Some interesting discussion on this topic. I can see perspective from both sides. One side seeing subclassing as an opportunity for creativity and playing into a fantasy not available in ESO before. And the other side wanting to reduce homogenization of classes and specs.

1. "as a base class X": at first, I also thought this was an odd way of addressing subclassing because it doesn't necessarily prevent it, but empowers the DK main version of subclassing. However, I do not believe this is Zos answer to subclassing. During Zos end of year notes last year and objectives of class rework, they emphasized that they wanted to reinstate pure class identity and reinforce that class fantasy. And this is where the "as a base class x" comes in. The base class of all classes (once all reworks are done) will have unique perks/passives that highlight their class fantasy. For DK its highlight the powerful whip that is iconic to the class. For other classes they will get that perk with the reworks

2. Subclassing: The answer to subclassing as many have mentioned is the restructuring of the 3 class skill lines to have a cohesive and synergistic theme as opposed to splitting them to a DPS, TANK, HEAL skill line. As others have stated it looks good for DK since they are the first to have the rework compared to other less performant classes. I agree with that notion but that is not a subclassing issue, that is a prioritization issue on Zos part. How do we prioritize which order we rework classes (least performant classes first or the most broken classes first). Maybe Zos should put out polls and ask the communities which classes we should rework next moving forward.

Overall, initially i wasn't a fan of the "base class X" but I see its potential once all classes are reworked. It could provide an extra flavor on top for each class. You can still subclass, but now your base class may matter in the equation if you want to tap into that nuanced power.

We all have to be honest though. Subclassing looked ok in theory but became problematic in practice and as a community people were leaving the game over the stagnant gameplay subclasses created. Zos saw the dwindling player numbers and the negative sentiment in the community and based off the feedback we provided, subclassing vs pure classing was one of the biggest grievances amongst players. So here we are, the transition won't be smooth or pleasant all the time, but it's a necessary evil til the work gets done. Then, we can truly assess some of these changes on a whole in the new class system 2.0

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

the grind is what keeps people invested

LOL no it doesn't. For someone so big on the "people have jobs" line, you should really understand that adults with jobs and families are here to play what they logged in for, not be told by the game they must do the dishes before they're allowed to PvP.

Nobody on your beloved Gray Host is logging into this game excited for the latest PvE DLC proc set grind, or excited to gather mats for alchemy pots, or excited to clear overworld trash mobs they cleared a decade ago. You roadblock the content people actually want, they leave.

In this case the "as a base class" seems to be in part a deterrent to obsessive meta chasing. Once the system is finished and balanced there should never be any need to grind a new character just to minmax subclassing, because there's no more mandatory busted combo to run.

Yall are also long time players of the game, so naturally you're more opposed to the idea of needing to level more characters. I am too hence why I really only play two of my five characters, one for pvp or pve solo content, the other for pve tanking.

But we're not representative of the majority of the player base, a lot of these pve types live for that sort of thing. Even taking into account though our small pvp base, there's many players who used to juggle characters with many classes and builds they leveled to keep the game fresh and try out new things, so even with vet players the need to have incentive or reason to make multiple characters due to class differences is there.

Subclassing even with this requirement will still be strong and probably still be used by sweats simply because not every class has everything available in their kit. Streak is still gonna be the best movement based skill in the game, dk still wont have cleanse or as much sustain as warden, etc.

Thats a good thing and will also keep players making multiple characters. Not all but those that do love the grind.

Which grinding character levels has never been easier, the most annoying thing is getting the skyshards for them that you need but even that's not so bad. The pvers do this sort of thing so often itd make most pvper's head spin and yea they do it despite working 9-5s and not even from work like I do.

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Having reasons to make new characters is the lifeblood of many mmos, its why they havent given us a class change token before even though subclassing flies in the face of that now.

The lifeblood isn't the 10 hours I spend leveling a character, it's the 10k hours I end up spending on PvP. Gatekeep me with chores, I take my 10k hours to something else.

That said, I don't actually care that this mechanic demands grinding separate characters, I care that the system is balanced so that there are no mandatory or busted subclass combos.

You yourself pointed out how small our pvp community is to the rest of the players here, and between you and I, you no longer play the game unless Vengeance is up as you've pointed out many times. So you're already divorced from the game largely, I'm still invested and want to see the game not go the way of Ashes of Creation or New World, etc etc.

But we do agree, I care about balance, and cost/ease of obtaining something is a part of that.

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

you no longer play the game unless

This major rework of all 7 classes over 2 years has the interest of many potential returning players, being exactly the sort of drastic overhaul that build PvP needs.

Players are getting too caught up on what the game will look like in the meantime. Like yeah it sucks waiting and some things will be a mechanical mess, but the game is already a mess.

Fair and agreed

The buff only applying if dk is your base class feels off because dk will be the only class that's been overhauled at the moment. If done right for the other classes, this would increase build diversity, which is a good thing imo. For example, if this is applied to streak, sub assault and spec bow, there would be a difference between a sorcwardblade, a wardsorcblade and a bladewardsorc.