MMO does NOT mean Grouping

cyclonus11 · January 20

ToddIngram wrote: »

Like it or not all end game content in ESO requires grouping.

Lies! Decorating my house does not require a group!

Katahdin · January 20

IsharaMeradin wrote: »

I don't want them to take away group content or "dumb it down" so that the average player can solo it with ease. All I have ever wanted is a story option where we can go in and actually do the story at our own pace without someone else "accidentally" running past a point where the quest becomes broken. And that they do not put in any mechanics that would prevent someone from trying to solo a group dungeon should they wish to challenge themselves on something that would be a shorter duration than doing an arena or IA.

This

So sick and tired of not being able to do a dungeon and hear the story, explore without people treating it like a race and breaking it. I am all for story dungeons and then requiring grouping for the major rewards as they are now.

CalamityCat · January 20

I'd also add that when you are a solo player (I usually am) there are always other players like you who will happily group up for the convenience of completing content, without requiring you to speak or interact with them in any way. You can 100% be solo and tag along with groups to do harder content. I've done a lot of normal trial runs with randoms and not said a word, just followed instructions from the group lead. Then still received a "thanks for healing" which is always appreciated

Some players don't understand that there are entirely legit reasons why a player may try to play solo as much as possible. I can be social or very very solo minded depending how RL is going. Sometimes I've been dealing with something and needed ESO as a distraction. I know others who have a diagnosis and genuinely have trouble interacting with people sometimes. Or simply prefer to be around players they know vs strangers.

So what I'm saying is don't feel like you have to avoid everyone in ESO, because there are others who 'get it' and they can actually be a good source of support inside and beyond ESO. I know I've been in voice with players who have diagnosed mental health things, and we can all talk safely about what's going on and our respective frustrations with work/family etc.

SilverBride · January 20

CalamityCat wrote: »

I'd also add that when you are a solo player (I usually am) there are always other players like you who will happily group up for the convenience of completing content, without requiring you to speak or interact with them in any way.

IF that is the reason the player doesn't group. Some players just like to do things at their own pace and enjoy the story. Or don't want to be bothered waiting around for a group to form. Or have limited time to play that day and want to get the most from it. Or aren't geared enough to feel confident in their ability to join a dungeon group. (The last one was me for awhile so I worked on my gear and builds on all my guys and now feel comfortable in group content.)

So it's not a social thing that deters everyone from group content. Some of us that enjoy solo play enjoy group content, too. Just not every time.

freespirit · January 20

SilverBride wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

I'd also add that when you are a solo player (I usually am) there are always other players like you who will happily group up for the convenience of completing content, without requiring you to speak or interact with them in any way.

IF that is the reason the player doesn't group. Some players just like to do things at their own pace and enjoy the story. Or don't want to be bothered waiting around for a group to form. Or have limited time to play that day and want to get the most from it. Or aren't geared enough to feel confident in their ability to join a dungeon group. (The last one was me for awhile so I worked on my gear and builds on all my guys and now feel comfortable in group content.)

So it's not a social thing that deters everyone from group content. Some of us that enjoy solo play enjoy group content, too. Just not every time.

To add to this, some of us have health issues that could and do, impact on our ability to stay focused or at the keyboard, even for a short time.

It can be a necessity rather than a choice.

SilverBride · January 20

freespirit wrote: »

To add to this, some of us have health issues that could and do, impact on our ability to stay focused or at the keyboard, even for a short time.

It can be a necessity rather than a choice.

That is a very good point.

Desiato · January 20

ESO has a variety of content from solo to group.

You already can't solo all content. It shouldn't be upsetting there is new group content. It should be expected.

This forum needs to drop the notion that all content must be easily available to all players. That just results in a watered down game few want to play.

SilverBride · January 20

Desiato wrote: »

ESO has a variety of content from solo to group.

You already can't solo all content. It shouldn't be upsetting there is new group content. It should be expected.

I didn't see anyone say there shouldnt be new group content. But I have seen many comment that there should not be solo dungeons. And not everyone can solo all content.

Desiato wrote: »

This forum needs to drop the notion that all content must be easily available to all players. That just results in a watered down game few want to play.

There SHOULD be content easily available to all players... not just the meta geared end gamers.

Radiate77 · January 20

There has to be aspirational content.

In @ZOS_BrianWheeler’s write-up on core combat years ago, mastery was a huge pillar.

Without content to work towards, you’re left without a driving force, and if you wanted a really good angle, you could make a fuss about the fact that we’ve received 12 man content every. Single. Year.

Meanwhile in solo land, we’ve been practicing our mastery on half decade old content. Once upon a time we got solo and four man arenas.

What happened?

IsharaMeradin · January 20

Desiato wrote: »

ESO has a variety of content from solo to group.

You already can't solo all content. It shouldn't be upsetting there is new group content. It should be expected.

This forum needs to drop the notion that all content must be easily available to all players. That just results in a watered down game few want to play.

And on the flip side, this forum needs to drop the notion that all content must be done by groups. That just results in a restrictive game few want to play.

Could we, instead, pick up the notion that it is okay for the game to have both solo and group content?

freespirit · January 20

Desiato wrote: »

ESO has a variety of content from solo to group.

You already can't solo all content. It shouldn't be upsetting there is new group content. It should be expected.

This forum needs to drop the notion that all content must be easily available to all players. That just results in a watered down game few want to play.

I totally agree but ALSO adding a story mode to any new four man dungeons makes more of the game accessible to more players.

ZoS makes beautiful looking dungeons often with great stories, why wouldn't they want more people to see their great work?

As I said earlier, personally loot is not my driving force to do these dungeons, heck no loot at all is fine, I just want the luxury of exploring and in my own sweet time!

Jaimeh · January 20

Oh this is such a metaphor for modern times...

Back on topic, I think every player should play the game in the way they enjoy and shouldn't be judged for it, as it's a hobby and a past-time, and it shouldn't bring about stress . At the same time, I also think if someone wants a reward from a particular type of content, then they should either do the content or be OK with skipping that reward.

Warhawke_80 · 12:03AM

It doesn't matter what we consider a MMORPG...it's what the devs consider ...and they want a MMORPG that has a significant solo end game....

Might as well get use to it.

Attorneyatlawl · 12:57AM

SilverBride wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

That is absolutely correct. It doesn't. Nobody really cares if some players want to play solo exclusively. They're welcome to do just that. If a solo player hears those comments you listed in the OP, it's usually because they're trying to get group content scaled down to solo difficulty, in an attempt to reap the benefits of group play without grouping.

What about those that asked for years to get overland... a solo experience... scaled with a greater difficulty and greater rewards? They are getting that so it's only fair that others can experience dungeons as a solo experience with appropriate rewards.

We had nicer, tougher but not tough, zones when the game launched. People complained from your camp and we've been without for over a decade. As Denver Ralphy mentioned, usually people are asking, nowadays, to have group rewards for solo content which isn't fair.

Also the difficulty adjustments are for individuals and fully optional, so it won't be the same as when we had ad hoc groups form and more difficulty. I wish they had split it back into a veteran adjustable, and a normal overland. That would probably work better but the ship has sailed.

Asking for content to be harder than "trivial" and make you interact with combat mechanics would be a plus not a minus, for normal overland. It would have been a breadcrumb into further content, if they had done it that way.

Soarora · 1:00AM

Nothing wrong with strictly solo players. Heck, with a lot of solo players seemingly being lore-focused, I’d argue solo players add to the immersion. They also, very importantly, contribute to the economy. I really don’t want to do overland dailies or writs every day but some people do. We’re all connected and we all help each other whether we realize it or not.

I only have two concerns:
- people who have been turned off from group content due to having a bad experience or perceiving all group players as toxic
- people who want group content to be made easier or taken away because they can’t solo it

The former group just makes me sad to see, there are nice group players out there. I wish these people well.

The latter group are a form of toxic casual anyway. And by “made easier” I don’t mean the solo dungeons, I mean people who want harder content nerfed and no more new dungeons added to the game.

Attorneyatlawl · 1:01AM

IsharaMeradin wrote: »

I don't want them to take away group content or "dumb it down" so that the average player can solo it with ease. All I have ever wanted is a story option where we can go in and actually do the story at our own pace without someone else "accidentally" running past a point where the quest becomes broken. And that they do not put in any mechanics that would prevent someone from trying to solo a group dungeon should they wish to challenge themselves on something that would be a shorter duration than doing an arena or IA.

Most of them already are soloable though? You just need to know the game a bit more.

Soarora · 1:14AM

SilverBride wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

ESO has a variety of content from solo to group.

You already can't solo all content. It shouldn't be upsetting there is new group content. It should be expected.

I didn't see anyone say there shouldnt be new group content. But I have seen many comment that there should not be solo dungeons. And not everyone can solo all content.

Desiato wrote: »

This forum needs to drop the notion that all content must be easily available to all players. That just results in a watered down game few want to play.

There SHOULD be content easily available to all players... not just the meta geared end gamers.

Someone pointed this out in the solo dungeon thread but https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/687198/no-new-dungeons is basically the exact opposite of the solo dungeon thread. There are in fact people who have posted in there who want no more dungeons added to the game because they don’t do them and there’s “too many”. There’s also the argument of Night Market’s difficulty— which is the content replacing endgame dungeon content for the entire year.

You may have misread Desiato, they said the forum should drop the notion that all content must be accessible to everyone, not that everyone shouldn’t have access to content.

robwolf666 · 1:28AM

SilverBride wrote: »

MMO only means there are multiple players in the game world at the same time. It does NOT mean that we have to group with them. Yet we frequently hear things like:
"It's an MMO and that means grouping."

"If you don't want to group maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you."

"If players only do solo content it makes it harder for others to find groups."

None of those are true. The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

Honestly mate, I don't even try to bother "debating" this stuff usually, the past few days or whatever were rare for me - you'll never convince someone with an MMO mindset that endgame isn't Grouping and PvP, it's what they always do in other MMO's, so they bring it here, along with it's naysayism. They don't give a monkeys about the history of ES, all they care about is their precious MMO and Grouping.

Like I always say - I play ESO because it's Elder Scrolls... if it wasn't for that, it would be another generic MMO and I'd avoid it like the plague.

Let them believe what they want - Solo play will always be here, it's likely the biggest ESO base anyway, given the track record of releases focussing on story and zones. If ZOS want to make Solo dungeons, or convert existing ones, they'll do it, no matter how much this minority moan about it.

Gabriel_H · 4:57AM

SilverBride wrote: »

End game dungeons and trials are optional, not required.

End game dungeons and trials are also not the only group content.

Delves - easier to solo but still with a group design
Public Dungeons - a step up in difficulty, keeps the group design
Dolmens - another step up in difficulty, especially in Chapters
World Bosses - the pinnacle of overland difficulty, and designed for groups

Yes, these can be more easily solo'd than a dungeon trifecta, but the difficulty is still around groups, but rather than a "fixed" group they allow for collaboration but without the formal "Invite to Group".

If someone puts in the effort to get the gear, understand the builds, and has the skill there is nothing in overland that cannot be solo'd BUT the design philosophy is clear; these are intended to be group activities that increase in difficulty - it has to be that way, it's an MMO.

If run up to a world boss, find a stranger there, and piled in to help and get the kill, you've just grouped up.

There are 3 exclusively solo activities in game: MA, VH, and IA - soon to be a 4th and 5th - but it is an MMO, that does mean grouping whether it is formal or informal.

Edit: Typos

Edit for Context: I run end-game, but I also run PvP, and I run Solo, I run everything. Out of all the overland content, there are only two world bosses I've never managed to solo - sometimes you need to be up at 3am when no-one is around and also have the desire to do so. I enjoy running solo, it tests my skills. The upcoming overland difficulty and solo dungeons (aka new arenas) hold no appeal for me. They are just re-hashes of old content. Honestly, meh. BUT if they have achievements or something to farm I'm going to do them, but there is nothing new or exciting about them - and honestly the Solo community should be pretty annoyed about that.

SilverBride · 5:44AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

End game dungeons and trials are optional, not required.

End game dungeons and trials are also not the only group content.

Delves - easier to solo but still with a group design
Public Dungeons - a step up in difficulty, keeps the group design
Dolmens - another step up in difficulty, especially in Chapters
World Bosses - the pinnacle of overland difficulty, and designed for groups

Most of these can be done solo. The ones that can't can be done just with other players that are doing the same content without forming official groups, which is the type of grouping I am referring to in this thread.

Almost all content is optional. Grouping is not a required way to play just because this is a multiplayer game. Solo dungeons are valid, regardless of what some may think.

frogthroat · 8:21AM

SilverBride wrote: »

The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

And like in real life, there are places where it's advised not to go alone. You can, but you might put yourself at an unnecessary risk, or come to an impasse where you need to collaborate to get further.

Gabriel_H · 8:35AM

SilverBride wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

End game dungeons and trials are optional, not required.

End game dungeons and trials are also not the only group content.

Delves - easier to solo but still with a group design
Public Dungeons - a step up in difficulty, keeps the group design
Dolmens - another step up in difficulty, especially in Chapters
World Bosses - the pinnacle of overland difficulty, and designed for groups

Most of these can be done solo. The ones that can't can be done just with other players that are doing the same content without forming official groups, which is the type of grouping I am referring to in this thread.

Almost all content is optional. Grouping is not a required way to play just because this is a multiplayer game. Solo dungeons are valid, regardless of what some may think.

Again:
If someone puts in the effort to get the gear, understand the builds, and has the skill there is nothing in overland that cannot be solo'd BUT the design philosophy is clear; these are intended to be group activities that increase in difficulty - it has to be that way, it's an MMO.

If run up to a world boss, find a stranger there, and piled in to help and get the kill, you've just grouped up.

There are 3 exclusively solo activities in game: MA, VH, and IA - soon to be a 4th and 5th - but it is an MMO, that does mean grouping whether it is formal or informal.

Seraphayel · 9:10AM

Ok, but what's the point? Is this an argument against group content? Or an argument for everyone to play like they want?

thorwyn · 9:25AM

The revelation, that MMO does not mean that grouping is absolutely mandatory to play does not mean, that all the content should be made available to those who refuse to group.
Enjoying the solo aspects of the game is fine. Very few people would disagree, because it's a no brainer.
But that's about it. Everything beyond that statement regarding developing new and tweaking existing content is a non sequitur.

KalevaLaine · 9:26AM

Normally single players shoot against groups. Same old discussion.

Gankform · 9:58AM

What I know is that you solo pvers ruined all the new games the last years.... i want more and harder grp content plz more pvp and bringtoxiccyroback!