Maintenance for the week of February 16:
• [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – February 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – February 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
Misleading Patch Notes: 11.3.3
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Radiate77✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you just picked up this game last year, your entire next two years will be spent worrying whether or not your Class is being sent to the guillotine.
Worried that when one of your three Skill Lines comes up to the chopping block, how are you going to be worse at what it is you love?Edited by Radiate77 on February 4, 2026 6:27PMDragon Priest [Restoring Light, Draconic Power, Grave Lord]
Death Knight [Grave Lord, Winter’s Embrace, Siphoning]
Pyromancer [Ardent Flame, Dawn’s Wrath, Earthen Heart]
Summoner [Living Death, Grave Lord, Daedric Summoning]
Ranger [Animal Companions, Green Balance, Shadow]
Druid [Earthen Heart, Animal Companions, Stormcalling]
Elementalist [Stormcalling, Winter’s Embrace, Ardent Flame]
Dawnguard [Dawn’s Wrath, Restoring Light, Ardent Flame]0 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭I support what ever gives the base class more identity, pure classes more power and ultimately more options.
But you make it sound like as base class DK, I could still subclass, but also benefit from my baseclass bonus?
This I would not support because it makes a subclassing DK suddenly a better DK than pure classing again.
Yes and no. What it means is a DK base using whip will use it better than say a NB base with dk subclass. What I’m trying to point out is if they apply this to at least 1 skill in every class skill line we go from class combination abc being a thing to now subclass abc does not work the same as subclass bca or cab. I’d even like to seem them apply this in a way where u can alter a dk skill based on what ur base class is for example on searing claw if base class is x alters the damage type of the skill. This would increase build diversity exponentially while also making base class choice an important decision when theory crafting a build.
I think DK base using whip being better than a NB base using whip is exactly what we want for more class identity.
The nuance is, will a DK subclass whip be better than a DK pureclass whip for me personally. I would like the pureclass whip to have batter base modifiers in that case, maybe based on scaling per skill line. Or a mastery buff for using only pure class. Anyway, maybe this will balance in the long run as you say, but overall this is what we asked for. Selfish as it may sound, I don't care how much power subclassers lose and are excluded from bonuses otherwise
If they apply this to at least 1 skill from every class line we will have substantially more build diversity while likely eliminating some of the pain points of class combination xyz being the go to option
What is this talk about these restrictions balancing Subclassing builds?
Have you guys missed the plot entirely?
Look at Dragonknight, they spread all of their power around to all three lines… there will be no DPS lines, no Healer ones, nor Tank lines.
That alone will fix the problem of running three of the same role-specific lines. We do not need weird uncalled for restrictions to skills.
Have you not read thru my other comments how what your calling restrictive isn’t necessarily as restrictive as you say. Applying a base class “restriction” to every skill line will actually create build diversity in the sense you choose dk nightblade Templar and say I choose Templar nightblade dk we will not perform the exact same if we use the same skills. If every class has something like this means your base class choice no matters and isn’t just an abitrary decision. Also where do you get my comment talking about subclassing balance. It doesn’t state that at all I’m talking build diversity and base class choice now being an important decision apart from certain sets or scribing skills.
The last thing this game needs, is more complicated conditional requirements that will only prove to frustrate players.
And wow would that already fail the ‘cool’ test, instead of giving our new Classes a name, we’re stuck injecting whatever our base is? “Yeah I’m a Dragonknight Ranger” what???
Now I’ve gotta tell my friends, “hey man, I know we’re using the same skill lines, but you chose the wrong class, you need to go re-learn all of your motifs, go farm Skill Points again, and grab all of your Lorebooks and Portals.”
Most won’t.
They will just quit and who can blame them?
There should be no distinction between a Nightblade Ranger or a Warden Ranger.
The distinction, is that you’ve chosen the three skills lines that would comprise the class out of hundreds if not thousands of options.
Also; you’re asking for relevance? “while likely eliminating the pain points of class combination XYZ” what are the pain points if not balance?
One solution already slowly being implemented is account wide achievements pain points such as sub terrain assault bow proc combos in PvP. Why shouldn’t there be a distinction between like you said a nb ranger versus a warden ranger? They are essentially 2 different classes. Sure they may use all the same skills. By your logic just remove classes from game and just players pick 3 of the 21 class skill lines which bring us right back to everyone picking xyz because meta. We already have some class restricted skills in game thanx to scribing and class mastery as well as class sets even if class sets are underwhelming. There isn’t really any point arguing. You say it’s complicated while I say it’s pretty straightforward you want the bonus power from whip you start with a dk.2 -
Radiate77✭✭✭✭✭
✭I support what ever gives the base class more identity, pure classes more power and ultimately more options.
But you make it sound like as base class DK, I could still subclass, but also benefit from my baseclass bonus?
This I would not support because it makes a subclassing DK suddenly a better DK than pure classing again.
Yes and no. What it means is a DK base using whip will use it better than say a NB base with dk subclass. What I’m trying to point out is if they apply this to at least 1 skill in every class skill line we go from class combination abc being a thing to now subclass abc does not work the same as subclass bca or cab. I’d even like to seem them apply this in a way where u can alter a dk skill based on what ur base class is for example on searing claw if base class is x alters the damage type of the skill. This would increase build diversity exponentially while also making base class choice an important decision when theory crafting a build.
I think DK base using whip being better than a NB base using whip is exactly what we want for more class identity.
The nuance is, will a DK subclass whip be better than a DK pureclass whip for me personally. I would like the pureclass whip to have batter base modifiers in that case, maybe based on scaling per skill line. Or a mastery buff for using only pure class. Anyway, maybe this will balance in the long run as you say, but overall this is what we asked for. Selfish as it may sound, I don't care how much power subclassers lose and are excluded from bonuses otherwise
If they apply this to at least 1 skill from every class line we will have substantially more build diversity while likely eliminating some of the pain points of class combination xyz being the go to option
What is this talk about these restrictions balancing Subclassing builds?
Have you guys missed the plot entirely?
Look at Dragonknight, they spread all of their power around to all three lines… there will be no DPS lines, no Healer ones, nor Tank lines.
That alone will fix the problem of running three of the same role-specific lines. We do not need weird uncalled for restrictions to skills.
Have you not read thru my other comments how what your calling restrictive isn’t necessarily as restrictive as you say. Applying a base class “restriction” to every skill line will actually create build diversity in the sense you choose dk nightblade Templar and say I choose Templar nightblade dk we will not perform the exact same if we use the same skills. If every class has something like this means your base class choice no matters and isn’t just an abitrary decision. Also where do you get my comment talking about subclassing balance. It doesn’t state that at all I’m talking build diversity and base class choice now being an important decision apart from certain sets or scribing skills.
The last thing this game needs, is more complicated conditional requirements that will only prove to frustrate players.
And wow would that already fail the ‘cool’ test, instead of giving our new Classes a name, we’re stuck injecting whatever our base is? “Yeah I’m a Dragonknight Ranger” what???
Now I’ve gotta tell my friends, “hey man, I know we’re using the same skill lines, but you chose the wrong class, you need to go re-learn all of your motifs, go farm Skill Points again, and grab all of your Lorebooks and Portals.”
Most won’t.
They will just quit and who can blame them?
There should be no distinction between a Nightblade Ranger or a Warden Ranger.
The distinction, is that you’ve chosen the three skills lines that would comprise the class out of hundreds if not thousands of options.
Also; you’re asking for relevance? “while likely eliminating the pain points of class combination XYZ” what are the pain points if not balance?
One solution already slowly being implemented is account wide achievements pain points such as sub terrain assault bow proc combos in PvP. Why shouldn’t there be a distinction between like you said a nb ranger versus a warden ranger? They are essentially 2 different classes. Sure they may use all the same skills. By your logic just remove classes from game and just players pick 3 of the 21 class skill lines which bring us right back to everyone picking xyz because meta. We already have some class restricted skills in game thanx to scribing and class mastery as well as class sets even if class sets are underwhelming. There isn’t really any point arguing. You say it’s complicated while I say it’s pretty straightforward you want the bonus power from whip you start with a dk.
You say people will just pick whatever the 3 best skill lines are, but fail to take into account the objective of this rework.
There will be no “best skill lines.”
Our current best skill lines are being chopped apart and thrown all over the place. Look at Ardent Flame. That was a top pick on Live. When this update rolls out players have two choices instead of one or three.
I’m saying we should have three choices, not two… nor one. I don’t want my only choices with Dragonknight when Subclassing from it to be Draconic Power or Earthen Heart.Dragon Priest [Restoring Light, Draconic Power, Grave Lord]
Death Knight [Grave Lord, Winter’s Embrace, Siphoning]
Pyromancer [Ardent Flame, Dawn’s Wrath, Earthen Heart]
Summoner [Living Death, Grave Lord, Daedric Summoning]
Ranger [Animal Companions, Green Balance, Shadow]
Druid [Earthen Heart, Animal Companions, Stormcalling]
Elementalist [Stormcalling, Winter’s Embrace, Ardent Flame]
Dawnguard [Dawn’s Wrath, Restoring Light, Ardent Flame]1 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭I support what ever gives the base class more identity, pure classes more power and ultimately more options.
But you make it sound like as base class DK, I could still subclass, but also benefit from my baseclass bonus?
This I would not support because it makes a subclassing DK suddenly a better DK than pure classing again.
Yes and no. What it means is a DK base using whip will use it better than say a NB base with dk subclass. What I’m trying to point out is if they apply this to at least 1 skill in every class skill line we go from class combination abc being a thing to now subclass abc does not work the same as subclass bca or cab. I’d even like to seem them apply this in a way where u can alter a dk skill based on what ur base class is for example on searing claw if base class is x alters the damage type of the skill. This would increase build diversity exponentially while also making base class choice an important decision when theory crafting a build.
I think DK base using whip being better than a NB base using whip is exactly what we want for more class identity.
The nuance is, will a DK subclass whip be better than a DK pureclass whip for me personally. I would like the pureclass whip to have batter base modifiers in that case, maybe based on scaling per skill line. Or a mastery buff for using only pure class. Anyway, maybe this will balance in the long run as you say, but overall this is what we asked for. Selfish as it may sound, I don't care how much power subclassers lose and are excluded from bonuses otherwise
If they apply this to at least 1 skill from every class line we will have substantially more build diversity while likely eliminating some of the pain points of class combination xyz being the go to option
What is this talk about these restrictions balancing Subclassing builds?
Have you guys missed the plot entirely?
Look at Dragonknight, they spread all of their power around to all three lines… there will be no DPS lines, no Healer ones, nor Tank lines.
That alone will fix the problem of running three of the same role-specific lines. We do not need weird uncalled for restrictions to skills.
Have you not read thru my other comments how what your calling restrictive isn’t necessarily as restrictive as you say. Applying a base class “restriction” to every skill line will actually create build diversity in the sense you choose dk nightblade Templar and say I choose Templar nightblade dk we will not perform the exact same if we use the same skills. If every class has something like this means your base class choice no matters and isn’t just an abitrary decision. Also where do you get my comment talking about subclassing balance. It doesn’t state that at all I’m talking build diversity and base class choice now being an important decision apart from certain sets or scribing skills.
The last thing this game needs, is more complicated conditional requirements that will only prove to frustrate players.
And wow would that already fail the ‘cool’ test, instead of giving our new Classes a name, we’re stuck injecting whatever our base is? “Yeah I’m a Dragonknight Ranger” what???
Now I’ve gotta tell my friends, “hey man, I know we’re using the same skill lines, but you chose the wrong class, you need to go re-learn all of your motifs, go farm Skill Points again, and grab all of your Lorebooks and Portals.”
Most won’t.
They will just quit and who can blame them?
There should be no distinction between a Nightblade Ranger or a Warden Ranger.
The distinction, is that you’ve chosen the three skills lines that would comprise the class out of hundreds if not thousands of options.
Also; you’re asking for relevance? “while likely eliminating the pain points of class combination XYZ” what are the pain points if not balance?
One solution already slowly being implemented is account wide achievements pain points such as sub terrain assault bow proc combos in PvP. Why shouldn’t there be a distinction between like you said a nb ranger versus a warden ranger? They are essentially 2 different classes. Sure they may use all the same skills. By your logic just remove classes from game and just players pick 3 of the 21 class skill lines which bring us right back to everyone picking xyz because meta. We already have some class restricted skills in game thanx to scribing and class mastery as well as class sets even if class sets are underwhelming. There isn’t really any point arguing. You say it’s complicated while I say it’s pretty straightforward you want the bonus power from whip you start with a dk.
You say people will just pick whatever the 3 best skill lines are, but fail to take into account the objective of this rework.
There will be no “best skill lines.”
Our current best skill lines are being chopped apart and thrown all over the place. Look at Ardent Flame. That was a top pick on Live. When this update rolls out players have two choices instead of one or three.
I’m saying we should have three choices, not two… nor one. I don’t want my only choices with Dragonknight when Subclassing from it to be Draconic Power or Earthen Heart.
This is why I said at least 1 skill from every skill line should have a similar restriction to whip. Dk is a proof of concept in the broad sense it will be hard to decide to give up a dk skill line for another classes skill line. Once every class has been reworked this should become even more difficult of a decision to make for every class. Also ppl will have 3 options with dk only caveat is whip won’t just be a stack stick skill if used for subclassing.0 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭.BardokRedSnow wrote: »I probably should reiterate as I always have to… this is for pvp.
And also, @BardokRedSnow idk why you keep saying in multiple threads, “we PvPers” as if you have more experience in PvP than who you’re talking to. You realize we play different platforms right? I primarily play PvP. This is a bad change FOR PvP. It was less bad when it was just PvE.
I stated that my opinion is for pvp because most here on the forums address my responses based on viewpoints coming from pve. Pretty simple really.
If you take it differently idk what to tell you.Edited by BardokRedSnow on February 4, 2026 10:29PMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...0 -
Radiate77✭✭✭✭✭
✭BardokRedSnow wrote: ».BardokRedSnow wrote: »I probably should reiterate as I always have to… this is for pvp.
And also, @BardokRedSnow idk why you keep saying in multiple threads, “we PvPers” as if you have more experience in PvP than who you’re talking to. You realize we play different platforms right? I primarily play PvP. This is a bad change FOR PvP. It was less bad when it was just PvE.
I stated that my opinion is for pvp because most here on the forums address my responses based on viewpoints coming from pve. Pretty simple really.
If you take it differently idk what to tell you.
I have no problem with you bro, but it’s now the second thread you’ve told me you’re coming from a PvP angle and so I felt it necessary to tell you that PvP is always on my mind when suggesting anything. I play PvE to get to PvP, or for fancy titles that fit the themes of my characters.
We agree on like 99% of things, this just isn’t one of them, and that’s fine. But you see how someone with my values would feel about something like this, right?
Nobody asked for Starter Classes to get ran over.
Why are we asking for Player Classes to be?Edited by Radiate77 on February 4, 2026 10:49PMDragon Priest [Restoring Light, Draconic Power, Grave Lord]
Death Knight [Grave Lord, Winter’s Embrace, Siphoning]
Pyromancer [Ardent Flame, Dawn’s Wrath, Earthen Heart]
Summoner [Living Death, Grave Lord, Daedric Summoning]
Ranger [Animal Companions, Green Balance, Shadow]
Druid [Earthen Heart, Animal Companions, Stormcalling]
Elementalist [Stormcalling, Winter’s Embrace, Ardent Flame]
Dawnguard [Dawn’s Wrath, Restoring Light, Ardent Flame]1 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: ».BardokRedSnow wrote: »I probably should reiterate as I always have to… this is for pvp.
And also, @BardokRedSnow idk why you keep saying in multiple threads, “we PvPers” as if you have more experience in PvP than who you’re talking to. You realize we play different platforms right? I primarily play PvP. This is a bad change FOR PvP. It was less bad when it was just PvE.
I stated that my opinion is for pvp because most here on the forums address my responses based on viewpoints coming from pve. Pretty simple really.
If you take it differently idk what to tell you.
I have no problem with you bro, but it’s now the second thread you’ve told me you’re coming from a PvP angle and so I felt it necessary to tell you that PvP is always on my mind when suggesting anything. I play PvE to get to PvP, or for fancy titles that fit the themes of my characters.
We agree on like 99% of things, this just isn’t one of them, and that’s fine. But you see how someone with my values would feel about something like this, right?
Nobody asked for Starter Classes to get ran over.
Why are we asking for Player Classes to be?
I didn't tell you specifically anything, it was in general to everyone because there's plenty of people that aren't regular viewers of the forums or regular posters that jump in at different intervals.
I get the reaction, it's not convenient to have to use a different character or have to level it up to get the full use out of the skill line. And that's a good thing.
Before we always had to level up multiple characters to experience what other classes had to offer. And it was this way during eso's peaks. Subclassing received so much criticism because it offered too much convenience. That convenience is the lack of balance we were talking about and its also in pve land why everything is beam now.
Its why people are hounded to make a meta beam build as dps, because you can fully kit out any skill line in an hour.
In an MMO especially, this is a terrible idea. Over trivializing things in a game where despite complaints, the grind is what keeps people invested is of course going to be bad. The very idea of "class mastery" insinuates time invested.
The inconvenience of losing some customization will be a good thing for everyone in the long run. Subclassing needs a cost, this is the cost.
Edited by BardokRedSnow on February 4, 2026 11:04PMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...2 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭TLDR Im in favor of almost anything that will help rid this game of homogenization. I shouldnt be able to just transfer three sorc skill lines on my DK and be a fully kitted Sorc, much less three damage skill lines from three classes, slap on some protective jewelry and be better than all three classes at what they do.
The base requirement is absolutely necessary imo, regardless of whatever inconvenience it brings. Its a small cost to pay for balance, and it still leaves subclassing a valid option in smaller ways depending on your build, as it should be. Or at least it will when every class has this base requirement.Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...2 -
Radiate77✭✭✭✭✭
✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »TLDR Im in favor of almost anything that will help rid this game of homogenization. I shouldnt be able to just transfer three sorc skill lines on my DK and be a fully kitted Sorc, much less three damage skill lines from three classes, slap on some protective jewelry and be better than all three classes at what they do.
The base requirement is absolutely necessary imo, regardless of whatever inconvenience it brings. Its a small cost to pay for balance, and it still leaves subclassing a valid option in smaller ways depending on your build, as it should be. Or at least it will when every class has this base requirement.
There will be no damage skill lines when this rework is done, Starter Class requirements are nothing short of punishment post-rework.
My community and I are not going to stick around and be punished for being creative.Edited by Radiate77 on February 4, 2026 11:14PMDragon Priest [Restoring Light, Draconic Power, Grave Lord]
Death Knight [Grave Lord, Winter’s Embrace, Siphoning]
Pyromancer [Ardent Flame, Dawn’s Wrath, Earthen Heart]
Summoner [Living Death, Grave Lord, Daedric Summoning]
Ranger [Animal Companions, Green Balance, Shadow]
Druid [Earthen Heart, Animal Companions, Stormcalling]
Elementalist [Stormcalling, Winter’s Embrace, Ardent Flame]
Dawnguard [Dawn’s Wrath, Restoring Light, Ardent Flame]2 -
Emeratis✭✭✭✭I'm going to try to avoid saying things that either already got said in this thread by others or I've said elsewhere, but I will say that the "as x class only" is only acceptable to me if it is guaranteed to be temporary and we know the date of removal or we get class change tokens on the table and like with the last racial rebalancing that happened we get several of those tokens for free. The "as x class" style balancing is kinda a dealbreaker for me and I strongly prefer option one of my suggestion, but the latter would mitigate some of my characters I've had for a decade being ruined by some poorly tacked on requirement for skills that doesn't even prevent what it's trying to prevent balance wise. I'm going to avoid saying much more because this genuinely makes me angry and I don't want to rant about it or argue, I just wanted to add +1 to very much do not want this even temporarily.
3 -
Tyrobag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lets engage in a thought exercise. This is an oversimplification, but hopefully it will make things clearer:
Lets assign each skill line a numerical value denoting its approximate power level, in this case assuming a dps build. We will use Sorcerer, Warden, and DK.
Daedric Summoning = 2
Storm Calling = 2
Dark Magic = 1
Animal Companions = 3
Green Balance = 0
Winter's Embrace = 2
Draconic Power = 2
Earthen Heart = 2
Ardent Flame on a DK = 3
Ardent Flame on anyone else = 2
DK with all base skill lines = 7
DK that wants to keep all of it's skill lines other than ardent flame, because they want Storm Calling = 6
Same DK that instead drops Earthen Heart = 7
Sorc that drops Dark Magic for Ardent Flame = 6
Warden with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame = 7
DK with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame = 8
Elementalist Build on a Sorcerer with Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame = 6
Elementalist Build on a DK with Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame = 7
Do you see the pattern yet? This type of ability is a bad thing from both ends.
If you love subclassing, it restricts the possible viable combinations, and makes it necessary for certain classes to keep one specific skill line out of their three. The problem exemplified with the DK that wanted to use Earthen Heart, Draconic Power, and Storm Calling. They kept 2 out of 3 of their skill lines, but lost the ability to be at peak power, because too much relies on Ardent Flame (but only as a DK).
If you hate subclassing, this encourages the worst parts of it. Exemplified by the DK with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame using their whip to add a 14% damage buff to their pet build, while possibly not touching any other skills in the line. Does that strike you as "class identity"? Nor is it a "meaningful tradeoff". The only thing that has any meaning if you drop it is Ardent Flame (or more specifically, Whip).
Don't even get me started on the Whip + Fatecarver builds.3 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »TLDR Im in favor of almost anything that will help rid this game of homogenization. I shouldnt be able to just transfer three sorc skill lines on my DK and be a fully kitted Sorc, much less three damage skill lines from three classes, slap on some protective jewelry and be better than all three classes at what they do.
The base requirement is absolutely necessary imo, regardless of whatever inconvenience it brings. Its a small cost to pay for balance, and it still leaves subclassing a valid option in smaller ways depending on your build, as it should be. Or at least it will when every class has this base requirement.
There will be no damage skill lines when this rework is done, Starter Class requirements are nothing short of punishment post-rework.
My community and I are not going to stick around and be punished for being creative.
Someone here is always saying they won't stick around for x reason, builds are invalidated all the time, see Dragon Knight Magma Shell solo build for Infinite Archive.
I want my OG Hrothgars back lol, I want my iron man dragon knight leaps into keeps XD
Its an mmo, the game changes and people adapt. This including the end of damage skill line, tank skill line etc being gone imo is necessary for balance. You disagree thats fine. I thought I was being punished for specializing in DK and only DK when subclass was announced and I too had to adapt or fall behind.
Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...2 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭Lets engage in a thought exercise. This is an oversimplification, but hopefully it will make things clearer:
Lets assign each skill line a numerical value denoting its approximate power level, in this case assuming a dps build. We will use Sorcerer, Warden, and DK.
Daedric Summoning = 2
Storm Calling = 2
Dark Magic = 1
Animal Companions = 3
Green Balance = 0
Winter's Embrace = 2
Draconic Power = 2
Earthen Heart = 2
Ardent Flame on a DK = 3
Ardent Flame on anyone else = 2
DK with all base skill lines = 7
DK that wants to keep all of it's skill lines other than ardent flame, because they want Storm Calling = 6
Same DK that instead drops Earthen Heart = 7
Sorc that drops Dark Magic for Ardent Flame = 6
Warden with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame = 7
DK with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame = 8
Elementalist Build on a Sorcerer with Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame = 6
Elementalist Build on a DK with Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame = 7
Do you see the pattern yet? This type of ability is a bad thing from both ends.
If you love subclassing, it restricts the possible viable combinations, and makes it necessary for certain classes to keep one specific skill line out of their three. The problem exemplified with the DK that wanted to use Earthen Heart, Draconic Power, and Storm Calling. They kept 2 out of 3 of their skill lines, but lost the ability to be at peak power, because too much relies on Ardent Flame (but only as a DK).
If you hate subclassing, this encourages the worst parts of it. Exemplified by the DK with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame using their whip to add a 14% damage buff to their pet build, while possibly not touching any other skills in the line. Does that strike you as "class identity"? Nor is it a "meaningful tradeoff". The only thing that has any meaning if you drop it is Ardent Flame (or more specifically, Whip).
Don't even get me started on the Whip + Fatecarver builds.
None of this changes the fact that if all classes have this restriction to power then subclassing will be weaker than it is now. Which is a good thing since the power gap between subclassing and pure classing is drastic. Your power level numbers are arbitrary and dont accurately represent the reality in practical ways, especially since the skill lines are also having their skills mixed up so you dont get everything you need from one skill line.Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Lets engage in a thought exercise. This is an oversimplification, but hopefully it will make things clearer:
Lets assign each skill line a numerical value denoting its approximate power level, in this case assuming a dps build. We will use Sorcerer, Warden, and DK.
Daedric Summoning = 2
Storm Calling = 2
Dark Magic = 1
Animal Companions = 3
Green Balance = 0
Winter's Embrace = 2
Draconic Power = 2
Earthen Heart = 2
Ardent Flame on a DK = 3
Ardent Flame on anyone else = 2
DK with all base skill lines = 7
DK that wants to keep all of it's skill lines other than ardent flame, because they want Storm Calling = 6
Same DK that instead drops Earthen Heart = 7
Sorc that drops Dark Magic for Ardent Flame = 6
Warden with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame = 7
DK with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame = 8
Elementalist Build on a Sorcerer with Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame = 6
Elementalist Build on a DK with Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame = 7
Do you see the pattern yet? This type of ability is a bad thing from both ends.
If you love subclassing, it restricts the possible viable combinations, and makes it necessary for certain classes to keep one specific skill line out of their three. The problem exemplified with the DK that wanted to use Earthen Heart, Draconic Power, and Storm Calling. They kept 2 out of 3 of their skill lines, but lost the ability to be at peak power, because too much relies on Ardent Flame (but only as a DK).
If you hate subclassing, this encourages the worst parts of it. Exemplified by the DK with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame using their whip to add a 14% damage buff to their pet build, while possibly not touching any other skills in the line. Does that strike you as "class identity"? Nor is it a "meaningful tradeoff". The only thing that has any meaning if you drop it is Ardent Flame (or more specifically, Whip).
Don't even get me started on the Whip + Fatecarver builds.
None of this changes the fact that if all classes have this restriction to power then subclassing will be weaker than it is now. Which is a good thing since the power gap between subclassing and pure classing is drastic. Your power level numbers are arbitrary and dont accurately represent the reality in practical ways, especially since the skill lines are also having their skills mixed up so you dont get everything you need from one skill line.
Given the glacial pace of the re-works, though, this massively shafts a class like Necro, that is both superbad and also at the very end of the process. So not only do they get to stay bad for longest but also every other class will get some "as a base X" bone tossed to them way beforehand, leaving Necro base as the most worthless base class by a huge margin.
Obviously, Dragonknights mind this less because they just got a power infusion and are now suddenly getting even more buffed by the "as a base X" format. And Dragonknight meta subclassers love it the most because they just got giga-buffed for no actual trade-off outside of the fairly trivial (for an end-game player) re-basing of their build to a different main character.
I like incentivizing keeping class lines but "as a base X" seems just about the worst possible way to implement it.Edited by YandereGirlfriend on February 5, 2026 12:49AM3 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭There's really no getting around the fact that until the reworks are done, other pure classes will be weaker. Necros are shafted only in the sense that they can't really pure class and be good at much of anything besides being tanky, but they can still subclass.
Thats true for everyone until Zos finishes the reworks. Nothing's perfect, but its still necessary to keep the base class requirement imo, or instead what will happen is every reworked class will power up subclassing and worsen the issue further.
You say its the worst, I say its literally the least they could do and the most necessary or else there's zero reason to keep making characters. Which is really bad for an mmo.Edited by BardokRedSnow on February 5, 2026 1:05AMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...2 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭And considering that warden is the next class to be worked on, is one of the most powerful classes, and it has the most overused skill line of all, animal companion, almost on every single subclass build... Im definitely ok with the base class requirement, and i am also using animal companion now.Edited by BardokRedSnow on February 5, 2026 1:04AMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...0 -
Tyrobag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Lets engage in a thought exercise. This is an oversimplification, but hopefully it will make things clearer:
Lets assign each skill line a numerical value denoting its approximate power level, in this case assuming a dps build. We will use Sorcerer, Warden, and DK.
Daedric Summoning = 2
Storm Calling = 2
Dark Magic = 1
Animal Companions = 3
Green Balance = 0
Winter's Embrace = 2
Draconic Power = 2
Earthen Heart = 2
Ardent Flame on a DK = 3
Ardent Flame on anyone else = 2
DK with all base skill lines = 7
DK that wants to keep all of it's skill lines other than ardent flame, because they want Storm Calling = 6
Same DK that instead drops Earthen Heart = 7
Sorc that drops Dark Magic for Ardent Flame = 6
Warden with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame = 7
DK with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame = 8
Elementalist Build on a Sorcerer with Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame = 6
Elementalist Build on a DK with Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame = 7
Do you see the pattern yet? This type of ability is a bad thing from both ends.
If you love subclassing, it restricts the possible viable combinations, and makes it necessary for certain classes to keep one specific skill line out of their three. The problem exemplified with the DK that wanted to use Earthen Heart, Draconic Power, and Storm Calling. They kept 2 out of 3 of their skill lines, but lost the ability to be at peak power, because too much relies on Ardent Flame (but only as a DK).
If you hate subclassing, this encourages the worst parts of it. Exemplified by the DK with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame using their whip to add a 14% damage buff to their pet build, while possibly not touching any other skills in the line. Does that strike you as "class identity"? Nor is it a "meaningful tradeoff". The only thing that has any meaning if you drop it is Ardent Flame (or more specifically, Whip).
Don't even get me started on the Whip + Fatecarver builds.
None of this changes the fact that if all classes have this restriction to power then subclassing will be weaker than it is now. Which is a good thing since the power gap between subclassing and pure classing is drastic. Your power level numbers are arbitrary and dont accurately represent the reality in practical ways, especially since the skill lines are also having their skills mixed up so you dont get everything you need from one skill line.
This is why its a thought exercise. One which you have proven wildly successful, as it revealed the flaw in your argument.
Your opinion is based on the idea of everything being as it is now, rather than how it will be at the end of the rebalance. Zos have very clearly stated that they are planning on hitting all class lines as part of the rebalance. If, in the above example, all class lines = 2 (which is the intent of the rebalance), then subclassing is not inherently better than pureclassing. In this situation all possible combinations = 6, regardless of subclassing or pureclassing. Unless you are of the opinion that subclassing should be inferior to pureclassing, in which case we are directly at odds, then you would have nothing to complain about if zos balanced all skill lines equally.Edited by Tyrobag on February 5, 2026 1:12AM3 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Lets engage in a thought exercise. This is an oversimplification, but hopefully it will make things clearer:
Lets assign each skill line a numerical value denoting its approximate power level, in this case assuming a dps build. We will use Sorcerer, Warden, and DK.
Daedric Summoning = 2
Storm Calling = 2
Dark Magic = 1
Animal Companions = 3
Green Balance = 0
Winter's Embrace = 2
Draconic Power = 2
Earthen Heart = 2
Ardent Flame on a DK = 3
Ardent Flame on anyone else = 2
DK with all base skill lines = 7
DK that wants to keep all of it's skill lines other than ardent flame, because they want Storm Calling = 6
Same DK that instead drops Earthen Heart = 7
Sorc that drops Dark Magic for Ardent Flame = 6
Warden with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame = 7
DK with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame = 8
Elementalist Build on a Sorcerer with Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame = 6
Elementalist Build on a DK with Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame = 7
Do you see the pattern yet? This type of ability is a bad thing from both ends.
If you love subclassing, it restricts the possible viable combinations, and makes it necessary for certain classes to keep one specific skill line out of their three. The problem exemplified with the DK that wanted to use Earthen Heart, Draconic Power, and Storm Calling. They kept 2 out of 3 of their skill lines, but lost the ability to be at peak power, because too much relies on Ardent Flame (but only as a DK).
If you hate subclassing, this encourages the worst parts of it. Exemplified by the DK with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame using their whip to add a 14% damage buff to their pet build, while possibly not touching any other skills in the line. Does that strike you as "class identity"? Nor is it a "meaningful tradeoff". The only thing that has any meaning if you drop it is Ardent Flame (or more specifically, Whip).
Don't even get me started on the Whip + Fatecarver builds.
None of this changes the fact that if all classes have this restriction to power then subclassing will be weaker than it is now. Which is a good thing since the power gap between subclassing and pure classing is drastic. Your power level numbers are arbitrary and dont accurately represent the reality in practical ways, especially since the skill lines are also having their skills mixed up so you dont get everything you need from one skill line.
Given the glacial pace of the re-works, though, this massively shafts a class like Necro, that is both superbad and also at the very end of the process. So not only do they get to stay bad for longest but also every other class will get some "as a base X" bone tossed to them way beforehand, leaving Necro base as the most worthless base class by a huge margin.
Obviously, Dragonknights mind this less because they just got a power infusion and are now suddenly getting even more buffed by the "as a base X" format. And Dragonknight meta subclassers love it the most because they just got giga-buffed for no actual trade-off outside of the fairly trivial (for an end-game player) re-basing of their build to a different main character.
I like incentivizing keeping class lines but "as a base X" seems just about the worst possible way to implement it.
Part of reason for the slow change is each class right now is getting a more in depth overhaul there are not enough devs to do every class at once. Plus if every class was able to be done at once not every class would get a fair test to their individual changes. Also the devs have stated a class may be moved up if necessary. That’s not to say they will stick with one class per pts they might do 2 at a time if those classes don’t need as much work.1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Lets engage in a thought exercise. This is an oversimplification, but hopefully it will make things clearer:
Lets assign each skill line a numerical value denoting its approximate power level, in this case assuming a dps build. We will use Sorcerer, Warden, and DK.
Daedric Summoning = 2
Storm Calling = 2
Dark Magic = 1
Animal Companions = 3
Green Balance = 0
Winter's Embrace = 2
Draconic Power = 2
Earthen Heart = 2
Ardent Flame on a DK = 3
Ardent Flame on anyone else = 2
DK with all base skill lines = 7
DK that wants to keep all of it's skill lines other than ardent flame, because they want Storm Calling = 6
Same DK that instead drops Earthen Heart = 7
Sorc that drops Dark Magic for Ardent Flame = 6
Warden with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame = 7
DK with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame = 8
Elementalist Build on a Sorcerer with Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame = 6
Elementalist Build on a DK with Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame = 7
Do you see the pattern yet? This type of ability is a bad thing from both ends.
If you love subclassing, it restricts the possible viable combinations, and makes it necessary for certain classes to keep one specific skill line out of their three. The problem exemplified with the DK that wanted to use Earthen Heart, Draconic Power, and Storm Calling. They kept 2 out of 3 of their skill lines, but lost the ability to be at peak power, because too much relies on Ardent Flame (but only as a DK).
If you hate subclassing, this encourages the worst parts of it. Exemplified by the DK with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame using their whip to add a 14% damage buff to their pet build, while possibly not touching any other skills in the line. Does that strike you as "class identity"? Nor is it a "meaningful tradeoff". The only thing that has any meaning if you drop it is Ardent Flame (or more specifically, Whip).
Don't even get me started on the Whip + Fatecarver builds.
None of this changes the fact that if all classes have this restriction to power then subclassing will be weaker than it is now. Which is a good thing since the power gap between subclassing and pure classing is drastic. Your power level numbers are arbitrary and dont accurately represent the reality in practical ways, especially since the skill lines are also having their skills mixed up so you dont get everything you need from one skill line.
Given the glacial pace of the re-works, though, this massively shafts a class like Necro, that is both superbad and also at the very end of the process. So not only do they get to stay bad for longest but also every other class will get some "as a base X" bone tossed to them way beforehand, leaving Necro base as the most worthless base class by a huge margin.
Obviously, Dragonknights mind this less because they just got a power infusion and are now suddenly getting even more buffed by the "as a base X" format. And Dragonknight meta subclassers love it the most because they just got giga-buffed for no actual trade-off outside of the fairly trivial (for an end-game player) re-basing of their build to a different main character.
I like incentivizing keeping class lines but "as a base X" seems just about the worst possible way to implement it.
Part of reason for the slow change is each class right now is getting a more in depth overhaul there are not enough devs to do every class at once. Plus if every class was able to be done at once not every class would get a fair test to their individual changes. Also the devs have stated a class may be moved up if necessary. That’s not to say they will stick with one class per pts they might do 2 at a time if those classes don’t need as much work.
Right, I understand that limitation and I would definitely prefer that they continue to do a good job slowly than to rush it and mess things up.
But it's also easy to point out that Dragonknight mains are the least unhappy about this because they are the first ones to benefit and also benefit the longest.
It wouldn't be so bad if all of the weakest classes were front-loaded but that's also not what is happening. So Necros are stuck being a dead class for basically the next two years. Which definitely sucks if you are a Necro appreciator.
I am simply not sure what "must be X class" really brings to the table. It still allows existing meta subclassing configurations with no downside and then it creates this weird "haves and have-nots" situation with the later classes like Necro.
The better solution would be to power-up abilities or lines as you stack more class lines (which only base classes can even do...) and/or build in synergies between passives and skills between class lines to more elegantly mechanically incentivize a player for sticking with most of their class lines and to accentuate the loss if you do not.
Simply saying "must be X class" is just the sort of laziest way to achieve what most of the folk in the thread want - a better balance between pure (or mostly pure) classes and full subclassing.1 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Lets engage in a thought exercise. This is an oversimplification, but hopefully it will make things clearer:
Lets assign each skill line a numerical value denoting its approximate power level, in this case assuming a dps build. We will use Sorcerer, Warden, and DK.
Daedric Summoning = 2
Storm Calling = 2
Dark Magic = 1
Animal Companions = 3
Green Balance = 0
Winter's Embrace = 2
Draconic Power = 2
Earthen Heart = 2
Ardent Flame on a DK = 3
Ardent Flame on anyone else = 2
DK with all base skill lines = 7
DK that wants to keep all of it's skill lines other than ardent flame, because they want Storm Calling = 6
Same DK that instead drops Earthen Heart = 7
Sorc that drops Dark Magic for Ardent Flame = 6
Warden with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame = 7
DK with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame = 8
Elementalist Build on a Sorcerer with Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame = 6
Elementalist Build on a DK with Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame = 7
Do you see the pattern yet? This type of ability is a bad thing from both ends.
If you love subclassing, it restricts the possible viable combinations, and makes it necessary for certain classes to keep one specific skill line out of their three. The problem exemplified with the DK that wanted to use Earthen Heart, Draconic Power, and Storm Calling. They kept 2 out of 3 of their skill lines, but lost the ability to be at peak power, because too much relies on Ardent Flame (but only as a DK).
If you hate subclassing, this encourages the worst parts of it. Exemplified by the DK with Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Ardent Flame using their whip to add a 14% damage buff to their pet build, while possibly not touching any other skills in the line. Does that strike you as "class identity"? Nor is it a "meaningful tradeoff". The only thing that has any meaning if you drop it is Ardent Flame (or more specifically, Whip).
Don't even get me started on the Whip + Fatecarver builds.
None of this changes the fact that if all classes have this restriction to power then subclassing will be weaker than it is now. Which is a good thing since the power gap between subclassing and pure classing is drastic. Your power level numbers are arbitrary and dont accurately represent the reality in practical ways, especially since the skill lines are also having their skills mixed up so you dont get everything you need from one skill line.
This is why its a thought exercise. One which you have proven wildly successful, as it revealed the flaw in your argument.
Your opinion is based on the idea of everything being as it is now, rather than how it will be at the end of the rebalance. Zos have very clearly stated that they are planning on hitting all class lines as part of the rebalance. If, in the above example, all class lines = 2 (which is the intent of the rebalance), then subclassing is not inherently better than pureclassing. In this situation all possible combinations = 6, regardless of subclassing or pureclassing. Unless you are of the opinion that subclassing should be inferior to pureclassing, in which case we are directly at odds, then you would have nothing to complain about if zos balanced all skill lines equally.
Lol Is this reddit
its actually the opposite, my opinion is based on both what things are like now and what they'll be like when the refresh is finished, others here are based on the inbetween which is not my concern because subclassing is the norm not pure classing.
Your thought exercise is pointless because it doesnt reflect past present or future. Its no different than any other hypothetical because its using arbitrary values not reflecting any reality.
Pointless exercise is pointless, moving on.
Edited by BardokRedSnow on February 5, 2026 2:08AMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...1 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
✭
If I just picked this game up last year, I'd be worried that my new favorite game was already considered stale and dying, so I'd be very happy to see the devs investing like this.If you just picked up this game last yearPC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP2 -
Thumbless_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thumbless_Bot wrote: »I see two potential impacts here.
1. You can't use another class' scribed affix (i think) class skill like charm.
2. You can't get this buff if you normally run two lines from another class, like two necro lines. I run two warden lines so I guess I am out of luck.
This doesnt seem like that big of a deal to me but maybe I am missing something.
How is it a big deal? Idk? Maybe for the other 99% of possible Class combinations that do not parse higher than current DK pre-patch?
They all just get squeezed down further to prop up one more option?
You don’t build diversity by pushing out other options.
I dont understand this. There are only two limitations that I see above and that does not exclude 99% of class combinations. There are seven classes and you are limited to not running two lines from six of them, so 18 permutationd. Also you must run this dk line and cam do that as a dk to get scribing affix. There are over a thousand class combinations of 3 skill lines and if you assume you always select ardent flame there are almost 200 combinations... minus 18. So you're options when running ardent flame are reduced by 9%, not 99.Edited by Thumbless_Bot on February 5, 2026 4:01PM1 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭Say they do "as a base class" for getting full damage on spec bow and shalks. Since you have to choose one or the other, it becomes impossible for this combo to one shot in PvP. Make the unblockable stun on jav "as a base Templar" and that eliminates a few more one shot headaches. Now nobody combines Warden/Blade/Plar unless it's personally fun for them.
And shalks is another fits in every build skill that absolutely should be limited in this way, its ridiculously good. I had to go back for this because people are only thinking about short term how this affects them when wanting the new shiny DK toys, but for people in pvp and not inside a ball, they know how powerful shalks is on these sorc/den/assassins or sorc/den/plars.
Even for my current build as dk/den/plar, shalks overperforms. Its just one example but a really good one. If everyone can easily use at no cost the most effective bursty skills from your class despite not fully kitting into it, there's no purpose to pure classing.Edited by BardokRedSnow on February 5, 2026 4:24PMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...0 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭I support what ever gives the base class more identity, pure classes more power and ultimately more options.
But you make it sound like as base class DK, I could still subclass, but also benefit from my baseclass bonus?
This I would not support because it makes a subclassing DK suddenly a better DK than pure classing again.
Yes and no. What it means is a DK base using whip will use it better than say a NB base with dk subclass. What I’m trying to point out is if they apply this to at least 1 skill in every class skill line we go from class combination abc being a thing to now subclass abc does not work the same as subclass bca or cab. I’d even like to seem them apply this in a way where u can alter a dk skill based on what ur base class is for example on searing claw if base class is x alters the damage type of the skill. This would increase build diversity exponentially while also making base class choice an important decision when theory crafting a build.
I think DK base using whip being better than a NB base using whip is exactly what we want for more class identity.
The nuance is, will a DK subclass whip be better than a DK pureclass whip for me personally. I would like the pureclass whip to have batter base modifiers in that case, maybe based on scaling per skill line. Or a mastery buff for using only pure class. Anyway, maybe this will balance in the long run as you say, but overall this is what we asked for. Selfish as it may sound, I don't care how much power subclassers lose and are excluded from bonuses otherwise
If they apply this to at least 1 skill from every class line we will have substantially more build diversity while likely eliminating some of the pain points of class combination xyz being the go to option
What is this talk about these restrictions balancing Subclassing builds?
Have you guys missed the plot entirely?
Look at Dragonknight, they spread all of their power around to all three lines… there will be no DPS lines, no Healer ones, nor Tank lines.
That alone will fix the problem of running three of the same role-specific lines. We do not need weird uncalled for restrictions to skills.
Have you not read thru my other comments how what your calling restrictive isn’t necessarily as restrictive as you say. Applying a base class “restriction” to every skill line will actually create build diversity in the sense you choose dk nightblade Templar and say I choose Templar nightblade dk we will not perform the exact same if we use the same skills. If every class has something like this means your base class choice no matters and isn’t just an abitrary decision. Also where do you get my comment talking about subclassing balance. It doesn’t state that at all I’m talking build diversity and base class choice now being an important decision apart from certain sets or scribing skills.
The last thing this game needs, is more complicated conditional requirements that will only prove to frustrate players.
Needing to be the base class to use said class skills fully isnt overcomplicated, its been the default for the game since beta lol, its subclassing that's the outlier. This is a return to normalcy and some semblance of balance.Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...3 -
mav1234✭✭✭✭✭I'm hugely in favor of the major buffs/benefits (not referring to in game buffs but in terms of class reworks) to be accessible primarily as a base class. In fact, every skill line should have such circumstances. And it gives a reason to actually play different characters differently.
This allows class definition and fights homogenization as if you really want a skill in another line, as will definitely still occur, you need to consider carefully what you're losing and gaining. Subclassing becomes truly a subclass, where you sacrifice part of your class to gain a benefit in how you want to play, and not just a mix and match of whatever skill lines give you the highest returns. But if you want all of what another class offers as a core identity, you go with that class.
And heck, why not make it more than just damage? Imagine if streak distance was based on sorcerer base class, if number of stacks needed to fire night blade bow proc was based on base class, if length of some buffs was based on base class... Lots of options that reduce effectiveness for subclasses while keeping the strength of abilities for base classes.4 -
mav1234✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Needing to be the base class to use said class skills fully isnt overcomplicated, its been the default for the game since beta lol, its subclassing that's the outlier. This is a return to normalcy and some semblance of balance.
It is also highly intuitive for MMORPG players that classes have access to different skills / abilities anyway... and if you take some line from another class and you get a warning "Subclassing skills may be less effective than for a base class user" it'd be understandable.
1 -
Radiate77✭✭✭✭✭
✭Negativity is all anyone talks about, and when you have a few people repeatedly shouting “Subclassing is bad” and a studio capitulating to them, it’s not surprising to see even more people slide into a negative opinion on it.
They should just roll it back now, instead of gradually over time, as the people who play for the creativity that ESO allows will have already moved on.
Seeing ZOS allow people to spread hysteria on my favorite system is honestly the most infuriating thing I’ve ever seen in regards to a gaming studio.Edited by Radiate77 on February 5, 2026 8:18PMDragon Priest [Restoring Light, Draconic Power, Grave Lord]
Death Knight [Grave Lord, Winter’s Embrace, Siphoning]
Pyromancer [Ardent Flame, Dawn’s Wrath, Earthen Heart]
Summoner [Living Death, Grave Lord, Daedric Summoning]
Ranger [Animal Companions, Green Balance, Shadow]
Druid [Earthen Heart, Animal Companions, Stormcalling]
Elementalist [Stormcalling, Winter’s Embrace, Ardent Flame]
Dawnguard [Dawn’s Wrath, Restoring Light, Ardent Flame]1 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭Negativity is all anyone talks about, and when you have a few people repeatedly shouting “Subclassing is bad” and a studio capitulating to them, it’s not surprising to see even more people slide into a negative opinion on it.
They should just roll it back now, instead of gradually over time, as the people who play for the creativity that ESO allows will have already moved on.
Seeing ZOS allow people to spread hysteria on my favorite system is honestly the most infuriating thing I’ve ever seen in regards to a gaming studio.
Allowing fans to voice their opinion isn’t spreading hysteria and the day Zos takes action to prevent us from doing so from an American based company is the day I stop playing entirely.
Zos sent surveys to the community and decided themselves that subclassing as it was, was rushed and a mistake. It’s far from the first time they’ve nerfed something, Zos loves nerfing lol. What even are we talking about rn you’re a DK fan. DK has historically been nerfed the most.
Rn Zos has been communicating with us the most they ever really have over changes, taking tons of feedback. Sometimes to have something like that, which is undeniably good, you have to accept you might get a change the majority want that you think is bad.
When molten whip lost the WD for instance I definitely complained but was prepared to adapt if that wasn’t addressed. It was addressed but corrosive kept the ult gen nerf and doubled the damage from 3 to 6 percent capped when activated, twice as much as live right now.
Not everyone’s getting what they want, but this whole initiative started because so many fans left because of subclassing not having a cost and making the game too homogenized. Of course they’re going to address it.
There’s no guarantee this base requirement will even stay, seems like the community is 50/50 on it.
I draw the line tho at talks of the community being “allowed” to complain about what they dislike.Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...2 -
Radiate77✭✭✭✭✭
✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »I draw the line tho at talks of the community being “allowed” to complain about what they dislike.
Nobody is saying you should be silenced for having an opinion, but when you have people who are blatantly lying about a system, or misconstruing it with malice, yeah as a community manager, your job would be to correct people, not moderate them.
I have seen way too many comments in this thread alone, that are lost somewhere between past, present, and future and are completely misleading.Edited by Radiate77 on February 5, 2026 10:27PMDragon Priest [Restoring Light, Draconic Power, Grave Lord]
Death Knight [Grave Lord, Winter’s Embrace, Siphoning]
Pyromancer [Ardent Flame, Dawn’s Wrath, Earthen Heart]
Summoner [Living Death, Grave Lord, Daedric Summoning]
Ranger [Animal Companions, Green Balance, Shadow]
Druid [Earthen Heart, Animal Companions, Stormcalling]
Elementalist [Stormcalling, Winter’s Embrace, Ardent Flame]
Dawnguard [Dawn’s Wrath, Restoring Light, Ardent Flame]2 -
Darkdex✭✭✭Why can't the passive effect be either:- Increasing in strength as more DK skill lines are equipped by the character.
- Only available if you have 2 or 3 DK skill lines equipped.
We don't need more "Let me change base class and still use the same subclassing combo since it's optimal". This is AGAINST the objective of increasing the power level of base classes while maintaining subclassing in check.
This is going to end in situations where all DDs in group are running basically the same setup and there is no freedom on the base class selection. For example, my favorite character is base X and my group was organized around one of the skill lines of this X class, thus i can use my fav char no problem. With this change, even if the group setup is still the same, the existence passive effects like this one that become "the best choice" only have the effect of forcing the change of the character (base class) while playing the same stuff. How is this going to improve the experience even for the people that enjoy subclassing? It adds a (in essence) void restriction to subclassing instead of an incentive to pure-class play.1