[PvP] From "Dragonknight Rework" to DK Nerfs... What Happened?

Turtle_Bot · January 26

I think you're undervaluing how impactful it is to have good ability (or broken mechanic) locked behind an otherwise dead skill line that is also competing for that sub-classed slot against an already generally (or perceived) superior line from that same class.

Lets look at a few non-Corrosive examples:

Dark Magic - This has Frags (an ability non-sorc mains often compare to spec bow) and dark deal (one of the best sustain tools in the game) and yet the only players I see sub-classing this line are sorc mains. This line also has to compete with Storm Calling.

Draconic Power - This has leap, the single ability in the game that has a higher base tooltip than spec bow and is AoE with a CC, yet nobody sub-classes this line. This line also has to compete with Ardent Flame.

Green Balance - Arguably one of the best support lines in the game, with access to the only stam burst heal in ESO and is 1 of only 2 sources of minor toughness in ESO (and the only source of it for group play), yet it's only sub-classed once per group for organized group comps or very niche support builds for small scale (duos) or PuG healing. This line also has to compete with Animal Companions.

Dawn's Wrath - Has arguably the best execute in the game as well as bubble (one of the best self HoTs in the game ticking every 0.5s instead of every 2s), good cost reduction passive (1 of only 2 passives that also includes ulti costs), minor sorcery and ulti gen, yet it's only seen in organized PvE on a dedicated execute build. This has to compete with Aedric Spear and Restoring Light.

Shadow - Has Arguably the most contentious ability in ESO (invis) that has seen complaints about it since the beginning of the game, also has Blur, one of the most overloaded self-defensive tools, and access to Major Resolve in a passive (free GCD + bar slot). This line also has to compete with Assassination.

Now if we look at Earthen Heart (the line with corrosive):
Earthen Heart - A mediocre line (for PvP), despite having an ultimate that is essentially 10+ seconds of god-mode alongside the best (non-bugged) CC in the game (fossilize) and one of the better sustain passives (battle roar), yet is almost never sub-classed because nothing else (currently) is worth using from that line, also it has to compete with Ardent Flame for the line taken from DK that grants whip (melee spec bow), FoO (cauterize is still an insane heal), noxious (breach), burning embers (DoT/HoT) and standard (for PvE DPS).

Despite what some people (not in this thread) have tried to claim in the past (especially with Frags), 1 skill (sometimes even a few skills) is not enough to carry an entire skill line, especially if there is an already superior skill line from the same class that said skill line needs to compete against when decided to sub-class.

Earthen Heart and Corrosive (before the reworks) are just another example of this 1-2 good abilities on an otherwise mid/bad line.

Post reworks though and even post week 3 adjustments, Earthen Heart as a whole line is actually a line worth looking into, and not just for corrosive:

- Unique 10% damage done (although this could ramp up faster and fall off slower)
- Armor buff with AoE DoT + mini draugrkin (5 piece set that is currently very strong)
- Damage shield that's even stronger than U41 Hardened Ward
- Longest lasting group damage buff that's also a mini Way of Fire (5 piece set that was meta a couple of years ago)
- CC that's arguably even stronger now since it can be delayed to land the CC right as you go for the burst
- Passive Armor bonus (always good in PvP)
- Passive Crit damage bonus (week 3 rework)
- Passive that turns staff heavy attacks into mini Siphoning Attacks activations, restoring both mag and stam

This is a line that is now worth considering on it's own without corrosive (any version of corrosive). Week 1 PTS saw this line (and corrosive) being used everywhere despite the massive hype around Draconic Power and corrosive "only" having an 8% damage cap, not the live 3% and the only ultimate on par with it was Onslaught that was also corrosive, but gave mechanical acuity 5 piece on top of it. Even the giga-buffed Draconic Power line was being sub-classed out for a other lines while keeping Earthen Heart despite DP having better warden wings, leap, minor brutality, battle roar, coag that was now AoE and a bugged flame breath that allowed channeling it for a free beam while casting other abilities.

Something had to give on this line and corrosive being the outlier was the obvious choice. Personally, I would have preferred the damage taken cap to just go away from the corrosive morph specifically and reduce (not remove) the DoT damage for PvP (half the buffed DoT value but give it a "deals double (or more) damage against monsters" modifier to keep it as per week 1 or stronger for PvE) and give it a reduced cost (down to say ~150).
Let the morphs determine if it's a defensive ultimate (magma) or an offensive one (corrosive), that way both are strong for their intended use-cases, but neither will be a best of both worlds instant win button that we saw on weeks 1&2 on PTS.

Decimus · January 26

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I think you're undervaluing how impactful it is to have good ability (or broken mechanic) locked behind an otherwise dead skill line that is also competing for that sub-classed slot against an already generally (or perceived) superior line from that same class.

Lets look at a few non-Corrosive examples:
Dark Magic - This has Frags (an ability non-sorc mains often compare to spec bow) and dark deal (one of the best sustain tools in the game) and yet the only players I see sub-classing this line are sorc mains. This line also has to compete with Storm Calling.

Draconic Power - This has leap, the single ability in the game that has a higher base tooltip than spec bow and is AoE with a CC, yet nobody sub-classes this line. This line also has to compete with Ardent Flame.

Green Balance - Arguably one of the best support lines in the game, with access to the only stam burst heal in ESO and is 1 of only 2 sources of minor toughness in ESO (and the only source of it for group play), yet it's only sub-classed once per group for organized group comps or very niche support builds for small scale (duos) or PuG healing. This line also has to compete with Animal Companions.

Dawn's Wrath - Has arguably the best execute in the game as well as bubble (one of the best self HoTs in the game ticking every 0.5s instead of every 2s), good cost reduction passive (1 of only 2 passives that also includes ulti costs), minor sorcery and ulti gen, yet it's only seen in organized PvE on a dedicated execute build. This has to compete with Aedric Spear and Restoring Light.

Shadow - Has Arguably the most contentious ability in ESO (invis) that has seen complaints about it since the beginning of the game, also has Blur, one of the most overloaded self-defensive tools, and access to Major Resolve in a passive (free GCD + bar slot). This line also has to compete with Assassination.

Now if we look at Earthen Heart (the line with corrosive):
Earthen Heart - A mediocre line (for PvP), despite having an ultimate that is essentially 10+ seconds of god-mode alongside the best (non-bugged) CC in the game (fossilize) and one of the better sustain passives (battle roar), yet is almost never sub-classed because nothing else (currently) is worth using from that line, also it has to compete with Ardent Flame for the line taken from DK that grants whip (melee spec bow), FoO (cauterize is still an insane heal), noxious (breach), burning embers (DoT/HoT) and standard (for PvE DPS).

Despite what some people (not in this thread) have tried to claim in the past (especially with Frags), 1 skill (sometimes even a few skills) is not enough to carry an entire skill line, especially if there is an already superior skill line from the same class that said skill line needs to compete against when decided to sub-class.

Earthen Heart and Corrosive (before the reworks) are just another example of this 1-2 good abilities on an otherwise mid/bad line.

Post reworks though and even post week 3 adjustments, Earthen Heart as a whole line is actually a line worth looking into, and not just for corrosive:
- Unique 10% damage done (although this could ramp up faster and fall off slower)
- Armor buff with AoE DoT + mini draugrkin (5 piece set that is currently very strong)
- Damage shield that's even stronger than U41 Hardened Ward
- Longest lasting group damage buff that's also a mini Way of Fire (5 piece set that was meta a couple of years ago)
- CC that's arguably even stronger now since it can be delayed to land the CC right as you go for the burst
- Passive Armor bonus (always good in PvP)
- Passive Crit damage bonus (week 3 rework)
- Passive that turns staff heavy attacks into mini Siphoning Attacks activations, restoring both mag and stam

This is a line that is now worth considering on it's own without corrosive (any version of corrosive). Week 1 PTS saw this line (and corrosive) being used everywhere despite the massive hype around Draconic Power and corrosive "only" having an 8% damage cap, not the live 3% and the only ultimate on par with it was Onslaught that was also corrosive, but gave mechanical acuity 5 piece on top of it. Even the giga-buffed Draconic Power line was being sub-classed out for a other lines while keeping Earthen Heart despite DP having better warden wings, leap, minor brutality, battle roar, coag that was now AoE and a bugged flame breath that allowed channeling it for a free beam while casting other abilities.

Something had to give on this line and corrosive being the outlier was the obvious choice. Personally, I would have preferred the damage taken cap to just go away from the corrosive morph specifically and reduce (not remove) the DoT damage for PvP (half the buffed DoT value but give it a "deals double (or more) damage against monsters" modifier to keep it as per week 1 or stronger for PvE) and give it a reduced cost (down to say ~150).
Let the morphs determine if it's a defensive ultimate (magma) or an offensive one (corrosive), that way both are strong for their intended use-cases, but neither will be a best of both worlds instant win button that we saw on weeks 1&2 on PTS.

This is not accurate, I have several builds on Live making excellent use of Earthen Heart and Corrosive as it can be used to give you an offensive window in outnumbered/group fights, as outlined in the original post. This is no longer possible with the new damage taken value, also outlined on original post.

Listing some other skill lines that are currently considered D or F tier for most purposes (Green Balance is ok on a healer & Dark Magic can be ok) also isn't very convincing... I don't want Earthen Heart to be on that tier after "the great rework".

Corrosive is not considered a top tier 1v1 ultimate on Live (though it's still usable there), 1v1s being the only thing people could test on PTS. It also wasn't a top tier ultimate on PTS duels compared to alternatives (Onslaught, but also Incap and Crescent - just like on Live), just happens to be almost the only option for pure class DK, which is what almost everyone is testing on PTS.

Calling Corrosive an "instant win button" when I didn't die to it even once on PTS when turtling up with block, rallying cry and heal over times for the duration is wild.

Other counterplay includes simply kiting it, just like on Live.

As it stands with the upcoming changes, this ultimate will be dead (outside of ranged bombing) in every type of content.

In fact, on a PvP build you'll be better off looking at the Magma Shell morph and getting Balorgh+Major/Minor Breach - atleast you're still getting defensive value out of that one and some group utility with a 200 ulti barrier basically each cast

Is there other things you can make use of in Earthen Heart now? Yes, but they also nerfed Shattering Rocks significantly for outnumbered/group fights (buffed it for duels though). None of these things out value what was lost (for no reason) in Corrosive though. There isn't a world where DK deserves any nerfs to any aspect from its current state in this game's meta (Assassination, Animal Companions, Storm Calling, Aedric Spear, Restoring Light).

Also from just subclassing point of view, I feel like I have less reasons to go Earthen Heart than before since there's no good CC or ultimate anymore for fighting outnumbered. The only case where Earthen Heart feels appealing now as a subclass is on a heavy attack build for that off balance passive or some old school Max Magicka sorc to replace Daedric Summoning with.

Personofsecrets · January 26

Decimus wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I think you're undervaluing how impactful it is to have good ability (or broken mechanic) locked behind an otherwise dead skill line that is also competing for that sub-classed slot against an already generally (or perceived) superior line from that same class.

Lets look at a few non-Corrosive examples:
Dark Magic - This has Frags (an ability non-sorc mains often compare to spec bow) and dark deal (one of the best sustain tools in the game) and yet the only players I see sub-classing this line are sorc mains. This line also has to compete with Storm Calling.

Draconic Power - This has leap, the single ability in the game that has a higher base tooltip than spec bow and is AoE with a CC, yet nobody sub-classes this line. This line also has to compete with Ardent Flame.

Green Balance - Arguably one of the best support lines in the game, with access to the only stam burst heal in ESO and is 1 of only 2 sources of minor toughness in ESO (and the only source of it for group play), yet it's only sub-classed once per group for organized group comps or very niche support builds for small scale (duos) or PuG healing. This line also has to compete with Animal Companions.

Dawn's Wrath - Has arguably the best execute in the game as well as bubble (one of the best self HoTs in the game ticking every 0.5s instead of every 2s), good cost reduction passive (1 of only 2 passives that also includes ulti costs), minor sorcery and ulti gen, yet it's only seen in organized PvE on a dedicated execute build. This has to compete with Aedric Spear and Restoring Light.

Shadow - Has Arguably the most contentious ability in ESO (invis) that has seen complaints about it since the beginning of the game, also has Blur, one of the most overloaded self-defensive tools, and access to Major Resolve in a passive (free GCD + bar slot). This line also has to compete with Assassination.

Now if we look at Earthen Heart (the line with corrosive):
Earthen Heart - A mediocre line (for PvP), despite having an ultimate that is essentially 10+ seconds of god-mode alongside the best (non-bugged) CC in the game (fossilize) and one of the better sustain passives (battle roar), yet is almost never sub-classed because nothing else (currently) is worth using from that line, also it has to compete with Ardent Flame for the line taken from DK that grants whip (melee spec bow), FoO (cauterize is still an insane heal), noxious (breach), burning embers (DoT/HoT) and standard (for PvE DPS).

Despite what some people (not in this thread) have tried to claim in the past (especially with Frags), 1 skill (sometimes even a few skills) is not enough to carry an entire skill line, especially if there is an already superior skill line from the same class that said skill line needs to compete against when decided to sub-class.

Earthen Heart and Corrosive (before the reworks) are just another example of this 1-2 good abilities on an otherwise mid/bad line.

Post reworks though and even post week 3 adjustments, Earthen Heart as a whole line is actually a line worth looking into, and not just for corrosive:
- Unique 10% damage done (although this could ramp up faster and fall off slower)
- Armor buff with AoE DoT + mini draugrkin (5 piece set that is currently very strong)
- Damage shield that's even stronger than U41 Hardened Ward
- Longest lasting group damage buff that's also a mini Way of Fire (5 piece set that was meta a couple of years ago)
- CC that's arguably even stronger now since it can be delayed to land the CC right as you go for the burst
- Passive Armor bonus (always good in PvP)
- Passive Crit damage bonus (week 3 rework)
- Passive that turns staff heavy attacks into mini Siphoning Attacks activations, restoring both mag and stam

This is a line that is now worth considering on it's own without corrosive (any version of corrosive). Week 1 PTS saw this line (and corrosive) being used everywhere despite the massive hype around Draconic Power and corrosive "only" having an 8% damage cap, not the live 3% and the only ultimate on par with it was Onslaught that was also corrosive, but gave mechanical acuity 5 piece on top of it. Even the giga-buffed Draconic Power line was being sub-classed out for a other lines while keeping Earthen Heart despite DP having better warden wings, leap, minor brutality, battle roar, coag that was now AoE and a bugged flame breath that allowed channeling it for a free beam while casting other abilities.

Something had to give on this line and corrosive being the outlier was the obvious choice. Personally, I would have preferred the damage taken cap to just go away from the corrosive morph specifically and reduce (not remove) the DoT damage for PvP (half the buffed DoT value but give it a "deals double (or more) damage against monsters" modifier to keep it as per week 1 or stronger for PvE) and give it a reduced cost (down to say ~150).
Let the morphs determine if it's a defensive ultimate (magma) or an offensive one (corrosive), that way both are strong for their intended use-cases, but neither will be a best of both worlds instant win button that we saw on weeks 1&2 on PTS.

This is not accurate, I have several builds on Live making excellent use of Earthen Heart and Corrosive as it can be used to give you an offensive window in outnumbered/group fights, as outlined in the original post. This is no longer possible with the new damage taken value, also outlined on original post.

Listing some other skill lines that are currently considered D or F tier for most purposes (Green Balance is ok on a healer & Dark Magic can be ok) also isn't very convincing... I don't want Earthen Heart to be on that tier after "the great rework".

Corrosive is not considered a top tier 1v1 ultimate on Live (though it's still usable there), 1v1s being the only thing people could test on PTS. It also wasn't a top tier ultimate on PTS duels compared to alternatives (Onslaught, but also Incap and Crescent - just like on Live), just happens to be almost the only option for pure class DK, which is what almost everyone is testing on PTS.

Calling Corrosive an "instant win button" when I didn't die to it even once on PTS when turtling up with block, rallying cry and heal over times for the duration is wild.

Other counterplay includes simply kiting it, just like on Live.

As it stands with the upcoming changes, this ultimate will be dead (outside of ranged bombing) in every type of content.

In fact, on a PvP build you'll be better off looking at the Magma Shell morph and getting Balorgh+Major/Minor Breach - atleast you're still getting defensive value out of that one and some group utility with a 200 ulti barrier basically each cast

Is there other things you can make use of in Earthen Heart now? Yes, but they also nerfed Shattering Rocks significantly for outnumbered/group fights (buffed it for duels though). None of these things out value what was lost (for no reason) in Corrosive though. There isn't a world where DK deserves any nerfs to any aspect from its current state in this game's meta (Assassination, Animal Companions, Storm Calling, Aedric Spear, Restoring Light).

Also from just subclassing point of view, I feel like I have less reasons to go Earthen Heart than before since there's no good CC or ultimate anymore for fighting outnumbered. The only case where Earthen Heart feels appealing now as a subclass is on a heavy attack build for that off balance passive or some old school Max Magicka sorc to replace Daedric Summoning with.

It's funny too that DK has two ultimate abilities that can just be ran away from.

I've been playing Pure DK for midyear and had to put corrosive back on my bar since the players who know what they are doing can chase me with hyper speed from 50 meters away and kill me within 5 seconds if I don't use magma. That's even despite my 40k armor.

And for those who engage me with magma up, they figure it out within a couple seconds and then zip away to wait out it's duration. Some players can even tank out the damage that I put out with corrosive up which is neat since they not only have hyper speed and hyper damage, but also hyper survivability against me at least. The only one who I did manage to kill jumped after me only to get trapped under some stairs with me.

What Corrosive does excel at is increasing enemies time to kill to be enough time that I can usually use Tim's to port out of IC. It's funny that the port out is being changed now too. That is a huge nerf to DK survivability. I don't even care about stones most of the time. Everyone else survives in the cheesiest of ways - why shouldn't I? And even without the port oit change, taking 12% damage would probably be enough to still get smoked. So either way...

The hottest part of DK is that it's hot garbage. I've seen time and time again where DKs get pressured and can't do anything at all. I had to stop fighting a DK yesterday after they dropped during a medium length fight to 1k health. I just thought "what am I doing?" "Why am I picking on a DK. They deserve a break (fot being the worst class)."

I highly doubt that the designers have DK at some kind of metric and that every other class is going to be brought down to the DK level. Imagine the outcry if Sorc lost streak or something. The changes underway just amount to picking on the little guy. Unlike me in that fight with the DK, the designers can't find it within themselves to just be kind.

I'd probably pay up to $500 for a class change token at this point.

MincMincMinc · January 26

I'm more surprised how nobody seems to be complaining that take flight lost what 10% damage.......Now we can truly say that merciless resolve is the highest hitting ult in the game.

Except its not an ult, its a 5s cooldown skill that can be shot twice while also giving a heal, major buff on both bars, and bonus passives.

Personofsecrets · January 26

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I'm more surprised how nobody seems to be complaining that take flight lost what 10% damage.......Now we can truly say that merciless resolve is the highest hitting ult in the game.

Except its not an ult, its a 5s cooldown skill that can be shot twice while also giving a heal, major buff on both bars, and bonus passives.

I wonder if thete will be enough crying to prevent any changes to that skill. DK is so mediocre that there aren't enough players invested into it as to form any meaningful resistance to change.

Logically speaking, they should nerf NB, but the cynic in me informs that the rest of the classes will get buffs.

MincMincMinc · January 26

Personofsecrets wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I'm more surprised how nobody seems to be complaining that take flight lost what 10% damage.......Now we can truly say that merciless resolve is the highest hitting ult in the game.

Except its not an ult, its a 5s cooldown skill that can be shot twice while also giving a heal, major buff on both bars, and bonus passives.

I wonder if thete will be enough crying to prevent any changes to that skill. DK is so mediocre that there aren't enough players invested into it as to form any meaningful resistance to change.

Logically speaking, they should nerf NB, but the cynic in me informs that the rest of the classes will get buffs.

All us sorc mains waiting for zos to slap on cooldowns or something stupid onto streak. Meanwhile half the builds in pvp now adays are fast enough people practically outrun streak.

Hopefully they just make streak only stun and do damage at the final location like how vengeance was. Personally I'd rather have Streak do stun at the final and have BoL do the stun at the initial location like how it used to be. The current BoL is terrible for escaping because people can literally just sprint and match your speed in most instances of cyrodil.

Major_Toughness · January 26

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I'm more surprised how nobody seems to be complaining that take flight lost what 10% damage.......Now we can truly say that merciless resolve is the highest hitting ult in the game.

Except its not an ult, its a 5s cooldown skill that can be shot twice while also giving a heal, major buff on both bars, and bonus passives.

I wonder if thete will be enough crying to prevent any changes to that skill. DK is so mediocre that there aren't enough players invested into it as to form any meaningful resistance to change.

Logically speaking, they should nerf NB, but the cynic in me informs that the rest of the classes will get buffs.

All us sorc mains waiting for zos to slap on cooldowns or something stupid onto streak. Meanwhile half the builds in pvp now adays are fast enough people practically outrun streak.

Hopefully they just make streak only stun and do damage at the final location like how vengeance was. Personally I'd rather have Streak do stun at the final and have BoL do the stun at the initial location like how it used to be. The current BoL is terrible for escaping because people can literally just sprint and match your speed in most instances of cyrodil.

Literally not true.

I can kite groups of 12 people, some with gapclosers, just with Streak and Minor Expedition, no other movement speed buffs.

All you sorc mains just keep playing down the skill because you hope it will lead to buffs in the future. I'm just glad that - so far - it''s been ignored.

Such bad faith arguments all because your class which was S-Tier for 7 years is now A/B Tier.
It's basically impossible to play in Cyrodiil solo without Streak/BoL, because it is that strong.

MincMincMinc · January 26

Major_Toughness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I'm more surprised how nobody seems to be complaining that take flight lost what 10% damage.......Now we can truly say that merciless resolve is the highest hitting ult in the game.

Except its not an ult, its a 5s cooldown skill that can be shot twice while also giving a heal, major buff on both bars, and bonus passives.

I wonder if thete will be enough crying to prevent any changes to that skill. DK is so mediocre that there aren't enough players invested into it as to form any meaningful resistance to change.

Logically speaking, they should nerf NB, but the cynic in me informs that the rest of the classes will get buffs.

All us sorc mains waiting for zos to slap on cooldowns or something stupid onto streak. Meanwhile half the builds in pvp now adays are fast enough people practically outrun streak.

Hopefully they just make streak only stun and do damage at the final location like how vengeance was. Personally I'd rather have Streak do stun at the final and have BoL do the stun at the initial location like how it used to be. The current BoL is terrible for escaping because people can literally just sprint and match your speed in most instances of cyrodil.

Literally not true.

I can kite groups of 12 people, some with gapclosers, just with Streak and Minor Expedition, no other movement speed buffs.

All you sorc mains just keep playing down the skill because you hope it will lead to buffs in the future. I'm just glad that - so far - it''s been ignored.

Such bad faith arguments all because your class which was S-Tier for 7 years is now A/B Tier.
It's basically impossible to play in Cyrodiil solo without Streak/BoL, because it is that strong.

Yeah I wasn't saying its impossible to outrun a toddler in eso nor was I asking for buffs......I was even saying how it should be nerfed because of how absurd the triple aoe damage stun works.

Decimus · January 26

Patch notes are out and still not communication on why developers thought the PvP nerfs to Molten Whip and Corrosive were necessary.

If this is based on some PTS 1v1s I'd like to remind everyone that almost everyone is playing DK and testing DK abilities... so of course you're going to hear and see feedback about X DK skill being "overpowered" etc and less about other abilities that exist on Live, when those haven't gotten any weaker and will still one shot people (DK or not) just like on Live. Talking about Incaps, Crescent Sweeps, Bow Procs, Shalks etc just to be clear.

MXVIIDREAM · January 27

Decimus wrote: »

Patch notes are out and still not communication on why developers thought the PvP nerfs to Molten Whip and Corrosive were necessary.

If this is based on some PTS 1v1s I'd like to remind everyone that almost everyone is playing DK and testing DK abilities... so of course you're going to hear and see feedback about X DK skill being "overpowered" etc and less about other abilities that exist on Live, when those haven't gotten any weaker and will still one shot people (DK or not) just like on Live. Talking about Incaps, Crescent Sweeps, Bow Procs, Shalks etc just to be clear.

Absolutely no plausible reason they done that to molten whip it felt great now it’s so much weaker there’s a lot of negative feedback about it so I’m praying the change it back
Hope they make it 10% crit damage and healing with the new passive would help healers a lot imo

BardokRedSnow · January 27

So wrecking blow for dk will be meta, got it. Whip is dead, ggs.

Sad thing is I bet pve side still wont even be using it. Worthless change all around.

Decimus · January 27

Fully stacked Molten Whip on PTS (one charge, 2k higher tooltip)

Power Lash (5 charges, 2k lower tooltip, AoE around target, includes a burst heal and non-proc version has a small heal as well worth around a Vigor tick)

...now that Molten Whip doesn't buff other abilities (including heals) anymore with +300 Weapon/Spell Damage, what rational reason remains for using this morph in PvP?

Seems like vastly inferior to Flame Lash now in PvP, especially considering you can now hold on to the Flame Lash stacks for almost the entire duration of opponents Off Balance immunity (or the entire duration, depending on when you proc it).

I think Molten Whip needs another incentive to use it in PvP and to compete with the other morph.

I wouldn't increase the burst damage further, but perhaps every time you generate a Seething Fury stack there could be a burst heal for example? Perhaps half, or one third of what Flame Lash heals for because Seething Fury stacks from any DK ability used. This would also give you an interesting decision to make: hold on to stacks for burst but lose healing while holding on to them, or spend the stacks and get a bit more heals over the next few globals as your Seething Fury stacks up.

This would also help DKs survive with the massive nerfs to Corrosive, though I'd rather see Corrosive changes rolled back to how it is on Live (if you make it give Crit Chance instead of Penetration in PvE you can make it usable there).

MXVIIDREAM · January 27

Decimus wrote: »

Fully stacked Molten Whip on PTS (one charge, 2k higher tooltip)

Power Lash (5 charges, 2k lower tooltip, AoE around target, includes a burst heal and non-proc version has a small heal as well worth around a Vigor tick)

...now that Molten Whip doesn't buff other abilities (including heals) anymore with +300 Weapon/Spell Damage, what rational reason remains for using this morph in PvP?

Seems like vastly inferior to Flame Lash now in PvP, especially considering you can now hold on to the Flame Lash stacks for almost the entire duration of opponents Off Balance immunity (or the entire duration, depending on when you proc it).

I think Molten Whip needs another incentive to use it in PvP and to compete with the other morph.

I wouldn't increase the burst damage further, but perhaps every time you generate a Seething Fury stack there could be a burst heal for example? Perhaps half, or one third of what Flame Lash heals for because Seething Fury stacks from any DK ability used. This would also give you an interesting decision to make: hold on to stacks for burst but lose healing while holding on to them, or spend the stacks and get a bit more heals over the next few globals as your Seething Fury stacks up.

This would also help DKs survive with the massive nerfs to Corrosive, though I'd rather see Corrosive changes rolled back to how it is on Live (if you make it give Crit Chance instead of Penetration in PvE you can make it usable there).

Appreciate that you’re trying to find a way around this but i feel like the only option is to putback that weapon and spell damage it was just the best way for it to function and add a big layer of burst to the class it really has dumbfounded me why they done it and we have been given no reason as to why but also the huge negative feedback I’ve seen in fairly sure they’re listening and will revert it

I think corrosive should go back to how it was when they first released this new version but lose that dot on players I don’t think we are far away from a great class but they really need to listen to the players for a long term happy player base

I also think either core of flame or the new incinerate from ardent flame desperately needs to be swapped for talons and put in the Draconic power skill line otherwise I think we are going to see the already burst heavy classes utilising another one of these delayed damage ability’s
Just to clarify there’s nothing wrong with either of them on a pure class but when combined with nb/warden this could become and issue moving one of them with talons should help a lot

BardokRedSnow · January 27

I think what they're going for annoyingly is to make more skills have a pvp morph and a pve morph, which really means ultimately less choices for both. In an underwhelming skill like standard of might, this wasn't a big deal as it was essentially already like this, you use shifting standard and really both are bad in pvp regardless, for the most part.

Them doing this to dk molten whip tho in a meta where hybridization of stamina and magicka has made molten whip a staple for many, now nerfs most dks because they gotta build even more into magicka to use flame lash for pvp, or lose out on using our iconic pvp spammable entirely.

Which really, really sucks. I can use other weapon skills instead but I much prefer to use ours. Mag dk hasn't been really meta in a very long time, this change wont bring it back and all around forcing pvp dk to have to use weapon skills again is just an overall backwards step in the very wrong direction. I loathe it, its annoying as hell, didn't expect this class refresh to be a nerf because of pve and overall just killed my enthusiasm between this change and also corrosive to boot.

So much for not looking to nerf.

Ratzkifal · January 27

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I think you're undervaluing how impactful it is to have good ability (or broken mechanic) locked behind an otherwise dead skill line that is also competing for that sub-classed slot against an already generally (or perceived) superior line from that same class.

Lets look at a few non-Corrosive examples:
Dark Magic - This has Frags (an ability non-sorc mains often compare to spec bow) and dark deal (one of the best sustain tools in the game) and yet the only players I see sub-classing this line are sorc mains. This line also has to compete with Storm Calling.

Draconic Power - This has leap, the single ability in the game that has a higher base tooltip than spec bow and is AoE with a CC, yet nobody sub-classes this line. This line also has to compete with Ardent Flame.

Green Balance - Arguably one of the best support lines in the game, with access to the only stam burst heal in ESO and is 1 of only 2 sources of minor toughness in ESO (and the only source of it for group play), yet it's only sub-classed once per group for organized group comps or very niche support builds for small scale (duos) or PuG healing. This line also has to compete with Animal Companions.

Dawn's Wrath - Has arguably the best execute in the game as well as bubble (one of the best self HoTs in the game ticking every 0.5s instead of every 2s), good cost reduction passive (1 of only 2 passives that also includes ulti costs), minor sorcery and ulti gen, yet it's only seen in organized PvE on a dedicated execute build. This has to compete with Aedric Spear and Restoring Light.

Shadow - Has Arguably the most contentious ability in ESO (invis) that has seen complaints about it since the beginning of the game, also has Blur, one of the most overloaded self-defensive tools, and access to Major Resolve in a passive (free GCD + bar slot). This line also has to compete with Assassination.

Now if we look at Earthen Heart (the line with corrosive):
Earthen Heart - A mediocre line (for PvP), despite having an ultimate that is essentially 10+ seconds of god-mode alongside the best (non-bugged) CC in the game (fossilize) and one of the better sustain passives (battle roar), yet is almost never sub-classed because nothing else (currently) is worth using from that line, also it has to compete with Ardent Flame for the line taken from DK that grants whip (melee spec bow), FoO (cauterize is still an insane heal), noxious (breach), burning embers (DoT/HoT) and standard (for PvE DPS).

Despite what some people (not in this thread) have tried to claim in the past (especially with Frags), 1 skill (sometimes even a few skills) is not enough to carry an entire skill line, especially if there is an already superior skill line from the same class that said skill line needs to compete against when decided to sub-class.

Earthen Heart and Corrosive (before the reworks) are just another example of this 1-2 good abilities on an otherwise mid/bad line.

Post reworks though and even post week 3 adjustments, Earthen Heart as a whole line is actually a line worth looking into, and not just for corrosive:
- Unique 10% damage done (although this could ramp up faster and fall off slower)
- Armor buff with AoE DoT + mini draugrkin (5 piece set that is currently very strong)
- Damage shield that's even stronger than U41 Hardened Ward
- Longest lasting group damage buff that's also a mini Way of Fire (5 piece set that was meta a couple of years ago)
- CC that's arguably even stronger now since it can be delayed to land the CC right as you go for the burst
- Passive Armor bonus (always good in PvP)
- Passive Crit damage bonus (week 3 rework)
- Passive that turns staff heavy attacks into mini Siphoning Attacks activations, restoring both mag and stam

This is a line that is now worth considering on it's own without corrosive (any version of corrosive). Week 1 PTS saw this line (and corrosive) being used everywhere despite the massive hype around Draconic Power and corrosive "only" having an 8% damage cap, not the live 3% and the only ultimate on par with it was Onslaught that was also corrosive, but gave mechanical acuity 5 piece on top of it. Even the giga-buffed Draconic Power line was being sub-classed out for a other lines while keeping Earthen Heart despite DP having better warden wings, leap, minor brutality, battle roar, coag that was now AoE and a bugged flame breath that allowed channeling it for a free beam while casting other abilities.

Something had to give on this line and corrosive being the outlier was the obvious choice. Personally, I would have preferred the damage taken cap to just go away from the corrosive morph specifically and reduce (not remove) the DoT damage for PvP (half the buffed DoT value but give it a "deals double (or more) damage against monsters" modifier to keep it as per week 1 or stronger for PvE) and give it a reduced cost (down to say ~150).
Let the morphs determine if it's a defensive ultimate (magma) or an offensive one (corrosive), that way both are strong for their intended use-cases, but neither will be a best of both worlds instant win button that we saw on weeks 1&2 on PTS.

Anncedotally, I am currently subclassing Earthen Heart on Live on my Templar tank so I can get access to Magma Shell, benefit from the sustain passive (which is huge for tanking), provide minor brutality to the group through passives, gain a damage shield replacing my Sun Shield that also briefly gives me Major Mending (relevant for a Templar tank). In other words all the things why DK tanks were historically preferable to Templar tanks aside from Templar healers being vastly better than Dragonknight healers. Other than the damage shield and Magma Shell, all of this is going away in the PTS version of DK. I have less reason to subclass Earthen Heart and I'm certainly not going to use it anymore.
You could say that's mission accomplished, since part of the reason for the class refresh happening at all was the omnipresence and blatant superiority of subclassed builds over pure class.
But when also looking at my PvP DK build the story changes, because prior to week 3, I was very much able to keep my DK build the same, but with new incentives to switch off of stormcalling and back to Draconic Might, because many of the important passives had moved there, while Corrosive Armor was still the defensive ult of choice for me. Decimus put it well earlier - casting Corrosive in PvP is the DK saying "It's my turn now" and for the next 10s it would be. Fun, and definitely an important tool to have. Starting PTS week 3 it's looking like my DK will still subclass Storm Calling and instead give up Earthen Heart because I can get close to the same effect but much cheaper from using Onslaught that also allows me to build up ultimate again while it's active, while also losing little to no defensive power as Corrosive Armor simply doesn't provide any anymore. So no, mission is not accomplished. I'm still compelled to subclass, and while my dots are now more powerful thanks to the penetration changes, I now have to deal with people being able to dodge my Onslaught to deny me that penetration.
If you ask me, on PTS, Earthen Heart is not worth running without Corrosive being strong.

Personofsecrets · January 28

Earthen may be the new worst skill line.

hoangdz · January 28

Earthern Heart will be very competitive, and DK will be just fine.

Decimus · January 28

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Earthen may be the new worst skill line.

Nah, there's some serious competition for that title... the problem is that it might not be strong enough to replace subclassing, you'll have a lot of people drop it for Storm Calling or Restoring Light (or Aedric Spear/Animal Companions if they also drop Draconic and get armor buff somewhere) for sure, probably more than you'll see pure DKs after the "rework"... which in my books is a major fail for the next patch.

If Corrosive and Shattering Rocks weren't nerfed to the ground this might not be the case - oh well.

Personofsecrets · January 28

Decimus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Earthen may be the new worst skill line.

Nah, there's some serious competition for that title... the problem is that it might not be strong enough to replace subclassing, you'll have a lot of people drop it for Storm Calling or Restoring Light (or Aedric Spear/Animal Companions if they also drop Draconic and get armor buff somewhere) for sure, probably more than you'll see pure DKs after the "rework"... which in my books is a major fail for the next patch.

If Corrosive and Shattering Rocks weren't nerfed to the ground this might not be the case - oh well.

Another perspective is that there only has to be a single best skill line out of the 21 for sub-classing to be heavily encouraged.

I don't think that the design team is able to reach the razor thin line of balance needed for there not to be a best or even few best lines. I also don't believe that what is being done to DK makes the DK awesome or stand out.

I think they could have targeted best singular skills with nerfs if they wanted to balance pure vs sub classing. This way that they are doing things is having collateral damage. And to what end? So that DK can have it's own "identity" with a new channel? IDGI.

Turtle_Bot · 1:53AM

Ratzkifal wrote: »

If you ask me, on PTS, Earthen Heart is not worth running without Corrosive being strong.

Glad you acknowledged it was anecdotal (most try to hide such points as hard facts), I will add my own anecdotal point, to provide some additional perspective:

My live Sorc has no reason to ever sub-class current Earthen heart despite battle roar, corrosive, minor brutality, etc. since there are just so many better/more consistent options available, the shields are too small/don't do enough, and there is nothing in that line outside of corrosive that is interesting enough to make me want to sub-class into it.

Post PTS (week 1) Earthen Heart was going to be mandatory on every build, not only getting a solid line overall, but one of two mandatory ultimate options (the other being onslaught) to be able to compete in PvP.

Post PTS (week 3) Earthen Heart is still more than worth looking into and not just from a general power perspective, but even reviving the currently almost-dead shield-sorc builds, that make this line more than worth subbing out the daedric summoning line for, since I drop the useless (in PvP) pets, the nerfed Curse, nerfed Bound Aegis (no longer gives max stats) and a damage shield that no longer heals me and now I get:
- a spammable shield on par with U41 Hardened ward that heals for nearly twice as much and has unique mitigation as well
- an armor buff that includes a small version of the draugrkin set built in meaning I'm not forced to choose max mag sets for shields or draugrkin for DPS, I get both now
- free crit damage (something the build never had before and a week 3 addition)
- a mini siphoning attacks for extra (hybrid) sustain from my heavy attacks
- free bonus damage done (already agree this passive should build faster and drop slower, but it's still free damage)
- free bonus armor (replaces minor resolve lost from not having bound aegis, but also stacks with minor resolve if sourced elsewhere so double win)
- a reliable delayed CC that I can time with my burst or simply use to create additional pressure
- ult-gen (something the build never had before)
- a way to proc off-balance (something the build never had before)
- a second shield that buffs my healing (replacement for healing ward)
- Last but not least, I finally have a real back bar defensive ultimate (magma) for those oh-crap moments that also happens to help the group (if I'm in a group), which is something sorcerer has never had access to from it's class lines, ever (heal negate is too small of a heal) which on it's own allows me to stabilize and say "my turn now" even without the full pen aspect that corrosive has.

With post week 3 Earthen, the old PvP sorc shield build went from being forced into specific sets only, miss out on flexibility and options needed to fill large gaps in the build, and trying to make heavily nerfed/outdated/useless abilities work, to now having almost complete freedom in gear options (as long as there's some max mag somewhere there) fill in those missing gaps, and I get abilities that are more synergistic than, and as good as, or better than, the strongest versions of the abilities I swapped out.

For Group PvE, what I see happening is that DPS will take Draconic power for leap + flame breath instead of ardent for standard, thus minor brutality will naturally come from them instead and no need for the tank to have it. Therefore I can see Earthen shifting to a support (healer or support DD or pure DK DD) for groups that want the min-max of the new weaker stagger and some of the other tools in the line, and the tank now taking Ardent instead for searing claw (health based HoT that also grants sustain via passives) + new inhale (apparently is insane burst sustain) + standard (group wide weapon/spell damage buff + mitigation) + new ash cloud (healing + group buffs). The only thing lost in PvE is the group wide shield of magma (barrier replaces this if the support doesn't slot it) that, iirc, was clunky and rarely used due to the small radius on live anyway.

TL//DR of the spoiler above:
Earthen post PTS has a lot of reasons to use it, sure it's no longer perfect for some of it's existing use-cases (something that will happen with all refreshes imo), but it gains so many more use-cases for other builds.

NOTE: This doesn't mean I think the change ZOS made was perfect, far from it (I outlined what I would have liked to see done above, so won't repeat it again), but a strong corrosive on top of an already very usable line would only make Earthen mandatory to take and forced it into even more severe nerfs in the future (as a sorc main, I speak from lived experience on this and can only hope and pray that ZOS shows the same restraint when adjusting streak, limiting their harsh nerfs to 1 morph only, leaving the other similar to live).

If you ask me, on PTS, Earthen will be very much worth investigating/running/sub-classing into, even with nerfed Corrosive. The difference is that the line will now fit better for different builds than it used to fit with. It's lost it's use case as BiS line on group PvE tank builds, but gained strong use cases across other builds.

P.s. (just getting ahead of the trolls/disingenuous commenters here) before anyone tries to cry about "sorc main trying to get other classes nuked", back in U36/37, I put forward a rework idea thread for sorcerer that included big nerfs to streak to bring the rest of the kit up to par, proof that I am more than willing to make compromises and tone down overperforming abilities when it comes to fixing issues with a class/skill line as a whole, even my own main class.

ZhuJiuyin · 5:18AM

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

For Group PvE, ...... Therefore I can see Earthen shifting to a support (healer or support DD or pure DK DD) for groups that want the min-max of the new weaker stagger and some of the other tools in the line, ....

Here's some CMX data for PvE. This is what our team discussed about how to utilize New-Earthen Heart. We plan to have a support DPS use Banner Bearer, Magma Fist, and Colossus to provide additional buffs to the team. Also, since New-Earthen Heart itself has 10% critical strike damage, and Grave Lord provides penetration, we don't need to worry about the support DPS lacking critical strike damage and penetration.

The optimized Magma Fist makes this build very easy to use. And because Banner Bearer occupies 2 slots and Concealed Weapon occupies 1 slot, there are 3 skills that don't require much attention. Additionally, this build has very abundant resources, rarely falling below 50%.

I think New-Earthen Heart is excellent enough for PvE. Although it's not a strong PDS line, it provides enough support capabilities and adds to the characteristics of DK.

hoangdz · 8:53AM

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

If you ask me, on PTS, Earthen Heart is not worth running without Corrosive being strong.

Glad you acknowledged it was anecdotal (most try to hide such points as hard facts), I will add my own anecdotal point, to provide some additional perspective:
My live Sorc has no reason to ever sub-class current Earthen heart despite battle roar, corrosive, minor brutality, etc. since there are just so many better/more consistent options available, the shields are too small/don't do enough, and there is nothing in that line outside of corrosive that is interesting enough to make me want to sub-class into it.

Post PTS (week 1) Earthen Heart was going to be mandatory on every build, not only getting a solid line overall, but one of two mandatory ultimate options (the other being onslaught) to be able to compete in PvP.

Post PTS (week 3) Earthen Heart is still more than worth looking into and not just from a general power perspective, but even reviving the currently almost-dead shield-sorc builds, that make this line more than worth subbing out the daedric summoning line for, since I drop the useless (in PvP) pets, the nerfed Curse, nerfed Bound Aegis (no longer gives max stats) and a damage shield that no longer heals me and now I get:
- a spammable shield on par with U41 Hardened ward that heals for nearly twice as much and has unique mitigation as well
- an armor buff that includes a small version of the draugrkin set built in meaning I'm not forced to choose max mag sets for shields or draugrkin for DPS, I get both now
- free crit damage (something the build never had before and a week 3 addition)
- a mini siphoning attacks for extra (hybrid) sustain from my heavy attacks
- free bonus damage done (already agree this passive should build faster and drop slower, but it's still free damage)
- free bonus armor (replaces minor resolve lost from not having bound aegis, but also stacks with minor resolve if sourced elsewhere so double win)
- a reliable delayed CC that I can time with my burst or simply use to create additional pressure
- ult-gen (something the build never had before)
- a way to proc off-balance (something the build never had before)
- a second shield that buffs my healing (replacement for healing ward)
- Last but not least, I finally have a real back bar defensive ultimate (magma) for those oh-crap moments that also happens to help the group (if I'm in a group), which is something sorcerer has never had access to from it's class lines, ever (heal negate is too small of a heal) which on it's own allows me to stabilize and say "my turn now" even without the full pen aspect that corrosive has.

With post week 3 Earthen, the old PvP sorc shield build went from being forced into specific sets only, miss out on flexibility and options needed to fill large gaps in the build, and trying to make heavily nerfed/outdated/useless abilities work, to now having almost complete freedom in gear options (as long as there's some max mag somewhere there) fill in those missing gaps, and I get abilities that are more synergistic than, and as good as, or better than, the strongest versions of the abilities I swapped out.

For Group PvE, what I see happening is that DPS will take Draconic power for leap + flame breath instead of ardent for standard, thus minor brutality will naturally come from them instead and no need for the tank to have it. Therefore I can see Earthen shifting to a support (healer or support DD or pure DK DD) for groups that want the min-max of the new weaker stagger and some of the other tools in the line, and the tank now taking Ardent instead for searing claw (health based HoT that also grants sustain via passives) + new inhale (apparently is insane burst sustain) + standard (group wide weapon/spell damage buff + mitigation) + new ash cloud (healing + group buffs). The only thing lost in PvE is the group wide shield of magma (barrier replaces this if the support doesn't slot it) that, iirc, was clunky and rarely used due to the small radius on live anyway.
TL//DR of the spoiler above:
Earthen post PTS has a lot of reasons to use it, sure it's no longer perfect for some of it's existing use-cases (something that will happen with all refreshes imo), but it gains so many more use-cases for other builds.

NOTE: This doesn't mean I think the change ZOS made was perfect, far from it (I outlined what I would have liked to see done above, so won't repeat it again), but a strong corrosive on top of an already very usable line would only make Earthen mandatory to take and forced it into even more severe nerfs in the future (as a sorc main, I speak from lived experience on this and can only hope and pray that ZOS shows the same restraint when adjusting streak, limiting their harsh nerfs to 1 morph only, leaving the other similar to live).

If you ask me, on PTS, Earthen will be very much worth investigating/running/sub-classing into, even with nerfed Corrosive. The difference is that the line will now fit better for different builds than it used to fit with. It's lost it's use case as BiS line on group PvE tank builds, but gained strong use cases across other builds.

P.s. (just getting ahead of the trolls/disingenuous commenters here) before anyone tries to cry about "sorc main trying to get other classes nuked", back in U36/37, I put forward a rework idea thread for sorcerer that included big nerfs to streak to bring the rest of the kit up to par, proof that I am more than willing to make compromises and tone down overperforming abilities when it comes to fixing issues with a class/skill line as a whole, even my own main class.

Don't forget that apart from scaling with max magicka, Volcanic Ash also scales with MAX STAM as well instead of max health:

Superheated Ward (originally Stonefist): This is now a Magicka ability that grants you or an ally a sizable damage shield, scaling off your Max Magicka or Stamina. Increased the cost to 4590 at base.

This has been something us stam sorc mains have been asking for. I have always wanted to run a max stam build with stam-scaling shields, but instead they gave it to DK lol. Regardless, I'm definitely excited to drop Daedric Summoning for Earthern Heart and build into max stam.

MXVIIDREAM · 10:01AM

Bit of a shame they was giving lots of communication at the start of the Dragonknights refresh but since dropping these new changes they’re have seemingly gone mia no updates to anything said in any of the threads regarding what’s been said by a lot of the community