MMO does NOT mean Grouping

SilverBride · January 20

MMO only means there are multiple players in the game world at the same time. It does NOT mean that we have to group with them. Yet we frequently hear things like:

"It's an MMO and that means grouping."
"If you don't want to group maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you."
"If players only do solo content it makes it harder for others to find groups."

None of those are true. The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

ToddIngram · January 20

All of those statements are true.

Like it or not all end game content in ESO requires grouping. Someone who refuses to group doesn't have any experience with builds, mechanics or any of the experience needed to participate in the majority of the content ESO has to offer. And it's totally reasonable to exclude these players from groups unless they seriously commit themselves to learning the necessary skills to complete any given content.

That's why the casuals that don't participate in group content shouldn't be given priority over those who do.

DenverRalphy · January 20

While that may be true..

What is also true is that MMO does not mean everything is solo friendly.

There's a reasonable expectation in a multiplayer game that much of the content will require group participation. It's been that way since the day the term MMO was coined. There's a reason it's not referred to as a MMSO (massively multi stingleplayer online).

SilverBride · January 20

ToddIngram wrote: »

All of those statements are true.

Like it or not all end game content in ESO requires grouping. Someone who refuses to group doesn't have any experience with builds, mechanics or any of the experience needed to participate in the majority of the content ESO has to offer. And it's totally reasonable to exclude these players from groups unless they seriously commit themselves to learning the necessary skills to complete any given content.

That's why the casuals that don't participate in group content shouldn't be given priority over those who do.

It is very possible to play ESO without ever doing any end game content, and that is the player's right. I didn't say anything about solo players being excludef from groups that they don't want to participate in in the first place. They shouldn't be judged and be told they are playing their game wrong and shouldn't be here.

SilverBride · January 20

DenverRalphy wrote: »

While that may be true..

What is also true is that MMO does not mean everything is solo friendly.

There's a reasonable expectation in a multiplayer game that much of the content will require group participation. It's been that way since the day the term MMO was coined. There's a reason it's not referred to as a MMSO (massively multi stingleplayer online).

Nor does it refer to it as MMOGR (massive multiplayer online group required).

SummersetCitizen · January 20

MMORPG vs. RPG

While it’s true that grouping isn’t strictly required, collaborating with others is a core feature of a game like this.

Solo play has its merits, but it can be replicated far more enjoyably… and with much greater ease… in non–live service games.

SilverBride · January 20

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

Solo play has its merits, but it can be replicated far more enjoyably… and with much greater ease… in non–live service games.

I disagree. A player that doesn't participate in group content isn't just sitting quietly alone and never interacting with others. Many of these players interact with others by chatting with their online friends while playing. And by helping others with their housing builds. And by joining trade guilds and selling. And by participating in role-playing. And by entering housing, and other types of contests.

How would their experience be better if they lose all of their in game friends and activities that do require other players presence?

End game dungeons and trials are optional, not required.

tomofhyrule · January 20

SilverBride wrote: »

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

Solo play has its merits, but it can be replicated far more enjoyably… and with much greater ease… in non–live service games.

I disagree. A player that doesn't participate in group content isn't just sitting quietly alone and never interacting with others. Many of these players interact with others by chatting with their online friends while playing. And by helping others with their housing builds. And by joining trading guilds and selling. And by participating in role-playing. And by entering housing, and other types of contests.

How would their experience be better if they lose all of their in game friends and activities that do require other players presence?

End game dungeons and trials are optional, not required.

Nobody is trying to take away the ability for solo players to play solo.

What people take issue with is the people who refuse to group for anything, and yet they demand that they should still be able to get the rewards for doing group content without grouping.

There are rewards for every playstyle in the game, from PvP to Dungeons to Trials to overland stories to Tales of Tribute. Players who want everything should therefore have to experience everything. But wanting to get something despite refusing to experience it is entitlement.

DenverRalphy · January 20

SilverBride wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

While that may be true..

What is also true is that MMO does not mean everything is solo friendly.

There's a reasonable expectation in a multiplayer game that much of the content will require group participation. It's been that way since the day the term MMO was coined. There's a reason it's not referred to as a MMSO (massively multi stingleplayer online).

Not does it refer to it as MMOGR (massive multiplayer online group required).

That is absolutely correct. It doesn't. Nobody really cares if some players want to play solo exclusively. They're welcome to do just that. If a solo player hears those comments you listed in the OP, it's usually because they're trying to get group content scaled down to solo difficulty, in an attempt to reap the benefits of group play without grouping.

SilverBride · January 20

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

Solo play has its merits, but it can be replicated far more enjoyably… and with much greater ease… in non–live service games.

I disagree. A player that doesn't participate in group content isn't just sitting quietly alone and never interacting with others. Many of these players interact with others by chatting with their online friends while playing. And by helping others with their housing builds. And by joining trading guilds and selling. And by participating in role-playing. And by entering housing, and other types of contests.

How would their experience be better if they lose all of their in game friends and activities that do require other players presence?

End game dungeons and trials are optional, not required.

Nobody is trying to take away the ability for solo players to play solo.

What people take issue with is the people who refuse to group for anything, and yet they demand that they should still be able to get the rewards for doing group content without grouping.

There are rewards for every playstyle in the game, from PvP to Dungeons to Trials to overland stories to Tales of Tribute. Players who want everything should therefore have to experience everything. But wanting to get something despite refusing to experience it is entitlement.

Telling players that they should not play an MMO if they don't group for dungeons and trials and want a solo dungeon experience to enjoy the story IS taking away their ability to enjoy content their way. Any rewards for any of these activities is determined by ZoS and is not relevant to the topic of this thread, which is how solo players are being judged by others because they play how they choose.

SummersetCitizen · January 20

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Players who want everything should therefore have to experience everything. But wanting to get something despite refusing to experience it is entitlement.

I agree with this. I don’t have to have all the skins, mounts and other collectibles associated with trial achievements. I don’t care for trials and don’t want to do them.

Maybe they will offer some of them for trade bars in the new Bazaar, or maybe not. I like that some items have to be earned through challenging content. Even if it is content I don’t play. It is a badge of honor for those who earn it.

twisttop138 · January 20

Did we really need to have this argument? This seems obvious. No one is forcing anyone to group. If you want the things from group stuff you do it. If you want the things from pvp you pvp. If you can solo group stuff, awesome! This game shines when we have stuff for everyone.

SilverBride · January 20

twisttop138 wrote: »

Did we really need to have this argument? This seems obvious. No one is forcing anyone to group. If you want the things from group stuff you do it. If you want the things from pvp you pvp. If you can solo group stuff, awesome! This game shines when we have stuff for everyone.

I wish we didn't but judging and pressuring others to play the way someone else thinks they should, and telling them they shouldn't play an MMO unless they group still happens way too frequently.

valenwood_vegan · January 20

Could argue about this all day, but tomorrow some people will want to only play solo; some will only want to run high level group content; and some will engage with a variety of activities and playstyles. And zos will hopefully keep producing content for as wide a variety of players as possible. Personally, when others try to tell me what I should be doing, I ignore them and go about my business. It's not worth worrying about, we can't control other people.

sshogrin · January 20

SilverBride wrote: »

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

Solo play has its merits, but it can be replicated far more enjoyably… and with much greater ease… in non–live service games.

I disagree. A player that doesn't participate in group content isn't just sitting quietly alone and never interacting with others. Many of these players interact with others by chatting with their online friends while playing. And by helping others with their housing builds. And by joining trade guilds and selling. And by participating in role-playing. And by entering housing, and other types of contests.

How would their experience be better if they lose all of their in game friends and activities that do require other players presence?

End game dungeons and trials are optional, not required.

By joining a guild, you are effectively being in a group of people...you may not "group" with them and do dungeons and trials, but you are still in a group of people and using their guild to sell things on a trader, or even use online players to port to in other zones.

I haven't seen anybody getting grief for playing solo, but that's been my experience. What I do see is people complaining that they can't do group content (dungeons and trials) solo. They want the devs to change the game to allow them to do group content solo. Yes, there are plenty of dungeons you can do solo, but there are a number of them that you actually have to be in a group to complete. Remember, Dungeons, Trials, and Battlegrounds is Group content and specified as that. Complaining about not being able to do that content isn't right. Trying to make the devs change the game so you can do that content solo is also not right. Solo players don't have to participate in group activities, if you don't want to do group activities, don't...but don't complain that you can't do group content "solo".

I encourage everybody to play the game how they want, and other players shouldn't give someone a hard time because they want to play solo.

SilverBride · January 20

DenverRalphy wrote: »

That is absolutely correct. It doesn't. Nobody really cares if some players want to play solo exclusively. They're welcome to do just that. If a solo player hears those comments you listed in the OP, it's usually because they're trying to get group content scaled down to solo difficulty, in an attempt to reap the benefits of group play without grouping.

What about those that asked for years to get overland... a solo experience... scaled with a greater difficulty and greater rewards? They are getting that so it's only fair that others can experience dungeons as a solo experience with appropriate rewards.

twisttop138 · January 20

SilverBride wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

Did we really need to have this argument? This seems obvious. No one is forcing anyone to group. If you want the things from group stuff you do it. If you want the things from pvp you pvp. If you can solo group stuff, awesome! This game shines when we have stuff for everyone.

I wish we didn't but judging and pressuring others to play the way someone else thinks they should, and telling them they shouldn't play an MMO unless they group still happens way too frequently.

Well, I guess this doesn't happen to me, but it shouldn't happen. That's kind of an outdated view of this genre, I think, and I'm a big grouping guy. Trials, dungeons, hell we even group up in PSN to chat while playing solo. Like I said, ESO shines in the way it has lots of stuff for people of many play styles and enjoying those things with the friends we made along the way or alone. This isn't a solo game. It's not a forced group game. It's just a game. Some of us would do well to remember that. Even me sometimes.

DenverRalphy · January 20

SilverBride wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

That is absolutely correct. It doesn't. Nobody really cares if some players want to play solo exclusively. They're welcome to do just that. If a solo player hears those comments you listed in the OP, it's usually because they're trying to get group content scaled down to solo difficulty, in an attempt to reap the benefits of group play without grouping.

What about those that asked for years to get overland... a solo experience... scaled with a greater difficulty and greater rewards? They are getting that so it's only fair that others can experience dungeons as a solo experience with appropriate rewards.

Not fair? What's unfair about it? Nobody's asking for overland to be Group level difficult. Only that it's at least a step above just being Trivial. Furthermore, just because it's Overland content does not mean it's solo content. And beyond even those two points.. the overland difficulty is being made OPTIONAL at the behest of a very vocal party (hint.. you are a member of that party). So what exactly is unfair about it?

[edit] And let us not forget and overlook what else is coming... Solo Dungeons.

Radiate77 · January 20

Honestly, you need to have a healthy balance between the two in an MMO.

twisttop138 · January 20

DenverRalphy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

That is absolutely correct. It doesn't. Nobody really cares if some players want to play solo exclusively. They're welcome to do just that. If a solo player hears those comments you listed in the OP, it's usually because they're trying to get group content scaled down to solo difficulty, in an attempt to reap the benefits of group play without grouping.

What about those that asked for years to get overland... a solo experience... scaled with a greater difficulty and greater rewards? They are getting that so it's only fair that others can experience dungeons as a solo experience with appropriate rewards.

Not fair? What's unfair about it? Nobody's asking for overland to be Group level difficult. Only that it's at least a step above just being Trivial. Furthermore, just because it's Overland content does not mean it's solo content. And beyond even those two points.. the overland difficulty is being made OPTIONAL at the behest of a very vocal party (hint.. you are a member of that party). So what exactly is unfair about it?

[edit] And let us not forget and overlook what else is coming... Solo Dungeons.

A long overdue addition to the game, harder overland. That it's optional should've put everyone at ease that was concerned. The solo dungeons thing I'm having mixed feelings about but I'm more bummed we're not getting any this year.

I don't think people should be forced to group but also that's not a thing that's happening.

SilverBride · January 20

DenverRalphy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

That is absolutely correct. It doesn't. Nobody really cares if some players want to play solo exclusively. They're welcome to do just that. If a solo player hears those comments you listed in the OP, it's usually because they're trying to get group content scaled down to solo difficulty, in an attempt to reap the benefits of group play without grouping.

What about those that asked for years to get overland... a solo experience... scaled with a greater difficulty and greater rewards? They are getting that so it's only fair that others can experience dungeons as a solo experience with appropriate rewards.

Not fair? What's unfair about it? Nobody's asking for overland to be Group level difficult. Only that it's at least a step above just being Trivial. Furthermore, just because it's Overland content does not mean it's solo content. And beyond even those two points.. the overland difficulty is being made OPTIONAL at the behest of a very vocal party (hint.. you are a member of that party). So what exactly is unfair about it?

[edit] And let us not forget and overlook what else is coming... Solo Dungeons.

I never said anything was unfair. What I said was if some get more difficult overland it is only fair that others get a solo dungeon experience. Yet there is a lot of pushback asking ZoS not to go through with it.

We also don't know how difficult players want overland to be because there was never a general consensus on that. There could possibly be difficulties that require grouping in what was easily soloable content.

twisttop138 · January 20

SilverBride wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

That is absolutely correct. It doesn't. Nobody really cares if some players want to play solo exclusively. They're welcome to do just that. If a solo player hears those comments you listed in the OP, it's usually because they're trying to get group content scaled down to solo difficulty, in an attempt to reap the benefits of group play without grouping.

What about those that asked for years to get overland... a solo experience... scaled with a greater difficulty and greater rewards? They are getting that so it's only fair that others can experience dungeons as a solo experience with appropriate rewards.

Not fair? What's unfair about it? Nobody's asking for overland to be Group level difficult. Only that it's at least a step above just being Trivial. Furthermore, just because it's Overland content does not mean it's solo content. And beyond even those two points.. the overland difficulty is being made OPTIONAL at the behest of a very vocal party (hint.. you are a member of that party). So what exactly is unfair about it?

[edit] And let us not forget and overlook what else is coming... Solo Dungeons.

I never said anything was unfair. What I said was if some get more difficult overland it is only fair that others get a solo dungeon experience. Yet there is a lot of pushback asking ZoS not to go through with it.

We also don't know how difficult players want overland to be because there was never a general consensus on that. There could possibly be difficulties that require grouping in what was easily soloable content.

If I could end world hunger right this second, there would be push back asking me not to go through with it. It just is what it is. People will not always agree. Saying you get harder overland so we should get solo dungeons? It doesn't work like that. Zos does what Zos wants. As for people being against it, when has Zos ever cared about our feedback? Idk how many solo dungeons you'll get, but it'll be at least 2.

SilverBride · January 20

Radiate77 wrote: »

Honestly, you need to have a healthy balance between the two in an MMO.

This sums it up perfectly.

KalevaLaine · January 20

For me a MMO means exactly this.

If players want to play a MMO alone, they will and can, but this is the reason why ESO ist what it is today.

It is totally unbalanced, way too easy and full of "play the way you want" styled content.

SilverBride · January 20

KalevaLaine wrote: »

If players want to play a MMO alone, they will and can, but this is the reason why ESO ist what it is today.

Not participating in group content does not mean playing alone. There are a lot of activities players can do with others besides dungeons and trials.

Last'One · January 20

Why do people cry so much about others playing solo content in an MMORPG, yet those same players are the first to find every excuse to gatekeep others from joining groups?

I mean… what are "you" even looking for? When players want to join and participate, they get blocked by DPS metas, meta builds, meta parties, everything has to be “meta.” Then, when those players get tired of it and move to solo play… you complain about that?

Like… seriously? lol

Personal Note:

I’m tired of all of you. I’m tired of group finders, Discords, and all that nonsense, because we’re forced to play exactly the way the raid leader wants.

I can’t use my favorite build. I can’t play the way I enjoy. Everything has to follow meta or spreadsheet, or you’re out. So, I get tired of it and just quit this damn game.
I might come back if ZOS adds proper difficulty to overland content. Then maybe I’ll play ESO again, alone.
And now I see players crying because others want to play solo? xD

You all did this. You pushed players out.

IsharaMeradin · January 20

I don't want them to take away group content or "dumb it down" so that the average player can solo it with ease. All I have ever wanted is a story option where we can go in and actually do the story at our own pace without someone else "accidentally" running past a point where the quest becomes broken. And that they do not put in any mechanics that would prevent someone from trying to solo a group dungeon should they wish to challenge themselves on something that would be a shorter duration than doing an arena or IA.

AScarlato · January 20

MMOs have been changing for many years now and a lot of time is spent solo in many of them.

ESO has always offered many gameplay hours of solo quests that are already braindead easy and have no reason to group for.

I think it has a good mix of solo and group activities and I think the point of OP are those people who try to shoot down solo-friendly suggestions for content as though the existence of it reduces the number of people who group.

Most people without the solo content wouldn't play this game at all, to the detriment of everyone.

sshogrin · January 20

SilverBride wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

That is absolutely correct. It doesn't. Nobody really cares if some players want to play solo exclusively. They're welcome to do just that. If a solo player hears those comments you listed in the OP, it's usually because they're trying to get group content scaled down to solo difficulty, in an attempt to reap the benefits of group play without grouping.

What about those that asked for years to get overland... a solo experience... scaled with a greater difficulty and greater rewards? They are getting that so it's only fair that others can experience dungeons as a solo experience with appropriate rewards.

When the game first started, zones were actually "level" difficulty, so the game has already been there. This is kind of going backwards, but in a different way.
Making the dungeons easier for solo play, or taking out the mechanics that you encounter that you have to have a group for would actually only make "rewards" less since things are easier to do.

freespirit · January 20

I make the choice not to do group content with other people presently.

I do solo dungeons that can be solo-ed already so for me "story mode" will be great for the harder ones.

I don't require those new modes to drop set pieces or any loot at all however I would like to be able to do the quest and get the skill point.

I would take issue with actually needing to group to learn to play properly and learn the best set ups, personally I find I learn that pretty well when on my own, trust me I see much more of the mechanics when solo than I would in a group.

Just because I choose not to group does NOT mean I don't know how to play my character's!!

SeaGtGruff · January 20

twisttop138 wrote: »

Zos does what Zos wants. As for people being against it, when has Zos ever cared about our feedback?

Um, since before the game went live, and ever since. ZOS may not take obvious action upon all of our feedback, but the fact that they do not implement every single addition, deletion, change, buff, nerf, etc. that we ask for does not mean they do not care about our feedback.