Misleading Patch Notes: 11.3.3

Tyrobag · February 3

Patch notes 11.3.3 states:
Lava Whip

Flame Lash: This morph now grants 7% damage done, doubling against monsters, for 45s after spending all stacks of Power Lash, rather than granting 12% damage done to monsters for 30s after gaining any stacks of Power Lash. The healing from both versions now always activates, rather than requiring you to deal damage.
Molten Whip: Seething Fury now grants 5% damage done to monsters and 2% damage done to players per stack, rather than only grating 5% damage done to monsters per stack. Seething Fury is no longer deactivated while Engulfing Dragonfire is slotted.

Yet when you go to the actual ability on the PTS it clearly states that, despite it being repeatedly pointed out that its a horrible idea that is blatantly detrimental to class balance, the % buffs only apply if your base class is Dragonknight.

The patch notes are worded in such a way as to imply that the buffs were changed to properly apply regardless of base class. Unless the in game description wasn't properly updated, this is not the case and the ability is still "balanced" to be a complete mockery of the concept of "play the way you want".

Now you know.

Radiate77 · February 3

While trying to find the middle ground might work in other areas of the game, when it comes to Subclassing, there is no middle ground.

People are on completely opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to this, you have your Elder Scrolls players, and then you have your MMO Andy’s.

There is but one reality… everything has to be competitive, either for the 7 starter classes accompanying a rollback of Subclassing, or for every Class irregardless of whether you decide to Subclass.

Adding arbitrary rules like “when playing a Dragonknight” is not enough for people who HATE the system, and it is completely against what those of us who love the freedom enjoy about Subclassing.

Radiate77 · February 3

An almost perfect patch, ruined by Class restriction and unchanged Skill Scrolls.

imPDA · February 3

Tyrobag wrote: »

the % buffs only apply if your base class is Dragonknight.

If you can test in on PTS and show the difference, it will be helpful. If it is description problem, it is one thing, and if it is in fact works only with base class DK, then it is completely different.

YandereGirlfriend · February 4

"As a base Dragonknight" (or really any class) is definitely NOT the way forward.

Since it does nothing to actually incentivize pure-classing. If a skill line is good and it has that stipulation then you simply roll your main over to that class and use the same skill lines. So easy to circumvent.

The infinitely better method would be to have abilities power-up as you add more of the same class skill lines to them. That automatically implies base-classing as the class because you otherwise cannot stack 2 or 3 of the same class lines together. It also creates actual exclusions to simply copypasta'ing the meta choices, which is the true goal and outcome that we want.

BattleAxe · February 4

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

"As a base Dragonknight" (or really any class) is definitely NOT the way forward.

Since it does nothing to actually incentivize pure-classing. If a skill line is good and it has that stipulation then you simply roll your main over to that class and use the same skill lines. So easy to circumvent.

The infinitely better method would be to have abilities power-up as you add more of the same class skill lines to them. That automatically implies base-classing as the class because you otherwise cannot stack 2 or 3 of the same class lines together. It also creates actual exclusions to simply copypasta'ing the meta choices, which is the true goal and outcome that we want.

It would create a much wider variety in builds when you think about it. A dk necro arc would not function the same as a necro dk arc. So in a sense it could be a good thing and make base class choice another important decision when theory crafting

BardokRedSnow · February 4

BattleAxe wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

"As a base Dragonknight" (or really any class) is definitely NOT the way forward.

Since it does nothing to actually incentivize pure-classing. If a skill line is good and it has that stipulation then you simply roll your main over to that class and use the same skill lines. So easy to circumvent.

The infinitely better method would be to have abilities power-up as you add more of the same class skill lines to them. That automatically implies base-classing as the class because you otherwise cannot stack 2 or 3 of the same class lines together. It also creates actual exclusions to simply copypasta'ing the meta choices, which is the true goal and outcome that we want.

It would create a much wider variety in builds when you think about it. A dk necro arc would not function the same as a necro dk arc. So in a sense it could be a good thing and make base class choice another important decision when theory crafting

I agree with this, its the same as how to use that awful charm script you need to be a warden a base. At least now to have certain effects and buffs used from a class you have to actually invest in building up and leveling that class on a dedicated character not just the skill lines.

This is how it should be. Which means in the future not everyone subclassing will be able to throw on storm calling and instantly be on the same level as someone maining a sorc. Thats actually very important and I hope this change stays.

Radiate77 · February 4

Exactly my point, I bring up how restrictive this change is and you have polar opposite over here @BardokRedSnow talking about how great of an idea it is.

This is not a great idea, and further changes like these only signal a walk-back of Subclassing, in which case just rip the bandaid off.

Go ahead and sacrifice the trust of the majority to half-appease the minority, I’ve heard that works wonders for products.

BardokRedSnow · February 4

I dont understand the problem tbh, I enjoyed subclassing also even though I hated it at first, but I've always said I wanted mastery of dragon knight to feel as such. How can you feel specialized as a DK if someone else can just load up your two skill lines, and throw on something else like animal companion and be on equal footing or better.

Increasing damage depending on how many dk skills youre using is a good start sure, but its not enough alone to add an actual check and balance to subclassing. Its biggest problem was that there was no cost to subclassing. Now that you'll actually lose something meaningful, and, theres something you cant easily gain just from taking the class skill line yourself, there will actually be meaning again to having leveled a class.

You're talking about whats good or bad for an MMO, well making it meaningless to make multiple characters on multiple different classes aside from class scripts which arent even that good besides broken charm, is definitely not good for the game.

If all classes have certain buffs you can only get from having mained that class, it will bring the balance we've asked for.

Thumbless_Bot · February 4

I see two potential impacts here.

1. You can't use another class' scribed affix (i think) class skill like charm.

2. You can't get this buff if you normally run two lines from another class, like two necro lines. I run two warden lines so I guess I am out of luck.

This doesnt seem like that big of a deal to me but maybe I am missing something.

Radiate77 · February 4

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

I see two potential impacts here.

1. You can't use another class' scribed affix (i think) class skill like charm.

2. You can't get this buff if you normally run two lines from another class, like two necro lines. I run two warden lines so I guess I am out of luck.

This doesnt seem like that big of a deal to me but maybe I am missing something.

How is it a big deal? Idk? Maybe for the other 99% of possible Class combinations that do not parse higher than current DK pre-patch?

They all just get squeezed down further to prop up one more option?

You don’t build diversity by pushing out other options.

BardokRedSnow · February 4

Radiate77 wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

I see two potential impacts here.

1. You can't use another class' scribed affix (i think) class skill like charm.

2. You can't get this buff if you normally run two lines from another class, like two necro lines. I run two warden lines so I guess I am out of luck.

This doesnt seem like that big of a deal to me but maybe I am missing something.

How is it a big deal? Idk? Maybe for the other 99% of possible Class combinations that do not parse higher than current DK pre-patch?

They all just get squeezed down further to prop up one more option?

You don’t build diversity by pushing out other options.

All they gotta do is level up a DK to 50, that's trivial nowadays. An inconvenience but not an impossible insurmountable wall.

And besides, DK is far from top notch for dps, the only thing you lose out on is building up whip stacks to power up your beam, which some think might become the new meta, but if you weren't hitting a 100k parse before, you probably weren't gonna with this now either.

BardokRedSnow · February 4

The only balancing problem pve has is that beam builds are boring and people want more variety. Making each class have class specific buffs at base will actually fix that once all of them roll out.

MashmalloMan · February 4

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I dont understand the problem tbh, I enjoyed subclassing also even though I hated it at first, but I've always said I wanted mastery of dragon knight to feel as such. How can you feel specialized as a DK if someone else can just load up your two skill lines, and throw on something else like animal companion and be on equal footing or better.

You can't "load up two skill lines" with subclassing since it's reserved to base classes so it seems you're specifically talking about players who create an alt to utilize base class features, that then subclass out their 3rd or 2nd line. In your scenario, how exactly does this whip exclusive bonus solve your goal?

The base DK requirement bonus only applies to Ardent Flame. Earthen Heart and Draconic Power do not have an equivilant. If a player uses Ardent Flame, then subclasses the other two out, they still have access to what you consider "mastery" despite not even using 66% of what makes a "Dragonknight".

Imagine for a second that subclassing launched with ESO in 2014 and the 7 base classes we know today were simply found in the Skill Guide system. ZOS took a Flame, Dragon, and Earth line, tossed them together, and called it "Dragonknight". Now if you removed 2/3 of it, would you still call that a Dragonknight? With this perspective, I wouldn't, it becomes something else.

This same concept is basically what players do now with subclassing, take Daedric Summoning, Grave Lord, and Animal Companions, you have some type of summoner/zoo build. With 21 lines, there is many potential "RP" combinations to suit the class fantasies people care about. This will only increase with time as more classes, skill styles, and customization options appear with the games life cycle.

Now think about why ZOS is even doing the class refreshes. The majority of complaints are that subclassing has eclipsed pureclassing. It was no longer competitive to play the class you fell in love with 10+ years ago, many felt forced to adapt regardless of if they agreed or not because this is an MMO, majority of content is played with others and we don't want to drag others down even if we're fine with being "suboptimal".

Under that context, subclassing vs pureclassing, how does this whip bonus amplify and promote a Dragonknight to stick with their Earthen Heart and Draconic Power skill lines, in addition to Ardent Flame? The answer is, it doesn't. It solves nothing. So it's a failure on their main contextual objective.

My main point is, majority of us are actually on the same page, subclassing can be fun, but we don't want it to be the only competitive option. I don't need subclassing to be nerfed directly by some arbitrary "if you use x lines, you get -x debuff", and I also don't need the reverse that says "if you play DK, you get +x" on whip. The proper way to amplify pureclassing while not directly nerfing subclassing has always been to make comboing the 3 skill lines together, advantagous. To this effect, they kinda failed because they almost purely relied on the whole kit being flame/dot based, instead of actually building in combos.

For example, I was expecting Avalanche to be a class wide passive that rewarded the player for using different skills across the class. Eg. it could stack higher and harder, but now Whip gives a stack, Dragonfire gives a stack, etc. Instead, they only gave 1 skill a way to gain stacks, and it's from the line the passive originates in. The Burn passive is the closest they got to "comboing", and then they just quit there. Frankly I think it's a brilliant archetype for how passives should be. Give a base minimum bonus that is then amplified by the amount of DK skills slotted. If Draconic and Earthen had this too, it would of been chefs kiss.

Instead; they slapped a massive, obscenely powerful bonus on whip last second as a bandaid to keep them relevant in a patch where they ultimately kinda failed, and somehow are getting praise for it. This is just as dumb as the Warden's staff passive on Winter's Revenge giving +30% damage when it doesn't even specifiy Ice Staff defeating its intended purpose. Back bar a Flame Staff, win/win. Main class DK, subclass out Draconic/Earthen, win/win.

All this said, it's not a big deal because they already said the whip bonus is inflated in the short term to help them perform better while other classes are reworked, I just hope this isn't the type of road they go down because there is more intuitive ways to promote pureclassing than locking out entire base skill effects.

Radiate77 · February 4

MashmalloMan wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I dont understand the problem tbh, I enjoyed subclassing also even though I hated it at first, but I've always said I wanted mastery of dragon knight to feel as such. How can you feel specialized as a DK if someone else can just load up your two skill lines, and throw on something else like animal companion and be on equal footing or better.

You can't "load up two skill lines" with subclassing since it's reserved to base classes so it seems you're specifically talking about players who create an alt to utilize base class features, that then subclass out their 3rd or 2nd line. In your scenario, how exactly does this whip exclusive bonus solve your goal?

The base DK requirement bonus only applies to Ardent Flame. Earthen Heart and Draconic Power do not have an equivilant. If a player uses Ardent Flame, then subclasses the other two out, they still have access to what you consider "mastery" despite not even using 66% of what makes a "Dragonknight".

Imagine for a second that subclassing launched with ESO in 2014 and the 7 base classes we know today were simply found in the Skill Guide system. ZOS took a Flame, Dragon, and Earth line, tossed them together, and called it "Dragonknight". Now if you removed 2/3 of it, would you still call that a Dragonknight? With this perspective, I wouldn't, it becomes something else.

This same concept is basically what players do now with subclassing, take Daedric Summoning, Grave Lord, and Animal Companions, you have some type of summoner/zoo build. With 21 lines, there is many potential "RP" combinations to suit the class fantasies people care about. This will only increase with time as more classes, skill styles, and customization options appear with the games life cycle.

Now think about why ZOS is even doing the class refreshes. The majority of complaints are that subclassing has eclipsed pureclassing. It was no longer competitive to play the class you fell in love with 10+ years ago, many felt forced to adapt regardless of if they agreed or not because this is an MMO, majority of content is played with others and we don't want to drag others down even if we're fine with being "suboptimal".

Under that context, subclassing vs pureclassing, how does this whip bonus amplify and promote a Dragonknight to stick with their Earthen Heart and Draconic Power skill lines, in addition to Ardent Flame? The answer is, it doesn't. It solves nothing. So it's a failure on their main contextual objective.

My main point is, majority of us are actually on the same page, subclassing can be fun, but we don't want it to be the only competitive option. I don't need subclassing to be nerfed directly by some arbitrary "if you use x lines, you get -x debuff", and I also don't need the reverse that says "if you play DK, you get +x" on whip. The proper way to amplify pureclassing while not directly nerfing subclassing has always been to make comboing the 3 skill lines together, advantagous. To this effect, they kinda failed because they almost purely relied on the whole kit being flame/dot based, instead of actually building in combos.

For example, I was expecting Avalanche to be a class wide passive that rewarded the player for using different skills across the class. Eg. it could stack higher and harder, but now Whip gives a stack, Dragonfire gives a stack, etc. Instead, they only gave 1 skill a way to gain stacks, and it's from the line the passive originates in. The Burn passive is the closest they got to "comboing", and then they just quit there. Frankly I think it's a brilliant archetype for how passives should be. Give a base minimum bonus that is then amplified by the amount of DK skills slotted. If Draconic and Earthen had this too, it would of been chefs kiss.

Instead; they slapped a massive, obscenely powerful bonus on whip last second as a bandaid to keep them relevant in a patch where they ultimately kinda failed, and somehow are getting praise for it. This is just as dumb as the Warden's staff passive on Winter's Revenge giving +30% damage when it doesn't even specifiy Ice Staff defeating its intended purpose. Back bar a Flame Staff, win/win. Main class DK, subclass out Draconic/Earthen, win/win.

All this said, it's not a big deal because they already said the whip bonus is inflated in the short term to help them perform better while other classes are reworked, I just hope this isn't the type of road they go down because there is more intuitive ways to promote pureclassing than locking out entire base skill effects.

Thanks for reiterating.

Honestly I wouldn’t even mind over-arching passives for when you combo specific lines to make a class, but only under the context that we wouldn’t exclusively be doing this for the base 7.

I would love if different combinations got support, if every combination got a Class name, if we started seeing mythics and Class Sets designed for let’s say a Druid, or a Ranger ect…

But in order to get there, ZOS needs to embrace Subclassing, not walk it back each patch.

Callosum · February 4

Synergies between skill-line passives feel like the right direction to me. One of the most interesting ways to encourage pure class combinations without having to punish subclassing. Strong, inherent synergies between the three base-class skill lines would really help reinforce class identity. That said, I’m not opposed to cross-class synergies either. Those could be a great way to highlight or even define a “new” hybrid class concept.

This might be a bold idea, but I’d love to see seasonal subclass passives that rotate each season. That kind of system could encourage more niche or role-playing-focused builds and keep the meta feeling fresh. For example, one season could heavily favor an elementalist build, while another might emphasize a druid or summoner.

xylena · February 4

The "as a base DK" mechanic will make a lot more sense when all the classes are finished. If done properly, it'll efficiently take care of nearly every busted subclass combo.

Warframe does this with their version of subclassing, which seems to me a lot more balanced than that of ESO, despite Warframe being a power fantasy PvE horde shooter. The most powerful subclass skills are only allowed to be full strength on their original class, but most of these are well balanced so that the nerfed subclass version still sees significant play.

Say they do "as a base class" for getting full damage on spec bow and shalks. Since you have to choose one or the other, it becomes impossible for this combo to one shot in PvP. Make the unblockable stun on jav "as a base Templar" and that eliminates a few more one shot headaches. Now nobody combines Warden/Blade/Plar unless it's personally fun for them.

They should do this with certain passives too, especially Assassination.

Callosum · February 4

xylena wrote: »

The "as a base DK" mechanic will make a lot more sense when all the classes are finished. If done properly, it'll efficiently take care of nearly every busted subclass combo.

Warframe does this with their version of subclassing, which seems to me a lot more balanced than that of ESO, despite Warframe being a power fantasy PvE horde shooter. The most powerful subclass skills are only allowed to be full strength on their original class, but most of these are well balanced so that the nerfed subclass version still sees significant play.

Say they do "as a base class" for getting full damage on spec bow and shalks. Since you have to choose one or the other, it becomes impossible for this combo to one shot in PvP. Make the unblockable stun on jav "as a base Templar" and that eliminates a few more one shot headaches. Now nobody combines Warden/Blade/Plar unless it's personally fun for them.

They should do this with certain passives too, especially Assassination.

I definitely agree with you on this. I’m also not opposed to the idea of certain mechanics being restricted to the base class. It allows each class to have its own defining “thing” that can be a bit overtuned without forcing blanket nerfs because everyone can simply stack all the strongest class-defining tools together. Having a few skills that are intentionally a bit over the top because they’re base-class–restricted gives each class something truly distinctive and exciting, without breaking overall balance. Arcanist beam is another one where some of the power should be in the base-class–restricted list in terms of PVE.

I think you are right that i will make more sense when class are finished.

Yudo · February 4

I support what ever gives the base class more identity, pure classes more power and ultimately more options.

But you make it sound like as base class DK, I could still subclass, but also benefit from my baseclass bonus?
This I would not support because it makes a subclassing DK suddenly a better DK than pure classing again.

Callosum · February 4

Yudo wrote: »

This I would not support because it makes a subclassing DK suddenly a better DK than pure classing again.

I think this is mostly an issue right now because other classes don’t have meaningful base-class restrictions. Without those (or some kind of loss in class skill-line synergy) subclassing naturally ends up outperforming pure classing instead of complementing it.

BattleAxe · February 4

Yudo wrote: »

I support what ever gives the base class more identity, pure classes more power and ultimately more options.

But you make it sound like as base class DK, I could still subclass, but also benefit from my baseclass bonus?
This I would not support because it makes a subclassing DK suddenly a better DK than pure classing again.

Yes and no. What it means is a DK base using whip will use it better than say a NB base with dk subclass. What I’m trying to point out is if they apply this to at least 1 skill in every class skill line we go from class combination abc being a thing to now subclass abc does not work the same as subclass bca or cab. I’d even like to seem them apply this in a way where u can alter a dk skill based on what ur base class is for example on searing claw if base class is x alters the damage type of the skill. This would increase build diversity exponentially while also making base class choice an important decision when theory crafting a build.

Yudo · February 4

BattleAxe wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

I support what ever gives the base class more identity, pure classes more power and ultimately more options.

But you make it sound like as base class DK, I could still subclass, but also benefit from my baseclass bonus?
This I would not support because it makes a subclassing DK suddenly a better DK than pure classing again.

Yes and no. What it means is a DK base using whip will use it better than say a NB base with dk subclass. What I’m trying to point out is if they apply this to at least 1 skill in every class skill line we go from class combination abc being a thing to now subclass abc does not work the same as subclass bca or cab. I’d even like to seem them apply this in a way where u can alter a dk skill based on what ur base class is for example on searing claw if base class is x alters the damage type of the skill. This would increase build diversity exponentially while also making base class choice an important decision when theory crafting a build.

I think DK base using whip being better than a NB base using whip is exactly what we want for more class identity.
The nuance is, will a DK subclass whip be better than a DK pureclass whip for me personally. I would like the pureclass whip to have batter base modifiers in that case, maybe based on scaling per skill line. Or a mastery buff for using only pure class. Anyway, maybe this will balance in the long run as you say, but overall this is what we asked for. Selfish as it may sound, I don't care how much power subclassers lose and are excluded from bonuses otherwise

BattleAxe · February 4

Yudo wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

I support what ever gives the base class more identity, pure classes more power and ultimately more options.

But you make it sound like as base class DK, I could still subclass, but also benefit from my baseclass bonus?
This I would not support because it makes a subclassing DK suddenly a better DK than pure classing again.

Yes and no. What it means is a DK base using whip will use it better than say a NB base with dk subclass. What I’m trying to point out is if they apply this to at least 1 skill in every class skill line we go from class combination abc being a thing to now subclass abc does not work the same as subclass bca or cab. I’d even like to seem them apply this in a way where u can alter a dk skill based on what ur base class is for example on searing claw if base class is x alters the damage type of the skill. This would increase build diversity exponentially while also making base class choice an important decision when theory crafting a build.

I think DK base using whip being better than a NB base using whip is exactly what we want for more class identity.
The nuance is, will a DK subclass whip be better than a DK pureclass whip for me personally. I would like the pureclass whip to have batter base modifiers in that case, maybe based on scaling per skill line. Or a mastery buff for using only pure class. Anyway, maybe this will balance in the long run as you say, but overall this is what we asked for. Selfish as it may sound, I don't care how much power subclassers lose and are excluded from bonuses otherwise

If they apply this to at least 1 skill from every class line we will have substantially more build diversity while likely eliminating some of the pain points of class combination xyz being the go to option

BardokRedSnow · February 4

MashmalloMan wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I dont understand the problem tbh, I enjoyed subclassing also even though I hated it at first, but I've always said I wanted mastery of dragon knight to feel as such. How can you feel specialized as a DK if someone else can just load up your two skill lines, and throw on something else like animal companion and be on equal footing or better.

You can't "load up two skill lines" with subclassing since it's reserved to base classes so it seems you're specifically talking about players who create an alt to utilize base class features, that then subclass out their 3rd or 2nd line. In your scenario, how exactly does this whip exclusive bonus solve your goal?

You’re overthinking it. I literally just mean that without the base class requirement they could just load up two skill lines of yours alongside any other skill line and instantly be on your level or better in most cases. That’s exactly what people are able to do now except it’s worse than my example. The top players are using three separate skill lines and it’s immediately superior.

The point of this requirement is so that subclassing has a cost so that isn’t the case automatically. It’s simple, half the problem of subclassing was that anyone using three damage skill lines and three rings with protective traits on them was superior to all three of those same classes pure classed.

Adding a condition where only the base class can utilize certain buffs or effects is a simple and easy way to counter this.

BardokRedSnow · February 4

I probably should reiterate as I always have to… this is for pvp. I don’t care about dps on pve, the content is easy and whatever arbitrary dps ceiling people aren’t getting to with their class or subclass setup is mostly community set not what’s actually needed to complete even hardcore content.

Even so they need this requirement at base for the same reason, balance makes more things viable to play and gives the game meaningful variety. For PvP that means you can pure class and compete with more subclass builds, for pve that means you won’t get yelled at for not being a beam hero.

Callosum · February 4

BattleAxe wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

I support what ever gives the base class more identity, pure classes more power and ultimately more options.

But you make it sound like as base class DK, I could still subclass, but also benefit from my baseclass bonus?
This I would not support because it makes a subclassing DK suddenly a better DK than pure classing again.

Yes and no. What it means is a DK base using whip will use it better than say a NB base with dk subclass. What I’m trying to point out is if they apply this to at least 1 skill in every class skill line we go from class combination abc being a thing to now subclass abc does not work the same as subclass bca or cab. I’d even like to seem them apply this in a way where u can alter a dk skill based on what ur base class is for example on searing claw if base class is x alters the damage type of the skill. This would increase build diversity exponentially while also making base class choice an important decision when theory crafting a build.

I think DK base using whip being better than a NB base using whip is exactly what we want for more class identity.
The nuance is, will a DK subclass whip be better than a DK pureclass whip for me personally. I would like the pureclass whip to have batter base modifiers in that case, maybe based on scaling per skill line. Or a mastery buff for using only pure class. Anyway, maybe this will balance in the long run as you say, but overall this is what we asked for. Selfish as it may sound, I don't care how much power subclassers lose and are excluded from bonuses otherwise

If they apply this to at least 1 skill from every class line we will have substantially more build diversity while likely eliminating some of the pain points of class combination xyz being the go to option

Leaning more and more into this idea: giving each class skill line one defining skill, ultimate, or passive (for example, whip, leap, or avalanche for DK) that becomes especially strong only when you’re playing that base class would be a great way to secure base class identity and competitiveness. It creates a meaningful trade-off when you swap out a class skill line you’re giving up a class-defining bonus. At the same time, this approach allows certain skills to be a bit overtuned without completely breaking balance, since you can’t just combine all the strongest class-defining tools into a single build.

Radiate77 · February 4

Yeah bro, make the game less customizable.

Eliminate options for those who want to play one character, restrict everything because of one to three Classes overperforming at the expense of thousands. What a joke.

People who have not even a third of their stickerbook are chiming in to tell us creatives that it’s actually a good thing that we can be less creative.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I probably should reiterate as I always have to… this is for pvp.

And also, @BardokRedSnow idk why you keep saying in multiple threads, “we PvPers” as if you have more experience in PvP than who you’re talking to. You realize we play different platforms right? I primarily play PvP. This is a bad change FOR PvP. It was less bad when it was just PvE.

Radiate77 · February 4

BattleAxe wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

I support what ever gives the base class more identity, pure classes more power and ultimately more options.

But you make it sound like as base class DK, I could still subclass, but also benefit from my baseclass bonus?
This I would not support because it makes a subclassing DK suddenly a better DK than pure classing again.

Yes and no. What it means is a DK base using whip will use it better than say a NB base with dk subclass. What I’m trying to point out is if they apply this to at least 1 skill in every class skill line we go from class combination abc being a thing to now subclass abc does not work the same as subclass bca or cab. I’d even like to seem them apply this in a way where u can alter a dk skill based on what ur base class is for example on searing claw if base class is x alters the damage type of the skill. This would increase build diversity exponentially while also making base class choice an important decision when theory crafting a build.

I think DK base using whip being better than a NB base using whip is exactly what we want for more class identity.
The nuance is, will a DK subclass whip be better than a DK pureclass whip for me personally. I would like the pureclass whip to have batter base modifiers in that case, maybe based on scaling per skill line. Or a mastery buff for using only pure class. Anyway, maybe this will balance in the long run as you say, but overall this is what we asked for. Selfish as it may sound, I don't care how much power subclassers lose and are excluded from bonuses otherwise

If they apply this to at least 1 skill from every class line we will have substantially more build diversity while likely eliminating some of the pain points of class combination xyz being the go to option

What is this talk about these restrictions balancing Subclassing builds?

Have you guys missed the plot entirely?

Look at Dragonknight, they spread all of their power around to all three lines… there will be no DPS lines, no Healer ones, nor Tank lines.

That alone will fix the problem of running three of the same role-specific lines. We do not need weird uncalled for restrictions to skills.

Radiate77 · February 4

^ Hope this AI slop helps to illustrate my point.

Notice how none of the cups are perfect, or perfectly filled, but close enough where you wouldn’t be offended regardless of which one you’re handed.

That’s how this rework should land.

Instead it will look like this…

BattleAxe · February 4

Radiate77 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

I support what ever gives the base class more identity, pure classes more power and ultimately more options.

But you make it sound like as base class DK, I could still subclass, but also benefit from my baseclass bonus?
This I would not support because it makes a subclassing DK suddenly a better DK than pure classing again.

Yes and no. What it means is a DK base using whip will use it better than say a NB base with dk subclass. What I’m trying to point out is if they apply this to at least 1 skill in every class skill line we go from class combination abc being a thing to now subclass abc does not work the same as subclass bca or cab. I’d even like to seem them apply this in a way where u can alter a dk skill based on what ur base class is for example on searing claw if base class is x alters the damage type of the skill. This would increase build diversity exponentially while also making base class choice an important decision when theory crafting a build.

I think DK base using whip being better than a NB base using whip is exactly what we want for more class identity.
The nuance is, will a DK subclass whip be better than a DK pureclass whip for me personally. I would like the pureclass whip to have batter base modifiers in that case, maybe based on scaling per skill line. Or a mastery buff for using only pure class. Anyway, maybe this will balance in the long run as you say, but overall this is what we asked for. Selfish as it may sound, I don't care how much power subclassers lose and are excluded from bonuses otherwise

If they apply this to at least 1 skill from every class line we will have substantially more build diversity while likely eliminating some of the pain points of class combination xyz being the go to option

What is this talk about these restrictions balancing Subclassing builds?

Have you guys missed the plot entirely?

Look at Dragonknight, they spread all of their power around to all three lines… there will be no DPS lines, no Healer ones, nor Tank lines.

That alone will fix the problem of running three of the same role-specific lines. We do not need weird uncalled for restrictions to skills.

Have you not read thru my other comments how what your calling restrictive isn’t necessarily as restrictive as you say. Applying a base class “restriction” to every skill line will actually create build diversity in the sense you choose dk nightblade Templar and say I choose Templar nightblade dk we will not perform the exact same if we use the same skills. If every class has something like this means your base class choice no matters and isn’t just an abitrary decision. Also where do you get my comment talking about subclassing balance. It doesn’t state that at all I’m talking build diversity and base class choice now being an important decision apart from certain sets or scribing skills.

Radiate77 · February 4

BattleAxe wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

I support what ever gives the base class more identity, pure classes more power and ultimately more options.

But you make it sound like as base class DK, I could still subclass, but also benefit from my baseclass bonus?
This I would not support because it makes a subclassing DK suddenly a better DK than pure classing again.

Yes and no. What it means is a DK base using whip will use it better than say a NB base with dk subclass. What I’m trying to point out is if they apply this to at least 1 skill in every class skill line we go from class combination abc being a thing to now subclass abc does not work the same as subclass bca or cab. I’d even like to seem them apply this in a way where u can alter a dk skill based on what ur base class is for example on searing claw if base class is x alters the damage type of the skill. This would increase build diversity exponentially while also making base class choice an important decision when theory crafting a build.

I think DK base using whip being better than a NB base using whip is exactly what we want for more class identity.
The nuance is, will a DK subclass whip be better than a DK pureclass whip for me personally. I would like the pureclass whip to have batter base modifiers in that case, maybe based on scaling per skill line. Or a mastery buff for using only pure class. Anyway, maybe this will balance in the long run as you say, but overall this is what we asked for. Selfish as it may sound, I don't care how much power subclassers lose and are excluded from bonuses otherwise

If they apply this to at least 1 skill from every class line we will have substantially more build diversity while likely eliminating some of the pain points of class combination xyz being the go to option

What is this talk about these restrictions balancing Subclassing builds?

Have you guys missed the plot entirely?

Look at Dragonknight, they spread all of their power around to all three lines… there will be no DPS lines, no Healer ones, nor Tank lines.

That alone will fix the problem of running three of the same role-specific lines. We do not need weird uncalled for restrictions to skills.

Have you not read thru my other comments how what your calling restrictive isn’t necessarily as restrictive as you say. Applying a base class “restriction” to every skill line will actually create build diversity in the sense you choose dk nightblade Templar and say I choose Templar nightblade dk we will not perform the exact same if we use the same skills. If every class has something like this means your base class choice no matters and isn’t just an abitrary decision. Also where do you get my comment talking about subclassing balance. It doesn’t state that at all I’m talking build diversity and base class choice now being an important decision apart from certain sets or scribing skills.

The last thing this game needs, is more complicated conditional requirements that will only prove to frustrate players.

And wow would that already fail the ‘cool’ test, instead of giving our new Classes a name, we’re stuck injecting whatever our base is? “Yeah I’m a Dragonknight Ranger” what???

Now I’ve gotta tell my friends, “hey man, I know we’re using the same skill lines, but you chose the wrong class, you need to go re-learn all of your motifs, go farm Skill Points again, and grab all of your Lorebooks and Portals.”

Most won’t.

They will just quit and who can blame them?

There should be no distinction between a Nightblade Ranger or a Warden Ranger.

The distinction, is that you’ve chosen the three skills lines that would comprise the class out of hundreds if not thousands of options.

Also; you’re asking for relevance? “while likely eliminating the pain points of class combination XYZ” what are the pain points if not balance?