Please do something about Wayshrine Guild Invite spam on PC-NA

WhiteCoatSyndrome · January 23

+1 also encountered this, was also annoyed by it. Being able to block their invites would be great.

Pevey · January 23

If ZOS doesn't want to implement a coded solution, I can understand that. But some action needs to be taken. It's clear that this is way beyond social norms by the fact that only ONE guild leader pushes this form of "recruitment."

It doesn't seem like a grey area to me at all. No means no. If someone declines a guild invite, repeatedly sending that same person another guild invite every time they go to certain wayshrines is harassment and already against the TOS.

LittleLionLeone · January 28

Just wanted to post a perfect example of the bot in action. This is at Vulkhel Guard. It just sits in that little corner facing the wayshrine all day and night. Spamming the invites to that guild.

DeathandDebauchery · January 28

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

Just wanted to post a perfect example of the bot in action. This is at Vulkhel Guard. It just sits in that little corner facing the wayshrine all day and night. Spamming the invites to that guild.

@ZOS_Kevin this is what we are all talking about.

SilverBride · January 28

They caught me yesterday in Daggerfall. They were standing right on the wayshrine. Of course I declined their invite.

sshogrin · January 28

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

Just wanted to post a perfect example of the bot in action. This is at Vulkhel Guard. It just sits in that little corner facing the wayshrine all day and night. Spamming the invites to that guild.

@ZOS_Kevin this is what we are all talking about.

Someone needs to drag the guards over there and let that bot get killed by the guards....lol

Morvan · January 28

I was part of the said guild for some decent amount of time, they were always trying to push me to become a recruiter and download an add-on to spam invite people at cities, I always refused since I thought it was a waste of time, but some people will accept doing free labour just to acquire some kind of status within the guild, when they're actually just their serving bots.

I ended up getting enlightened of how narcissistic and cult-like their leadership are when there was a minor discussion within the guild about parsing, pretty much just 2-3 individuals talking about how pointless parsing is, and I politely tried to explain why players parse and how it helps improve builds and rotations, a few minutes later their leader joined the conversation with the intention to end it, and during so he also pointed why parsing is important, and I made clear that I agree with every point he made.

5 minutes later, they kicked me out of the guild and I was asked to contact their leader, he tried to explain to me what a "toxic casual" is, accusing me of doing the thing the other 3 individuals were doing, I explained to him that he mistook me for someone else, and that I was on his side of the discussion, but he neglected my argument, said he had proof (it was a straight up lie since I asked them to provide it multiple times and was either ignored or insulted), said I was "playing dumb", they only wanted me to apologize for something I didn't do just to not admit a mistake.

Months later I got invited to the guild again by one of their bots, I accepted for laughs just to see what they'd do, another officer talked to me and I told her the whole situation, she was acting super nice and said she would look into it, the next day once she was told who I was she gave me the back of her hand and was completely rude as every other officer, it's almost like they are brainwashed.

I could keep going on and on, and even talk about their "events" that are just made to leech their our members, I also know several former members and even former recruiters who got discarded and treated like trash once they got busy irl and stopped serving them, but that's their own stories.

Either way, they're definitely the most toxic guild on PC-NA, and it's not even close.

SilverBride · January 28

Why do people join this guild when they have such a bad reputation? What is the benefit?

ZOS_Kevin · January 28

Hi all. When you see instances of this, could you take a screenshot and place a ticket. And then share the ticket number here as well. That way, if some of these are bots, we can take care of them. If these are other players, then we can also have a chat with them to see what is going on. We want to reduce harassment where possible and being able to properly identify issues is the first step for our customer service team to assist.

Morvan · January 28

SilverBride wrote: »

Why do people join this guild when they have such a bad reputation? What is the benefit?

They are very well known, but since they spam invites in starter zones, most of their members are new players that are just unaware.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all. When you see instances of this, could you take a screenshot and place a ticket. And then share the ticket number here as well. That way, if some of these are bots, we can take care of them. If these are other players, then we can also have a chat with them to see what is going on. We want to reduce harassment where possible and being able to properly identify issues is the first step for our customer service team to assist.

Dealing with the individuals will unfortunately not do much, the whole guild have officers dedicated to pretty much build a little army of recruiters that are all running around in zones and spamming invites with add-ons, if the system isn't dismantled they'll just keep replacing the individuals, they already do that.

DalisMagnus · January 28

I would like to note there has been a change in how a few guilds are recruiting. I’ve been getting direct messages at wayshrines from people asking to join their guild.

In one case they were offering money to join them and help beta testing a different game… that report when no where.

Morvan · January 28

I also must note that most of the things they do that could be considered toxic/illicit are done through Discord, they're definitely very aware of what they're doing, which would make extremely hard for ZOS to track down.

sshogrin · January 28

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all. When you see instances of this, could you take a screenshot and place a ticket. And then share the ticket number here as well. That way, if some of these are bots, we can take care of them. If these are other players, then we can also have a chat with them to see what is going on. We want to reduce harassment where possible and being able to properly identify issues is the first step for our customer service team to assist.

@ZOS_Kevin
260128-002388 is the recent ticket I submitted that has a screenshot of the account in Auridon that is bot spamming invites.

DeathandDebauchery · January 28

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all. When you see instances of this, could you take a screenshot and place a ticket. And then share the ticket number here as well. That way, if some of these are bots, we can take care of them. If these are other players, then we can also have a chat with them to see what is going on. We want to reduce harassment where possible and being able to properly identify issues is the first step for our customer service team to assist.

Truly appreciate the response here Kevin.

Given the amount of clear evidence from this ONE PARTICULAR entity, can something be done to talk to them specifically to cut out the behavior? We will continue to report bots, but the issue has been going on for years and I know for a fact many people have been reporting them for years.

Similar to what happened with the Guild Trader situation on PC-NA where they were clearly trolling the other guild, this is a guild operating completely in bad faith to harass players. What is needed for you all to talk to their guild leadership directly and/or implement a software solution to prevent the harassment?

hiimtye · 12:16AM

I joined the guild just to complain about them. the guild master private messaged me and said that they're not botting because it's an addon, which completely misses the point that just because there's an open avenue of exploit with the addon API, it doesn't make it any less botting when they're:

-automating the guild invites,
-using throw away accounts, and
-nobody is at the helm

there's literally nobody on these accounts, they're sitting there completely automated, and they don't respond when you purposefully litter the ground with NPCs and stand all over their toons with your mounts when they're in the middle of the road, or you stand between them and the wayshrine when they're hiding in the bushes.

while this technically is an addon, and it may not be against the letter of the ToS, it certainly is against the spirit of the ToS when they're actually botting, but using addons. whether they're using an external program, or they're using an exploitable addon API, the behaviour and the result is the same. they're botting.

the guild master also said that they're making an addon to block their invites, which completely flips the owness onto us, to prevent them from botting.

Aashiana · 1:00AM

Aside from this one guild causing issues, we sometimes do wayshrine advertising (not spamming), because the categories in the guildfinder are so dismal and we don't fit into any of them. And even if we did, a person can't go to the guildfinder and just search for a guild they already know they want to join - BY NAME. Why? why don't we have this simple functionality? Why can't there be a few more subcategories, like Dungeon guilds. I don't know how many times i"ve searched for a guild on guildfinder that I KNEW existed and couldn't find it, it's not alphabetical or string-searchable. C'mon please help us out a little

then there will be less guild-spam in overland.

Desiato · 1:08AM

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all. When you see instances of this, could you take a screenshot and place a ticket. And then share the ticket number here as well. That way, if some of these are bots, we can take care of them. If these are other players, then we can also have a chat with them to see what is going on. We want to reduce harassment where possible and being able to properly identify issues is the first step for our customer service team to assist.

It's shocking no one at ZOS would know about this! Any time the topic comes up in a random Discord server, everyone knows who they are. It would be difficult to play regularly over the past couple of years without encountering them.

Someone at ZOS has to know about these guys. They have surely been reported hundreds -- if not thousands -- of times.

OutLaw_Nynx · 1:45AM

I think a simple fix would just a have an option in settings to auto decline guild invites!?

hiimtye · 2:08AM

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

I think a simple fix would just a have an option in settings to auto decline guild invites!?

yeah, that was the first thing I checked when I kept getting spammed. there's also a bunch of threads on the forums asking for it because of this specific guild in question dating back a while. I don't think the devs care tbh

Soarora · 2:43AM

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

I think a simple fix would just a have an option in settings to auto decline guild invites!?

Maybe less simple but if there's a way to disable whatever they're using to make the addon work would be a better solution-- especially since its mostly new members who get baited into it.

That said, not opposed to auto decline guild invites in the meantime.

AlienatedGoat · 4:24AM

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

I think a simple fix would just a have an option in settings to auto decline guild invites!?

And have it enabled by default. These guilds prey on the new.

scrappy1342 · 12:21PM

Morvan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Why do people join this guild when they have such a bad reputation? What is the benefit?

They are very well known, but since they spam invites in starter zones, most of their members are new players that are just unaware.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all. When you see instances of this, could you take a screenshot and place a ticket. And then share the ticket number here as well. That way, if some of these are bots, we can take care of them. If these are other players, then we can also have a chat with them to see what is going on. We want to reduce harassment where possible and being able to properly identify issues is the first step for our customer service team to assist.

Dealing with the individuals will unfortunately not do much, the whole guild have officers dedicated to pretty much build a little army of recruiters that are all running around in zones and spamming invites with add-ons, if the system isn't dismantled they'll just keep replacing the individuals, they already do that.

the way to fix it is to change whatever they are using in the addon to automate it all and make it so it no longer functions. as others have said, a lot of them are burner accounts, so punishing the one doing it is not going to do anything. although a decline guild invite option would be great, this does not protect new players from being preyed upon by this guild.

as to why ppl join? why do ppl join cults? you can look up the other threads pertaining to this issue and see instances where they behave in cult-like behavior, love bombing the ppl who join and then things get very toxic. they've posted instances where they make you join the discord and then there's nefarious things going on there with them wanting you to download things. and none of this can be handled by zos because it is outside of the game... but they CAN make that particular addon so that it no longer functions. it won't completely solve it either because they can still sit at the wayshrine and manually enter names to invite, but it will for sure cut down on it

heaven13 · 12:37PM

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all. When you see instances of this, could you take a screenshot and place a ticket. And then share the ticket number here as well. That way, if some of these are bots, we can take care of them. If these are other players, then we can also have a chat with them to see what is going on. We want to reduce harassment where possible and being able to properly identify issues is the first step for our customer service team to assist.

I put in tickets every single time I encounter people from this guild. It usually comes back within 10 minutes that no violations are found and I don't bother arguing. Are these tickets that have already been closed ones you would want shared as well?

scrappy1342 · 3:33PM

heaven13 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all. When you see instances of this, could you take a screenshot and place a ticket. And then share the ticket number here as well. That way, if some of these are bots, we can take care of them. If these are other players, then we can also have a chat with them to see what is going on. We want to reduce harassment where possible and being able to properly identify issues is the first step for our customer service team to assist.

I put in tickets every single time I encounter people from this guild. It usually comes back within 10 minutes that no violations are found and I don't bother arguing. Are these tickets that have already been closed ones you would want shared as well?

i would. i've been told, and it sure seems to be true, that zos' policy is to first decline all tickets and say no violation was found and only look into things if ppl appeal it. this would explain why they seem to have no knowledge of this thing that has been going on for years

Dolgubon · 3:45PM

Imo, if you know the GM: then report the GM of the guild(s) doing this, in addition to the people sending the invites, since the invite strategy is coming from them.

It seems guilds with this strategy are using an add-on to send the invites, and that add-on is broken and sending too many invites. They immediately stopped using it right? Of course not, instead they make an add-on that pops up an annoying 'apology' that the user has to dismiss.

Edit: apparently, the add-on description has been edited to remove mention of a broken auto invite add-on, after they were called out on it in the add-on comments, and they deleted the call out comment.

Arguably, the guild invite API is being abused by this group of guilds. It could be set as private by ZOS, which would prevent add-ons from inviting users to guilds. It wouldn't stop them from manually sending invites, but it would stop the add-on abuse.

Lucasl402 · 3:54PM

I've told the guild multiple times not to spam with guild invites, but they continue. I've filed multiple reports about this.

WHY HASN'T ZOS DONE ANYTHING ABOUT THIS YET?!?

This is harassment to continue after being told to stop, even if it is a legit add-on and not botting. Still it's automated harassment and should be dealt with accordingly.

@ZOS_Kevin
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_GinaBruno

sshogrin · 4:10PM

Lucasl402 wrote: »

I've told the guild multiple times not to spam with guild invites, but they continue. I've filed multiple reports about this.

WHY HASN'T ZOS DONE ANYTHING ABOUT THIS YET?!?

This is harassment to continue after being told to stop, even if it is a legit add-on and not botting. Still it's automated harassment and should be dealt with accordingly.

@ZOS_Kevin
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_GinaBruno

According to the ZOS addon ToS, any addon that's "annoying" to other players can be banned from use. This also goes against their ToS as far as harassment.

Make sure that when you report them, that you tell them you've told them to stop. Make a screenshot of your whisper to the bot account, and yes @ZOS_Kevin these are bot accounts, they aren't being attended to, they just sit there near wayshrines pointed at them with an automated addon sending out the invite. That makes it a "bot account". If you tell a player or guild to leave you alone and they continue to do so, that is harassment by definition, and they should be dealt with. In my opinion, they should be banned, I'm talking the accounts, the guilds, the guild leaders and their officers. Not just a few days ban either, it should be permanent ban.

code65536 · 4:16PM

So, yesterday, a number of addon devs noticed that there was a new addon posted to ESOUI, by the person behind the invite spam, to auto-decline their invite spam. (@Dolgubon had mentioned this back in post #86.)

The addon claims that the reason people are getting spamming is because their auto-invite addon is broken, that it no longer is able to determine from the guild history that someone had already been sent an invite in the past, and that the problem is "deep" and not something that they can immediately fix.

So their solution, in the meantime, was to offer this "auto-decline" addon. Which, BTW, creates a popup before it declines, so... you're still having to deal with an interaction, except now it's a more annoying one in the form of a popup. But at least the popup apologizes?

There are quite a few problems here...

If we are to believe their claim that the spam problem is caused by their broken auto-invite addon, then the right thing to do is for them to stop using it until it's fixed. It's ridiculous to place the onus on the user by having the user download an addon to address an issue that they are knowingly causing. Also, how many users are even going to trust this addon from the spammer?
As mentioned above, their auto-decline addon doesn't even address the nuisance of the auto-invite spam. If it did, then it would work silently. Instead, it "generates an apology popup", which is arguably even worse of a nuisance.
And, more worryingly, they are not being honest. I posted a comment on the addon page saying that if their auto-invite addon is indeed broken, then they should stop using it until it's fixed, and that the right thing to do is to fix the problem on their end rather than putting the onus on other players to download some addon. And they deleted my comment. And then they edited their addon page to remove all mention of their auto-invite addon being broken. That's one hell of a red flag for their credibility.

@ZOS_Kevin Please keep this point in mind when you "have a chat with them".

@Baertram I wonder how many other comments they've deleted from their addon page...

Pevey · 4:43PM

code65536 wrote: »

So, yesterday, a number of addon devs noticed that there was a new addon posted to ESOUI, by the person behind the invite spam, to auto-decline their invite spam. (@Dolgubon had mentioned this back in post #86.)

The addon claims that the reason people are getting spamming is because their auto-invite addon is broken, that it no longer is able to determine from the guild history that someone had already been sent an invite in the past, and that the problem is "deep" and not something that they can immediately fix.

So their solution, in the meantime, was to offer this "auto-decline" addon. Which, BTW, creates a popup before it declines, so... you're still having to deal with an interaction, except now it's a more annoying one in the form of a popup. But at least the popup apologizes?

There are quite a few problems here...
If we are to believe their claim that the spam problem is caused by their broken auto-invite addon, then the right thing to do is for them to stop using it until it's fixed. It's ridiculous to place the onus on the user by having the user download an addon to address an issue that they are knowingly causing. Also, how many users are even going to trust this addon from the spammer?

As mentioned above, their auto-decline addon doesn't even address the nuisance of the auto-invite spam. If it did, then it would work silently. Instead, it "generates an apology popup", which is arguably even worse of a nuisance.

And, more worryingly, they are not being honest. I posted a comment on the addon page saying that if their auto-invite addon is indeed broken, then they should stop using it until it's fixed, and that the right thing to do is to fix the problem on their end rather than putting the onus on other players to download some addon. And they deleted my comment. And then they edited their addon page to remove all mention of their auto-invite addon being broken. That's one hell of a red flag for their credibility.

@ZOS_Kevin Please keep this point in mind when you "have a chat with them".

@Baertram I wonder how many other comments they've deleted from their addon page...

Thank you for adding this info.

A couple of people in this thread have suggested the blocking addon as a solution. I strongly disagree, and your post gives some insight as to why.

We install and use addons at our own risk. We have to trust whoever made the addon. There have been cases of addons doing more than was being disclosed. Why in the world would anyone download and use an addon made by a group of people who have already shown themselves to be completely untrustworthy. It is NOT a solution.

Chance_25 · 5:42PM

Good afternoon, all.

I am the owner of the community in question.

Customer Support has already confirmed that our recruitment practices do not violate the Terms of Service or Code of Conduct. That said, I recognize that repeated invites can be annoying, and I apologize if the guilds have upset you with invites in the past. It is true that something within the addon broke, and yes, the staff have been directed to cease the use of it for the time being.

Yes, I developed an addon that blocks the invites. I recognize the pain point that new players, players that don’t use addons, and players that just haven’t heard about it will not be reached.
The notification the addon generates is intended as a brief apology and dismisses after a few seconds. Apologizing was the goal, not annoying people. I will remove the notification completely when I return from work.

It is true that the invites are our primary recruitment method. I am away from the game for about a year and a half on military orders, and when I return this spring/summer, I plan to pretty much raze the guilds to the ground and rebuild them. One of the things I want to do is to use other recruitment methods that prioritize natural engagements versus cold invites. I would much rather recruit members out of dungeons and trials than off the street.

The benefit of recruiting them off of the street is that we can teach them the game, bring them into content, and help them make friends. We have thousands of guild members we recruited off of the street that would not even be playing ESO anymore had we not found them. Some stay in ESO for friends within the guilds, and others stay because we helped them discover content they enjoy and would not have done prior. Our lives pretty much revolve around bringing people together and teaching the game. In addition to my absence, there are two more reasons that the staff are using invites as the primary recruitment method.

The first is reason is that we've been getting banned for zone-chat advertisements. No, not for the invites. For the zone chat advertisements. I've not heard of other guilds with their officers getting banned over zone chat advertisements, but our staff get suspensions whenever we get serious about replacing the invites with zone chat ads as an alternate method.

Secondly, we have many players pull us aside and thank us for the invites, and these members turn out to amazing guildmates. In fact, after an exchange with someone in this thread above, members online that joined from the invites rallied and chimed in about how grateful they were and encouraged us to continue them, confessing that they would not even be Elder Scrolls Online players anymore if not for the invite. The people that join from a cold invite end up with a nearly unanimous gratitude that they did. We offer everything that a guild can possibly offer in this game, plus more. Many of the players that we find this way wouldn’t have the chance at understanding the complexity of ESO without a mentor to guide them or stayed playing the game long-term without a friend group, and thanks to the invite, they have found their people. We are able to help and support them in learning the game, subsequently making not only our community healthier, but the game’s community as well.

If anyone here is annoyed by the invites, I do sincerely apologize for them getting in your way.
For players who do not wish to receive invites, there are multiple options available: ignoring the inviting account, requesting to be placed on our no-invite list, being at guild capacity, or using the opt-out addon mentioned above.

In closing, I do agree that a “decline all guild invites” option native to the game’s UI would be a good idea.