During my time playing ESO I've been almost all of the things. I started out 100% solo just wanting another Skyrim. From there I was drawn into guilds and encouraged to try dungeons. I've been in Trial progs and got a few skins, I've been part of dungeon achievement groups, I am devoted to housing and fashion and crafting! I PvP (badly!) a couple of months a year - I join for Mayhem and throw myself into it for the rest of the campaign each time. I hate battlegrounds because my reactions just aren't up to small fights, but I've still tried it long enough to unlock the gorgeous red dye. My enthusiasm definitely dips a bit when it comes to Tales of Tribute but I'll still give it a go and try to unlock everything.

I probably wouldn't still be here if I hadn't been willing to try a little of everything the game has to offer. I'm quite sad that anxiety has put me back in the solo box again recently, I miss working towards something as part of a group.

When our community is pitted against each other it misses the point of our huge, wonderful game. It's never been one thing, for one type of person. It's as little or as much as we want it to be!

coop500 wrote: »

I wish this was taken more to heart, but the community has steadily become more and more toxic towards casual players and even solo players, or simply those who don't want to play 100% meta. The feedback thread for the Night Market shows this even stronger, and the devs honestly feel a little out of touch about the average skill level of the playerbase as a whole, if we consider both the Night Market in it's current state, AND the difficulty settings of that new Overland Difficulty mode (600% more damage received!! What in the world lol)

Likewise, people won’t give group content a chance and label us all as toxic and elitist and want content we find enjoyable to be nerfed/no longer added.

It’s a self-fufilling prophecy. Casuals meet endgame and get mad at meta, endgame meets casuals and get mad they refuse to improve. Neither side is a victim, neither side is an oppressor. I wish we could all just hold hands in friendship but the first step is realizing the us versus them mentality on both sides is what’s causing our suffering.

lillybit wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

lillybit wrote: »

During my time playing ESO I've been almost all of the things. I started out 100% solo just wanting another Skyrim. From there I was drawn into guilds and encouraged to try dungeons. I've been in Trial progs and got a few skins, I've been part of dungeon achievement groups, I am devoted to housing and fashion and crafting! I PvP (badly!) a couple of months a year - I join for Mayhem and throw myself into it for the rest of the campaign each time. I hate battlegrounds because my reactions just aren't up to small fights, but I've still tried it long enough to unlock the gorgeous red dye. My enthusiasm definitely dips a bit when it comes to Tales of Tribute but I'll still give it a go and try to unlock everything.

I probably wouldn't still be here if I hadn't been willing to try a little of everything the game has to offer. I'm quite sad that anxiety has put me back in the solo box again recently, I miss working towards something as part of a group.

When our community is pitted against each other it misses the point of our huge, wonderful game. It's never been one thing, for one type of person. It's as little or as much as we want it to be!

Yeah, as someone who has also dabbled in everything, including vet trials, PvP, dungeons, ToT, everything you can think of, I too have lately felt shoved back into being solo again recently. For me it was ever since subclassing came out, not blaming the system directly but that's when the shift happened for me.

I feel like now, even breathing your stats to a public space or even your guild is an invitation for bullying under the guise of 'helping' you get into the meta. Because nobody is allowed to play for any reason besides for the meta.

Yeah subclassing has sadly been rough. For someone used to just playing (and loving) one class, it's even harder to put yourself out there when you know you won't be competitive

One of the reasons that I like PUGs, outside of scheduling issues, is there generally much less requirements to joining them. People are generally just happy they can actually get stuff started or to be included.

I mean the biggest thing is the finger pointing lol. The same people make posts over and over again about how the game is an MMO and solo content shouldn't be prioritized. Same for not wanting the game to be against solo people. Same for the whole PvP vs PvE argument.

Ultimately, the game encompasses so many different types of players & when ZOS decides to dedicate time towards something, inevitably there is an opportunity cost and someone will be unhappy and make a post about how each decision is going to kill the game.

Being able to say as a solo player, "yea I understand why you'd want more group content in an MMO" or as a end game PvE player saying, "yea, I get that not everyone has unlimited time in the day and a group of friends to play the game with" can happen simultaneously. Many people bounce between crowds even! I think the biggest thing is simply understanding that giving each and every player MORE ways to play the game we all love is great & ultimately important. If you try to please everyone with every update, you'll please no one.

Most of the issues everyone talks about are also player created. Adding a solo version of a dungeon won't kill the game just as much as the night market won't destroy a solo player's will to play. Both can be true.

i wish more people believed in this, players and developers. Elder Scrolls Online mostly does feel like it is for everyone, but there are definitely parts that do not feel like it.
Some stuff could change, most stuff is fine.

We do not need to do everything, but some stuff feels like it should have more options?
Unsure if my comment entirely fits the thread, i can spoiler or remove if necessary.

i am often only able to play in the middle of the night, which makes finding groups for content challenging.
Though i prefer to play solo, i enjoy group content too when i can participate.



The Night Market seems fun!
But also seems too challenging when alone or in a small group. i wish it had a lower difficulty mode like how Overland is getting higher difficulty modes.

PvP can be fun and i occasionally enjoy Battlegrounds, but my reflexes are not fast enough to consistently enjoy PvP.

Meta (most efficient tactic available) is mostly possible when i Heal, but for Damage Dealing it simply is not attainable. Which adds to not always being able to do group content.

No idea if i am a Casual or Veteran player. i play nearly every day and i have done most content, but i do not constantly do Veteran difficulty content.
i like Veteran content, but partially due to inaccessibility i tend to stick to Normal difficulty or non-combat content such as Housing, questing, and Tales of Tribute.




i love Elder Scrolls Online and it is nice to play in a virtual world and (mostly) not be required to play solo or grouped. Lots of choices in content.

i mostly do feel like We All Belong and that it is Tamriel Together, but there are accessibility concerns in lots of areas of the game which make it hard to feel like i belong.
No idea what is and is not possible,
but Solo dungeons and acknowledgment on my own thead at least makes me more hopeful than in the past.
(my thread i mentioned: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/681702/accessibility-request-a-list-of-strobing-flashing-effects-occurrences/p1)

This has been a discussion since I joined back when Morrowind came out. It will be a discussion until this game ceases to exist.

There have always been "elitist" groups. It used to be guilds that ran pug groups out of Craglorn to find recruits. Back when 20K DPS was the basis for admittance into veteran trials, and you had to post a screenshot of your parse in game, players were furious when they hit 19K and were shut out. Some guilds made you post your gear before running. Others had hard caps for CP. Others required you to have certain achievements to run a trial, like beat VMA.

There has always been a meta. There will always be a meta. There will always be groups that require you to run the meta. At the same time as above, before Cloudrest dropped, you better have VO+TFS if you were a stamina build. The funny part is I bet a majority of players today have no idea what that means. So I am not surprised if a group demands "no HA sorcs" or "100K+ DPS only." To be honest, I am okay with that. I don't want to carry someone on a werewolf build who swears they can hit 120K but is constantly spamming howl.

The real sticking point is casuals vs. vets. Everyone goes from being a solo player to gradually moving to either PVP or PVE group endgame content, then eventually both as your experience grows with the game. When I came into this game, I expected a high learning curve, both with LA weaving, understanding mechanics, and just learning what works and what does not. I would consider myself a veteran because I learned all of those things, not because I've played for a long time. I would consider players who do not learn those things to be casuals. That may be elitist, so be it.

To put it this way, just because you have a subclass Arc/NB/Templar build with beams that go BRRRRRRRRRR does not mean you should assume you will be let into a vet trials group. The funny part about subclassing and Arcanists is that with the massive jump in DPS also came a massive drop off in skill. So I am not surprised when organized groups set up requirements to join a raid. Do a pug vet DSR run if you doubt that.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lately, I have been noticing in a lot of discussions that there is a lot of division about what type of game this is. Solo vs Group? PvE vs Pvp? Casual or Veteran? Even at the fundamental level, I have seen it debated whether or not this is an Elder Scrolls game or an MMO? The answer to that question is yes. It's all of those things. This game caters to a very wide audience. Sometimes that will lead to friction, quite naturally. It's not an easy line to walk for the devs or the players. So, this isn't intended to call anyone out. I can be guilty of it too sometimes!

This game is an Elder Scrolls Game.

Rich Lambert with The Gamer on MSN wrote:

Upon reflection, Lambert puts it down to the team not knowing what kind of game they were making. “We were so focused on trying to build a game and have it appeal to as many people as possible,” he recalls. “We wanted to appeal to the other Elder Scrolls players. We wanted to appeal to the MMO players. And when we tried to walk this delicate line kind of between them, we didn't hit at all like at launch. “When we decided it was Elder Scrolls first, that completely changed our mindset, and we stopped worrying.”[ From then on, the team built a game that carried the torch after Skyrim, and is entrusted by Bethesda to tell unique Elder Scrolls stories of its own.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/gaming/elder-scrolls-online-interview-the-developers-who-want-to-create-a-30-year-mmo/ar-AA1Ma0zx

At its core, it's also an MMO.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

At our core, we are an MMO and want to encourage players to play together, see other people, soft group, etc. so as we were developing a core pillar was to make sure we maintain that playstyle.”

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/687966/official-discussion-thread-for-developer-deep-dive-season-zero-s-challenge-difficulty#latest

At the end of the day, all the different playstyles matter. All of the gameplay experiences should feel fun and rewarding. Sometimes care must be taken to ensure something for a group of players doesn't harm the gameplay experience of others. For example, obviously they need to be careful how they balance the reward structure for both the upcoming solo dungeons and challenge (formerly known as Overland) difficulty settings. But that doesn't change the core idea that all of us belong, and we all deserve to have a fun and rewarding experience. This doesn't mean we can expect to get every single reward the game offers without having to play all the content. But it does mean that anyone who plays this game should have a fun and rewarding experience. And that there should naturally be options, when possible, to accommodate different types of players.

The devs need to hear all the different feedback and shape content accordingly. I know in the past that they have not been that great about this. I think that alongside the content draught that has happened as they shore up the fundamentals of the game that have been put on the back burner for too long, it has kind of made things seem like maybe only one group can prevail. But I don't think that the content draught should make us lose sight of the idea that this is everyone's game. There should be stuff for all of us. Hopefully, we'll start to get more stuff added soon as the past few years have been light on new content and I think it has contributed to the question of "What is ESO even?" I hope that the devs are able to step up the new content while maintaining this renewed focus on fixes to the fundamental game that it so desperately needs moving forward.

It is not Solo vs Group. Pve vs PvP. Casual vs Veteran. It is Tamriel Together.

I mean, they made a whole trailer about it and everything.

https://youtu.be/KRRT1lq4Fm4?si=EpjjrGqnguF34MeX

It's on the developers to work with the player base to make this game something that all of us can enjoy, even if we don't play literally every part of it. Something they seem to be aware of and are making more important lately. Because all of us belong.

Not if you log in to play PvP. If PvP is why you play ESO you have been orphaned for years. Same goes for end game PvE since U35.

LPapirius wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lately, I have been noticing in a lot of discussions that there is a lot of division about what type of game this is. Solo vs Group? PvE vs Pvp? Casual or Veteran? Even at the fundamental level, I have seen it debated whether or not this is an Elder Scrolls game or an MMO? The answer to that question is yes. It's all of those things. This game caters to a very wide audience. Sometimes that will lead to friction, quite naturally. It's not an easy line to walk for the devs or the players. So, this isn't intended to call anyone out. I can be guilty of it too sometimes!

This game is an Elder Scrolls Game.

Rich Lambert with The Gamer on MSN wrote:

Upon reflection, Lambert puts it down to the team not knowing what kind of game they were making. “We were so focused on trying to build a game and have it appeal to as many people as possible,” he recalls. “We wanted to appeal to the other Elder Scrolls players. We wanted to appeal to the MMO players. And when we tried to walk this delicate line kind of between them, we didn't hit at all like at launch. “When we decided it was Elder Scrolls first, that completely changed our mindset, and we stopped worrying.”[ From then on, the team built a game that carried the torch after Skyrim, and is entrusted by Bethesda to tell unique Elder Scrolls stories of its own.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/gaming/elder-scrolls-online-interview-the-developers-who-want-to-create-a-30-year-mmo/ar-AA1Ma0zx

At its core, it's also an MMO.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

At our core, we are an MMO and want to encourage players to play together, see other people, soft group, etc. so as we were developing a core pillar was to make sure we maintain that playstyle.”

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/687966/official-discussion-thread-for-developer-deep-dive-season-zero-s-challenge-difficulty#latest

At the end of the day, all the different playstyles matter. All of the gameplay experiences should feel fun and rewarding. Sometimes care must be taken to ensure something for a group of players doesn't harm the gameplay experience of others. For example, obviously they need to be careful how they balance the reward structure for both the upcoming solo dungeons and challenge (formerly known as Overland) difficulty settings. But that doesn't change the core idea that all of us belong, and we all deserve to have a fun and rewarding experience. This doesn't mean we can expect to get every single reward the game offers without having to play all the content. But it does mean that anyone who plays this game should have a fun and rewarding experience. And that there should naturally be options, when possible, to accommodate different types of players.

The devs need to hear all the different feedback and shape content accordingly. I know in the past that they have not been that great about this. I think that alongside the content draught that has happened as they shore up the fundamentals of the game that have been put on the back burner for too long, it has kind of made things seem like maybe only one group can prevail. But I don't think that the content draught should make us lose sight of the idea that this is everyone's game. There should be stuff for all of us. Hopefully, we'll start to get more stuff added soon as the past few years have been light on new content and I think it has contributed to the question of "What is ESO even?" I hope that the devs are able to step up the new content while maintaining this renewed focus on fixes to the fundamental game that it so desperately needs moving forward.

It is not Solo vs Group. Pve vs PvP. Casual vs Veteran. It is Tamriel Together.

I mean, they made a whole trailer about it and everything.

https://youtu.be/KRRT1lq4Fm4?si=EpjjrGqnguF34MeX

It's on the developers to work with the player base to make this game something that all of us can enjoy, even if we don't play literally every part of it. Something they seem to be aware of and are making more important lately. Because all of us belong.

Not if you log in to play PvP. If PvP is why you play ESO you have been orphaned for years. Same goes for end game PvE since U35.

The developers definitely have a lot to do to bring things into more parity, that's for sure. Hopefully that new PvP game mode they're working on will be fun.

Soarora wrote: »

It’s a self-fufilling prophecy. Casuals meet endgame and get mad at meta, endgame meets casuals and get mad they refuse to improve. Neither side is a victim, neither side is an oppressor. I wish we could all just hold hands in friendship but the first step is realizing the us versus them mentality on both sides is what’s causing our suffering.

I completely agree. Blaming each other and forcing distinctions is utterly pointless. Take me for example: I've completed all in-game quests including all DLCs, have the Emperor achievement, completed all (including DLCs) for HM-4-player raids, and am currently tackling Hm-Trials for SE. How do I define myself as a solo player, a group player, or a PvP player?

Furthermore, I suspect most players are actually hybrids, sometimes playing solo, sometimes in groups. Therefore, the more diverse the solo and group content, the better.

The truly toxic ones are those demanding the removal of solo/group gameplay 、those who want rewards without effort, and those who want to exclude those who disagree.

Very well said. It's Tamriel Together.

I started playing solo PvE content, coming from Skyrim, made my way to group dungeons, joined a guild, tried out trials and PvP and pretty much tried out a lot of aspects of the game during my time here. Every playstyle has its place here.

I know it’s been spoke about to some degree but I genuinely believe the only thing that can put eso back on everyone’s go to game to see these huge mmo feels and to always be able to find another player then cross play is the only way to move with a huge server merge

spartaxoxo wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lately, I have been noticing in a lot of discussions that there is a lot of division about what type of game this is. Solo vs Group? PvE vs Pvp? Casual or Veteran? Even at the fundamental level, I have seen it debated whether or not this is an Elder Scrolls game or an MMO? The answer to that question is yes. It's all of those things. This game caters to a very wide audience. Sometimes that will lead to friction, quite naturally. It's not an easy line to walk for the devs or the players. So, this isn't intended to call anyone out. I can be guilty of it too sometimes!

This game is an Elder Scrolls Game.

Rich Lambert with The Gamer on MSN wrote:

Upon reflection, Lambert puts it down to the team not knowing what kind of game they were making. “We were so focused on trying to build a game and have it appeal to as many people as possible,” he recalls. “We wanted to appeal to the other Elder Scrolls players. We wanted to appeal to the MMO players. And when we tried to walk this delicate line kind of between them, we didn't hit at all like at launch. “When we decided it was Elder Scrolls first, that completely changed our mindset, and we stopped worrying.”[ From then on, the team built a game that carried the torch after Skyrim, and is entrusted by Bethesda to tell unique Elder Scrolls stories of its own.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/gaming/elder-scrolls-online-interview-the-developers-who-want-to-create-a-30-year-mmo/ar-AA1Ma0zx

At its core, it's also an MMO.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

At our core, we are an MMO and want to encourage players to play together, see other people, soft group, etc. so as we were developing a core pillar was to make sure we maintain that playstyle.”

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/687966/official-discussion-thread-for-developer-deep-dive-season-zero-s-challenge-difficulty#latest

At the end of the day, all the different playstyles matter. All of the gameplay experiences should feel fun and rewarding. Sometimes care must be taken to ensure something for a group of players doesn't harm the gameplay experience of others. For example, obviously they need to be careful how they balance the reward structure for both the upcoming solo dungeons and challenge (formerly known as Overland) difficulty settings. But that doesn't change the core idea that all of us belong, and we all deserve to have a fun and rewarding experience. This doesn't mean we can expect to get every single reward the game offers without having to play all the content. But it does mean that anyone who plays this game should have a fun and rewarding experience. And that there should naturally be options, when possible, to accommodate different types of players.

The devs need to hear all the different feedback and shape content accordingly. I know in the past that they have not been that great about this. I think that alongside the content draught that has happened as they shore up the fundamentals of the game that have been put on the back burner for too long, it has kind of made things seem like maybe only one group can prevail. But I don't think that the content draught should make us lose sight of the idea that this is everyone's game. There should be stuff for all of us. Hopefully, we'll start to get more stuff added soon as the past few years have been light on new content and I think it has contributed to the question of "What is ESO even?" I hope that the devs are able to step up the new content while maintaining this renewed focus on fixes to the fundamental game that it so desperately needs moving forward.

It is not Solo vs Group. Pve vs PvP. Casual vs Veteran. It is Tamriel Together.

I mean, they made a whole trailer about it and everything.

https://youtu.be/KRRT1lq4Fm4?si=EpjjrGqnguF34MeX

It's on the developers to work with the player base to make this game something that all of us can enjoy, even if we don't play literally every part of it. Something they seem to be aware of and are making more important lately. Because all of us belong.

Not if you log in to play PvP. If PvP is why you play ESO you have been orphaned for years. Same goes for end game PvE since U35.

The developers definitely have a lot to do to bring things into more parity, that's for sure. Hopefully that new PvP game mode they're working on will be fun.

Vengeance is a fail by every measure. No need to discus it further.

aetherix8 wrote: »

That’s funny, your post illustrates perfectly what this thread is discussing - you basically discriminate anyone who isn’t some kind of a “vet”, and you dismiss their feedback as worthless. I believe no feedback is without merit, and if some newer players exhibit their ignorance then feel free to enlighten them so they can learn and improve. But telling people that their voice is ‘excrement’ just because they didn’t yet learn it all is plain wrong imho.

First off, if you've worked any kind of customer facing job you know that most customer feedback is unusable. This opinion is more widely accepted elsewhere but in video games somehow it's a magical treasure to be revered. I mean this both ways, the player sitting on 1 billion gold saying there's no problems with the economy should be disregarded as much as the player who has a moral and ethical opposition to joining a free guild to list items.

I also see how my comment comes off as what you described, but that is not my true meaning. Part of the problem I'm trying to describe with my strawpeople is those who will self identify as veteran/experienced players. They will say, "I am a high level player with lots of experience with this specific area of the game and have explored the possibilities extensively so my feedback is insightful" to ward off criticism. The repair kit spammer is a 5 time grand overlord, they've spent a thousand hours in Cyrodiil in the past year. From the outside, this is a seasoned player offering their wisdom on improvements to the zone. The reality is that you shouldn't be molding a PvP zone to meet the vision of someone who is explicitly anti PvP. I need to make it very clear here I'm not attacking people who are new or bad at PvP (I'm quite terrible myself and only go into Cyro for AP and coffers), I mean the kind of player who rather sits on the wall looking at the map rather than help their allies literally right in front of them. A similar kind of player will rather afk wait an hour at a world boss for 4 people rather than attempt it with the one other person that is asking for help in zone chat. They make up their mind before even attempting any combat that it's not possible (or more realistically they may have tried it once and refused to try it again with any changes to their setup or approach). Tell me what's more toxic than that kind of mindset.

Ambiguous Doe will authoritatively declare that xyz is too difficult 'even for them' and any one who doesn't struggle must be some kind of no life slave to the game. As others have commented, being proficient at group content doesn't mean you automatically stop being a solo player who enjoys lore and plays themed builds. The colour does not fade from the world just because you put on Ring of the Pale Order or Velothi Ur-Mage Amulet. Successfully defending yourself in Bruma does not mean you can't laugh at the next Stibbons appearance. Self identification of casual or vet is part of the problem here. To themselves, they are a 'casual' because there are gameplay systems they don't engage with but simultaneously to others they are too 'veteran'(played a lot of hours) to accept that because they don't engage with those systems, they don't understand it fully and so can't make any well thought out conclusions on what is or isn't possible.

These people are not being honest with themselves much less their so called feedback. I'm not sure you've seen how well a lot of forum threads go when actual experienced players try to "enlighten" these kinds of feedback trolls. If you care enough, you can see that I've (or Morvan, HatchetHaro, TomOfHyrule etc etc) made good attempts on this forum itself and you can see what kind of response we got. They've gone past the point of accepting any help. Suggesting that perhaps having Minor and Major Resolve is necessary for any good attempt at PvP or solo-ing more difficult PvE content becomes an affront to their family lineage. They will read PersonofSecrets' data about how the first player has a 60-40 advantage in ToT and conclude that explains why they've lost 15 games in a row rather than them picking cards with their eyes closed. They will see trial players complain about Fatecarver being the oppressively dominant option and say they feel the same pressure to use that skill line to clear Blackwood public dungeons and world bosses.

They want to drive up a mountain road in the winter without snow tires because having appropriate tires is too meta and only for sweaty tryhards. Everyone recommends Tide Born Tires because it's the best value, but there's dozens of other brands they could choose from if they don't like the Tide Born logo. Then they complain that their state transportation authority should instead spend a billion dollars to heat the mountain road because their car with "solid tires" can't stop sliding off. To support their argument, they will tell you about how they've been driving for 35 years leaving out the detail that 99% of that was their daily 10 minute commute through suburbia. Meanwhile, every day there are new drivers taking the mountain path for the first time and succeeding because they debased their vehicle with snow tires. When they reach the top of the mountain, they are appalled when the operator tries to seat other people on the same ski lift and file a report with the ACLU that "skiing is not about sharing ski lift benches with others".

A lot of things in this game aren't inaccessible if people actually listened to a basic level of advice, but they refuse to change. There's some very real and appalling friction in this game when it comes to group content (new players trying to complete their first dungeons through dungeon queue) and others that are made larger than life (lfg in chat for Bastion Nymics or upcoming Night Market). If there are no worlds left to conquer with your current playstyle, perhaps it is time for a change of playstyle? Muhammad went to the mountain, not the other way round.

aetherix8 wrote: »

Awesome post, thank you OP. As someone who went through countless Veng threads, I couldn’t agree more that we as a community could use more unity, inclusivity and open mindedness. I believe that if we were able to agree more often we would be much more efficient at making our feedback have an actual impact on the game.

I’m fundamentally a solo player but I find MMOs more immersive - the presence of unpredictable players as opposed to routine NPCs makes the in-game world feel more real. And what I appreciate about ESO is that I don’t have to interact with other players at all if I don’t feel like (which is most of the time). If that means that I won’t be getting that trial skin, so be it, there’s plenty to do for a solo player.

kevkj wrote: »

This issue is exacerbated by the placing of all player feedback on a pedestal. Honestly, most of the time most feedback from most players is worth less than excrement.

When you have Jane Doe who cannot name more than 3 item sets in the game off the top of their head weighing in on set diversity or the much maligned meta, the whole discussion is already poisoned. When John Doe the top repair kit spammer in the world starts spouting off about the various reasons behind cyrodiil's population decline, how can you expect people to respond in good faith? When Albert Einstein who struggles to count the number of digits on their fingers complains about Tales of Tribute cards, is everyone else supposed to take them seriously?

The games has something for a lot of people (not everyone, despite all the marketing). But the whole game is not for everyone (bar a very small minority of completionists). Sometimes you just have to accept parts of the game are not for you, and not see it as a personal attack on your character. A lot of people want mountains to be levelled flat so they can see the view from the top, and don't see a problem with their mindset at all.

That’s funny, your post illustrates perfectly what this thread is discussing - you basically discriminate anyone who isn’t some kind of a “vet”, and you dismiss their feedback as worthless. I believe no feedback is without merit, and if some newer players exhibit their ignorance then feel free to enlighten them so they can learn and improve. But telling people that their voice is ‘excrement’ just because they didn’t yet learn it all is plain wrong imho.

LOL yes that post actually made me stay away from this thread for awhile.
And yet people will still tell me this isn't a problem in the ESO community.

Soarora wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I wish this was taken more to heart, but the community has steadily become more and more toxic towards casual players and even solo players, or simply those who don't want to play 100% meta. The feedback thread for the Night Market shows this even stronger, and the devs honestly feel a little out of touch about the average skill level of the playerbase as a whole, if we consider both the Night Market in it's current state, AND the difficulty settings of that new Overland Difficulty mode (600% more damage received!! What in the world lol)

Likewise, people won’t give group content a chance and label us all as toxic and elitist and want content we find enjoyable to be nerfed/no longer added.

It’s a self-fufilling prophecy. Casuals meet endgame and get mad at meta, endgame meets casuals and get mad they refuse to improve. Neither side is a victim, neither side is an oppressor. I wish we could all just hold hands in friendship but the first step is realizing the us versus them mentality on both sides is what’s causing our suffering.

Oh.boy.....


The whole “casuals hate group content and want it nerfed just because it exists” thing is such a caricature. Almost no one is out here trying to delete raids or high-end stuff forever. What actually gets people upset is the gatekeeping, the public shaming in group finder, the “parse gray = trash” attitude, or the loud insistence that if you’re not min-maxing with a static you don’t deserve rewards or respect. Painting all that criticism as “they just hate fun group content” dodges the real issue.

Then there’s the classic line: “It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy—casuals get mad at meta, endgamers get mad casuals won’t improve, nobody’s the victim, nobody’s the oppressor.” It sounds wise and balanced, but it’s nonsense when you look at the actual dynamics.

Casuals mostly just want to enjoy the game at their own pace—see the story, get some gear, maybe clear normal without 200+ hours of practice or voice comms. When they push back, it’s usually after getting kicked, flamed, or told to unsub.

The endgame crowd often controls access to the coolest rewards, titles, mounts, leaderboards, and social clout. They set the tone in discords, forums, and group finder about what “real” play looks like. Toxicity almost always flows one way: from the people with the time, knowledge, parses, and groups toward the ones trying to break in.

Saying “both sides are equally at fault” is like watching the popular kids mock the new table for not knowing the rules… then declaring both tables are creating division equally. The power imbalance is obvious.

The “self-fulfilling prophecy” bit also skips over how one side’s louder voices spent years saying “optimize or you’re holding everyone back / why content gets nerfed.” When casuals finally internalize that and either quit or clap back, suddenly it’s “see, everyone’s toxic!”

Wishing for less hostility and more mutual respect is great. But acting like the “us vs them” mentality popped up symmetrically is just deflection. Real change starts with owning the actual imbalances instead of pretending it’s 50/50. Only then does the “let’s all hold hands” part stop sounding like a cop-out.