Decimus wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I think you're undervaluing how impactful it is to have good ability (or broken mechanic) locked behind an otherwise dead skill line that is also competing for that sub-classed slot against an already generally (or perceived) superior line from that same class.

Lets look at a few non-Corrosive examples:

Dark Magic - This has Frags (an ability non-sorc mains often compare to spec bow) and dark deal (one of the best sustain tools in the game) and yet the only players I see sub-classing this line are sorc mains. This line also has to compete with Storm Calling.

Draconic Power - This has leap, the single ability in the game that has a higher base tooltip than spec bow and is AoE with a CC, yet nobody sub-classes this line. This line also has to compete with Ardent Flame.

Green Balance - Arguably one of the best support lines in the game, with access to the only stam burst heal in ESO and is 1 of only 2 sources of minor toughness in ESO (and the only source of it for group play), yet it's only sub-classed once per group for organized group comps or very niche support builds for small scale (duos) or PuG healing. This line also has to compete with Animal Companions.

Dawn's Wrath - Has arguably the best execute in the game as well as bubble (one of the best self HoTs in the game ticking every 0.5s instead of every 2s), good cost reduction passive (1 of only 2 passives that also includes ulti costs), minor sorcery and ulti gen, yet it's only seen in organized PvE on a dedicated execute build. This has to compete with Aedric Spear and Restoring Light.

Shadow - Has Arguably the most contentious ability in ESO (invis) that has seen complaints about it since the beginning of the game, also has Blur, one of the most overloaded self-defensive tools, and access to Major Resolve in a passive (free GCD + bar slot). This line also has to compete with Assassination.

Now if we look at Earthen Heart (the line with corrosive):
Earthen Heart - A mediocre line (for PvP), despite having an ultimate that is essentially 10+ seconds of god-mode alongside the best (non-bugged) CC in the game (fossilize) and one of the better sustain passives (battle roar), yet is almost never sub-classed because nothing else (currently) is worth using from that line, also it has to compete with Ardent Flame for the line taken from DK that grants whip (melee spec bow), FoO (cauterize is still an insane heal), noxious (breach), burning embers (DoT/HoT) and standard (for PvE DPS).

Despite what some people (not in this thread) have tried to claim in the past (especially with Frags), 1 skill (sometimes even a few skills) is not enough to carry an entire skill line, especially if there is an already superior skill line from the same class that said skill line needs to compete against when decided to sub-class.

Earthen Heart and Corrosive (before the reworks) are just another example of this 1-2 good abilities on an otherwise mid/bad line.

Post reworks though and even post week 3 adjustments, Earthen Heart as a whole line is actually a line worth looking into, and not just for corrosive:

- Unique 10% damage done (although this could ramp up faster and fall off slower)
- Armor buff with AoE DoT + mini draugrkin (5 piece set that is currently very strong)
- Damage shield that's even stronger than U41 Hardened Ward
- Longest lasting group damage buff that's also a mini Way of Fire (5 piece set that was meta a couple of years ago)
- CC that's arguably even stronger now since it can be delayed to land the CC right as you go for the burst
- Passive Armor bonus (always good in PvP)
- Passive Crit damage bonus (week 3 rework)
- Passive that turns staff heavy attacks into mini Siphoning Attacks activations, restoring both mag and stam

This is a line that is now worth considering on it's own without corrosive (any version of corrosive). Week 1 PTS saw this line (and corrosive) being used everywhere despite the massive hype around Draconic Power and corrosive "only" having an 8% damage cap, not the live 3% and the only ultimate on par with it was Onslaught that was also corrosive, but gave mechanical acuity 5 piece on top of it. Even the giga-buffed Draconic Power line was being sub-classed out for a other lines while keeping Earthen Heart despite DP having better warden wings, leap, minor brutality, battle roar, coag that was now AoE and a bugged flame breath that allowed channeling it for a free beam while casting other abilities.

Something had to give on this line and corrosive being the outlier was the obvious choice. Personally, I would have preferred the damage taken cap to just go away from the corrosive morph specifically and reduce (not remove) the DoT damage for PvP (half the buffed DoT value but give it a "deals double (or more) damage against monsters" modifier to keep it as per week 1 or stronger for PvE) and give it a reduced cost (down to say ~150).
Let the morphs determine if it's a defensive ultimate (magma) or an offensive one (corrosive), that way both are strong for their intended use-cases, but neither will be a best of both worlds instant win button that we saw on weeks 1&2 on PTS.

This is not accurate, I have several builds on Live making excellent use of Earthen Heart and Corrosive as it can be used to give you an offensive window in outnumbered/group fights, as outlined in the original post. This is no longer possible with the new damage taken value, also outlined on original post.

Listing some other skill lines that are currently considered D or F tier for most purposes (Green Balance is ok on a healer & Dark Magic can be ok) also isn't very convincing... I don't want Earthen Heart to be on that tier after "the great rework".


Corrosive is not considered a top tier 1v1 ultimate on Live (though it's still usable there), 1v1s being the only thing people could test on PTS. It also wasn't a top tier ultimate on PTS duels compared to alternatives (Onslaught, but also Incap and Crescent - just like on Live), just happens to be almost the only option for pure class DK, which is what almost everyone is testing on PTS.

Calling Corrosive an "instant win button" when I didn't die to it even once on PTS when turtling up with block, rallying cry and heal over times for the duration is wild.

Other counterplay includes simply kiting it, just like on Live.


As it stands with the upcoming changes, this ultimate will be dead (outside of ranged bombing) in every type of content.

In fact, on a PvP build you'll be better off looking at the Magma Shell morph and getting Balorgh+Major/Minor Breach - atleast you're still getting defensive value out of that one and some group utility with a 200 ulti barrier basically each cast

Is there other things you can make use of in Earthen Heart now? Yes, but they also nerfed Shattering Rocks significantly for outnumbered/group fights (buffed it for duels though). None of these things out value what was lost (for no reason) in Corrosive though. There isn't a world where DK deserves any nerfs to any aspect from its current state in this game's meta (Assassination, Animal Companions, Storm Calling, Aedric Spear, Restoring Light).

Also from just subclassing point of view, I feel like I have less reasons to go Earthen Heart than before since there's no good CC or ultimate anymore for fighting outnumbered. The only case where Earthen Heart feels appealing now as a subclass is on a heavy attack build for that off balance passive or some old school Max Magicka sorc to replace Daedric Summoning with.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I'm more surprised how nobody seems to be complaining that take flight lost what 10% damage.......Now we can truly say that merciless resolve is the highest hitting ult in the game.

Except its not an ult, its a 5s cooldown skill that can be shot twice while also giving a heal, major buff on both bars, and bonus passives.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I'm more surprised how nobody seems to be complaining that take flight lost what 10% damage.......Now we can truly say that merciless resolve is the highest hitting ult in the game.

Except its not an ult, its a 5s cooldown skill that can be shot twice while also giving a heal, major buff on both bars, and bonus passives.

I wonder if thete will be enough crying to prevent any changes to that skill. DK is so mediocre that there aren't enough players invested into it as to form any meaningful resistance to change.

Logically speaking, they should nerf NB, but the cynic in me informs that the rest of the classes will get buffs.

All us sorc mains waiting for zos to slap on cooldowns or something stupid onto streak. Meanwhile half the builds in pvp now adays are fast enough people practically outrun streak.

Hopefully they just make streak only stun and do damage at the final location like how vengeance was. Personally I'd rather have Streak do stun at the final and have BoL do the stun at the initial location like how it used to be. The current BoL is terrible for escaping because people can literally just sprint and match your speed in most instances of cyrodil.

Decimus wrote: »

Fully stacked Molten Whip on PTS (one charge, 2k higher tooltip)

Power Lash (5 charges, 2k lower tooltip, AoE around target, includes a burst heal and non-proc version has a small heal as well worth around a Vigor tick)



...now that Molten Whip doesn't buff other abilities (including heals) anymore with +300 Weapon/Spell Damage, what rational reason remains for using this morph in PvP?

Seems like vastly inferior to Flame Lash now in PvP, especially considering you can now hold on to the Flame Lash stacks for almost the entire duration of opponents Off Balance immunity (or the entire duration, depending on when you proc it).


I think Molten Whip needs another incentive to use it in PvP and to compete with the other morph.

I wouldn't increase the burst damage further, but perhaps every time you generate a Seething Fury stack there could be a burst heal for example? Perhaps half, or one third of what Flame Lash heals for because Seething Fury stacks from any DK ability used. This would also give you an interesting decision to make: hold on to stacks for burst but lose healing while holding on to them, or spend the stacks and get a bit more heals over the next few globals as your Seething Fury stacks up.


This would also help DKs survive with the massive nerfs to Corrosive, though I'd rather see Corrosive changes rolled back to how it is on Live (if you make it give Crit Chance instead of Penetration in PvE you can make it usable there).

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I think you're undervaluing how impactful it is to have good ability (or broken mechanic) locked behind an otherwise dead skill line that is also competing for that sub-classed slot against an already generally (or perceived) superior line from that same class.

Lets look at a few non-Corrosive examples:

Dark Magic - This has Frags (an ability non-sorc mains often compare to spec bow) and dark deal (one of the best sustain tools in the game) and yet the only players I see sub-classing this line are sorc mains. This line also has to compete with Storm Calling.

Draconic Power - This has leap, the single ability in the game that has a higher base tooltip than spec bow and is AoE with a CC, yet nobody sub-classes this line. This line also has to compete with Ardent Flame.

Green Balance - Arguably one of the best support lines in the game, with access to the only stam burst heal in ESO and is 1 of only 2 sources of minor toughness in ESO (and the only source of it for group play), yet it's only sub-classed once per group for organized group comps or very niche support builds for small scale (duos) or PuG healing. This line also has to compete with Animal Companions.

Dawn's Wrath - Has arguably the best execute in the game as well as bubble (one of the best self HoTs in the game ticking every 0.5s instead of every 2s), good cost reduction passive (1 of only 2 passives that also includes ulti costs), minor sorcery and ulti gen, yet it's only seen in organized PvE on a dedicated execute build. This has to compete with Aedric Spear and Restoring Light.

Shadow - Has Arguably the most contentious ability in ESO (invis) that has seen complaints about it since the beginning of the game, also has Blur, one of the most overloaded self-defensive tools, and access to Major Resolve in a passive (free GCD + bar slot). This line also has to compete with Assassination.

Now if we look at Earthen Heart (the line with corrosive):
Earthen Heart - A mediocre line (for PvP), despite having an ultimate that is essentially 10+ seconds of god-mode alongside the best (non-bugged) CC in the game (fossilize) and one of the better sustain passives (battle roar), yet is almost never sub-classed because nothing else (currently) is worth using from that line, also it has to compete with Ardent Flame for the line taken from DK that grants whip (melee spec bow), FoO (cauterize is still an insane heal), noxious (breach), burning embers (DoT/HoT) and standard (for PvE DPS).

Despite what some people (not in this thread) have tried to claim in the past (especially with Frags), 1 skill (sometimes even a few skills) is not enough to carry an entire skill line, especially if there is an already superior skill line from the same class that said skill line needs to compete against when decided to sub-class.

Earthen Heart and Corrosive (before the reworks) are just another example of this 1-2 good abilities on an otherwise mid/bad line.

Post reworks though and even post week 3 adjustments, Earthen Heart as a whole line is actually a line worth looking into, and not just for corrosive:

- Unique 10% damage done (although this could ramp up faster and fall off slower)
- Armor buff with AoE DoT + mini draugrkin (5 piece set that is currently very strong)
- Damage shield that's even stronger than U41 Hardened Ward
- Longest lasting group damage buff that's also a mini Way of Fire (5 piece set that was meta a couple of years ago)
- CC that's arguably even stronger now since it can be delayed to land the CC right as you go for the burst
- Passive Armor bonus (always good in PvP)
- Passive Crit damage bonus (week 3 rework)
- Passive that turns staff heavy attacks into mini Siphoning Attacks activations, restoring both mag and stam

This is a line that is now worth considering on it's own without corrosive (any version of corrosive). Week 1 PTS saw this line (and corrosive) being used everywhere despite the massive hype around Draconic Power and corrosive "only" having an 8% damage cap, not the live 3% and the only ultimate on par with it was Onslaught that was also corrosive, but gave mechanical acuity 5 piece on top of it. Even the giga-buffed Draconic Power line was being sub-classed out for a other lines while keeping Earthen Heart despite DP having better warden wings, leap, minor brutality, battle roar, coag that was now AoE and a bugged flame breath that allowed channeling it for a free beam while casting other abilities.

Something had to give on this line and corrosive being the outlier was the obvious choice. Personally, I would have preferred the damage taken cap to just go away from the corrosive morph specifically and reduce (not remove) the DoT damage for PvP (half the buffed DoT value but give it a "deals double (or more) damage against monsters" modifier to keep it as per week 1 or stronger for PvE) and give it a reduced cost (down to say ~150).
Let the morphs determine if it's a defensive ultimate (magma) or an offensive one (corrosive), that way both are strong for their intended use-cases, but neither will be a best of both worlds instant win button that we saw on weeks 1&2 on PTS.