Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Don't forget the one with the friendly vampires! It also has unfriendly vampires.

This is indeed valuable info for the Order of the Black Worm. What might we do with them...

If I know the Order of the Black Worm at all (and sometimes I doubt I do) it'll end up involving rituals and/or experiments.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Didn't Clockwork end with that apostle saying she might travel? Yet we haven't seen her anywhere else. I guess that could because Clockwork City isn't as easy to leave or get to as Solstice. One thing I never quite understood about Clockwork City is the notion that once you're there, you're there forever ("There's no way home!"). People do come and go (not talking about the player characters), and Neramo and the Vanos twins make it out again. Or do they? Have we seen them in game since Clockwork? Well, Divayth comes and goes, that much I do know for sure!

Nah, Luciana is severely injured (and, depending on your choice, can be saved or not), and Varuni does question why Sotha Sil doesn't allow people to leave, but that's exacly the situation there - they can't. Maybe it is a little inconsequential? I mean, Divayth is a close friend to Sil, so he might be an exception. But yes, the Vanos twins also get out again; we meet them again later in that one Dwemer ruin in Blackreach. Then again, we can speculate anyway which purpose that all serves - why aren't most people allowed to go? Are they altered in a way that they would not survive outside anymore if they stayed too long? Is it that they serve a clear purpose in CWC that Sil already foresees? Maybe the few quest people that arrived later are supposed to leave again because they don't belong to that design and would somehow bring things out of balance? It's never stated. But the whole thing is a cosmos on its own and I don't think Sil keeps them there without any reason. He's not the powerhungry type, he doesn't strive for admiration, he doesn't even see himself as a god. And the whole city serves a purpose, after all; even if we don't know the details around the Coldharbor Compact, we know Sil had something of importance in that negotation. Or maybe it's as simple as that: The city could be the last refuge if there's ever some catastrophe wiping out whole Nirn. But for that, it must be functioning, and it needs people - well-balanced for all necessary tasks, and most of all enough of them. If people could just leave at will, maybe that wouldn't work out. Now we can debate ethics, of course, whether this all is justified considering the circumstances. It's a more interesting theme leading to more interesting questions than the simple messages of later stories, at least.

Don't some people also end up there by accident? I think we found a journal of a mage on the landscape that started a quest, and they hadn't intended to go to Clockwork; if I recall correctly, they weren't entirely sure where they were.

I could see Sil recruiting various people, for various reasons; I understand the Apostles faithfully following him (at least initially--wasn't Varuni born in Clockwork?). But there do seem to be a lot of people who end up there without wanting to be there and really wanting to get back home. And enough people must show up without invitation, as it were, for them to have established a protocol as to how people are even allowed into the city itself. How much Sil is involved in that sort of bureaucracy isn't known; nor are we really aware how much interest he takes in the general welfare of the citizenry.

Slag Town denizens have it pretty hard, and I was never sure if they're in Slag Town because they're of little use to the workings of Clockwork, or because they have little desire to be part of Clockwork. (By Clockwork I mean the Apostles and such--the official followers of Sil). But since some of them are there generationally, it makes me wonder if at any time any one in their family tried to join in with the Apostles, or become more enmeshed within Clockwork proper. We did have that one story in Slag Town about the one npc who wanted to prove there was a way to change their fate/station, which makes it kind of seem like everyone else has just resigned themselves to being the cast-offs in Slag Town.

But yes, there's a lot that can be discussed about Clockwork City, even going past Sil's motives for having it in the first place. I should take another character through there; it's been awhile.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The Great Mage wouldn't have called for our help and we would have missed another opportunity to analyze him.

But in the end, we still couldn't invite him to have some tea with us.

Maybe that'll be a zone event in an upcoming season. Tea with the Great Mage!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's hard to say. I usually wait until I see mention of a fix in the patch notes, and try after that, but I don't know if all bug fixes make it into the patch notes. I'd give it three months. Maybe two. I guess it would depend on what else I have going on in game.

I can still replay Morrowind, CWC and Summerset. That will take a while. Though right now, I tried to complete some multi-part antiquities and there's also still a few houses I could furnish. Did I mention I really dislike that Kelesan'ruhn has two entrances to the building? There's only one single room that's easy to safely close off. Maybe I need to put in some extra walls...

You did not mention that before, at least not to me. Sounds like you need to get some construction crews in, close out that security risk of a second entrance.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I didn't think of it at the time (I'm usually not that interested in wearing the disguises we use in quests any longer than necessary for the quest) but that is strange that those costumes didn't make it into the collection. It does seem like an oversight, one that hopefully will be fixed.

I collect all of them. Actually I still have them all since there are a few differences in function between them and the costumes. The costumes don't override some other cosmetic settings while the disguises do.

The fact that the costumes put our characters back to base appearances sometimes takes me by surprise. My main guy started off clean-shaven, but over the years he's grown a stylish--not beard, exactly, but noticeable facial hair (that doesn't look like he just forgot to shave)--and anytime he gets in a costume that shows his face, there's that smooth clean-shaven look again! Same thing happens with his hairstyle. (I've never officially altered him with a character change token--just change up his hair and such with cosmetics).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I remember seeing that comment, too, and it does seem to be true. I do hope they expand/enrich the player response options, so there are more kinds of friendly (or mean, or flirtatious) that fit more personalities. Sometimes the options we're given do fit my characters, and it's fun to have that available, so overall I'm glad the system exists.

I think it would already be better if they were worded a bit... less extreme. It's possible to convey the emotion without making it absolutely in-your-face, after all.

It is, and I hope ZOS keeps that in mind going forward.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Often times on a second playthrough of a quest series, I'll notice things I might not have picked up on the first time. Well, this time in the eastern Solstice main quest, when we get to Jeetra's village and the place has been soul-flayer-reaped, I wondered: even if the cultists successfully disguised themselves as simple traders, and the villagers stupidly thought the soul flayer was a product to buy, why didn't Jeetra's sister recognize the soul flayer? She was in the village; she used to be a cultist; she knew about the flayers. Is there a simple explanation for this that I'm missing? It's a small village; seems like a group of traders bringing in a big object would have attracted everyone's attention.

Well, that's another inplausibility. But honestly, the whole thing doesn't make any sense. I'm not even sure if details matter anymore. Worm Cultists showing up disguised as random traders (What were they selling? Furniture? Maybe it was no disguise after all), with a huge creepy-looking thing, after the whole Worm Cult problem has already become common knowledge, the Wall had been there, cultists had been causing destruction, Coldharborized the whole landscape, abducted people... and no one shows any caution at all? It already seems almost comedic.

Or wait, now it get it: It's all a big furniture selling scheme! They travel around, sell furniture to people, then kill everyone with their soul flayer, box their furniture again and travel to the next village...

Lol...mystery solved!

Well, I'm off for a few days. Got a big family thing centered around my dad's 80th birthday. Have fun making Kelesan'ruhn into your new dungeon/lair/secret lab!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If I know the Order of the Black Worm at all (and sometimes I doubt I do) it'll end up involving rituals and/or experiments.

Involving lots of wine. And incense. And expensive furniture.

It's the elegancies of life that make it worthwhile, after all.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

How much Sil is involved in that sort of bureaucracy isn't known; nor are we really aware how much interest he takes in the general welfare of the citizenry.

Generally it looked to me like his apostles were taking care of most mundane things - but would he know what's going on everywhere in his realm, at least? I'm not entirely sure about that. We know there are some things going wrong where he doesn't interfere - but whether he's not aware of it, or whether it's his choice?!

That's one of the things I find so interesting about Clockwork City. Sil made it for certain reasons, but we don't know any details about why, or what's he's doing, or how involved he intends to be. Obviously during the course of the story of the zone, we find out he's been sidelined, but since plenty of the denizens of Clockwork don't realize it's not actually him, it makes me wonder how well they do know him. If we hadn't intervened, at what point (if any) would someone have realized he was acting oddly, or as a shadow of himself? (I do like that the story plays with the phrase 'he's become a shadow of his former self' by making it literal).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Slag Town denizens have it pretty hard, and I was never sure if they're in Slag Town because they're of little use to the workings of Clockwork, or because they have little desire to be part of Clockwork. (By Clockwork I mean the Apostles and such--the official followers of Sil). But since some of them are there generationally, it makes me wonder if at any time any one in their family tried to join in with the Apostles, or become more enmeshed within Clockwork proper. We did have that one story in Slag Town about the one npc who wanted to prove there was a way to change their fate/station, which makes it kind of seem like everyone else has just resigned themselves to being the cast-offs in Slag Town.
But yes, there's a lot that can be discussed about Clockwork City, even going past Sil's motives for having it in the first place. I should take another character through there; it's been awhile.

CWC is no paradise, that's for sure. But that's also not what it's supposed to be. There are dangers, even dangerous animals in the Radius, there's poverty. Maybe it's needed. It's supposed to be a replica of the real Tamriel, after all - and as such it does copy things like different social classes, and dangers of all kind. Maybe there are metaphysical reasons why it has to be like this and not an idealized world. I also wouldn't say Sil was exactly mercyful with his people - he just does what he thinks is necessary. And I think this is much more interesting to discuss than if we had some ideal paradise simulation there.

I never thought it was meant to be a paradise, but it is a controlled and regulated environment (and one can debate how much of each of those apply). Mostly I'm curious how much agency any denizen has. If the entire place is an experiment, we can think that Sil set it up with certain parameters that he intends to observe. Take poverty as an example. Perhaps he wants to study the reasons for poverty, or how people cope with it, or whether people can overcome it. If that's true, he might have set up Clockwork to have a certain population living in poverty. Or he might not even be that involved. He might study it just as (or if) it comes up--letting everyone have full control of their lives and taking notes/making observations on how they handle it, but not taking any direct action.

Then there is the whole story about the nutriment paste, and the chef trying to come up with an appetizing alternative. To me that comes across as Sil knows people need nutrition, so he provides the very basic definition of it--the paste will keep you alive, but it won't have any of the different textures or flavors that people like to get from their foods. That makes it seem like Sil doesn't quite understand people--why do they need different cuisines when a standard paste will do the job more efficiently? Or maybe, given the restrictions of Clockwork, the paste was the best he could come up with, and it is the most logical and efficient means of giving the people sustenance.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe that'll be a zone event in an upcoming season. Tea with the Great Mage!

Maybe we even find out where he lives one day.

Yes! And then, once we know that, we can drop by anytime we want!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You did not mention that before, at least not to me. Sounds like you need to get some construction crews in, close out that security risk of a second entrance.

I suffer from typical Telvanni paranoia. First thing I do when entering a new house is searching for the room that's safest and easiest to defend in case of emergency. That becomes the bedroom then. And then it's about putting up defenses. I also tend to place beds for servants near the door(s) so there's immediate alarm in case someone enters who should not. In Kelesan'ruhn it really bothers me that there's only one room that can only be accessed from one side, and except for that you only have too huge halls above each other which have a door to the front and the teleporter on the backside. How is one supposed to keep both entrances in sight?! I'm not surprised that house got offered for sale - most probably the former owner had been murdered!

Perhaps whoever designed it was eccentric, or without fear. I agree it has architectural oddities, but as an Altmer who prefers clean lines and plenty of light, my reservations about the place are somewhat different.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The fact that the costumes put our characters back to base appearances sometimes takes me by surprise. My main guy started off clean-shaven, but over the years he's grown a stylish--not beard, exactly, but noticeable facial hair (that doesn't look like he just forgot to shave)--and anytime he gets in a costume that shows his face, there's that smooth clean-shaven look again! Same thing happens with his hairstyle. (I've never officially altered him with a character change token--just change up his hair and such with cosmetics).

Disguises also hide vampirism (or at least they did once; I haven't checked for some time as my two vampire characters are wearing something different right now). That was quite useful - well, depending on which look one prefers (in my case it also depends on the character and on the vampirism stage since those all alter the appearance differently).

I did not know that; I'm not interested in the curses of this game, so I don't play as vampire or werewolf.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, I'm off for a few days. Got a big family thing centered around my dad's 80th birthday. Have fun making Kelesan'ruhn into your new dungeon/lair/secret lab!

Thanks! I think I'll also store a certain necromancer there somewhere.

That's probably the best place for him. I doubt the Worm Cult would get very far infiltrating Telvanni lands in search of the sarcophagus. Unless, I guess, you want them to.

Syldras wrote: »

I was a bit busy the past few days (didn't even read forum posts - have I missed anything of interest?).

Dunno. Been ill myself, so not paying a lot of attention to the forums. I see there's a lot of PTS talk, so if you like that, there's plenty to read. There was one thread about the Colovian beds that come with the Wildgrown Chapel house, and some interesting discussion about the real-world historical inspiration for the design.

Syldras wrote: »

Still, I managed to play a bit on my NA account this evening and soloed Fungal Grotto 1 in random level 5 and 6 gear (no sets), and without any ult, on a level 10 character. It just took a little longer. Which made me wonder whether harder overland difficulty will really make things feel more interesting - or, well, just makes fights last a little bit longer, and that's it. I mean, at least one will probably be able to listen to a bit more dialogue and experience more mechanics then (Right now some delve bosses die before they even finished talking...), but I do wonder whether it will make a difference big enough to feel meaningful?

I guess it depends on what a player looks for in overland combat. Right now a lot of people seem worried about the different difficulties all being on the same server/shard/instance (whatever term applies). Seems to be some sort of worry about low difficulty people running up and one-shotting mobs that high difficulty people are working on killing. *shrug* All I know is that in LotRO, the landscape difficulty settings don't cause those kinds of issues. I figure I'll try a higher difficulty, see if I like it. I use it in LotRO on some of my characters.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's the elegancies of life that make it worthwhile, after all.

Let me put it like this: The Order of the Black Worm is very clearly an Altmer-led cult.

You say that, but Mannimarco's castle in Coldharbour was ugly and uncomfortable. Where was all his style and elegance influence then?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's one of the things I find so interesting about Clockwork City. Sil made it for certain reasons, but we don't know any details about why, or what's he's doing, or how involved he intends to be. Obviously during the course of the story of the zone, we find out he's been sidelined, but since plenty of the denizens of Clockwork don't realize it's not actually him, it makes me wonder how well they do know him. If we hadn't intervened, at what point (if any) would someone have realized he was acting oddly, or as a shadow of himself? (I do like that the story plays with the phrase 'he's become a shadow of his former self' by making it literal).

The impression I personally have is that he controls the whole environment, as in regulating the atmosphere, climate, and what ever it needs to be a habitable place, but except for that, he seems to mostly observe - if at all.

The scientist in him--watching and recording, but not interfering. That makes me wonder what situation would spur him to intervene.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I never thought it was meant to be a paradise, but it is a controlled and regulated environment (and one can debate how much of each of those apply). Mostly I'm curious how much agency any denizen has. If the entire place is an experiment, we can think that Sil set it up with certain parameters that he intends to observe. Take poverty as an example. Perhaps he wants to study the reasons for poverty, or how people cope with it, or whether people can overcome it. If that's true, he might have set up Clockwork to have a certain population living in poverty. Or he might not even be that involved. He might study it just as (or if) it comes up--letting everyone have full control of their lives and taking notes/making observations on how they handle it, but not taking any direct action.

I think people have full agency, apart from not being allowed to trespass into some regions and the usual social rules that apply to all other regions of Tamriel (like no stealing). Or maybe they can even trespass - if they manage to. Would be interesting to observe, and of course provide info about what to improve (in the end, everything is also an anti-Almalexia security measure, after all).

But I'm not even really sure whether the whole thing is an experiment. It's just as possible that it's really meant as some kind of lasting eternal sanctuary for the people in case the daedra really destroy Nirn at some point (maybe motivated by what happened to his family and Ald Sotha). Also some weird striving for perfection. Tamriel Final. A Second Nirn. It also comes up in the Apostle's writings - though of course those could also just be interpretations made by them, while Seht might have had completely different things in mind. Generally it seems the city is ruled by the Apostles, and I'm not completely sure whether Sil even knows about everything that's going on there, or whether he might be too concerned with other things (Who knows how much efforts regulating the artificial atmosphere even takes?).

It's definitely an interesting proposition: a living god makes a miniature world and fills it with constructs that imitate Nirn life (for the most part--those verminous fabricants are another mystery) but then also brings in real people. From that all these other questions come up. This is why I love Clockwork so much. It's such a fascinating place.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Then there is the whole story about the nutriment paste, and the chef trying to come up with an appetizing alternative. To me that comes across as Sil knows people need nutrition, so he provides the very basic definition of it--the paste will keep you alive, but it won't have any of the different textures or flavors that people like to get from their foods. That makes it seem like Sil doesn't quite understand people--why do they need different cuisines when a standard paste will do the job more efficiently? Or maybe, given the restrictions of Clockwork, the paste was the best he could come up with, and it is the most logical and efficient means of giving the people sustenance.

It's possible it's the only thing they can really produce there - it is a barren artificial environment, after all. Of course there are those experimental gardens, but we learn it comes at a horrible price.

Generally, there are some horrid things happening in CWC, and again it leads to the question: How much does Sil know about this? It's a completely ambiguous and uncertain situation, we don't know whether Sil is unaware, or doesn't care, or chooses to ignore it for scientific reasons, or even condones it or is even involved in it. Or, to use those very simplified terms of "good" and "evil" - we can't really place him on that scale for sure (of course we can theorize based on background lore, and estimate probabilities, but in the end we can never be 100% sure). And that makes the situation so much more interesting than those simple good/bad schemes and moral lessons we got in later chapters. And again, we're at the topic that started this thread.

Not much to say except I agree.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes! And then, once we know that, we can drop by anytime we want!

Unless he disappears just like Isobel's parents. But then it's probably high time to investigate! I'd suspect them to have been kidnapped by sloads and brought to Thras. Geographically, it would even make sense

You'll use any excuse to talk about Sloads, won't you? I think you should maybe travel to Thras, do some exploring. A nice little vacation. What could go wrong?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Perhaps whoever designed it was eccentric, or without fear. I agree it has architectural oddities, but as an Altmer who prefers clean lines and plenty of light, my reservations about the place are somewhat different.

I now vacated my bedroom for this...

Or no, wrong picture It's this one:

...and built a new bedroom directly above that one so all that nice necrotic energy radiates through the floor. I also solved the teleporter problem in a very Telvanni way.

So your bedroom is now kind of like a revivfying chamber? You go to sleep, replenish with necrotic energy, wake up ready to go! I'm missing the teleporter problem solution, though--is it in the picture? If so, I can't tell what it is. Also, did you steal that funerary cart from Necrom? Whose ancestors are those?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's probably the best place for him. I doubt the Worm Cult would get very far infiltrating Telvanni lands in search of the sarcophagus. Unless, I guess, you want them to.

I won't need other cultists to resurrect him. I've already made preparations.

While shoving furniture around I noticed another thing:



Why does the scribing altar include Apocrypha items?

Good question; maybe because Mora has to shove his tentacles into anything to do with knowledge.

Syldras wrote: »

And another thing about the Aldwilne Citadel quest:

Wasn't Naemon brought back as a lich at some point of the base game story? Yes, we killed him another time and in Coldharbor he didn't look like a lich anymore, but what is he now? Is a lich that was killed but returned from Coldharbor still a lich or a normal mortal again? The way he looks now isn't a clear indicator as liches only decay after time and may still look entirely normal for decades. Let alone we were told last year that necromancers can completely restore corpses no matter how decayed they were, and the same would probably also work for a lich. And on top of that, illusion magic exists. Which also again leads to the question whether Wormblood was a lich or not. Well, we don't even know what Mannimarco truly is.

I actually was wondering that when

metheglyn wrote: »

Dunno. Been ill myself, so not paying a lot of attention to the forums. I see there's a lot of PTS talk, so if you like that, there's plenty to read. There was one thread about the Colovian beds that come with the Wildgrown Chapel house, and some interesting discussion about the real-world historical inspiration for the design.

I hope you're doing well again!

Sounds like there was at least something interesting going on on the forums! Still didn't manage to browse the last few pages; lots to do here right now, especially before the weather gets even worse.

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess it depends on what a player looks for in overland combat. Right now a lot of people seem worried about the different difficulties all being on the same server/shard/instance (whatever term applies). Seems to be some sort of worry about low difficulty people running up and one-shotting mobs that high difficulty people are working on killing. *shrug*

Did people really expect an extra instance for each difficulty? While there are often complaints about the server being too empty, and not enough people being around for world bosses and incursions? And those usual requests for crossplay (apart from wanting to be able to play with friends, I've often seen the reasoning that it would be vital to solve the empty server problem)? Sounds a little contradictive.

Then again, it really might be a disadvantage when it comes to those annoying event quests where dozens of players fight over a mob and only a few players who did the most damage get the drop. Of course for such situations, one could just change the difficulty in the UI, I know, but I'd rather spend my time playing the game instead of changing settings back and forth all the time.

metheglyn wrote: »

All I know is that in LotRO, the landscape difficulty settings don't cause those kinds of issues. I figure I'll try a higher difficulty, see if I like it. I use it in LotRO on some of my characters.

I'll surely do some testing. Though I already do know that I won't be willing to fight a wolf for several minutes over some moldy log or cornflower. Extra gold is fine, of course, but the question is whether the amount will be worth the extra time (xp doesn't matter that much anymore for me, I'm above 2100 cp anyway).

metheglyn wrote: »

You say that, but Mannimarco's castle in Coldharbour was ugly and uncomfortable. Where was all his style and elegance influence then?

We never saw any actual rooms there, let alone living quarters. Who knows how those looked like! I expect expensive furniture, and lots of incense and wine, of course.

metheglyn wrote: »

The scientist in him--watching and recording, but not interfering. That makes me wonder what situation would spur him to intervene.

Almalexia.

Also, if we believe the story in TES Legends, we learnt that he was busy building a second Heart of Lorkhan. Which also fits the background lore in ESO that he uses Sunna'rah to study his "own" divine energy, which is nothing but energy drawn from the original Heart of Lorkhan.

metheglyn wrote: »

It's definitely an interesting proposition: a living god makes a miniature world and fills it with constructs that imitate Nirn life (for the most part--those verminous fabricants are another mystery) but then also brings in real people. From that all these other questions come up. This is why I love Clockwork so much. It's such a fascinating place.

I think there was some Loremaster's Archive once that stated that the verminous fabricants were based on some now extinct creature that once inhabited Morrowind.

metheglyn wrote: »

You'll use any excuse to talk about Sloads, won't you? I think you should maybe travel to Thras, do some exploring. A nice little vacation. What could go wrong?

Indeed I could take a vacation in Thras. Anything I should get for you? Sload soap perhaps? And if I find Isobel's parents, I'll bring them too, of course!

metheglyn wrote: »

So your bedroom is now kind of like a revivfying chamber? You go to sleep, replenish with necrotic energy, wake up ready to go!

Yes, it's wonderful! Never slept that well before.

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm missing the teleporter problem solution, though--is it in the picture? If so, I can't tell what it is.

Nah, the teleporter is upstairs. I made it a trap. If you use it from the other level, you basically end up in a cage (those Worm Cult cages fit perfectly). I even thought about blocking off access to the spot you need to "activate" to teleport back out, so the only way you could leave again would be through fast travel; but maybe that's a bit too mean (although I don't intend to put it up on housing tours anyway)

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, did you steal that funerary cart from Necrom?

Nah, it was legitimately bought.

metheglyn wrote: »

Whose ancestors are those?

I don't know. They didn't talk to me yet. I even suspect they might be fake - probably made of decorative wax!

metheglyn wrote: »

Good question; maybe because Mora has to shove his tentacles into anything to do with knowledge.

But what would Vanny say?!

Also, it's a bit sad that the Mages Guild needs to rely on Apocryphean equipment - for everything, really - because for some reason they don't have their own stuff. For scribing. And book binding and copying, which they state is one of the main purposes of the guild.

I also couldn't really figure out yet what those sticks are for. Surely they're not meant to be smashed on random people's heads if they disturb you while writing?

metheglyn wrote: »

I actually was wondering that when I came across Naemon all whole and unblemished. In Grahtwood the Orrery turned him into some kind of abomination that we then killed--did his body revert to his normal form after we dispatched him? (I can't recall.) Then in...was it Greenshade or Malabal Tor...Pelidil brought him back as a lich using the Staff of Magnus. We got rid of him then, too, but I don't think there was a physical body left behind. So honestly I don't know--this is some next-level resurrection magic the Worm Cult has available if they can bring Naemon back in original form and no worse for wear. All these Altmer and their confusing states.

It is very peculiar.

Radiate77 wrote: »

I love that you guys are still going with this thread. 😂
I will say, I have entirely lost the plot though.

We'll continue until... well, I'm not sure about that either, but we'll continue!

metheglyn wrote: »

Since I'm rarely in the top damage dealers on those kinds of things, I'm used to not getting drops from world bosses and such. Generally, I'm fine with that, as long as I get my quest completion. I really don't understand that limitation, though. I mean, it's not like the mob can run out of loot. All mobs, and particularly bosses, have infinite coffers.

Well, we saw to which problems it led during the Wall event. I also don't really get why there's this restriction. Was it meant as a preventive measure so people don't just camp at world bosses afk and fire just one shot every 5 minutes to get loot? Botting even, perhaps? Still, they could be a little more generous, especially during events. I mean: Since scaling does happen in game (at dolmens, for example), we know the number of people involved in a fight is recognized by the game. So it should also be possible to increase the number of loot drops if a high participation in a fight was registered.

And while we're at strange game mechanisms: I also don't see the benefit of that stupid countdown when failing to break/pick a chest lock that only enables other players to "steal" the chest right in front of you. It doesn't even make sense from an immersion/roleplaying perspective. How would that be realistically possible that someone just picks a lock, sitting right in front of a chest, their lockpick breaks, and then suddenly someone else shoves the person away to try it themselves?! I don't even think the countdown is realistic, though I do understand they might have decided for that to avoid people just starting lockpicking a chest and then going afk for a long time, perhaps as trolling - though I don't think this would happen too often either (How realistic is it that suddenly dozens of people would randomly start blocking all chests? Also, they could just have them auto-despawn and respawn after 5 minutes of inactivity or so).

metheglyn wrote: »

The rewards certainly aren't an incentive for me, but I like that there aren't super duper rewards tied to it.

Who knows what they'll come up with. I think there was one article some days ago that stated they'd start with extra xp and gold for now - but might come up with other things. Which I also see rather critical - depending on what it is, it could become another thing akin to an annoying chore list ("Fight enemy type x in medium difficulty for super-rare lead drop y!", "Battle pass task: Kill 100 dragons in hard difficulty!") which is something I'd rather see less of. Also, it wouldn't feel like a completely free and equal choice anymore then. Which they had promised when they first talked about working on such a system.

metheglyn wrote: »

I doubt it. That was before the Worm Cult took up furniture crafting, after all.

Nah.





Funniest thing is that Mannimarco left Artaeum about 2E 230. He must have started designing furniture rather early!

metheglyn wrote: »

Right, right. I should have said, what situation other than Almalexia would get his attention and intervention. I'd really be curious how far his observational stance would go. Where does he draw the lines? He's willing to let a section of people continue in poverty. Would he stop someone on a murder spree? He didn't interfere in the matter of harvesting life essence for sunlight effects, and that seems to be have been going on before he got shadowed. What if a group of apostles started a sort of revolution? Would he stick his hand in then?

I think he'd intervene if there's anything that endangers his city as a whole. Anything that would end his experiment or vision or plan for a daedra-safe second Nirn (if we believe that that's the city's purpose, which I do think is possible - and it's a little unsettling considering we know that he has the ability to see the future, at least to some extent, so if he sees the urgent necessity for a second Nirn, he must have good reasons for that). But anything less than that? Who knows.

At the end of CWC, when Luciana gets severely injured, Sil only saves her life if the player character asks him for it (though I think she survives regardless of the player's decision). Which looked to me like he normally chooses not to interfere in things that happen "naturally" in his realm.

I think there was also some dialogue bit about him "doing what has to be done", even if some decisions might look harsh. Since we know he sees the future, probably he also knows the necessary cause of events, and needs to act accordingly. No matter if he might like it or not. I do think he's generally benevolent, though - if we look at the whole picture. Assuming CWC's purpose truly is to be a sanctuary to save mortal life from being eradicated by some huge daedric catastrophe destroying Nirn as a whole - it is an act of benevolence.

Generally, there's some caring aspect to him (especially compared to Almalexia and Vivec whose main purpose of divinity feels rather different). The Temple also labels him the "father" of their divine triad (if we look at Earth mythology, lots of deities come in groups of three, by the way), and by the traditional idea many cultures have or had of a father figure, that includes not only care, but also aspects like teaching, and even punishment if necessary. It might even be hard for him, but he considers all this his purpose there. Things that just need to be done, for the wellbeing of his city as a whole.

He generally seems so focused on his purpose as the deity of CWC, as the function he needs to provide for that world and its people, while putting his own feelings last. Which also adds to his tragic character. Considering his past, despite acting rather stoic most of the time, he must be deeply hurt. And he has problems to let go; or had - until he relocated all his memories and feelings into those memory stars in the Mnemonic Planisphere; though I'm not entirely sure whether that's the truth, either. Some Apostle tells us that, sure. But maybe he saved them there not ever to be forgotten during his long life, to return to that place and listen to them once in a while? If you know you'll live over a thousand years you might become afraid you could forget these things - your childhood memories, the sound of your mother's voice, etc.

We know he has sentimental tendencies. He has his memorial garden - outside in the Radius where rarely any normal citizen would ever come by. Some antiquities also have interesting texts, in particular the Elegiac Vessel. And most of all we know he tried to inject his sister's spirit, and probably consciousness, into his city, or the central computer or what ever to call it, the thing all factotums get their program from. He failed in preserving her consciousness, but he saved her memories. There's also that theory that all factotums are female and have the same voice because that's his sister's voice. In the Halls of Fabrication trial we see the results of his later experiments, where at least a fraction of consciousness of living people is preserved in machines, but it also was still rather faulty. Makes me wonder whether he might have succeeded much later, when Almalexia killed him. That would be spectacular: To return to CWC in some TES game set in the future and come across him again, disembodied, but a conscious spirit inside the central computer, still watching over his city (TES Legends doesn't mention anything like that, but what we see there are just narrated stories, and sometimes conflicting accounts, so who knows). Maybe even having his memories merged with those of his sister. Or even some conciousness of her actually being present, originally too faint to make its presence noticeable, that he could now communicate with. Much could be made of that!

Now I'm a bit sad, if I compare that awesome lore and world building we got back then to the later chapters with their simple morals and clichéd characterizations!

metheglyn wrote: »

Well...so...how do you build something like that? Using the Heart of Lorkhan to build a Heart of Lorkhan. Seems like there would be diminishing returns in power levels. I mean, if anyone could do it, Sil could, but still.

We don't know for sure. What we know is that the Tribunal had to return to the Heart of Lorkhan regularly to renew their divine powers. The reawakening of Dagoth Ur... caused a problem. So Sil began to work on a second Heart of Lorkhan, somehow. Including copies of Kagrenac's Tools. In the end he used it to power his city beyond his death (before that he indeed needed to use his own divine power - and basically his own life force, since that was what kept him alive for such a long time - to keep all machines running).

metheglyn wrote: »

Nice of you to offer, but no, I don't need anything from Thras. Make sure you don't pick up another plague there and bring it back. Wouldn't put it past the Sloads to disguise the plague as soap.

Okay, no plague... Can I bring a sload, perhaps?

metheglyn wrote: »

Now that is an ingenious solution! Let me know if you catch any trespassers that way! You know, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that there is an entire category of houses in the tour system that are designed to be traps/dungeons/etc. Yours would fit right in!

It's actually not the first trap I've built.

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, if that's the case, break them apart into chunks--decorative wax is a premium housing ingredient!

And it's found in funerary urns.

metheglyn wrote: »

The Mages Guild: the premium scavengers of Tamriel. Maybe the Great Mage has hoarder instincts, and he established the guild so he could: a.) get people to scavenge stuff for him and b.) have a place to put it all.

For that, most guild halls look rather empty.

metheglyn wrote: »

I would guess they are for stiffening the spines of books.

They look much too big for that.

metheglyn wrote: »

We need to find someone to follow him around and see how he travels. Cariel's not busy, is she? She could do it!

Not sure if she's still willing to talk to me.

metheglyn wrote: »

As near as I can tell, the plot goes like this: Syldras has ambitions to restore/revive the Worm Cult and set it up as a purveyor of luxury furnishings in direct competition to Zanil Theran. He also may or may not have plans to resurrect Mannimarco at some point.

Of course I'll resurrect him! But after Heart's Week. I already told you I'm going to take him to the festival as a thrall to scare people show everyone what awesome friends we are! We'll visit the Mara priest and perhaps have some cake (well, I'll have cake, at least). Of course I'm going to get him a nice new robe without bloodstains and also polish his tiara before we go! Perhaps adorn him with flowers, too. Nightshade...? No, that's too much. Cherry flowers maybe. I don't think he'd mind. It's just puppetry, after all, right?

Maybe I could even start some kind of "Tamriel's prettiest thrall" competition. Like those dog or cat shows, just for necromancers.

Last night I got around to finishing my Eastern Solstice main quest play through on my second character--the one who didn't do any side quests and as far as other stories, has only done base game main quest, AD storyline, and Coldharbour. I think the quest actually flows a little better when you haven't done the side quests, simply because there's less repitition of information. Granted, that's not ideal, because narratively it doesn't make sense to not do the side quests alongside the main quest. Anyway, I found myself less annoyed by the npcs when they weren't telling my character things he already knew.

And, as usual, I picked up on a couple of narrative details I missed my first time through. I realized that Mannimarco's plan for the light of Meridia was to turn it into a gift of death to enable his transition from Wormblood's body to his old corpse, so when he said we delivered him light of Meridia right when he needed it most, that's what he meant. It seems, however, he wasn't actually able to corrupt it, but kept it sitting around in that cage device because, hey, never know if he could eventually make use of it. Also, I didn't remember seeing this last time I did the quest, but right after Vanus frees the light from the cage in Mor Naril, a Mannimarco projection shows up and says, "That's mine, Vanus!" It was his usual oversize projection, but this time throwing a bit of a toddler tantrum--I found that quite interesting from a character perspective. His place is being invaded, he's on a timeline to get the Wraithforge to restore him, but he still notices when we take something, and then pops in to scold us.

I also made sure to talk to Vanus at every step of the quest, and got this line that I missed before. "Mannimarco has been a thorn in my side almost from the first moment we met." Was that the line you meant when you said Vanus said he never liked Mannimarco? To me, it comes across somewhat differently. He's classing Mannimarco as a constant irritation 'almost from the first moment we met.' That 'almost' does a lot of heavy lifting, because it shows Vanus is admitting they weren't always antagonists, but he's not going to say how long they were friends; also, it speaks to a bit of reordering the history of their relationship, which could be because of feelings of betrayal, or resentment, or bitterness (or something else). A kind of defensive, "I never liked him anyway!" once Mannimarco became the evil force we see in ESO.

Anyway, I figure today I'll see if my character is sufficiently acquainted with Darien to talk him down from his Meridia madness, but before he can even do that, he's got to open up that temple door.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

While your description of someone shoving someone aside to have their chance at picking the lock did make me laugh (it's quite an image!) nothing else about this mechanic is in the least amusing to me. I've lost a couple of master chests to such looming people, and all it does is make me want to log out of the game and go do something else. As far as the lockpicking countdown timer goes, it seems like it's there to give some kind of analog to how difficult it is to pick a lock (shorter timer for harder locks) and leverage some small manner of skill into the lockpicking mini-game. Other MMOs I've played didn't have this kind of thing. There was either a class who could pick locks and their skill advanced as they leveled, and/or people with the blacksmithing ability could craft keys of varying levels to open locks out in the world. I guess at least this way anyone with a lockpick can open a lock instead of being class or craft dependent.

No matter from which perspective to look at it, a time limit just doesn't make any sense. Logically, where would it even come from? A more difficult lock would usually mean more complex mechanisms and taking more time to pick it, not that you need to pick it faster. I've picked a few locks in real life (my own or family's, of course - things like boxes that were in the basement for a long time, or lockable drawers in old furniture, where the keys got lost through the decades), and there's just no need to hurry. I know a game doesn't need to be like real life, but it just feels so arbitrary?! If the idea in ESO was that it's somehow about getting caught, that makes no sense either in the wilderness when there's no one around, and with lockboxes in stores, there's already the risk of being detected by some npc anyway.

I think it's just one of those game systems that we have to put up with rather than something that makes sense for the world or has much logic behind it. On my main with max legerdemain, I tend to just force open locks anyway.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's why I don't want rewards other than gold and xp tied to it. The main complaint I've seen on the forums regarding overland difficulty is that when it's so easy, it's boring and not worth people's time. To me that says they're looking for more interesting fights--a reason to use all their cool abilities and maneuvers. Longer fights might do that. Most mobs do have abilities they can use, and if they don't die in a couple hits they might have time to fire them off. And if more interesting fights are what people are after, then more rewards aren't necessary on top of that. I think in the article they mentioned something about perhaps having golden pursuit tasks tied to the harder difficulties--like one of the tasks could be 'kill five dragons in vestige mode' and that individual pursuit might have a special reward tied to it (like how they sometimes do with pursuits) but that it wouldn't be necessary to complete the overall pursuit and fill out the overarching reward bar. That wouldn't bother me.

Still, tying specific rewards to it (whether I care for them personally or not - chances are high that I don't because I don't care for most cosmetics) contradicts what was said when the topic of implementing this system came up. They said back then that it would be a completely free, personal choice which difficulty to choose and that there was nothing pushing people into taking the more difficult ones. I'm sure it will lead to complaints as soon as it's more than just gold and xp.

Well, since people are already complaining because there aren't rewards, there's not going to be a situation without complaints. I have no problem ignoring content that I don't care for, and that includes cosmetics as well as difficulty modes. So even if they put an awesome cosmetic behind some task in Vestige mode, if I don't like Vestige mode, I'm not going to bother with it. Just like I don't bother with hardcore dungeons or trifectas, no matter what you get from them. Ideally, the increased difficulty options wouldn't have anything more than gold and xp tied to them. Ideally.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't think I've come across those yet. Honestly, I'm just so tired of antiquity rng. I don't like having so much interesting lore locked behind luck.

It's annoying, yes. Though I've been astonished how many purple leads (and even a gold one) I got on my NA character within those few hours I've played on that server! It's strange, really. And annoying, as without having leveled his antiquity skills, he can't do anything with those, and they still have that short expiration time. So for new players the upcoming change is really a benefit.

I've seen people in these forums comment that a new character has a higher drop rate for leads. This leads to people creating throwaway characters so they can better farm some leads they're after. If that's indeed true, I think it's utterly ridiculous (the drop rate thing, not the workaround people are doing). Why should my main character, who has gone everywhere, done most everything, and leveled up the antiquity line, have a harder time getting leads to drop than some level 3 just stepping foot into Tamriel?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But, that complaint aside, I still doubt his Castle of the Worm in Coldharbour had any luxuries. He was clearly going for a bleak aesthetic.

We don't know how much influence he even had on that thing. Maybe Molag Bal gave him that castle and would have felt offended if he had criticized it. Well, actually we also don't know how much time he even spent there. Maybe he was on vacation somewhere on a remote tropical island most of the time anyway.

You're right, we don't know a lot about Mannimarco. We can only go by what we've seen in game. It's possible he had nothing to do with the decorating scheme of the Castle of the Worm. It's possible it wasn't even a reward for loyal service, but a place where Molag Bal could keep a better eye on him. The Traitor's Vault is a ruin by the time we go stomping around in it, so we don't really know what it looked like when Mannimarco was using it--but since it belonged to the Psijiics, I'm guessing Mannimarco didn't have a hand in its set-up/furnishing either. Then there's Mor Naril, which is also quite bleak. I know you like the architecture of it, but Mannimarco didn't build it, he just squatted in it for awhile. There's not a lot of nice things there, either. Gristmung Hold didn't even have luxuries--tents in the courtyard and piles of supplies cluttering up the place and everything else very lab-like and industrial as they strove to make a better reaping device. Everything I've seen in game about Mannimarco gives me the impression he doesn't have a mind tuned to luxury.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I didn't mean to imply I thought he was harsh or never benevolent. He's my absolute favorite of the Tribunal and I would love for the chance to make one of my characters an actual Clockwork Apostle.

Yes, that would have been wonderful! Another faction I'd like some of my characters to join. It's a pity we can't officially, just as we can't with the Great Houses. It's also a pity we didn't get a title at least that we could use for roleplay purposes. And while I like the Apostle armor/outfit style, I wish the prostheses were seperate so they could be combined with all kinds of different outfit styles.

That would be fun, to be able to add the artificial limbs to other outfits. Generally, I'm all for more customization options for our characters.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I may be misremembering, but I thought the Planisphere was a place to keep his memories, not let go of them. The idea I got was that he has so many thoughts/memories, he needed a way to sort and organize them, clearing up clutter, as it were, so he could better focus on whatever matter was uppermost in his mind. So he puts his memories there for safekeeping while freeing up his mind for current issues.

I thought there was be some kind of disconnect, basically removing those memories from his mind to function better, storing them externally to access them there when ever needed (or wished for).

I checked again and found this:
"Does Sotha Sil forget the memories he stores?
"Well, that would certainly complicate things.
Lord Seht still remembers, but in a distant way. He can analyze these memories rationally, without their emotional attachments clouding his divine judgment. At least that's what the Astronomer told me.""
Source: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Amili_Lloryn
Whether it's true or not we don't know, of course.

However he uses it, it's certainly an interesting way to go about it. One of the loading screens for the planisphere has a quote from Amalexia on it, saying something along the lines of, "Most people just keep a journal, but of course Seht had to create the planisphere." (That's not the actual quote, but the gist of it is that she's giving a sort of eye-roll reaction to the planisphere and it gives me the idea she thinks it's a bit much).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

(Every time I go to the Planisphere, I do my best to activate as many memory fragments as possible so I can experience them again; they're such a fascinating glimpse into Sil's life).

They're interesting, yes. There's a full list here, by the way:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Mnemonic_Planisphere#Stars
Most interesting is what's between the lines. Also the people who show up there in his memories and who don't. Though the reason is also unclear: Doesn't he want to store those memories externally? Maybe he rather keeps them the normal way? Or perhaps in some cases there are simply none? There's nothing on his father, for example. Nothing on Vivec either.

Another question is how reliable these memories even are, since they're Sil's memories, not captured reality.

That said, the story about the Astronomer is actually also quite cruel. It seems like everything there, in that artificial environment, needs sacrifices.

It does, and it shows the strain between purely logical thinking and the actual way people live.

As for which memories, I always assumed we just don't get to hear all the memories he's stored there. There are a lot of stars, and not all of them "speak" to us. There is one where he directly addresses Vivec, but none from Vivec to him. It is an interesting choice which ones are in game, to be sure, but I didn't think they were meant to be every memory he's stored there.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, and that those phrases they say when they're buffering (for lack of a better term) are from her memory--which is so heartbreaking. The memorial garden is another favorite place. The conversation we get to have with him there is one I look forward to every time I play through Clockwork. There's a point where he says something about envying us the ability to say, "I don't know." It really conveys the burden of knowledge he lives with and the weight of knowing the future.

For me, the ending conversation of CWC is ESO's best dialogue, until today. I'd wish we could get back to that level!

It would be nice for me to feel again that much investment in a character in the world. I do think personal preference plays a part, too (though I'm not denying the impact of the writing). For someone who doesn't like Sil (crazy, I know, but I've seen people say so on these forums!) that conversation probably isn't anything very meaningful. If I liked Darien more (and I think he's fine--I don't dislike him), I might have gotten more out of his role in the most recent story. I do think his part was fairly well written.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If you really want to. Just keep it away from me. Maybe keep it in one of your basement rooms/cells where you put all your unfortunate guests.

Sloads are supposed to be talented necromancers. Perhaps there's something to learn from them.

If there is, I'm sure you'll find it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's only because all the stuff is spread out over so many chapters. Put all together, it's a lot of stuff!

But it's mostly the same stuff somehow.

Well, that's what collectors (and hoarders) do--collect/hoard the same types of things.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They're sticks; you can cut them down to size.

I'm aware that sticks can be cut, but the size feels off nonetheless. They're too big to be used without cutting them, but to conveniently cut them they don't seem big enough either. I've checked the list of Apocrypha furnishings, by the way, curious what they're officially supposed to be, but they don't show up on that list yet (but they're clearly Apocryphean, they also lie around in the Archive, close to the Watcher merchants).

I guess just use them as tentacle deterrents and call it a day, then.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

No problem; I'll just get Raz to give her the order to do so. She'll never know we were involved at all.

I'm honestly curious how she'll react if she shows up again in some future quest.

I'm guessing she blames us for whatever he's doing.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I bet you'd get a lot of interested contestants. Necromancers do love showing off, after all. Speaking of, here's a question for you: when you use a body for a thrall, it's just necrotic energy/magic animating it, right? So it's not the soul of the person who was once in the body.

Ah, I see, you're interested in learning the Dark Arts!

Ha, more like wondering about the rules of magic in Tamriel. Is there consistency? Logic? Or is it just 'anything goes depending on individual power level'?

Syldras wrote: »

Nah, but seriously: It truly depends, there's practices where the soul is called back into the body and bound (or let's call it by a less friendly term: enslaved), forced to act like a puppet while the soul is present. But there's also a different method where just energy or life force (or similar) is directed into the corpse and it's animated by that. It also depends on the state of decay: At some point of decomposition, a soul can not be called back into the body anymore. So all skeletons, for example, do not include the former person's soul when used as a thrall. Fresher zombies might (and the same goes for people who just died recently, of course).

So when Mannimarco makes a thrall of Vanus, is it Vanus' soul in there or just some energy or life force reanimating the corpse? And what happens to all that great magic energy people are always trying to battery out of Vanus? When he dies, is the magical energy still there? And does making him a thrall give one access to that energy?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, if you put too much wear and tear on the corpse, won't that make the later resurrection a little...problematic?

What do you think I'm planning to do with him?! He's a precious specimen, so I handle him with the appropriate care.

Listen, you said you were going to parade him about a festival. Considering that living people can get pretty worn down at festivals (too much drinking, dancing, and other forms of merry making), who knows what might happen to a corpse that has no regenerative properties left to it?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I mean, having to explain to Mannimarco why his body is all worn out, and all.

I'll tell him he spent the past few months dancing

Make sure you make one of those memory stone records of his reaction when you tell him that. I'd like to see it!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, I didn't remember seeing this last time I did the quest, but right after Vanus frees the light from the cage in Mor Naril, a Mannimarco projection shows up and says, "That's mine, Vanus!" It was his usual oversize projection, but this time throwing a bit of a toddler tantrum--I found that quite interesting from a character perspective. His place is being invaded, he's on a timeline to get the Wraithforge to restore him, but he still notices when we take something, and then pops in to scold us.

Well, the question is: Was that scene done with Mannimarco's characterisation in mind or just for the fancy visuals?

We can't know the answer to that, of course. I kind of read it as going along with his arrogance--he doesn't think he's going to fail (or, more accurately, that we're going to be able to stop him) so why not let us know he noticed we took his stuff? He probably figures he'll be around to get it back and punish us appropriately.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also made sure to talk to Vanus at every step of the quest, and got this line that I missed before. "Mannimarco has been a thorn in my side almost from the first moment we met." Was that the line you meant when you said Vanus said he never liked Mannimarco? To me, it comes across somewhat differently. He's classing Mannimarco as a constant irritation 'almost from the first moment we met.' That 'almost' does a lot of heavy lifting, because it shows Vanus is admitting they weren't always antagonists, but he's not going to say how long they were friends; also, it speaks to a bit of reordering the history of their relationship, which could be because of feelings of betrayal, or resentment, or bitterness (or something else). A kind of defensive, "I never liked him anyway!" once Mannimarco became the evil force we see in ESO.

I remember that differently - without the "almost", both in PTS as well as in the final German translation, which was the reason I criticised it. I just checked on UESP, there that line is noted as:
"Mannimarco has been a thorn in my side since practically the first day I met him."
I wonder whether that line was changed at some point, as I did bring that topic up on the PTS forum and I might not have been the only person.

Hmm...now I wonder if I changed it in my mind from 'practically' to 'almost'--I don't think I did, because I wrote it down immediately after talking to him, but it's possible. Whether the word is 'practically' or 'almost', it still does a lot of heavy lifting. I really think it's a case of the Great Mage reimagining his past with Mannimarco, which I find interesting.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Anyway, I figure today I'll see if my character is sufficiently acquainted with Darien to talk him down from his Meridia madness, but before he can even do that, he's got to open up that temple door.

Did he manage to open the door yet?

Oh, he did! I do think it's a pity Darien didn't go with him on that quest, because I think Darien might have had some interesting opinions on the fervor of the Meridia priestess and some of her remarks. But I understand they weren't going to make a version of that quest for people who didn't do it when western Solstice first came out and only did it when they had to take Darien in there.

Anyway, remember that daedric cube you wondered about? The one that looks out of place in the temple? It's actually an object in the beginning of the quest with the priestess. When you first get to the warded/locked cynosure door, she tells you to look around for clues/hints. That cube is one of the objects you can point to and she'll comment on. When you do, she says, "Meridia priests contemplated those for hours. Shame about its condition." So I'm going to read "contemplated those for hours" as "tried to turn them into tools for Meridia" because that makes my initial guess correct.

What I wonder is, if you happen to point to the "correct" item first (the letter that explains things), the other two objects no longer become interactable (as happens in quests similar to this with a 'search for clues' mechanic where the quest marker doesn't highlight only the answer). So if you happened to choose the letter first, you might never have gotten the information about the cube.

As for Darien's ending, my character was not able to talk him down. He basically had one line about their experience in Coldharbour and then pretty much said, "That's all I've got." To which Darien said, "It's not enough!" And then the Great Mage came in and fixed everything (whew!). As far as the quest goes, I think that was a good ending for that character. After all, he barely knew Darien, so it makes sense that he couldn't reach him through the Meridia madness. The only thing that didn't quite work for me was the extreme friendliness of Darien's interactions throughout the quest leading up to it. Every time this character talked to Darien, there was very much the vibe of them being close friends and my character really having the power to give Darien the support he needed during his moments of crisis. I would have preferred if Darien had varying responses based on how well he knew the character, so that it fit better. That might be a bit beyond the scope of what the current quest dialogue is capable of--I don't know. But to have my character be so successful at talking to Darien all throughout the quest, and then not be able to reach him at the very end didn't quite fit. Regardless of that, I do like that there are different endings, and I hope ZOS continues to put more nuance and choice in quests.

Also, where did you get the information that Darien is being sent to Eyevea? I didn't come across that in my dialogues with Vanus, Darien or Skordo, so I was curious where it comes up.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I've seen people in these forums comment that a new character has a higher drop rate for leads. This leads to people creating throwaway characters so they can better farm some leads they're after. If that's indeed true, I think it's utterly ridiculous (the drop rate thing, not the workaround people are doing). Why should my main character, who has gone everywhere, done most everything, and leveled up the antiquity line, have a harder time getting leads to drop than some level 3 just stepping foot into Tamriel?

Really? So it's a deliberate method to get new players into playing more? Because if someone doesn't want to lose the golden leads, they will start to grind. (And if one doesn't like grinding, it has the opposite effect and feels annoying/frustrating. Especially the aspect of basically needing to rush through instead of being able to do it according to one's own schedule. Well, at least until the update comes that luckily extends the time one gets.) And yes, it doesn't really feel fair, either.

I'm not sure of the motivation behind it, but I do think it's silly. Of course, in my world, drop rates for leads (at least the first one) would be 100%. If I take the time to find out where a lead drops, then go to that place and kill the mob that carries it, I should get the lead. Same goes for leads sourced in lockboxes and from treasure maps.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You're right, we don't know a lot about Mannimarco. We can only go by what we've seen in game. It's possible he had nothing to do with the decorating scheme of the Castle of the Worm. It's possible it wasn't even a reward for loyal service, but a place where Molag Bal could keep a better eye on him.

I'm quite sure it was a gift from Molag Bal, considering it contains dozens of those statues of nude bald men. Which is nothing Mannimarco seems particularly interested in.

Some gift, hey? I wonder if it was like one of those gifts people sometimes give, when they just pull something out of the back of their closet that they don't value, wrap it up, and give it away.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The Traitor's Vault is a ruin by the time we go stomping around in it, so we don't really know what it looked like when Mannimarco was using it--but since it belonged to the Psijiics, I'm guessing Mannimarco didn't have a hand in its set-up/furnishing either.

He was only allowed to use it for his experiments, together with Vanny.

Now I wonder whether he already had picked up his furniture design hobby back then. And where do those people on Artaeum even get their furnishings from? Or their food? And where do they sleep? It didn't really look like there was much to live in.

Magic. Or a wizard did it. Or maybe Ceporah Tower has rooms we couldn't access. But since npcs seem to be more or less automatons anyway, it's possible they don't even need silly things like food or sleep.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Then there's Mor Naril, which is also quite bleak. I know you like the architecture of it, but Mannimarco didn't build it, he just squatted in it for awhile. There's not a lot of nice things there, either.

We've never seen what's inside most buildings, though. We run through those courtyards, and there's masses of brightly illuminated windows too all sides, but we only see a tiny part of the interiors.

Well, what I saw of the interior wasn't luxurious in the least.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Gristmung Hold didn't even have luxuries--tents in the courtyard and piles of supplies cluttering up the place and everything else very lab-like and industrial as they strove to make a better reaping device.

I begin to realize that his sarcophagus might be the coziest thing he's ever dwelled in. Though I think Gristmung Hold was never meant to be a place to live in. At least not for Mannimarco.

Lol, yeah, his sarcophagus is rather nice, isn't it? At least he's always got that!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Everything I've seen in game about Mannimarco gives me the impression he doesn't have a mind tuned to luxury.

How does he maintain his hair in those environments?

Lots of product. I mean, lots and lots of it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

However he uses it, it's certainly an interesting way to go about it. One of the loading screens for the planisphere has a quote from Amalexia on it, saying something along the lines of, "Most people just keep a journal, but of course Seht had to create the planisphere." (That's not the actual quote, but the gist of it is that she's giving a sort of eye-roll reaction to the planisphere and it gives me the idea she thinks it's a bit much).

It is a quite poetic depiction, and fits the idea I have of him. I think he's actually quite sentimental despite keeping a more serious and unemotional facade. And I do think it's hard for him. There's also a memory record from Almalexia in the Planisphere that I find telling:
"You can't care too much, my dear. How else will they learn to fend for themselves?"
She generally has a rather belittling tone towards him:
"You're a bore, Sil. You've just forgotten because everyone else is too scared to tell you."

Yeah, the quotes attributed to Almalexia do have a hard edge to them, much like she does. I've always found her the least approachable/appealing of the Tribunal, and it's interesting to me that she's called Mother Morrowind. I guess she excels in tough love. I also think Sil is sentimental; that's probably why he needs the planisphere, so he can separate out the emotion from the logic when he needs to. He wouldn't be my favorite if he was only purely logical.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It would be nice for me to feel again that much investment in a character in the world. I do think personal preference plays a part, too (though I'm not denying the impact of the writing). For someone who doesn't like Sil (crazy, I know, but I've seen people say so on these forums!) that conversation probably isn't anything very meaningful. If I liked Darien more (and I think he's fine--I don't dislike him), I might have gotten more out of his role in the most recent story. I do think his part was fairly well written.

I don't think he's badly written in the last story. I just personally don't like those character traits displayed there much (I'm not a person of many doubts, and if I see a problem, I solve it, or, if unsolvable, accept it, without iterating it ad nauseam - I have a very pragmatic approach to these things). One aspect that makes it even a bit more awkward is that my character never really cared much for him either, so it feels like he's bothering someone who doesn't care for him with all his sorrows, repeatedly, for days or weeks, or what ever timespan this is supposed to portray. For characters that are actually supposed to be friends with him, this situation would feel completely different, of course. So the problem is basically that the story asssumes our character's stance towards him, as being close friends, whether that's true for our own roleplay idea or not.

Yeah, that is a downside, and why I wish the dialogue could have been better tuned to account for the player character's friendship level and attitude towards him. I know we did get a few "harsh" responses we could make, but I'm thinking more along the lines of: if we responded harshly to Darien in the beginning, he would hesitate to bring up his concerns to us again instead of talking to us like we hadn't been rude to him before. But I honestly don't know if the system behind the npc dialogue can account for such things. Or perhaps the budget can't. Anyway, hopefully the character response options get refined upon and grow more nuanced, and hopefully ZOS keeps writing characters with more depth and nuance.

Syldras wrote: »

But my main issue with the content still is that this story was, quite literally, sold to us as something different ("Season of the Worm Cult"). I know they wanted to make Darien's return a surprise, but I don't like the assumption they made that everyone would be super happy about that so his return would make the whole chapter feel worthwhile for everyone - despite having been announced as something different. It really feels like they put most care in writing into his dialogues - which sadly means that for people who don't care about him, there's not much else.

I agree that there wasn't a whole lot of new information about the Worm Cult, and other than encountering them everywhere and killing them on sight, there wasn't a lot to do with them. I really do think ZOS didn't have much else to say about the Worm Cult, though. The cult was pretty well established in base game, its motivations and means (such as they were) had been gone over thoroughly, and bringing it back was probably for nostalgia/sequel reasons rather than because there was a new and interesting story to tell about it. I never thought having it back was a great idea, but it came back anyway.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, that's what collectors (and hoarders) do--collect/hoard the same types of things.

I collect fossils and succulents, and I only have 1 specimen per species each Okay, okay, I sometimes have different copies of the same work when it comes to antique books, but that's mostly because of different illustrations/copperplate prints.

Right, but it sounds like you carefully curate your collection. I doubt the Mages Guild has any such system. They just want all the books, full stop. So they lean more towards hoarding than targeted collecting. Sometimes there's not much difference between the two, at least not to me, but then I'm not a collector, so what do I know?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess just use them as tentacle deterrents and call it a day, then.

Why would one want to deter tentacles?

Why wouldn't one?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm guessing she blames us for whatever he's doing.

But why would she work with us another time then?

For the same reason Narsis Dren keeps asking us to help him, no matter how badly we might have treated him in the past: they've got no other options.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ha, more like wondering about the rules of magic in Tamriel. Is there consistency? Logic? Or is it just 'anything goes depending on individual power level'?

Well, it is a bit confusing. The thing that, according to several lore books, seems to be seen as "normal" necromancy is the thing that involves calling a soul back into the body to control it, while the method of just puppeteering around some corpse by stuffing life force into it and controlling it through that is seen as somehow "lesser" (or even "not really necromancy"). Then again, many necromancers control skeletons where only the latter method even works (because from a certain stage of decay on, the soul can't be returned because it won't stick with the body or something). And I'm quite sure that this would be considered necromancy by most people; a very standard form of necromancy, even.

Interesting. I thought that anything to do with animating or messing with the dead fell under the necromancy category.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So when Mannimarco makes a thrall of Vanus, is it Vanus' soul in there or just some energy or life force reanimating the corpse?

Technically, both is possible, with the method of having the soul present being the more complicated one. You can always shove life force into some dead being to make it move, but summoning the soul back is the more complicated - and artful - thing to do, obviously.

But it probably also depends on which result one wishes to see. Life force puppeteering with no soul involved means you'd have to control all movements of the corpse yourself, and of course it has no awareness at all, while methods that involve the dead person's soul mean that you'd get a more or less sentient and aware being (depending on quality of the summon as well as how much functionality the brain still has - the more it decays, the worse it gets) that can act on its own, has a personality, and might, if mentally present enough, answer questions and even have more or less interesting conversations. Basically comparable to a sleepwalker or someone in deep hypnosis. Mentally not entirely present, suggestible, but capable of talking (more or less intelligibly) and making their own movements. (See? If necromancy is just like whispering into a sleepwalker's ear, it's not that evil, is it? )

As for the question of how much awareness to what's happening Vanny had in that situation - we can't tell. I'm quite sure though that Mannimarco would have tried to summon Vanny's soul back. At least I'd think he was interested in him as an individual, not just in his body as some dead object without any sentience and awareness.

I wonder how much agony that would be for the Great Mage. His soul in his dead body, but he's not in control, and he has to hang around with Mannimarco all the time. If he thought Mannimarco was a bore before, imagine what he might think then! But seriously, it makes me extra sad for Vanus, knowing what's in store for him. I wish I could prevent it from happening. See, here's another character I have an investment in, but we hardly ever get to interact with him.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Listen, you said you were going to parade him about a festival. Considering that living people can get pretty worn down at festivals (too much drinking, dancing, and other forms of merry making), who knows what might happen to a corpse that has no regenerative properties left to it?

It's a Mara festival, which means it's probably not the most exciting thing anyway. And how is a thrall even supposed to drink?! He'll just follow me around, and maybe dance a bit once in a while, if motivated.

So you aren't going to take him along when you do the Sanguine quests?

On another note, I did the festival quests this morning, and I enjoyed them. I liked that we had some choices in the Sanguine quests, and I really liked the ending of the full quest line. It was sweet and sincere, both of which I enjoy, and neither of which we get very much of in this game. Quite fitting for a Mara festival, really.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Make sure you make one of those memory stone records of his reaction when you tell him that. I'd like to see it!

I wish Tamriel had Polaroids, so I could show Mannimarco lots of interesting photos of all the places we've been to while he was dead.

Now that's a show I would like to see!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

We can't know the answer to that, of course. I kind of read it as going along with his arrogance--he doesn't think he's going to fail (or, more accurately, that we're going to be able to stop him) so why not let us know he noticed we took his stuff? He probably figures he'll be around to get it back and punish us appropriately.

A failed attempt of being intimidating perhaps.

Perhaps, but of course he doesn't know it was a failed attempt, which makes it more interesting to me.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Hmm...now I wonder if I changed it in my mind from 'practically' to 'almost'--I don't think I did, because I wrote it down immediately after talking to him, but it's possible. Whether the word is 'practically' or 'almost', it still does a lot of heavy lifting. I really think it's a case of the Great Mage reimagining his past with Mannimarco, which I find interesting.

I think he's ashamed and wouldn't want to admit how close they had been. It's still a pity we can't talk to him about it.

Agreed! But then, I'm always going to want more out of interactions with my favored npcs than the game can realistically give me. That's why I write little stories about them on my own time.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Anyway, remember that daedric cube you wondered about? The one that looks out of place in the temple? It's actually an object in the beginning of the quest with the priestess. When you first get to the warded/locked cynosure door, she tells you to look around for clues/hints. That cube is one of the objects you can point to and she'll comment on. When you do, she says, "Meridia priests contemplated those for hours. Shame about its condition." So I'm going to read "contemplated those for hours" as "tried to turn them into tools for Meridia" because that makes my initial guess correct.
What I wonder is, if you happen to point to the "correct" item first (the letter that explains things), the other two objects no longer become interactable (as happens in quests similar to this with a 'search for clues' mechanic where the quest marker doesn't highlight only the answer). So if you happened to choose the letter first, you might never have gotten the information about the cube.

Well, I guess that happened in my case as I clearly don't remember that dialogue. Also, I have a tendency to choose letters or books first because I usually think they might provide some useful info for the situation. At least more info than some clutter.

Yeah, same here. I don't recall the cube from my first playthrough either. But this time, when I saw it was an available choice, I made sure to click it first so I could report back.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, where did you get the information that Darien is being sent to Eyevea? I didn't come across that in my dialogues with Vanus, Darien or Skordo, so I was curious where it comes up.

Strange. I'm sure it was said rather clearly, but all I can find on UESP right now is this, within the last conversation on the ship:
"Vanus has plans for me. Says he has somewhere I'll be safe until things calm down, or he figures out what in Oblivion is going on with me."
And after ending the conversation he'll say:
"Time for Skordo and me to go find this magical little island to kick back on for a bit. Vanus didn't give us, uh, instructions."
Maybe the UESP articles are still incomplete, or they changed something...

It's possible they did change it. I remember Darien asking Skordo if he had any money, and Skordo being surprised that they had to pay for their passage--he assumed Vanus would have arranged it. And neither one seemed too sure of where they were going. Well, whether they're in Eyevea or the Great Mage's private residence, we won't see them again for some time, I imagine.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm not sure of the motivation behind it, but I do think it's silly. Of course, in my world, drop rates for leads (at least the first one) would be 100%. If I take the time to find out where a lead drops, then go to that place and kill the mob that carries it, I should get the lead. Same goes for leads sourced in lockboxes and from treasure maps.

I suspect the reason is to generate play time. Many quests/tasks are exactly designed like that, all those chores, for example. Whether it's a reasonable decision...?! All I can say is that, if frustration gets too big, many people will rather lose interest and give up a task altogether.

Most likely. It's why MMOs have grinds, after all. But the second and third lead drops can be for the grinding bit, for people who want to complete the codex. The first one? Why not just make it 100%? Oh well, it's not like this conversation is going to change anything, so I'll leave it alone now.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Magic. Or a wizard did it. Or maybe Ceporah Tower has rooms we couldn't access. But since npcs seem to be more or less automatons anyway, it's possible they don't even need silly things like food or sleep.

Many of the base game towns suffer from that. I think one of the first things I thought when seeing Vulkhelguard for the first time a decade ago was "Where do all these people live?!" Who knows; maybe they just descend into the ocean every night, like dreugh...

Lol! What's also amusing to me is the houses that do exist, and have the npc names attached to them--those npcs are usually inside the houses. Which means that every npc outside doesn't have a home. So probably the npcs with homes never leave them because they don't want to risk someone wandering in and claiming it as their own.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol, yeah, his sarcophagus is rather nice, isn't it? At least he's always got that!

Makes me wonder whether it's supposed to be the same one that he has in TES2 Daggerfall. Must be the farthest-travelled sarcophagus of all history

Maybe that's why it's not quite pristine. It's traveled through Tamriel, at least one realm of Oblivion, and probably time for all we know.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, the quotes attributed to Almalexia do have a hard edge to them, much like she does. I've always found her the least approachable/appealing of the Tribunal, and it's interesting to me that she's called Mother Morrowind. I guess she excels in tough love.

I think it's very much possible that the average Dunmer knows nothing about how she actually behaves and has a rather idealized view of her. She often has very much the aspects attributed to her that the believers of the Divines attribute to Mara (her shrine on Vvardenfell even functions as a Shrine of Mara). Then again, she is officially seen as the successor of Boethia, who is really not a merciful figure at all (and even clearly includes the scheming/betrayal aspect that we'd also see in Almalexia in TES3). Maybe there's really some big difference between the common "folk belief" and the more complicated Temple teachings that mostly only scholars would discuss.

Magistrix Vox found out the hard way. I initially did find Boethia being the Anticipation of Almalexia an odd fit, but the more one learns about Almalexia, the more one sees the resemblance. I can see how the average Dunmer, just going along in their life, wouldn't see that aspect of her, or think too much about it. But I know. And you know. And Sil knows.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also think Sil is sentimental; that's probably why he needs the planisphere, so he can separate out the emotion from the logic when he needs to. He wouldn't be my favorite if he was only purely logical.

For me, the tragic aspect is the most interesting and appealing thing about this character, I guess.

Every npc I really like has a tragic end, it seems. Tamriel is a horrible place, really, when all is said and done. I should say Nirn, because I don't think the tragedy is confined to just Tamriel. I guess the rule is: the more important one is, the more tragic one's end.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Right, but it sounds like you carefully curate your collection. I doubt the Mages Guild has any such system. They just want all the books, full stop. So they lean more towards hoarding than targeted collecting. Sometimes there's not much difference between the two, at least not to me, but then I'm not a collector, so what do I know?

But why are they so unorganized? They're scholars, they should be able to keep everything orderly and categorized - at least some of them surely must be capable of that? (Though, honestly, the guild halls often seem to be a mess - think of the guy at the entrance in the Solstice guild hall, or all those drunks upstairs; and I'm sure I've seen similar things in other guild halls as well).

Haven't we talked before about how the Guild lets just anyone in? They aren't all organized scholars, I'm sure. Then of course you have the trope of the brilliant but messy/disorganized person. Or maybe the guild did start with a really good organized and catalogued collection, but everyone kept coming into the guild halls, borrowing things, putting them back in the wrong place, and so forth. Honestly, the guild really needs more security. Particularly when powerful relics like the Staff of Magnus can just go missing...twice!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Why wouldn't one?

No nice, relaxing tentacle massage without tentacles!

I question whether a tentacle can give a good massage, but if that's what you like, no judgment here.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

For the same reason Narsis Dren keeps asking us to help him, no matter how badly we might have treated him in the past: they've got no other options.

But can he really remember us? Maybe he's too self-centered to keep something like that in mind.

He's very self-absorbed, true, but he does remember my character--he even remembers being tricked by him--yet he still asks for help every time. It's not too surprising, considering the "assistants" he usually has around him, that he'll grasp at any chance for competent help.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder how much agony that would be for the Great Mage. His soul in his dead body, but he's not in control, and he has to hang around with Mannimarco all the time. If he thought Mannimarco was a bore before, imagine what he might think then! But seriously, it makes me extra sad for Vanus, knowing what's in store for him. I wish I could prevent it from happening. See, here's another character I have an investment in, but we hardly ever get to interact with him.

Is it comforting that all we have about his fate is one lorebook? I mean, the account could be wrong?

It actually is, because we know the game lorebooks all have author bias in them (talking about the fictional authors) and we've even discussed how accurate or not the account of Mannimarco and Vanus' final confrontation might be.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

On another note, I did the festival quests this morning, and I enjoyed them. I liked that we had some choices in the Sanguine quests, and I really liked the ending of the full quest line. It was sweet and sincere, both of which I enjoy, and neither of which we get very much of in this game. Quite fitting for a Mara festival, really.

I'm glad they did fix all lore mistakes! I really hadn't expected it somehow because, sadly, there had been quite a lot of them.

It's great they fixed them! I thought Sanguine's appearance fit what he's done at other festivals--showing up and adding himself to the mix in a small way--and I thought Kuzam-jo's reaction to it fitting for his character and perspective.

Syldras wrote: »

I'm wondering about one thing; not sure whether I'll have enough time to test it myself, and also, I'm playing a translation anyway... Are you still planning to take another of your characters through that questline? If so, could you look what the quest log says about the last quest? The quest description, I mean? Right after you've helped the group of friends and then talk to the Mara priest for the last time. I think the quest name is "Matters of the Heart", and normally, you won't look at the quest log inbetween because it's more or less one continuous dialogue. UESP gives this as the quest description and I'm wondering whether it's actually in the quest log like this, or whether it was just some user who wrote it down like this on UESP:
"Bring all your learnings back to Kuzam-jo and make a critical decision that will shake the foundations of Tamriel."

You know, I very rarely look at the quest journal once I've picked up a quest; it's just not something that occurs to me to do, since I understood the point of the quest when it was given to me. Now I wonder if I've been missing out on little nuggets of information that way.

Anyway, I made sure to check the quest journal at every possible point during the Matters of the Heart quest and did not see that line anywhere. If it's there, I missed it. Here's what I did see.

Kuzam-jo would like to hug me, but only if I'm comfortable with it. I should decide whether or not I want to hug him.

Kuzam-jo would like to speak to me now that we're through this matter of hugs. (Honestly, I thought this one worded a bit oddly..."now that we're through this matter of hugs"...makes it seem like it was some major quandary.)

Kuzam-jo gifted me an Amulet of the Heart in honor of what I accomplished during Hearts Week. He said I should hold it in my hands and feel its light.

I used the Amulet of the Heart and it shined with light. I should talk with Kuzam-jo.

If that 'shake the foundations' line was once there, it's possible it got changed.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Perhaps, but of course he doesn't know it was a failed attempt, which makes it more interesting to me.

At least he doesn't show any doubts, which is probably also the best decision in his situation there.

What would it look like if Mannimarco ever showed doubts? From everything I've seen of him in game, he doesn't have doubts. Ever.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Agreed! But then, I'm always going to want more out of interactions with my favored npcs than the game can realistically give me. That's why I write little stories about them on my own time.

Anything of interest to share about Vanny? I understand, of course, if you don't want that.

Well, the thing about the Great Mage is: I'm not sure I could adequately capture him with my words. I've thought about writing a conversation where my main talks to him about Artaeum, but never actually done it. Vanus is so aloof and can be evasive, that I think I would almost certainly make him far more confiding and open than he would actually be. However, if I ever do manage something, I will share it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's possible they did change it. I remember Darien asking Skordo if he had any money, and Skordo being surprised that they had to pay for their passage--he assumed Vanus would have arranged it. And neither one seemed too sure of where they were going. Well, whether they're in Eyevea or the Great Mage's private residence, we won't see them again for some time, I imagine.

But why would they change it? To keep all options open for the time when they'd continue the story in some years (if they do)? Or to avoid contradictions for players who have not freed Eyevea yet? Then again, this chapter was supposed to be a continuation of the old stories and relies a lot on old questlines already having been finished (like the base game main quest and the Fighters Guild questline). So I'm not sure why they'd make an exception with Eyevea.

I'm quite sure they don't travel to Vanny's home, though. He had dialogue about "watching them from afar" or something like that - and suggesting we should do the same (though I'm not even sure how our player character would be able to do that?!)...

If they changed it, I would guess it had to do with keeping their options open for possible future stories. No clue how our characters could watch Darien from afar when we don't even know where he's going to be--in fact, that'll be my character's defense when things inevitably go sideways and the Great Mage takes him to task for not keeping a better eye on things. He'll turn it around and take the Great Mage to task for being so in the habit of keeping secrets that he neglected to tell anyone where Darien was sent.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Most likely. It's why MMOs have grinds, after all. But the second and third lead drops can be for the grinding bit, for people who want to complete the codex. The first one? Why not just make it 100%? Oh well, it's not like this conversation is going to change anything, so I'll leave it alone now.

I mean, people can buy leads through the archive now - which is another grind.

And of course, there's an Archive-related archievement for the new event now, and it's horribly bugged.

I've done enough Infinite Archive to get enough of its currency to purchase one lead. I don't like IA particularly, so for me it's not a viable avenue for leads. I'm glad people who do have that currency can use it for leads if they want to, though. Same with PvP currency and leads bought with that. I just think drop based leads don't need to have such punishing rng, especially for the very first find. It doesn't encourage game play for me.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe that's why it's not quite pristine. It's traveled through Tamriel, at least one realm of Oblivion, and probably time for all we know.

I actually read something very funny about Mannimarco's Necromancer's Amulet some days ago:



Maybe he did the same with his sarcophagus; though the question remains how it's capable of teleporting together with its content (without content, sarcophagus only, would be very inconvenient)

Of course Mannimarco would have such an amulet! But let's say the sarcophagus is similarly enchanted. I believe Mannimarco clever enough to figure out a way to keep box and contents together forever.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Magistrix Vox found out the hard way. I initially did find Boethia being the Anticipation of Almalexia an odd fit, but the more one learns about Almalexia, the more one sees the resemblance. I can see how the average Dunmer, just going along in their life, wouldn't see that aspect of her, or think too much about it. But I know. And you know. And Sil knows.

And Sil's Anticipation is Azura.

Who, funnily enough, is the only Daedric Prince I come even close to liking.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Every npc I really like has a tragic end, it seems. Tamriel is a horrible place, really, when all is said and done. I should say Nirn, because I don't think the tragedy is confined to just Tamriel. I guess the rule is: the more important one is, the more tragic one's end.

Well, I hope Revus is an exception to that.

But yes, it is a horrible and dangerous place. Which is one reason that so many quests lately feel somehow out of place to me, as they don't usually carry that severity anymore. Of course there can always be humourous moments. And I have nothing against a funny quest every now and then. More lighthearted event quests for Christmas and Valentine's also fit, of course. But the weighting, looking at the game as a whole, now somehow feels off to me.

I think the overall quests haven't been well-served by the general "quippiness" that is everywhere in modern U.S. culture these days. That, and memes, have really done a number on people's abilities to have straight-forward and sincere interactions, at least online. But I won't wander too far down the road of what I think of social media (and yes, I'm aware these forums are a form of social media).

Anyway, I wouldn't necessarily want to play a game that was all dark and gloomy all the time, either. Like you said, humor has its place; it's really about striking the right balance.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Haven't we talked before about how the Guild lets just anyone in? They aren't all organized scholars, I'm sure. Then of course you have the trope of the brilliant but messy/disorganized person. Or maybe the guild did start with a really good organized and catalogued collection, but everyone kept coming into the guild halls, borrowing things, putting them back in the wrong place, and so forth.

A place getting a little chaotic at times due to being overfocused on some research project is something I understand well (and I don't think it's a real problem if one takes care of it afterwards). But all those drunks, for example? You wouldn't allow drunken people hanging around in a school or university building, or a library or archive, so why does no one throw them out of the guild halls? Aren't they supposed to be a place of study? I think Vanny should have a look at the different guild halls more often...

So, when was it that the Great Mage abandoned the guild in disgust because it had become too bureaucratic? Or was it too focused on rank? Because maybe he sees what the guild is like these days and has washed his hands of it. We don't know exactly what he does with his time, but it's possible he's too busy to babysit the guild anyway.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Honestly, the guild really needs more security. Particularly when powerful relics like the Staff of Magnus can just go missing...twice!

Maybe I should take the Staff of Magnus. Or hand it over to Divayth. He takes good care of his relicts, at least!

Well, right now Naemon has it. He'll probably take good care of it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's great they fixed them! I thought Sanguine's appearance fit what he's done at other festivals--showing up and adding himself to the mix in a small way--and I thought Kuzam-jo's reaction to it fitting for his character and perspective.

The Mara priest still felt a little too careless to me; at least I'd think that a priest of the Divines would find a daedra worshipper showing up at a festival for a Divine rather concerning.

I think he feels like Samara has a point, and she's just one person (guess he doesn't realize it's Sanguine). Plus, he has us handle it. She also isn't being disruptive, at least not over where Kuzam-jo hangs out, so he might be trying to really embody Mara's virtues by not making a fuss. I don't find it as implausible as you do that Mara's teachings would lead to him allowing a single Sanguine worshipper to participate in the festivities.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If that 'shake the foundations' line was once there, it's possible it got changed.

Thanks for checking! If it had originally been there on PTS, I really appreciate that they removed it. I think something heartfelt would have been more appropriate in that situation than... well... those ironic exaggerations that show up increasingly often within the past few years, where you get the feeling that everything needs to be "ironic" and nothing is actually taken seriously anymore. It also feels like basically an "distanced onlooking vs immersion" thing. Which might not be the smartest decision for a genre in which immersion, actually taking the depicted situations seriously and emphasizing with the characters involved, is a very central point for many players.

Yeah, as I was reading the journal (and hoping that line did not appear) I was thinking over why it would have been included, and it did seem like it might have been put in as a joke, which sort of belittles the entire point of the hugging quest. So I'm glad I didn't find it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

What would it look like if Mannimarco ever showed doubts? From everything I've seen of him in game, he doesn't have doubts. Ever.

Showing doubts (or any deeper, especially "negative", feelings at all) doesn't help if the aim is to be perceived as a strong, invincible leader. What Mannimarco truly feels might be a completely different thing. How could it still show, between the lines? Perhaps a certain nervousness. Making plans in case of failure. Being overly careful.

He doesn't even admit to doubt in his journals, which is where you would expect someone to express such feelings. I really don't think there's much of a gap between what he feels and what he says/does. That's just my impression of him in this game, which is all I have to go on (I played Daggerfall too long ago to remember him, and I never got far in Oblivion because it bored me). But we do know he did make elaborate, extensive plans in case of failure (the whole Wormblood/secret Worm Cult revival thing), so perhaps that was him doubting himself. (However, I've mentioned before I didn't quite buy that he would set up such an intricate plan in case he failed, because I didn't believe he believed himself capable of failure).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, the thing about the Great Mage is: I'm not sure I could adequately capture him with my words. I've thought about writing a conversation where my main talks to him about Artaeum, but never actually done it. Vanus is so aloof and can be evasive, that I think I would almost certainly make him far more confiding and open than he would actually be. However, if I ever do manage something, I will share it.

Thanks. I also think I couldn't get his tone right. Young Vanny? Perhaps. But even that would be difficult. He's too different from my own disposition, and I'm not a fiction writer anyway (apart from a few things when I was much younger). I mean, yes, I do roleplay characters that are not like me in real life. But sometimes, the gap is so big it's making it difficult.

I am a fiction writer, but when it comes to using characters I didn't create, it's always more difficult. Young Vanus might be easier, but I still think I would make him more carefree than he might be, considering his childhood. As far as roleplay goes, you created those characters, so you know how they would think/act in any given situation, so that makes it easier to have them act differently to how you personally would. (At least that's how it is for me).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If they changed it, I would guess it had to do with keeping their options open for possible future stories. No clue how our characters could watch Darien from afar when we don't even know where he's going to be--in fact, that'll be my character's defense when things inevitably go sideways and the Great Mage takes him to task for not keeping a better eye on things. He'll turn it around and take the Great Mage to task for being so in the habit of keeping secrets that he neglected to tell anyone where Darien was sent.

Now I wonder whether Darien and Skordo do actually show up somewhere? Eyevea or elsewhere? But I think they just remain on that ship in Solstice harbor, right? Or are they gone? (Which would be even more funny somehow, if the ship is still there, but they're not).

I would just assume the ship had taken them to their destination and returned to Solstice, ready for its next cargo. I think it would be nice if they did show up some place in game, simply because having them totally disappear until they're next needed makes for a strange world indeed. Stranger, that is. Tamriel is pretty odd.

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

Just dropping in to say that I just ran Zerith-Var's initial quest, and I would appreciate more writing like that.

Yes, that is one of the stand-out recent quests. I wish they could all reach that level.

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

Just dropping in to say that I just ran Zerith-Var's initial quest, and I would appreciate more writing like that.

Indeed. That one was awesome, and for me also Corelanya Manor from West Solstice. I wish we would see something like that more often!

Malyore wrote: »

I've heard from other sources that one of the major writers to Zerith Var is no longer working at ZOS. I don't know what will follow.

That's sad! The writer for Revus Demnevanni and Sotha Sil in CWC and Summerset also isn't at ZOS anymore, sadly. A great loss.

So, another thing - though I'm aware that some people have already read it elsewhere, but it fits this thread so well:

I just came across this lorebook inside the Belkarth tavern, upstairs. I had not seen it on the first day of the event, probably because it had been so crowded there:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Reigniting_Love_for_Contemporary_Audiences

Now, I'm aware that this is a fictional document from a fictional author. But I think the view that is voiced there about writing and about the public's criticism and how tto react on it, is interesting to discuss, nonetheless. Especially this passage caught my intention, which is about how that theater author perceives criticism about, for example, plot holes:
"I think so often about the sensibilities of contemporary audiences. Gone are the years of quietly interrogating a play's themes and values. Now, I often find rabbles of theatergoers huddled outside playhouses, wrestling not with the work itself, but with a perceived merit measured against such mindless drivel as plot holes and unlikable characters."
Also the topic of "values" (I read it as "moral lessons"?) is touched there.

Of course, this is also interesting, about the perceived need to change old, established stories for "commoners" or new audiences:
"But if stories are to survive, they must change with the times, yes? And I hear my critics now. How dare she reduce tragedy to fashionable action? To which I say, do the commoners not deserve art?"

Anyway - I'm going to reply to your other message soon, @metheglyn , I just need a tea break first

Malyore wrote: »

The writer I'm referring to for Zerith also worked on Sil in CWC. I believe there were two writers namely attributed to it? I'm not sure if saying names on the forums will be struck down with censorship, but I heard one writer was a young guy, while the other was more like a turtle. If you know, you know.
It really is a shame that they're not included anymore. Sil and Zerith really are such gemstones in ESO and have the best writing I have seen in this game.

I meant turtle guy. And yes, I agree - best writing of all ESO! The ending dialogue of CWC was absolutely my favorite moment of the whole game, until today. Can't we just get back to the level the writing had until Summerset?

It's a bit depressing. I've always been in contact with lore-focused players and we had wonderful conversations over the years. I also knew people with a main focus on stories and roleplay. Many have become discontent over the years and left. My friends list in game is more or less dead by now.

Malyore wrote: »

I'm not ashamed to say that it was Sil's ending dialogue which was the only thing in ESO to have actually made me shed a tear. The way the conversation went, it truly felt like he spoke right into the soul of my character, and it hit really hard. It even changed the nature of my character! I know some of it was coincidence to match up so well with my interpretation, but it was also such beautiful dialogue and such a treat to get.

That's the main difference compared to the writing lately, I think: Back then the stories managed to evoke strong emotions. I actually felt joyful about some characters' story ending happily, and horrible tragic outcomes left me saddened. Now, we're rarely allowed to even immerse that much. There's always some joke that breaks the atmosphere, or the narration doesn't even reach that emotional depth. Making characters clichéd/one-dimensional also doesn't help, because there needs to be at least some semblance of "realism"/believability, some illusion that makes us feel for a fictional being like for an actual person while immersed in the story, to feel and care for this character and what happens to them. At least I can't emphasize with a character much if they don't feel like a person, but like a cliché or even a joke.

I mean, yes, such characters always existed, and they also have their purpose (think of Narsis Dren, for example - things often end horribly for him, but it evokes no real, deep feelings, because he's just the trope "that annoying haughty guy who thinks highly of himself while being absolutely talentless"). It's about the balance; humour has its place in Tamriel, but for immersion and deeper emotions, there must be more than just jokes.

Malyore wrote: »

Do you write your own unique stories, Syldras?

No. Should I? Well, I wrote a few stories when I was younger. But nowadays I just write poetry, every now and then.

Malyore wrote: »

I critique the game as an audience, and while I do create stories, I don't write them– they haven't gotten far enough in development yet. So it's difficult for me to critique in a way that shares "do's" rather than "don'ts".

I think what would benefit the writing is a vast knowledge about older stories, real world cultures, history,... everything that broadens the horizon. It's hard to write interesting stories for such a big fictional world, I guess, a world with many different cultures and set in a completely foreign universe in a pseudo-historical time, that would be more archaic than the things we usually experience every day in real life now, if one can't draw on knowledge to make this world foreign, but still plausible. If all one knows is the current real world, then the writing will look like the current real world, which might not be the most interesting thing for a fantasy epos

Syldras wrote: »

[...]
So, another thing - though I'm aware that some people have already read it elsewhere, but it fits this thread so well:

I just came across this lorebook inside the Belkarth tavern, upstairs. I had not seen it on the first day of the event, probably because it had been so crowded there:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Reigniting_Love_for_Contemporary_Audiences

Now, I'm aware that this is a fictional document from a fictional author. But I think the view that is voiced there about writing and about the public's criticism and how tto react on it, is interesting to discuss, nonetheless. Especially this passage caught my intention, which is about how that theater author perceives criticism about, for example, plot holes:
"I think so often about the sensibilities of contemporary audiences. Gone are the years of quietly interrogating a play's themes and values. Now, I often find rabbles of theatergoers huddled outside playhouses, wrestling not with the work itself, but with a perceived merit measured against such mindless drivel as plot holes and unlikable characters."
Also the topic of "values" (I read it as "moral lessons"?) is touched there.

Of course, this is also interesting, about the perceived need to change old, established stories for "commoners" or new audiences:
"But if stories are to survive, they must change with the times, yes? And I hear my critics now. How dare she reduce tragedy to fashionable action? To which I say, do the commoners not deserve art?"
[...]

Was not aware of that book. At first impression it would seem this in-game book is a bit of tongue-in-cheek commentary by Tanlorin's author on public opinion/criticism regarding story writing. Possibly directed at the forums and lore enthusiasts if I had to guess.