Streak, Shalks, Incap, Spec Bow, repeat (PvP)

BioBitter100 · January 27

I´ve been playing a lot of PvP for the past days during the event after I took a break for a few months, and now I remember vividly why I left back then. This meta is just so incredibly stale and boring. I am mostly playing puresorc bowsorc and I really like my setup but it´s just so much weaker than it was before subclassing, because at least every second player runs streak now. Just now, before logging off, I got "streaked down" 4 or 5 times by different groups of people who all had streak and it´s kinda frustrating. Before subclassing stamsorc always was my go to for solo play cause I could at least outrun groups of 5+ people, but this advantage doesn´t exist anymore.
I guess my point is that I really dislike subclassing for PvP and really wish that it would just be removed from the game, or at least from PvP. I miss when each class had certain strengths and weaknesses that were fun to play around, at least for me. I used to play all classes and all my characters and each one felt different and distinct. Today the character or class doesn´t really matter much anymore. Heck, even my nightblade that I specifically made for troll tanking in PvP, named "Shields-with-Shadows" doesn´t even use the shadow skill line anymore cause polar wind is just a million times better than cloak for max health healing.
Now everyone is playing the same ~5 skill lines and is simultaneously a tank, while being able to sustain forever but also being to able to oneshot randomly cause everyone can easily hit crit cap...and it´s really boring to get incap-shalk-spec bowed a 100 times in a row. Yeah, just had to get that off of my mind. During the event I will keep playing cause at least there´s some variation but I will most probably quit again after it ends.
Maybe there´s a light at the end of the tunnel with the class reworks coming, cause subclassing is most likely not gonna go away, but I don´t really feel optimistic about the PvP side of things.

ArchMikem · January 27

Get ready to be talked down to. The vocal majority concerning PvP really don't take kindly to those who oppose the meta. Even though I personally agree with you 100% that Subclassing was a major detriment to PvP, I also don't wish it to completely go away as my own characters make use of it, although to a much more limited degree, cause of how casual I am.

If Subclassing was restricted to just one skill line instead of two, the damage would've been mitigated.

xylena · January 27

ArchMikem wrote: »

The vocal majority concerning PvP really don't take kindly to those who oppose the meta

This is the worst meta this PvP has ever had. Absolute garbage.

The remaining players think it's fine, but PvP server pop is at its lowest ever.

BioBitter100 · January 27

Aye, yeah I´m not sure. Maybe we can have a discussion about it. Maybe having only 1 skill line subclassable would be a start, yeah.
Although I´m by no means a casual PvP player, these days I only login to play Cyrodiil/Gray Host(when there´s no event) and also used to run in ball groups. So this stance and post come from someone playing ESO only for the PvP for like 5 years+.

xylena · January 27

BioBitter100 wrote: »

Aye, yeah I´m not sure. Maybe we can have a discussion about it. Maybe having only 1 skill line subclassable would be a start, yeah.

Build PvP is getting a 2 year class rework, this time designed to work with subclassing, which is exactly the sort of drastic overhaul it needed. As is, it's an absolute mess.

If I could do one thing it would be to nuke all the obnoxious sets starting with Rushing Agony, Null Arca, and Snow Treaders. Probably still wouldn't be playable to me.

Radiate77 · January 27

ArchMikem wrote: »

If Subclassing was restricted to just one skill line instead of two, the damage would've been mitigated.

And what one skill line would that be?

Assassination?
Animal Companions?
Stormcalling?

The same people running all three of those skill lines, are the same people who swapped to Sorcerer when they had their wards buffed, are the same players who swapped to Dragonknight when people found out about Ironblood, and are the exact same people who were running Calurions on a Nightblade… this has been a pattern before Subclassing… accrediting it to Subclassing is to ignore 10 years of ESO’s history.

ArchMikem · January 28

xylena wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

The vocal majority concerning PvP really don't take kindly to those who oppose the meta

This is the worst meta this PvP has ever had. Absolute garbage.

It's garbage to those who fight against it, but to those who use the builds it's the most fun "I Win Button" gameplay they've ever had.

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

If Subclassing was restricted to just one skill line instead of two, the damage would've been mitigated.

And what one skill line would that be?
Assassination?

Animal Companions?

Stormcalling?

At the very least they'd be forced to choose only two of those, instead of all three. One from the base Class and one Subclassed. Like my Nightblade. I always played as a Spellsword in Skyrim, so with subclassing all I did was replace Shadow with Stormcalling, giving me the buffs to Shock damage and then Scribed Shock Soul. My StamBlade is still 90% pure class, but with one Magicka ability now.

PathosDante · January 28

My general opinion is that only one skill line should be usable for both PVP and PVE — and even that single skill line should be in a nerfed form. I have been playing only PVP for years, and currently I play a WARDEN with three different skill lines, but in the past I enjoyed playing a pure Warden much more.

Radiate77 · January 28

ArchMikem wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

The vocal majority concerning PvP really don't take kindly to those who oppose the meta

This is the worst meta this PvP has ever had. Absolute garbage.

It's garbage to those who fight against it, but to those who use the builds it's the most fun "I Win Button" gameplay they've ever had.

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

If Subclassing was restricted to just one skill line instead of two, the damage would've been mitigated.

And what one skill line would that be?
Assassination?

Animal Companions?

Stormcalling?

At the very least they'd be forced to choose only two of those, instead of all three. One from the base Class and one Subclassed. Like my Nightblade. I always played as a Spellsword in Skyrim, so with subclassing all I did was replace Shadow with Stormcalling, giving me the buffs to Shock damage and then Scribed Shock Soul. My StamBlade is still 90% pure class, but with one Magicka ability now.

You say that it would be better if we only had to deal with 1 Subclassed line when fighting opponents, but what happens when people are already picking Warden for it’s charm, and they have Animal Companions with Winter’s Embrace?

Those same players just swap out Green Balance for Assassination and we have the exact same problem you’re trying to solve with this solution.

Now I’ll reiterate, Subclassing is not the issue. Player behavior is, and that’s on both sides, you have the meta abusers and the people who complain about it rather than adapt. These two groups of people will always exist.

BioBitter100 · January 28

Radiate77 wrote: »

Now I’ll reiterate, Subclassing is not the issue. Player behavior is, and that’s on both sides, you have the meta abusers and the people who complain about it rather than adapt. These two groups of people will always exist.

I only partially agree with this. It´s both player behaviour and game design choices. In a PvP environment it´s very obvious that most people will pick what´s best to beat other players, simply cause winning is the goal and losing is frustrating. So the game should be designed so there´s a healthy pool of viable options available to pick from. But this pool is very small at the moment and not healthy.
I personally adapted in many ways and of course I also have subclassed builds but the variation is so small that I already know that it will drive me away from the game again. My bowsorc would hit harder with assassination/spec bow, because of the passives alone, but I don´t wanna play it on every build. But it feels like I am handicapping myself cause I´m not.

olsborg · January 28

Agree with OP, I dont rly play much anymore, I do the pvp-events whenever i can, but thats just cause the pvp-meta isnt so prevalent then, but once event is over you are stuck with fighting the same OP build almost everywhere you go, and if you dont play it roughly the same, you wont have a good time.
Rallying cry, Null arca, Monomyth, Essence thief, Balorgh, Wretched vitality, Roksa...metasets. Now that is all ok, but if you then add the subclass meta wich almost always consists of Stormcalling, Assassination and either Grave lord or Animal control. Stale overtuned meta.

SneaK · January 28

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

The vocal majority concerning PvP really don't take kindly to those who oppose the meta

This is the worst meta this PvP has ever had. Absolute garbage.

It's garbage to those who fight against it, but to those who use the builds it's the most fun "I Win Button" gameplay they've ever had.

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

If Subclassing was restricted to just one skill line instead of two, the damage would've been mitigated.

And what one skill line would that be?
Assassination?

Animal Companions?

Stormcalling?

At the very least they'd be forced to choose only two of those, instead of all three. One from the base Class and one Subclassed. Like my Nightblade. I always played as a Spellsword in Skyrim, so with subclassing all I did was replace Shadow with Stormcalling, giving me the buffs to Shock damage and then Scribed Shock Soul. My StamBlade is still 90% pure class, but with one Magicka ability now.

You say that it would be better if we only had to deal with 1 Subclassed line when fighting opponents, but what happens when people are already picking Warden for it’s charm, and they have Animal Companions with Winter’s Embrace?

Those same players just swap out Green Balance for Assassination and we have the exact same problem you’re trying to solve with this solution.

Now I’ll reiterate, Subclassing is not the issue. Player behavior is, and that’s on both sides, you have the meta abusers and the people who complain about it rather than adapt. These two groups of people will always exist.

Well they need to get rid of Charm too. But even then, at least those wardens wouldn’t be streaking away for LoS, there would be at least some more counterplay. Right now the simple fact that Storm Calling provides wayyyy too much utility (and passive dmg) and it can be picked as the third skill line is the problem. Literally every sweat lord runs Storm Calling on top of two dmg lines. I’d much rather deal with a Warden/Assassination kit than a Warden/Assassination/Sorc.

Multiclassing is the issue, let’s call it what it is.

BXR_Lonestar · January 28

ArchMikem wrote: »

Get ready to be talked down to. The vocal majority concerning PvP really don't take kindly to those who oppose the meta. Even though I personally agree with you 100% that Subclassing was a major detriment to PvP, I also don't wish it to completely go away as my own characters make use of it, although to a much more limited degree, cause of how casual I am.

If Subclassing was restricted to just one skill line instead of two, the damage would've been mitigated.

It would have been less, but it would not have been mitigated. IMO, it is clear that subclassing was a mistake. Kind of like putting square wheels on a car. To fix the problem, you can't just let the problem continue to exist while you try to fix other things in order to mitigate the impact. More horsepower and air shocks might help to get those square wheels to spin faster and give you the illusion of a smooth ride, but the underlying problem still remains. And I think that is really what they are trying to do with the class rework...

Color me skeptical, but the way they're going about doing it is just going to lead people to all play the same class until the next OP class is released down the road. Or worse, the changes will just supercharge those using subclasses and create an even bigger issue.

What really needs to happen IMO is they need to undo the things that have damaged the combat system (subclassing, hybridization, animation cancelling, uniform damage scaling), THEN go about doing a class rework that should do all classes at one time. There should be some rock-paper-sissors style balancing so each class has favored opponents and disfavored opponents (i.e., bonus damage against 1-2 classes, and you take extra damage from 1-2 different classes) so that no single class or handful of classes can dominate because each class has built in weaknesses and strengths. That creates incentives to have a variety of classes within your group outside of the buffs and debuffs they can provide.

Each class should also have something they do well that makes the class desirable. It can be as simple as a NB having massive single target damage but no multi-target potential, vs a sorc having massive AOE damage that ramps up the more targets are hit, but has relatively low single target damage.

And they need to get rid of the idea that every class can do all things. The game had more variety IMO when the classes had 1-2 things they did really well vs any class being able to do anything.

Oblivion_Protocol · January 28

We’ve been beating our heads against this game for years, and howling about the effects of subclassing. The devs went ahead with it anyway, and here we are. At this point, most of people who use the meta in PvP (myself included) have come to the conclusion that the meta will always exist in some way, shape, or form, and it’s better to win with something effective than to use something sub-par in the hopes of doing well.

Besides, stale though it may be, it’s not an instant-win button. Skilled players can still overcome meta setups. It’s hard, I’ll acknowledge that. But I’ve seen plenty of folks who simply didn’t care about what proc set or subclass lines their opponents used.

Desiato · January 28

PVP in this game is so broken it needs a back to the drawing board reset with fresh eyes and a new vision.

Just because some people like it -- and probably not because they enjoy good, balanced pvp -- doesn't mean it is redeemable in any way. It is a dead game mode enjoyed regularly by probably only a few thousand players around the world.

ArchMikem · January 28

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

If Subclassing was restricted to just one skill line instead of two, the damage would've been mitigated.

And what one skill line would that be?
Assassination?

Animal Companions?

Stormcalling?

At the very least they'd be forced to choose only two of those, instead of all three. One from the base Class and one Subclassed. Like my Nightblade. I always played as a Spellsword in Skyrim, so with subclassing all I did was replace Shadow with Stormcalling, giving me the buffs to Shock damage and then Scribed Shock Soul. My StamBlade is still 90% pure class, but with one Magicka ability now.

You say that it would be better if we only had to deal with 1 Subclassed line when fighting opponents, but what happens when people are already picking Warden for it’s charm, and they have Animal Companions with Winter’s Embrace?

Those same players just swap out Green Balance for Assassination and we have the exact same problem you’re trying to solve with this solution.

But then they can't Streak away when their burst fails, cause they don't have Stormcalling.

Radiate77 · January 28

ArchMikem wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

If Subclassing was restricted to just one skill line instead of two, the damage would've been mitigated.

And what one skill line would that be?
Assassination?

Animal Companions?

Stormcalling?

At the very least they'd be forced to choose only two of those, instead of all three. One from the base Class and one Subclassed. Like my Nightblade. I always played as a Spellsword in Skyrim, so with subclassing all I did was replace Shadow with Stormcalling, giving me the buffs to Shock damage and then Scribed Shock Soul. My StamBlade is still 90% pure class, but with one Magicka ability now.

You say that it would be better if we only had to deal with 1 Subclassed line when fighting opponents, but what happens when people are already picking Warden for it’s charm, and they have Animal Companions with Winter’s Embrace?

Those same players just swap out Green Balance for Assassination and we have the exact same problem you’re trying to solve with this solution.

But then they can't Streak away when their burst fails, cause they don't have Stormcalling.

They won’t need to, they’ll just build more health and bank on the best heal in the game, Polar Wind.

We would be further entrenched in a Warden meta with only one skill line subclass-able.

At least now you can build AGAINST the meta, something we have never had before.

But yeah, I’ve said what needs to be said and am done bumping yet another nerf thread.

SneaK · January 28

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

If Subclassing was restricted to just one skill line instead of two, the damage would've been mitigated.

And what one skill line would that be?
Assassination?

Animal Companions?

Stormcalling?

At the very least they'd be forced to choose only two of those, instead of all three. One from the base Class and one Subclassed. Like my Nightblade. I always played as a Spellsword in Skyrim, so with subclassing all I did was replace Shadow with Stormcalling, giving me the buffs to Shock damage and then Scribed Shock Soul. My StamBlade is still 90% pure class, but with one Magicka ability now.

You say that it would be better if we only had to deal with 1 Subclassed line when fighting opponents, but what happens when people are already picking Warden for it’s charm, and they have Animal Companions with Winter’s Embrace?

Those same players just swap out Green Balance for Assassination and we have the exact same problem you’re trying to solve with this solution.

But then they can't Streak away when their burst fails, cause they don't have Stormcalling.

They won’t need to, they’ll just build more health and bank on the best heal in the game, Polar Wind.

We would be further entrenched in a Warden meta with only one skill line subclass-able.

At least now you can build AGAINST the meta, something we have never had before.

But yeah, I’ve said what needs to be said and am done bumping yet another nerf thread.

If Charm wasn’t so broken it wouldn’t even be a Warden meta. But it would be a streaking Sorc meta which is funny cause that’s a utility mobility skill line. Wardens would be in the middle of the pack without charm and only access to one sub line.

Thumbless_Bot · January 29

SneaK wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

If Subclassing was restricted to just one skill line instead of two, the damage would've been mitigated.

And what one skill line would that be?
Assassination?

Animal Companions?

Stormcalling?

At the very least they'd be forced to choose only two of those, instead of all three. One from the base Class and one Subclassed. Like my Nightblade. I always played as a Spellsword in Skyrim, so with subclassing all I did was replace Shadow with Stormcalling, giving me the buffs to Shock damage and then Scribed Shock Soul. My StamBlade is still 90% pure class, but with one Magicka ability now.

You say that it would be better if we only had to deal with 1 Subclassed line when fighting opponents, but what happens when people are already picking Warden for it’s charm, and they have Animal Companions with Winter’s Embrace?

Those same players just swap out Green Balance for Assassination and we have the exact same problem you’re trying to solve with this solution.

But then they can't Streak away when their burst fails, cause they don't have Stormcalling.

They won’t need to, they’ll just build more health and bank on the best heal in the game, Polar Wind.

We would be further entrenched in a Warden meta with only one skill line subclass-able.

At least now you can build AGAINST the meta, something we have never had before.

But yeah, I’ve said what needs to be said and am done bumping yet another nerf thread.

If Charm wasn’t so broken it wouldn’t even be a Warden meta. But it would be a streaking Sorc meta which is funny cause that’s a utility mobility skill line. Wardens would be in the middle of the pack without charm and only access to one sub line.

Winter's Embrace is a very good skill line that a lot of people sleep on. It provides A LOT of pvp utility.

A second hot and burst heal in one.

Additional armor.

A powerful ulti that also increases damage by up to 18%.

Major protection

Minor protection

Increased frost damage by 15% (stacks with the 18% above, and say essence thief, and wrecking blow)

Passive major maim.

I have run this almost exclusively since subclassing and done just fine. No. It's not meta, but it's really strong and fun. It is absolutely not mid.

And @Radiate77 is right. This is basically what I run to counter the meta. I dont have Solstice and I dont run that toxic meta garbage that zos knows everyone will hand over money for. I dont run broken sorc.combos. that stuff is fine for those that think it's fun. Its just not for me and now I can compete with an anti meta build against just about anyone except the most elite players running meta or relying on broken mechanics. Dont even run charm because it's a stupid concept and stupidly broken and was implemented terribly.

SneaK · January 29

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

If Subclassing was restricted to just one skill line instead of two, the damage would've been mitigated.

And what one skill line would that be?
Assassination?

Animal Companions?

Stormcalling?

At the very least they'd be forced to choose only two of those, instead of all three. One from the base Class and one Subclassed. Like my Nightblade. I always played as a Spellsword in Skyrim, so with subclassing all I did was replace Shadow with Stormcalling, giving me the buffs to Shock damage and then Scribed Shock Soul. My StamBlade is still 90% pure class, but with one Magicka ability now.

You say that it would be better if we only had to deal with 1 Subclassed line when fighting opponents, but what happens when people are already picking Warden for it’s charm, and they have Animal Companions with Winter’s Embrace?

Those same players just swap out Green Balance for Assassination and we have the exact same problem you’re trying to solve with this solution.

But then they can't Streak away when their burst fails, cause they don't have Stormcalling.

They won’t need to, they’ll just build more health and bank on the best heal in the game, Polar Wind.

We would be further entrenched in a Warden meta with only one skill line subclass-able.

At least now you can build AGAINST the meta, something we have never had before.

But yeah, I’ve said what needs to be said and am done bumping yet another nerf thread.

If Charm wasn’t so broken it wouldn’t even be a Warden meta. But it would be a streaking Sorc meta which is funny cause that’s a utility mobility skill line. Wardens would be in the middle of the pack without charm and only access to one sub line.

Winter's Embrace is a very good skill line that a lot of people sleep on. It provides A LOT of pvp utility.

A second hot and burst heal in one.

Additional armor.

A powerful ulti that also increases damage by up to 18%.

Major protection

Minor protection

Increased frost damage by 15% (stacks with the 18% above, and say essence thief, and wrecking blow)

Passive major maim.

I have run this almost exclusively since subclassing and done just fine. No. It's not meta, but it's really strong and fun. It is absolutely not mid.

And @Radiate77 is right. This is basically what I run to counter the meta. I dont have Solstice and I dont run that toxic meta garbage that zos knows everyone will hand over money for. I dont run broken sorc.combos. that stuff is fine for those that think it's fun. Its just not for me and now I can compete with an anti meta build against just about anyone except the most elite players running meta or relying on broken mechanics. Dont even run charm because it's a stupid concept and stupidly broken and was implemented terribly.

I know what Winter’s Embrace is, but we’re talking about “meta” which currently, is a Warden meta strictly cause of Charm.

I run WE too, on an off meta Earthern Heart, Assassination, Winters build. It’s tanky with decent damage sure, but it has no mobility and my stun isn’t an 8m AoE. I lose against equally skilled players running base WardenSorc mutants running charm. Y’all are lying to yourselves if you think you’re “countering the meta”. The only counter is being extremely skilled on a bursty build or running some whacked out tank heal siege bot that does no damage.

Thumbless_Bot · January 29

The only counter is being extremely skilled

100% sums it up.

CalamityCat · January 29

As someone who doesn't subclass in PvP I can still get the kills on a pure Warden or NB, but there are so so many frustrating fights with the subclass builds now. My girls will get utterly obliterated and always it's the meta subclass junk. I'm not a great PvPer by any means, but when I get a subclasser who can fight, I genuinely feel I have zero chance of winning. That's new. I used to hold my own a lot better, but now players are good with subclass builds, the gap just feels wider.

The only pleasant surprise I got the other day was a pure DK who absolutely whipped my pure warden (literally lol), but it's one of only a couple of pure vs pure build fights I've had during this round of Mayhem.

I still plan to PvP, but I tend to just hit IC/Cyro for shorter periods now because I'm tired of handing easy victories to meta subclassers. That much death just gets demoralizing! I don't want to become part of the subclass problem, because I'd contribute to having my favourite pure classes nerfed. I just hope that the DK and Warden refresh give me something to work with this year.

xylena · January 29

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

The only counter is being extremely skilled

100% sums it up

When something demands high skill but most people find it boring, it's usually called a "job" and you get paid to do it, i.e. many accounting or tech jobs.

The current game meta has a high skill ceiling, but at no point do you ever gain agency to turn the tide of an even fight, it can be fully reset at any moment, and you generally only win by getting lucky on one of your weighted coinflip burst attempts you do every 40 seconds.

Most of the alleged gameplay is literally just waiting with zero impact on who wins.

Thumbless_Bot · January 29

xylena wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

The only counter is being extremely skilled

100% sums it up

When something demands high skill but most people find it boring, it's usually called a "job" and you get paid to do it, i.e. many accounting or tech jobs.

The current game meta has a high skill ceiling, but at no point do you ever gain agency to turn the tide of an even fight, it can be fully reset at any moment, and you generally only win by getting lucky on one of your weighted coinflip burst attempts you do every 40 seconds.

Most of the alleged gameplay is literally just waiting with zero impact on who wins.

Play something else.

Continue to voice your frustrations here as well. Seems like zos is paying more attention.

xylena · January 29

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Play something else.

I do, and so do the thousands of once dedicated ESO PvP regulars who quit.

Obviously not a problem to the tiny handful of prime time GH players remaining, who don't care about other players or the rest of the game, only their 2-4 hours of being a big fish in a small pond, abusing some of the most busted i-win-buttons in any PvP game around.

GH forum defenders would rather see the game die than see it move on without them.

Thumbless_Bot · January 29

xylena wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Play something else.

I do, and so do the thousands of once dedicated ESO PvP regulars who quit.

Obviously not a problem to the tiny handful of prime time GH players remaining, who don't care about other players or the rest of the game, only their 2-4 hours of being a big fish in a small pond, abusing some of the most busted i-win-buttons in any PvP game around.

GH forum defenders would rather see the game die than see it move on without them.

This p2w meta is definitely terrible. Subclassing definitely needs work and classes need to.be overhauled, but the game can still be fun.

SneaK · January 29

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

The only counter is being extremely skilled

100% sums it up.

Missed the part about equally skilled opponents. I really don’t know what your argument even is(?), that the meta can be countered by a Frost Warden? lol no

You know my point is multiclassing (not subclassing) has killed balance, and Charm is a no skill get out of jail free card that needs reworked. It’s an argument for better balance than what we have, not to continue onward with this busted meta.

And I rarely agree with @xylena, but 100% we do still have a high skill ceiling, however certain builds with THREE different class lines have access to the elevator and the rest are taking the stairs.

xylena · January 29

It's like everyone agrees the game has problems and needs changes, but one player's problem is always another player's "no it's fine" and then it goes downhill from there.

SneaK · January 29

xylena wrote: »

It's like everyone agrees the game has problems and needs changes, but one player's problem is always another player's "no it's fine" and then it goes downhill from there.

Fact. We can’t collectively agree on what the “changes” should be, and never will.

ZOS has all the cards and there’s nothing we say or do that would have 100% buy in, as asinine as it seems when a problem is so clear to you, someone else out there in cyberspace enjoys it.

*Minus Charm, anyone that enjoys that should feel ashamed.*

xylena · January 29

SneaK wrote: »

Fact. We can’t collectively agree on what the “changes” should be, and never will.

The lead dev for Magic: the Gathering agrees as well.

We've seen this play out on the PTS forum recently, players quickly identified problems with the devs' initial proposed heal stacking change, the devs agreed and walked it back, then the players argued for hundreds of posts over a new solution getting absolutely nowhere.

The devs proposed another solution, better than the original but not perfect, players gave feedback, devs will keep working on it. This seems more functional.

Thumbless_Bot · January 29

Complaining users are better than silent ones. It means we care. The game will never be perfect because that doesnt exist, and, even if it did, it would be subjective.

The game is still fun even in this likely worst meta ever, for me, at least, because ive found a way to enjoy the game without running the meta. I hope others can as well.