Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I wish this was taken more to heart, but the community has steadily become more and more toxic towards casual players and even solo players, or simply those who don't want to play 100% meta. The feedback thread for the Night Market shows this even stronger, and the devs honestly feel a little out of touch about the average skill level of the playerbase as a whole, if we consider both the Night Market in it's current state, AND the difficulty settings of that new Overland Difficulty mode (600% more damage received!! What in the world lol)

Likewise, people won’t give group content a chance and label us all as toxic and elitist and want content we find enjoyable to be nerfed/no longer added.

It’s a self-fufilling prophecy. Casuals meet endgame and get mad at meta, endgame meets casuals and get mad they refuse to improve. Neither side is a victim, neither side is an oppressor. I wish we could all just hold hands in friendship but the first step is realizing the us versus them mentality on both sides is what’s causing our suffering.

The whole “casuals hate group content and want it nerfed just because it exists” thing is such a caricature. Almost no one is out here trying to delete raids or high-end stuff forever. What actually gets people upset is the gatekeeping, the public shaming in group finder, the “parse gray = trash” attitude, or the loud insistence that if you’re not min-maxing with a static you don’t deserve rewards or respect. Painting all that criticism as “they just hate fun group content” dodges the real issue.

Then there’s the classic line: “It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy—casuals get mad at meta, endgamers get mad casuals won’t improve, nobody’s the victim, nobody’s the oppressor.” It sounds wise and balanced, but it’s nonsense when you look at the actual dynamics.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Casuals mostly just want to enjoy the game at their own pace—see the story, get some gear, maybe clear normal without 200+ hours of practice or voice comms. When they push back, it’s usually after getting kicked, flamed, or told to unsub.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The endgame crowd often controls access to the coolest rewards, titles, mounts, leaderboards, and social clout. They set the tone in discords, forums, and group finder about what “real” play looks like. Toxicity almost always flows one way: from the people with the time, knowledge, parses, and groups toward the ones trying to break in.

kevkj wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

That’s funny, your post illustrates perfectly what this thread is discussing - you basically discriminate anyone who isn’t some kind of a “vet”, and you dismiss their feedback as worthless. I believe no feedback is without merit, and if some newer players exhibit their ignorance then feel free to enlighten them so they can learn and improve. But telling people that their voice is ‘excrement’ just because they didn’t yet learn it all is plain wrong imho.

First off, if you've worked any kind of customer facing job you know that most customer feedback is unusable. This opinion is more widely accepted elsewhere but in video games somehow it's a magical treasure to be revered. I mean this both ways, the player sitting on 1 billion gold saying there's no problems with the economy should be disregarded as much as the player who has a moral and ethical opposition to joining a free guild to list items.

I also see how my comment comes off as what you described, but that is not my true meaning. Part of the problem I'm trying to describe with my strawpeople is those who will self identify as veteran/experienced players. They will say, "I am a high level player with lots of experience with this specific area of the game and have explored the possibilities extensively so my feedback is insightful" to ward off criticism. The repair kit spammer is a 5 time grand overlord, they've spent a thousand hours in Cyrodiil in the past year. From the outside, this is a seasoned player offering their wisdom on improvements to the zone. The reality is that you shouldn't be molding a PvP zone to meet the vision of someone who is explicitly anti PvP. I need to make it very clear here I'm not attacking people who are new or bad at PvP (I'm quite terrible myself and only go into Cyro for AP and coffers), I mean the kind of player who rather sits on the wall looking at the map rather than help their allies literally right in front of them. A similar kind of player will rather afk wait an hour at a world boss for 4 people rather than attempt it with the one other person that is asking for help in zone chat. They make up their mind before even attempting any combat that it's not possible (or more realistically they may have tried it once and refused to try it again with any changes to their setup or approach). Tell me what's more toxic than that kind of mindset.

Ambiguous Doe will authoritatively declare that xyz is too difficult 'even for them' and any one who doesn't struggle must be some kind of no life slave to the game. As others have commented, being proficient at group content doesn't mean you automatically stop being a solo player who enjoys lore and plays themed builds. The colour does not fade from the world just because you put on Ring of the Pale Order or Velothi Ur-Mage Amulet. Successfully defending yourself in Bruma does not mean you can't laugh at the next Stibbons appearance. Self identification of casual or vet is part of the problem here. To themselves, they are a 'casual' because there are gameplay systems they don't engage with but simultaneously to others they are too 'veteran'(played a lot of hours) to accept that because they don't engage with those systems, they don't understand it fully and so can't make any well thought out conclusions on what is or isn't possible.

These people are not being honest with themselves much less their so called feedback. I'm not sure you've seen how well a lot of forum threads go when actual experienced players try to "enlighten" these kinds of feedback trolls. If you care enough, you can see that I've (or Morvan, HatchetHaro, TomOfHyrule etc etc) made good attempts on this forum itself and you can see what kind of response we got. They've gone past the point of accepting any help. Suggesting that perhaps having Minor and Major Resolve is necessary for any good attempt at PvP or solo-ing more difficult PvE content becomes an affront to their family lineage. They will read PersonofSecrets' data about how the first player has a 60-40 advantage in ToT and conclude that explains why they've lost 15 games in a row rather than them picking cards with their eyes closed. They will see trial players complain about Fatecarver being the oppressively dominant option and say they feel the same pressure to use that skill line to clear Blackwood public dungeons and world bosses.

They want to drive up a mountain road in the winter without snow tires because having appropriate tires is too meta and only for sweaty tryhards. Everyone recommends Tide Born Tires because it's the best value, but there's dozens of other brands they could choose from if they don't like the Tide Born logo. Then they complain that their state transportation authority should instead spend a billion dollars to heat the mountain road because their car with "solid tires" can't stop sliding off. To support their argument, they will tell you about how they've been driving for 35 years leaving out the detail that 99% of that was their daily 10 minute commute through suburbia. Meanwhile, every day there are new drivers taking the mountain path for the first time and succeeding because they debased their vehicle with snow tires. When they reach the top of the mountain, they are appalled when the operator tries to seat other people on the same ski lift and file a report with the ACLU that "skiing is not about sharing ski lift benches with others".

A lot of things in this game aren't inaccessible if people actually listened to a basic level of advice, but they refuse to change. There's some very real and appalling friction in this game when it comes to group content (new players trying to complete their first dungeons through dungeon queue) and others that are made larger than life (lfg in chat for Bastion Nymics or upcoming Night Market). If there are no worlds left to conquer with your current playstyle, perhaps it is time for a change of playstyle? Muhammad went to the mountain, not the other way round.

Soarora wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I wish this was taken more to heart, but the community has steadily become more and more toxic towards casual players and even solo players, or simply those who don't want to play 100% meta. The feedback thread for the Night Market shows this even stronger, and the devs honestly feel a little out of touch about the average skill level of the playerbase as a whole, if we consider both the Night Market in it's current state, AND the difficulty settings of that new Overland Difficulty mode (600% more damage received!! What in the world lol)

Likewise, people won’t give group content a chance and label us all as toxic and elitist and want content we find enjoyable to be nerfed/no longer added.

It’s a self-fufilling prophecy. Casuals meet endgame and get mad at meta, endgame meets casuals and get mad they refuse to improve. Neither side is a victim, neither side is an oppressor. I wish we could all just hold hands in friendship but the first step is realizing the us versus them mentality on both sides is what’s causing our suffering.

The whole “casuals hate group content and want it nerfed just because it exists” thing is such a caricature. Almost no one is out here trying to delete raids or high-end stuff forever. What actually gets people upset is the gatekeeping, the public shaming in group finder, the “parse gray = trash” attitude, or the loud insistence that if you’re not min-maxing with a static you don’t deserve rewards or respect. Painting all that criticism as “they just hate fun group content” dodges the real issue.

Then there’s the classic line: “It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy—casuals get mad at meta, endgamers get mad casuals won’t improve, nobody’s the victim, nobody’s the oppressor.” It sounds wise and balanced, but it’s nonsense when you look at the actual dynamics.

May I direct you to the Night Market feedback thread where there are people very upset about the difficulty? Not all content needs to be for everyone. And yes, I mean that even when its content I won't play.
Yes, the gatekeeping can be a massive issue-- look, I've quit trials recently in part because I don't want to be forced to subclass. I understand its a problem, but some of the gatekeeping is in fact in direct response to casuals. Like people who say "no oakensoul" tend to do so because those kinds of players tend to stand behind healers even when asked to stack with everyone else and get fussy when asked to optimize their build. It's stereotyping, but it's based on personal experience. I've seen people who have been burned. That's what I mean by self-fulfilling prophecy. People get fussy when asked to change anything at all thinking it's meta-pushing, then endgame players don't want to help those people, whilst likewise people get fussy when asked to change anything at all because there's endgame players who only push meta. The problem started with toxic endgamers, but the feedback loop is a part of both sides.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Casuals mostly just want to enjoy the game at their own pace—see the story, get some gear, maybe clear normal without 200+ hours of practice or voice comms. When they push back, it’s usually after getting kicked, flamed, or told to unsub.

There's guilds built for that.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The endgame crowd often controls access to the coolest rewards, titles, mounts, leaderboards, and social clout. They set the tone in discords, forums, and group finder about what “real” play looks like. Toxicity almost always flows one way: from the people with the time, knowledge, parses, and groups toward the ones trying to break in.

There's overland things too, like the nix-ox mount from telvanni peninsula and the skin. I do agree that overland should get more cool rewards though. And there's discords built around casual play that don't have the expectations of endgame.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I wish this was taken more to heart, but the community has steadily become more and more toxic towards casual players and even solo players, or simply those who don't want to play 100% meta. The feedback thread for the Night Market shows this even stronger, and the devs honestly feel a little out of touch about the average skill level of the playerbase as a whole, if we consider both the Night Market in it's current state, AND the difficulty settings of that new Overland Difficulty mode (600% more damage received!! What in the world lol)

Likewise, people won’t give group content a chance and label us all as toxic and elitist and want content we find enjoyable to be nerfed/no longer added.

It’s a self-fufilling prophecy. Casuals meet endgame and get mad at meta, endgame meets casuals and get mad they refuse to improve. Neither side is a victim, neither side is an oppressor. I wish we could all just hold hands in friendship but the first step is realizing the us versus them mentality on both sides is what’s causing our suffering.

The whole “casuals hate group content and want it nerfed just because it exists” thing is such a caricature. Almost no one is out here trying to delete raids or high-end stuff forever. What actually gets people upset is the gatekeeping, the public shaming in group finder, the “parse gray = trash” attitude, or the loud insistence that if you’re not min-maxing with a static you don’t deserve rewards or respect. Painting all that criticism as “they just hate fun group content” dodges the real issue.

Then there’s the classic line: “It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy—casuals get mad at meta, endgamers get mad casuals won’t improve, nobody’s the victim, nobody’s the oppressor.” It sounds wise and balanced, but it’s nonsense when you look at the actual dynamics.

May I direct you to the Night Market feedback thread where there are people very upset about the difficulty? Not all content needs to be for everyone. And yes, I mean that even when its content I won't play.
Yes, the gatekeeping can be a massive issue-- look, I've quit trials recently in part because I don't want to be forced to subclass. I understand its a problem, but some of the gatekeeping is in fact in direct response to casuals. Like people who say "no oakensoul" tend to do so because those kinds of players tend to stand behind healers even when asked to stack with everyone else and get fussy when asked to optimize their build. It's stereotyping, but it's based on personal experience. I've seen people who have been burned. That's what I mean by self-fulfilling prophecy. People get fussy when asked to change anything at all thinking it's meta-pushing, then endgame players don't want to help those people, whilst likewise people get fussy when asked to change anything at all because there's endgame players who only push meta. The problem started with toxic endgamers, but the feedback loop is a part of both sides.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Casuals mostly just want to enjoy the game at their own pace—see the story, get some gear, maybe clear normal without 200+ hours of practice or voice comms. When they push back, it’s usually after getting kicked, flamed, or told to unsub.

There's guilds built for that.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The endgame crowd often controls access to the coolest rewards, titles, mounts, leaderboards, and social clout. They set the tone in discords, forums, and group finder about what “real” play looks like. Toxicity almost always flows one way: from the people with the time, knowledge, parses, and groups toward the ones trying to break in.

There's overland things too, like the nix-ox mount from telvanni peninsula and the skin. I do agree that overland should get more cool rewards though. And there's discords built around casual play that don't have the expectations of endgame.

Hey, I get the frustration on both sides—it's a messy cycle. But let's be real: claiming gatekeeping is "justified" because some casuals get fussy about optimizing is pretty ridiculous.

It's like blaming kids for being excluded from the playground because they might not follow every rule perfectly. The responsibility doesn't flip just because a few people resist change.Endgame content should be open to anyone willing to learn mechanics—not just the meta slaves.

Refusing players over Oakensoul (or whatever the current boogeyman is) without even giving them a shot isn't "protecting the group"—it's elitism with a thin excuse.....Sure, some players get defensive when asked to tweak their build.

That's annoying. But stereotyping an entire crowd based on a few bad experiences and using it to justify blanket exclusion? That's not fair—it's just more toxicity. Both sides could stand to chill, but the gatekeepers hold the keys. If they're burned, the fix is running relaxed groups or teaching people—not slamming the door in more faces."Not all content needs to be for everyone" is true in theory, but when "worthy" gets decided by vibes or a single ring, it's not about difficulty anymore—it's exclusion for exclusion's sake. And that's the ridiculous part.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I wish this was taken more to heart, but the community has steadily become more and more toxic towards casual players and even solo players, or simply those who don't want to play 100% meta. The feedback thread for the Night Market shows this even stronger, and the devs honestly feel a little out of touch about the average skill level of the playerbase as a whole, if we consider both the Night Market in it's current state, AND the difficulty settings of that new Overland Difficulty mode (600% more damage received!! What in the world lol)

Likewise, people won’t give group content a chance and label us all as toxic and elitist and want content we find enjoyable to be nerfed/no longer added.

It’s a self-fufilling prophecy. Casuals meet endgame and get mad at meta, endgame meets casuals and get mad they refuse to improve. Neither side is a victim, neither side is an oppressor. I wish we could all just hold hands in friendship but the first step is realizing the us versus them mentality on both sides is what’s causing our suffering.

The whole “casuals hate group content and want it nerfed just because it exists” thing is such a caricature. Almost no one is out here trying to delete raids or high-end stuff forever. What actually gets people upset is the gatekeeping, the public shaming in group finder, the “parse gray = trash” attitude, or the loud insistence that if you’re not min-maxing with a static you don’t deserve rewards or respect. Painting all that criticism as “they just hate fun group content” dodges the real issue.

Then there’s the classic line: “It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy—casuals get mad at meta, endgamers get mad casuals won’t improve, nobody’s the victim, nobody’s the oppressor.” It sounds wise and balanced, but it’s nonsense when you look at the actual dynamics.

May I direct you to the Night Market feedback thread where there are people very upset about the difficulty? Not all content needs to be for everyone. And yes, I mean that even when its content I won't play.
Yes, the gatekeeping can be a massive issue-- look, I've quit trials recently in part because I don't want to be forced to subclass. I understand its a problem, but some of the gatekeeping is in fact in direct response to casuals. Like people who say "no oakensoul" tend to do so because those kinds of players tend to stand behind healers even when asked to stack with everyone else and get fussy when asked to optimize their build. It's stereotyping, but it's based on personal experience. I've seen people who have been burned. That's what I mean by self-fulfilling prophecy. People get fussy when asked to change anything at all thinking it's meta-pushing, then endgame players don't want to help those people, whilst likewise people get fussy when asked to change anything at all because there's endgame players who only push meta. The problem started with toxic endgamers, but the feedback loop is a part of both sides.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Casuals mostly just want to enjoy the game at their own pace—see the story, get some gear, maybe clear normal without 200+ hours of practice or voice comms. When they push back, it’s usually after getting kicked, flamed, or told to unsub.

There's guilds built for that.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The endgame crowd often controls access to the coolest rewards, titles, mounts, leaderboards, and social clout. They set the tone in discords, forums, and group finder about what “real” play looks like. Toxicity almost always flows one way: from the people with the time, knowledge, parses, and groups toward the ones trying to break in.

There's overland things too, like the nix-ox mount from telvanni peninsula and the skin. I do agree that overland should get more cool rewards though. And there's discords built around casual play that don't have the expectations of endgame.

Hey, I get the frustration on both sides—it's a messy cycle. But let's be real: claiming gatekeeping is "justified" because some casuals get fussy about optimizing is pretty ridiculous.

It's like blaming kids for being excluded from the playground because they might not follow every rule perfectly. The responsibility doesn't flip just because a few people resist change.Endgame content should be open to anyone willing to learn mechanics—not just the meta slaves.

Refusing players over Oakensoul (or whatever the current boogeyman is) without even giving them a shot isn't "protecting the group"—it's elitism with a thin excuse.....Sure, some players get defensive when asked to tweak their build.

That's annoying. But stereotyping an entire crowd based on a few bad experiences and using it to justify blanket exclusion? That's not fair—it's just more toxicity. Both sides could stand to chill, but the gatekeepers hold the keys. If they're burned, the fix is running relaxed groups or teaching people—not slamming the door in more faces."Not all content needs to be for everyone" is true in theory, but when "worthy" gets decided by vibes or a single ring, it's not about difficulty anymore—it's exclusion for exclusion's sake. And that's the ridiculous part.

The solo questers that never learn mechanics or builds have nobody to blame but themselves if groups don't want to carry them.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

lillybit wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I wish this was taken more to heart, but the community has steadily become more and more toxic towards casual players and even solo players, or simply those who don't want to play 100% meta. The feedback thread for the Night Market shows this even stronger, and the devs honestly feel a little out of touch about the average skill level of the playerbase as a whole, if we consider both the Night Market in it's current state, AND the difficulty settings of that new Overland Difficulty mode (600% more damage received!! What in the world lol)

Likewise, people won’t give group content a chance and label us all as toxic and elitist and want content we find enjoyable to be nerfed/no longer added.

It’s a self-fufilling prophecy. Casuals meet endgame and get mad at meta, endgame meets casuals and get mad they refuse to improve. Neither side is a victim, neither side is an oppressor. I wish we could all just hold hands in friendship but the first step is realizing the us versus them mentality on both sides is what’s causing our suffering.

The whole “casuals hate group content and want it nerfed just because it exists” thing is such a caricature. Almost no one is out here trying to delete raids or high-end stuff forever. What actually gets people upset is the gatekeeping, the public shaming in group finder, the “parse gray = trash” attitude, or the loud insistence that if you’re not min-maxing with a static you don’t deserve rewards or respect. Painting all that criticism as “they just hate fun group content” dodges the real issue.

Then there’s the classic line: “It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy—casuals get mad at meta, endgamers get mad casuals won’t improve, nobody’s the victim, nobody’s the oppressor.” It sounds wise and balanced, but it’s nonsense when you look at the actual dynamics.

May I direct you to the Night Market feedback thread where there are people very upset about the difficulty? Not all content needs to be for everyone. And yes, I mean that even when its content I won't play.
Yes, the gatekeeping can be a massive issue-- look, I've quit trials recently in part because I don't want to be forced to subclass. I understand its a problem, but some of the gatekeeping is in fact in direct response to casuals. Like people who say "no oakensoul" tend to do so because those kinds of players tend to stand behind healers even when asked to stack with everyone else and get fussy when asked to optimize their build. It's stereotyping, but it's based on personal experience. I've seen people who have been burned. That's what I mean by self-fulfilling prophecy. People get fussy when asked to change anything at all thinking it's meta-pushing, then endgame players don't want to help those people, whilst likewise people get fussy when asked to change anything at all because there's endgame players who only push meta. The problem started with toxic endgamers, but the feedback loop is a part of both sides.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Casuals mostly just want to enjoy the game at their own pace—see the story, get some gear, maybe clear normal without 200+ hours of practice or voice comms. When they push back, it’s usually after getting kicked, flamed, or told to unsub.

There's guilds built for that.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The endgame crowd often controls access to the coolest rewards, titles, mounts, leaderboards, and social clout. They set the tone in discords, forums, and group finder about what “real” play looks like. Toxicity almost always flows one way: from the people with the time, knowledge, parses, and groups toward the ones trying to break in.

There's overland things too, like the nix-ox mount from telvanni peninsula and the skin. I do agree that overland should get more cool rewards though. And there's discords built around casual play that don't have the expectations of endgame.

Hey, I get the frustration on both sides—it's a messy cycle. But let's be real: claiming gatekeeping is "justified" because some casuals get fussy about optimizing is pretty ridiculous.

It's like blaming kids for being excluded from the playground because they might not follow every rule perfectly. The responsibility doesn't flip just because a few people resist change.Endgame content should be open to anyone willing to learn mechanics—not just the meta slaves.

Refusing players over Oakensoul (or whatever the current boogeyman is) without even giving them a shot isn't "protecting the group"—it's elitism with a thin excuse.....Sure, some players get defensive when asked to tweak their build.

That's annoying. But stereotyping an entire crowd based on a few bad experiences and using it to justify blanket exclusion? That's not fair—it's just more toxicity. Both sides could stand to chill, but the gatekeepers hold the keys. If they're burned, the fix is running relaxed groups or teaching people—not slamming the door in more faces."Not all content needs to be for everyone" is true in theory, but when "worthy" gets decided by vibes or a single ring, it's not about difficulty anymore—it's exclusion for exclusion's sake. And that's the ridiculous part.

The solo questers that never learn mechanics or builds have nobody to blame but themselves if groups don't want to carry them.

How are they supposed to learn the mechs if someone like you kicks them at the first trash pack?

Ask for help and put in the effort if you're struggling and people will almost always be willing to help. The problem is the weak players expecting free carries or the game be dumbed down to the point that all content can be solo'd. If you're trying you're not likely to be kicked.

Soarora wrote: »

I think it’s more likely that they genuinely don’t realize they’re bad/unprepared for the content.