know about players, if Sorc pets brought strong value that was hard to counter we’d see a lot more people playing them. People love leaning on hard to counter mechanics, whether they’re experienced players or not. The fact that Sorc pets are becoming an endangered species whilst more people slot Necro summons tells us a lot.

Yudo · February 15

Current Daedric skill line feels like I have access to only half of the skills and some of the passive because I do not want to use pets. Really wish I could make full use of the passives and skills.

2 dedicated perma pets, a curse morph dedicated to pets. At least the ult is not permanent.
Passives based on "if pet" or "if no pet". Class set butchered with the same logic.
Class rework should focus on allowing non pet sorc to fully utilise all skills and passives.
Conjuring ward and bound armor are otherwise perfect.

Even if we wanted to stick to theme of summoning, something like Baron Thirsk set capture the theme of summoning pets without being permanent? It summons the scamp, it does the thing, is temporary, does some damage, maybe healing.

But these are just some thoughts. If I could choose, no pets summoning at all! Give it to warden, necro, or move it to another class like OP suggests. The idea of potentially replacing summoning with a difference school of magic is actually very very interesting.

Radiate77 · February 15

@NxJoeyD, Xbox NA, I can message you both variants of the build if you want to try it, and none of the listed AoE are avoidable, Scamp and Daedroth chase people, Hurricane is on top of me, and I’m on top of my opponents with Black Rose Greatsword and Reverse Slice, and if you want to throw on Tether instead of the Greatsword, that works too.

Melee can take great advantage of Scamp LoS, as your primary target marked by Daedric Prey (another AoE) is immediately under aggro from all of your pets.

You say good pet build players are uncommon, I agree, and that’s my favorite part of the skill line. It’s incredibly accessible, and has a steep skill curve with knowing how to command your pets, and a knowledge check with several “pet sets” that all suck and tank your build if you’re unaware of how damage works.

Radiate77 · February 15

Yudo wrote: »

But these are just some thoughts. If I could choose, no pets summoning at all! Give it to warden, necro, or move it to another class like OP suggests. The idea of potentially replacing summoning with a difference school of magic is actually very very interesting.

Conjuration Staff when?

Malyore · February 15

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

your going to get a useless class that is bad at both spell casting and pets that suck.

How?

RebornV3x wrote: »

Unless ZOS is gonna give Sorcerer another skill line or two to accommodate both play styles they have to choose battle mage or summoner.

Why?

RebornV3x wrote: »

The Sorcerer can not continue to be pulled in two different directions at once

Why?

I’ve spent a lot of time comparatively looking at our abilities as well as combat mechanics post subclassing; happy to give my insights here:

1) How would we end up with a useless class?: Well, that’s a bit of an extreme statement but, to be fair, the 3 Sorc pets are mechanically inferior to other Summons that now exist in the game, namely Necromancers. Sorc pets deal very little damage by way of scaling, don’t provide much utility, and worse of all, their UI / control factor make them incredibly poor contributors in current combat. .. Sorcs have a strong self heal by way of Vibrant Shroud so the Twlight pets main benefit is redundant. When compared to Necros Colosus the Sorc Atronach doesn’t come close to being as effective. The Famialir really brings noting of benefit. Each of these pets take up a potential ability space and cost resources to summon and additional resource to trigger.

The mechanics of the pets are just as bad as their tooltip values and that’s the real crutch here.

When we look at all of the things Sorcs are lacking in terms of buff & utility we can start to see where opportunity cost of running these pets hurts. While Sorc won’t be useless with pets they will be far less competitive.

Thanks for your insights.
So is this point based off of current pets then? How will we know that they will still underperform after the class refresh?

NxJoeyD wrote: »

2) ZoS will need to choose between battle mage or summoner: I agree with this. Remover, we play in a game state that has subclassing and every class is receiving reworks. Subclassing alone raises the bar on combat mechanics and output so trying to split Sorc between two types of concentration will only see the class being mediocre at both rather than good at either.

There are only a limited number of skill lines & passives available to offer. In order to properly support summoners we have to allocate the skill spaces, plus, to do it properly; we’d need associated passives. This takes up a lot of our skill spaces which means that any Sorc not choosing to run pets becomes limited in the choices they can make.

Part of these class refreshes aren’t just to address subclassing, yes that’s part of it, but we also want to encourage people to choose to play an all Sorc build. In order to do that we have to offer compleling choices that make sense and bring value.

Yes, there are finite amount of skills. ZOS has already begun experimenting with supporting both playstyles in skill lines and gear by adding dual-functionality to them. This heavily negates the concern about limited skills and passives, and it is a trend that can be expanded.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

3) The Sorcerer cannot continue to be pulled in two different directions at once: .. When ZoS made Necromancers the effective summer, power & mechanics wise, they immediately eroded the summoning potential of Sorcs. They gave Necros an array of pets that behave very differently (mechanically), most being temporary. As a result we’re seeing those skills flourish whereas Sorc pets went by the wayside. Again, it’s not just low numbers but it’s how poorly Sorc pets are mechanically built.

Splitting the class focus takes away potential to give the class much needed skills that fill in the gaps Sorcs currently have.

Look at all of the current Sorc skills; we have a slew of crowd control, limited damage mechanics, and a handful of actually good utility. .. Sorcs bring tools to the table, currently, but not a lot else. This is why we’ve historically seen Sorcs lean on limited play styles such as heavy attack or switching to Stam based and running world skills.

If Sorcs had pets that mechanically behaved with more dynamic such as quicker responsiveness to target or refocus, better damage application mechanics then we’d still have something solid that we could modify and get a benefit from. But as it is, even if you made a Scamp or Twilight tool tip goo gobs of damage it still wouldn’t matter because the pets are too slow, don’t apply rapidly enough, aren’t quick to control and refocus, and are just too easy to avoid by your opponents.

Look at Betty Netch, that’s a great example of a powerful passive utility pet. Not in the way, provides self cleanses / buffs, requires cost to reactivate so it’s not permanent; it’s well thought out and provides value.

So if pets are underperforming mechanically, how will they do better by being shoved into somewhere else? It's the mechanics and function that are one of the major things that need addressed in the refresh. Doing this alongside supporting non-pet skills doesn't need to detract or "take away potential" from its development. The purpose of a dedicated refresh is to give the class the proper attention it deserves, yes?

NxJoeyD · February 15

Radiate77 wrote: »

@NxJoeyD, Xbox NA, I can message you both variants of the build if you want to try it, and none of the listed AoE are avoidable, Scamp and Daedroth chase people, Hurricane is on top of me, and I’m on top of my opponents with Black Rose Greatsword and Reverse Slice, and if you want to throw on Tether instead of the Greatsword, that works too.

Melee can take great advantage of Scamp LoS, as your primary target marked by Daedric Prey (another AoE) is immediately under aggro from all of your pets.

You say good pet build players are uncommon, I agree, and that’s my favorite part of the skill line. It’s incredibly accessible, and has a steep skill curve with knowing how to command your pets, and a knowledge check with several “pet sets” that all suck and tank your build if you’re unaware of how damage works.

I’m on Xbox NA as well.

Well Hurricane is AoE but that’s not pet related so pets have no bearing on that.

Sure, pets follow but they’re slow. A player can just outrun them to remain outside of their AoE as they close distance. A good number of players wouldn’t bother because why bother, they don’t do enough damage even with Daedric Prey to even worry about on the current state of damage mitigation.

I literally dueled a Sorc maybe 10 minutes ago who was running a Twilight, Clanfear, and Warden Bear, I literally ignored all 3 of them, kept moving to force them to chase and just focused on the Sorc. Sure they got some attacks in but none that did any real damage.

Good Sorc pet players are uncommon, in part because people haven’t spent time with them but more so because they’ve quickly realized that there are more effective / efficient options out there.

NxJoeyD · February 15

Malyore wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

your going to get a useless class that is bad at both spell casting and pets that suck.

How?

RebornV3x wrote: »

Unless ZOS is gonna give Sorcerer another skill line or two to accommodate both play styles they have to choose battle mage or summoner.

Why?

RebornV3x wrote: »

The Sorcerer can not continue to be pulled in two different directions at once

Why?

I’ve spent a lot of time comparatively looking at our abilities as well as combat mechanics post subclassing; happy to give my insights here:

1) How would we end up with a useless class?: Well, that’s a bit of an extreme statement but, to be fair, the 3 Sorc pets are mechanically inferior to other Summons that now exist in the game, namely Necromancers. Sorc pets deal very little damage by way of scaling, don’t provide much utility, and worse of all, their UI / control factor make them incredibly poor contributors in current combat. .. Sorcs have a strong self heal by way of Vibrant Shroud so the Twlight pets main benefit is redundant. When compared to Necros Colosus the Sorc Atronach doesn’t come close to being as effective. The Famialir really brings noting of benefit. Each of these pets take up a potential ability space and cost resources to summon and additional resource to trigger.

The mechanics of the pets are just as bad as their tooltip values and that’s the real crutch here.

When we look at all of the things Sorcs are lacking in terms of buff & utility we can start to see where opportunity cost of running these pets hurts. While Sorc won’t be useless with pets they will be far less competitive.

Thanks for your insights.
So is this point based off of current pets then? How will we know that they will still underperform after the class refresh?

NxJoeyD wrote: »

2) ZoS will need to choose between battle mage or summoner: I agree with this. Remover, we play in a game state that has subclassing and every class is receiving reworks. Subclassing alone raises the bar on combat mechanics and output so trying to split Sorc between two types of concentration will only see the class being mediocre at both rather than good at either.

There are only a limited number of skill lines & passives available to offer. In order to properly support summoners we have to allocate the skill spaces, plus, to do it properly; we’d need associated passives. This takes up a lot of our skill spaces which means that any Sorc not choosing to run pets becomes limited in the choices they can make.

Part of these class refreshes aren’t just to address subclassing, yes that’s part of it, but we also want to encourage people to choose to play an all Sorc build. In order to do that we have to offer compleling choices that make sense and bring value.

Yes, there are finite amount of skills. ZOS has already begun experimenting with supporting both playstyles in skill lines and gear by adding dual-functionality to them. This heavily negates the concern about limited skills and passives, and it is a trend that can be expanded.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

3) The Sorcerer cannot continue to be pulled in two different directions at once: .. When ZoS made Necromancers the effective summer, power & mechanics wise, they immediately eroded the summoning potential of Sorcs. They gave Necros an array of pets that behave very differently (mechanically), most being temporary. As a result we’re seeing those skills flourish whereas Sorc pets went by the wayside. Again, it’s not just low numbers but it’s how poorly Sorc pets are mechanically built.

Splitting the class focus takes away potential to give the class much needed skills that fill in the gaps Sorcs currently have.

Look at all of the current Sorc skills; we have a slew of crowd control, limited damage mechanics, and a handful of actually good utility. .. Sorcs bring tools to the table, currently, but not a lot else. This is why we’ve historically seen Sorcs lean on limited play styles such as heavy attack or switching to Stam based and running world skills.

If Sorcs had pets that mechanically behaved with more dynamic such as quicker responsiveness to target or refocus, better damage application mechanics then we’d still have something solid that we could modify and get a benefit from. But as it is, even if you made a Scamp or Twilight tool tip goo gobs of damage it still wouldn’t matter because the pets are too slow, don’t apply rapidly enough, aren’t quick to control and refocus, and are just too easy to avoid by your opponents.

Look at Betty Netch, that’s a great example of a powerful passive utility pet. Not in the way, provides self cleanses / buffs, requires cost to reactivate so it’s not permanent; it’s well thought out and provides value.

So if pets are underperforming mechanically, how will they do better by being shoved into somewhere else? It's the mechanics and function that are one of the major things that need addressed in the refresh. Doing this alongside supporting non-pet skills doesn't need to detract or "take away potential" from its development. The purpose of a dedicated refresh is to give the class the proper attention it deserves, yes?

So as it’s my understanding, no; not the fundamental mechanics.

Yes the Devs could add a buff / debuff element to Sorc pets but there’s counterplay or opportunity cost considerations there too.

I have not seen anywhere that the refresh would address the core mechanical workings of the Sorc pets. This is one point I’ve been trying to clarify, that it’s not necessarily about adjusting tool tip values or adding attributes to the existing platform of the Sorc pets to “refresh” them, it’s looking at how they function mechanically.

The devs are not re-writing the game engine here. It’s unrealistic to ask for things that require that and to improve Sorc pet functionality to make them able to compete along side the skills that are out there would require such a re-write.

We’d also have to keep them lore-centric which only adds challenge.

If we had Sorc pet mechanics that saw them have higher mobility, more rapid application of beneficial damage, or better crowd control mechanics that more supported holding an area at least you’d have something to work with.

Another complaint is the target prioritization these things have. We can control the pets but that control is clumsy, epically given the high rate of player mobility. So when one wants to precisely target an opponent with the current lag and latency paired with the high movement makes this clumsy. The AI prioritization that our pets use is questionable too.

These fundamental mechanics make the Sorc pets fall behind when compared to the mechanical workings of other summons and how those mechanics apply output.

I’ve said this before, if the Devs are willing to re work the fundamental mechanics of the pets, then we have something to talk about, but as it stands we haven’t seen anything that says that’s part of the refresh.

Turtle_Bot · February 16

Radiate77 wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

But these are just some thoughts. If I could choose, no pets summoning at all! Give it to warden, necro, or move it to another class like OP suggests. The idea of potentially replacing summoning with a difference school of magic is actually very very interesting.

Conjuration Staff when?

This is probably the only way ZOS is going to satisfy both sides of the Sorc playstyle debate (well this alongside a full refresh of destro staff).

By splitting off the summoning/pet aspect of daedric summoning into a new staff type (easier/cheaper to implement than an entirely new weapon since it won't require brand new motif art for 500+ styles) and allowing the conjuration line to focus more on things like armor, weapons, wards, etc. while allowing all classes to use pets via the conjuration staff (that would assumedly come with a full pet system rework as well as a brand new scribed ability) would allow much more flexibility for pet builds (since they would no longer be tied to 3 specific class lines, just 2 now for max summons) while also freeing Sorcerer from it's curse of being pulled in too many different directions.

Turtle_Bot · February 16

For those who are unaware, ZOS tried to buff non-pet Sorcerers back in U41, but there were so many issues (both back then and since then) that meant it failed completely, because it was essentially just a tooltip adjustment, not the full rework that the class needed:

1. The sheer tooltip values required to make the abilities competitive, made them broken at a fundamental level, see Hardened Ward.
2. Many fundamental non-pet abilities (ward, aegis/armaments, curse, max stat passives) were tied to the pet skill line but none of the fundamental pet abilities (at least in terms of the active skills) were tied to the other sorc lines.
3. Many of the Sorcerer class skills were still clunky to use, awkward radius/AoE sizes, hidden cast times/cast delays, etc.

This is the issue with the 2 class split that Sorcerer has. To make either playstyle functional, with the current designs/mechanics it requires broken tooltip values or secondary effects that just don't fit the game as evidenced in U41 and compounded with the introduction of sub-classing because it's trying to fit 6 skill lines worth of abilities/effects into just 3 and that just doesn't work from a fundamental level.

Untying a lot of Sorcerer from the pets (not complete separation, but bringing it back to focusing on conjuration to enhance the Sorcerer similar to how non-pet abilities (and atro) from the daedric summoning line do this, instead of being full on summoner), shifting pets/summons focus over to Necro (a class/theme that revolves around summons as it's main "gimmick"/mechanic) would help a lot and would actually fit with ZOS's timeline with Necro being one of the latter classes to get it's rework (which could potentially indicate it's getting the pets as it's main theme alongside a proper pet system rework being so far in the future).

Surprising as it sounds, the Vengeance tests actually showed that pet abilities can maintain their theming while making them actually functional and viable abilities that would work for both PvP and PvE (with some smaller adjustments). The key to this working though, was the fact that they became actual DoTs instead of body blocking pets with health bars and AI.

The Scamp became a targeted sticky DoT that spawned a scamp on the target that dealt damage over it's duration. Take this concept and make it a long duration targeted AoE DoT and give it a synergy that could function as the "secondary ability".

The Matriarch became a proper single target heal like HtD. Take this concept then have the synergy that gives a HoT and a buff (being a synergy gives it an inherent (forced) cooldown, prevent the HoT/buff from being spammed).

Clannfear and Tormentor would need their own similar adjustments, but I would assume Clannfear would get tanking mechanics such as a taunt/CC and tormentor might get some sort of execute mechanic.

Radiate77 · February 16

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Surprising as it sounds, the Vengeance tests actually showed that pet abilities can maintain their theming while making them actually functional and viable abilities that would work for both PvP and PvE (with some smaller adjustments). The key to this working though, was the fact that they became actual DoTs instead of body blocking pets with health bars and AI.
The Scamp became a targeted sticky DoT that spawned a scamp on the target that dealt damage over it's duration. Take this concept and make it a long duration targeted AoE DoT and give it a synergy that could function as the "secondary ability".

The Matriarch became a proper single target heal like HtD. Take this concept then have the synergy that gives a HoT and a buff (being a synergy gives it an inherent (forced) cooldown, prevent the HoT/buff from being spammed).

Clannfear and Tormentor would need their own similar adjustments, but I would assume Clannfear would get tanking mechanics such as a taunt/CC and tormentor might get some sort of execute mechanic.

How pets functioned in Vengeance was abhorrent.

Pets blocking damage IS the point, and removing that completely kills them in concept. Nobody wants just another boring DoT.

Faltasë · February 16

I'd like more lightning in my Sorcerer please.

spartaxoxo · February 16

Other skills being clunky has little to do with the Daedric Summoning line, which already works very well. Pet Summons are already balanced against non-pet skills by requiring 4-6 slots to function properly. 2 on each bar for the pets and maybe Daedric Prey and the Atro. This means that pet Sorcs already cannot load up on non-pet sorc skills.

Radiate77 · February 16

I would be cautious suggesting a buff to all pets, and instead focus on morphs that need help most.

Twilight Tormentor and Clannfear come to mind.

NxJoeyD · February 16

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

For those who are unaware, ZOS tried to buff non-pet Sorcerers back in U41, but there were so many issues (both back then and since then) that meant it failed completely, because it was essentially just a tooltip adjustment, not the full rework that the class needed:

1. The sheer tooltip values required to make the abilities competitive, made them broken at a fundamental level, see Hardened Ward.
2. Many fundamental non-pet abilities (ward, aegis/armaments, curse, max stat passives) were tied to the pet skill line but none of the fundamental pet abilities (at least in terms of the active skills) were tied to the other sorc lines.
3. Many of the Sorcerer class skills were still clunky to use, awkward radius/AoE sizes, hidden cast times/cast delays, etc.

This is the issue with the 2 class split that Sorcerer has. To make either playstyle functional, with the current designs/mechanics it requires broken tooltip values or secondary effects that just don't fit the game as evidenced in U41 and compounded with the introduction of sub-classing because it's trying to fit 6 skill lines worth of abilities/effects into just 3 and that just doesn't work from a fundamental level.

Untying a lot of Sorcerer from the pets (not complete separation, but bringing it back to focusing on conjuration to enhance the Sorcerer similar to how non-pet abilities (and atro) from the daedric summoning line do this, instead of being full on summoner), shifting pets/summons focus over to Necro (a class/theme that revolves around summons as it's main "gimmick"/mechanic) would help a lot and would actually fit with ZOS's timeline with Necro being one of the latter classes to get it's rework (which could potentially indicate it's getting the pets as it's main theme alongside a proper pet system rework being so far in the future).

Surprising as it sounds, the Vengeance tests actually showed that pet abilities can maintain their theming while making them actually functional and viable abilities that would work for both PvP and PvE (with some smaller adjustments). The key to this working though, was the fact that they became actual DoTs instead of body blocking pets with health bars and AI.
The Scamp became a targeted sticky DoT that spawned a scamp on the target that dealt damage over it's duration. Take this concept and make it a long duration targeted AoE DoT and give it a synergy that could function as the "secondary ability".

The Matriarch became a proper single target heal like HtD. Take this concept then have the synergy that gives a HoT and a buff (being a synergy gives it an inherent (forced) cooldown, prevent the HoT/buff from being spammed).

Clannfear and Tormentor would need their own similar adjustments, but I would assume Clannfear would get tanking mechanics such as a taunt/CC and tormentor might get some sort of execute mechanic.

The main apprehension I have with Vengeance is that it’s not reflective of the state of gameplay. Vengeance works, in part, because of forced limitations that ensure balance. In the grander scope of the game, without those limitations, that’s where the pet mechanics start to fall short.

The idea of a conjuring line associated with the staff is actually a great suggestion. This would give players the option of running pets, if they chose to, but wouldn’t necessarily tie the pets to the Sorc class, per se. Since subclassing is a thing it’s not as though any sort of skill is class identity limited anyway so there’s no problem having the pets move to an independent conjuring line.

ZhuJiuyin · February 16

Some may have forgotten, but before subclasses were introduced, the most commonly used Mythic Item in Sorc was Oakensoul. Besides the fact that Sorc's class skills at the time contained almost no necessary buffs, the most important reason was that Sorc's pets wasted too many skill slots, making it difficult for Sorc to obtain necessary buffs through other general skills without sacrificing DPS. This is why many Sorc players at the time could only choose an Oakensoul + heavy attack build.

Moreover, even with subclasses, creating a viable pet build in endgame is difficult; at least ESO-LOG data has shown that pet builds have completely failed in endgame PvE.

Admit it, Sorc now faces a cruel choice: either completely abandon pets and move towards more modern skills, or give pets the most extreme buffs to compensate for all the system's shortcomings.

While I've tried to consider whether there are compromises, I'm also very clear that unless the entire pet system is reworked and the AI is rewritten, Sorc's pet is doomed.

NxJoeyD · February 16

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Some may have forgotten, but before subclasses were introduced, the most commonly used Mythic Item in Sorc was Oakensoul. Besides the fact that Sorc's class skills at the time contained almost no necessary buffs, the most important reason was that Sorc's pets wasted too many skill slots, making it difficult for Sorc to obtain necessary buffs through other general skills without sacrificing DPS. This is why many Sorc players at the time could only choose an Oakensoul + heavy attack build.

Moreover, even with subclasses, creating a viable pet build in endgame is difficult; at least ESO-LOG data has shown that pet builds have completely failed in endgame PvE.

Admit it, Sorc now faces a cruel choice: either completely abandon pets and move towards more modern skills, or give pets the most extreme buffs to compensate for all the system's shortcomings.

While I've tried to consider whether there are compromises, I'm also very clear that unless the entire pet system is reworked and the AI is rewritten, Sorc's pet is doomed.

100%. I’ve said the same thing. Sorc pets would need a complete overhaul and that’s not what the Devs have said they’re doing.

A class refresh isn’t a game mechanic rebuld and I’ve observed the same things you have.

This is a great opportunity for Sorc mains to give suggestions on the layout of skills that we actually need to be competitive.

Yudo · February 16

Faltasë wrote: »

I'd like more lightning in my Sorcerer please.

More Magic type would be very welcome too if not lightning.

ZhuJiuyin · February 16

Just a few days ago, someone complained about the current discrimination against HA-Build in trial groups, but some may have forgotten that this discrimination originated from the discrimination against HA-Sorc.
To compensate for the disastrous impact of u35 on Sorc, ZOS made HA-OakensoulSorc excessively powerful, making it the top choice for PvE, and then severely nerfed it in the name of balance. HA-OakensoulSorc has never recovered from that nerf. In that nerf, HA-OakensoulSorc lost the AoE damage provided by Lightning Staves, and Empower was also nerfed by 10%. This made HA-OakensoulSorc, and most Sorc DPS builds, the most unpopular class in PvE again, because they couldn't deal enough damage, until subclasses were introduced, forcing Sorc to use them.
Don't forget what the developers said at the time: "Those who don't want to play pets should choose other skill lines," as if Sorc was born to submit to subclasses.
The pet system is the most severe shackle on Sorc, the most fundamental reason hindering Sorc's modernization. If you truly want to improve Sorc, abandoning (or completely reworking) the pet system is absolutely necessary.

Turtle_Bot · February 16

NxJoeyD wrote: »

This is a great opportunity for Sorc mains to give suggestions on the layout of skills that we actually need to be competitive.

This is something I plan to do a bit closer to Sorcs rework, similar to what ESO_Nightingale did for warden recently.

Outlining the many issues as best as I can and as in-depth as I can, taking what has been put forward in threads like these to try and consolidate them into a single in-depth thread the devs can utilize when they start to work on the Sorcerer rework.