MincMincMinc wrote: »

Any build is going to be able to permablock with this one skill.

So nerf permablock in PvP, which is something that should've happened forever ago, and will continue to be a problem regardless of what happens with HOF.

To restate my point more succinctly, there is no need to change this skill... yet.

Let's live with imbalance for two years while zos updates the other classes first.

This is not tongue in cheek. Let's get all classes and see what needs adjusting. Doing it now is a bad idea... almost as bad as refreshing one class at a time... but here we are...

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

No, it doesn't... You can achieve the very same results with Siphoning Attacks or Dark Deal/Conversion (if you want to do the latter while blocking, just get Light Weaver passive from Restoring Light).

Inhale is a strong sustain skill as well now, I see nothing wrong with that.

If anything, they should introduce something similar to other classes too that are still missing sustain abilities and make them thematically different.

Itd be nice if darkdeal went back to its flat resource return. The overtime ruined the point of the skill and was a sad attempt at copying warden's netch.

---

Inhale needs to be adjusted BADLY. Any build is going to be able to permablock with this one skill. "Strong" is a vast understatement.

15% every 2s is insane though just some rough meta pvp numbers from one of my builds.
31khp == 4650hp == 2325hpPvP
16.5kmag == 2475 return/2s
22.2kstam == 3330 return/2s
In total over 3 ticks thats 24390 resources from paying 3370

Even darkdeal trades 2700 for 8560 combined resources over that same 4s period. Except darkdeal is bashable and leaves you open, not to mention on a janky long cast time. Oh and I can't maintain permablock with darkdeal.

Don't you see the risk and danger of running around at low resources to get that good value out of Heart of Flame, especially with super low base regens because Bewitched is a must with this skill?

In 1v1s in good hands this is manageable, but when you're outnumbered or just heavily pressured and can't afford to spend 25% of your globals not burst healing or refreshing buffs/HoTs, you will run into trouble.

Trouble that doesn't exist with other sustain skills because they're used in a very different manner and have their own strengths and weaknesses, as they should.

Dark Deal for instance is designed to be used with streak, kiting, LOS etc... although you can also combine some skill lines currently to make it uninterruptible (Light Weaver passive from Restoring Light, I have a warden brawler build with Dark Magic+Restoring Light+Winter's Embrace doing precisely that, can be found on my website).

Siphoning/Leeching Strikes on the other hand functions as a passive sustain/heal over time, very different functionality wise, how often/when you need to cast them etc. I also have a siphoning NB healer that I don't think has ever even run below 50% stamina in BG, even with an entire team trying to kill me.

Heart of Flame is a new contender in this category and probably strongest in good hands overall, but not by a large margin and not in every situation.

I would wait for reworks of other classes before freaking out about this, I'm happy if DK toolkit and abilities are slightly stronger than other classes', something to be excited about for next patch since it means we'll hopefully see some changes to the meta.


Also regarding the whole permablocking issue... Would we rather have people play useless zero damage troll tanks because they substitute sustain skills for set bonuses, full sturdy etc or have them actually use abilities for sustain? I know which one I'd prefer to have in my group, and which type of block build I'd prefer to play. If people want to play around block, they'll always find a way given how the whole game is designed atm.

Stronger DoTs, item sets could act as a better counter to permablocking, but unfortunately next patch is still looking like burst meta (which encourages block builds).

Decimus wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

No, it doesn't... You can achieve the very same results with Siphoning Attacks or Dark Deal/Conversion (if you want to do the latter while blocking, just get Light Weaver passive from Restoring Light).

Inhale is a strong sustain skill as well now, I see nothing wrong with that.

If anything, they should introduce something similar to other classes too that are still missing sustain abilities and make them thematically different.

Itd be nice if darkdeal went back to its flat resource return. The overtime ruined the point of the skill and was a sad attempt at copying warden's netch.

---

Inhale needs to be adjusted BADLY. Any build is going to be able to permablock with this one skill. "Strong" is a vast understatement.

15% every 2s is insane though just some rough meta pvp numbers from one of my builds.
31khp == 4650hp == 2325hpPvP
16.5kmag == 2475 return/2s
22.2kstam == 3330 return/2s
In total over 3 ticks thats 24390 resources from paying 3370

Even darkdeal trades 2700 for 8560 combined resources over that same 4s period. Except darkdeal is bashable and leaves you open, not to mention on a janky long cast time. Oh and I can't maintain permablock with darkdeal.

Don't you see the risk and danger of running around at low resources to get that good value out of Heart of Flame, especially with super low base regens because Bewitched is a must with this skill?

In 1v1s in good hands this is manageable, but when you're outnumbered or just heavily pressured and can't afford to spend 25% of your globals not burst healing or refreshing buffs/HoTs, you will run into trouble...............

In a block heavy environment its not that dangerous dipping that low. Thats how I ensure my healing souls go off on myself reliably even on a nonvamp 25khp in bgs all dps build. So long as you have enough CC immunity you can abuse block to absurd degrees. Permablocks with immovable all day would be doing this while asleep.

To live outnumbered while blocking all you are going to do is double pump the 2nd tick while spamming healing soul/vigor between. Youll get your intial return then a healing soul then the 2nd tick+new first return tick. This generally would automatically happen with gcd timing and latency so its not like its that hard to do.

Hey im all for letting it go to live and shake up the boring copy paste BIS subclassing meta we are stuck with. I just know it undermines alot of sustain choices in the game opening up doors for abuse, trying to be the red flag waver here when I see stupid happening. More power to those that want to do something different by abusing it though. Im sure we will see someone permablock solely with this skill, then bomb solely with master 2h onslaught......while still being able to fill out the rest of their build with whatever they like. Actually I will just suggest why not fill out the rest of the build with crit damage because since you are at 100% pen and crit, you may aswell stack %dmg or %critdmg.....and %crit damage is 2x most %dmg sources and its literally everywhere now with no counter because zos gutted impen.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

No, it doesn't... You can achieve the very same results with Siphoning Attacks or Dark Deal/Conversion (if you want to do the latter while blocking, just get Light Weaver passive from Restoring Light).

Inhale is a strong sustain skill as well now, I see nothing wrong with that.

If anything, they should introduce something similar to other classes too that are still missing sustain abilities and make them thematically different.

Itd be nice if darkdeal went back to its flat resource return. The overtime ruined the point of the skill and was a sad attempt at copying warden's netch.

---

Inhale needs to be adjusted BADLY. Any build is going to be able to permablock with this one skill. "Strong" is a vast understatement.

15% every 2s is insane though just some rough meta pvp numbers from one of my builds.
31khp == 4650hp == 2325hpPvP
16.5kmag == 2475 return/2s
22.2kstam == 3330 return/2s
In total over 3 ticks thats 24390 resources from paying 3370

Even darkdeal trades 2700 for 8560 combined resources over that same 4s period. Except darkdeal is bashable and leaves you open, not to mention on a janky long cast time. Oh and I can't maintain permablock with darkdeal.

That’s your numbers if completely empty at which point is when it performs best
Like the comparison I made earlier to calling balorgs op but only using it at 500 ult for an example this is going to see much less return than when you’re at 0 of each resource because at any point when you’ve got no resources in PvP most chance you’ll be dead anyway

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Yea very comparable lmao...

And you just died because you cast an empty gcd while low and under threat from multiples. Maybe it's overtuned in the specific context of being low, but it's not without risk.

The interaction with perma-block will be a problem but that's because perma-block is already a problem, on every spec, always has been, and doesn't get nearly enough hate in PvP.

Existing meta animal assassins already have seemingly infinite resources without subclassing Dark Magic or Siphoning. Does anyone even do that? Who cares if DK joins in.

Don’t be disingenuous. That scenario you gave would play out worse with Dark Deal than with Inhale. If I had dirt dry stam and enough mag to cast 1 Dark Deal, I’d have dirt dry mag and gained 3.6k stam. I’d have no mag to cast a burst heal. But you know what’s different if I had Inhale? I’d gain BOTH resources back after 4 seconds. I literally have video tests to prove that..

And no, Xylena, meta Animal/Assassin builds still require building 1.5k MINIMUM recovery with Netch/Rune. That means running Orzoga or a recovery glyph instead of Sugar Skull, which provides an effective 400 weapon damage. Inhale will allow a DK to forgo sustain food/glyphs completely and stack every thing into defense/damage. Heck, it will allow you to drop Tri Pots and run Resistance pots, which will also allow you to build even more damage via dropping defensive traits.

If you don’t take into account of these things, it will be hard to make a fair comparison between these abilities . The ability to run more damage via food/traits don’t show up on the skill tooltip, but it is real and you can already see it on the live server with Dark Deal. Inhale is just a better Dark Deal right now, which means the same principle applies for DK.

This thread is so dead, it’s literally you trying to argue against everyone else whilst your own videos reflect a significant bias 😂
You do realise this is a dk class refresh and sorc will get their turn, suppose you’re super against dark deal getting made better aswell and any sorc skills getting made better? Suppose they should all be nerfed aswell?

If Dark Deal overperforms, I will ask for it to be nerfed as well, just like when I asked for Ward to be nerfed. I’m willing to nerf my own class if it means balance. You clearly aren’t lol.

No just my opinion if I thought it was busted I’d be willing to throw it on the chopping board but it doesn’t seem it to me, that’s my opinion and many others here, and as I’ve stated already all we do is nerf classes but how are we going to nerf this into the ground and then leave it for what will end up being 3/4/5 years while other classes get buffed to the moon and subsequently subclassing gets stronger through refreshes the idea isn’t to nerf stuff into the ground on the first instance

And be real 5k dps is less than most people’s spammables 😂

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Any build is going to be able to permablock with this one skill.

So nerf permablock in PvP, which is something that should've happened forever ago, and will continue to be a problem regardless of what happens with HOF.

Well to stop permablock builds you need to hard nerf resource returns and block cost reduction glyphs......which is exactly what HOF is now doing

Otherwise you are talking some aoe cap type rule change that only lets us block for 5s or something clunky

At one time we had counter permablock methods. For instance block cost charged every 0.125s instead of every 0.25s. While at the same time all dots would hit this tick. So all you needed was a dot build to tear into a permablock build to hit every cost window.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Any build is going to be able to permablock with this one skill.

So nerf permablock in PvP, which is something that should've happened forever ago, and will continue to be a problem regardless of what happens with HOF.

At one time we had counter permablock methods. For instance block cost charged every 0.125s instead of every 0.25s. While at the same time all dots would hit this tick. So all you needed was a dot build to tear into a permablock build to hit every cost window.

This along with a ramping cost while effected with battle spirit and blocking would be delightful to see

React wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

React wrote: »

I'd rather see it go live in a strong state than a weak one. The post-rework classes should all be significantly stronger than the pre-rework ones.

Btw, why though? How is that even a good thing? I don't see any reason to move further away from established power levels. At best it causes no issues, in the worst case we will see a slew of other build components (Mundus, Generic Skills, Gear, Food) fall off even steeper. If any direction makes sense it is down.

The game is more fun when every class is strong. Strong classes are fun to play.

The goals of these reworks should be to make every class strongest when played as a pure class. Given the nature of power creep introduced by subclassing, in order to achieve this goal they're going to have to significantly buff the "pure classes", as they've done with DK.

Once they've applied this same logic to every class, including the "in class dependencies" which cannot be taken fully advantage of without pure classing, we should land in a place where pure classes are the strongest way to create a balanced setup - with subclassing available for specialized roles or to fill holes in toolkits. The way it always should have been, instead of this zero-consequence/no limitations version of subclassing we have now.

This wouldn't be necessary if subclassing wasn't introduced so haphazardly, with such little regard for the overall balance of the game. But pandora's box is open, and it is highly unlikely that they'll be making any fundamental changes to the way subclassing works at this point. After what I'm seeing with this rework, I think the best possible outcome is for them to stay the course and make every class feel as strong and good to play as the PTS DK. If they're able to do this successfully alongside the other QOL & PVP updates they've promised (and crossplay!), I think the PVP side of the game could make a real comeback in 2027.

This may sound nice, but it is quite arbitrary. It doesn't really mean anything. Strength in class balancing is always relative. Just raising the power levels across the board achieves very little besides devaluing various build options. I get that you look forward to a version where pure classes are configured in a way that they perform relatively better than optimal subclassing combinations do now. But sprinkling misadjusted abilities into the reworked class trees to do justice to a not yet existing context solves the power imbalance between subclassing and pure classing at exactly the same pace as more conservative balancing would. The only difference is that you probably shift the meta on the first few update cycles. You get this, in my opinion marginal benefit, at the cost of harming other build aspects. For example, if every class receives a tool that replaces sustain with relative ease, you will reach a point where sustain sets, sustain mundus and resource management become less and less relevant aspects of build design. And frankly, I find anything that reduces complexity simply makes the game more boring.
I think Static has raised a valid point and I agree this ability has problem potential. This can be very much reigned in with tweaks that do not harm the functionality for a majority of use cases. I am not trying to make this an argument about the validity of pureclassing, subclassing or how much fun lies in either of those. Nor do I think that a blanket powershift is something that is inherently fun or unfun. But I do very much dislike the "idc launch it broken, at least something changes" attitude, because that is exactly the mindset that brought us to where we are. Sure, in the end we don't know the great vision - but I am not so sure that the Devs know fully either. Opening Pandora's Box isn't undone by confidently opening Pandora's Baked Beans can, Pandora's locker and Pandora's wardrobe. Because honestly, I don't see them doing a comprehensive item rework in an appropriate timeframe to follow this class rework up.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

the rest of the siphoning skills are terrible and dark magic is terrible

They're not used because they don't give you the right buffs to complement the meta offensive lines, and they don't offer anything that would fill a gap like a reliable stun. Crystal Weapon is very abusable and definitely not terrible. UnHealthy Offering is... unhealthy.

It’s missing resources not max if I have 30k max mag and I’m missing 20k it’s 15% of 20k I get back not 15% of 30k
I think that’s why when I was testing it at realistic levels it seems fair
Also why I think testing it at 0 is silly because how many of us are casually running around or fighting at 0% stam or mag
I was testing it the results seemed not so great now I’m going to guess many people haven’t tested it themselves and have mistaken the wording

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

It’s missing resources not max if I have 30k max mag and I’m missing 20k it’s 15% of 20k I get back not 15% of 30k
I think that’s why when I was testing it at realistic levels it seems fair
Also why I think testing it at 0 is silly because how many of us are casually running around or fighting at 0% stam or mag
I was testing it the results seemed not so great now I’m going to guess many people haven’t tested it themselves and have mistaken the wording

That is why I suggested a cap on page 1 of this thread, because anyone with the ability to do basic math can figure out the recovery potential for resource based builds. It wouldn't even affect most of the people that are crying about nerfs and jealousy.

Vaqual wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

It’s missing resources not max if I have 30k max mag and I’m missing 20k it’s 15% of 20k I get back not 15% of 30k
I think that’s why when I was testing it at realistic levels it seems fair
Also why I think testing it at 0 is silly because how many of us are casually running around or fighting at 0% stam or mag
I was testing it the results seemed not so great now I’m going to guess many people haven’t tested it themselves and have mistaken the wording

That is why I suggested a cap on page 1 of this thread, because anyone with the ability to do basic math can figure out the recovery potential for resource based builds. It wouldn't even affect most of the people that are crying about nerfs and jealousy.

Yeah this is going to attract all the right attention for all the wrong reasons most of the about 3 people saying it’s over powered QQ meanwhile the other 80 odd people are fine with it, happy with the change or saying balance it IF NEEDED AT THE TIME !after! all the classes have been done
Butas they say, there’s always one 😂

Aso, if we aren't changing things to be more powerful and, thus, more fun, what are we even doing here?

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I’m StaticWave. Asking me if I play stamsorc or not is redundant.

My bad, thought I was talking to some DK main.

I think you undervalue the burst heal component of DD, I'm sure you fully abuse being able to spam DD with impunity while you're CC immune. HOF doesn't keep you alive while refilling your resource bar, that's uniquely powerful to DD, which makes it seem balanced with HOF.

If you're right and HOF is that busted, it won't push DK to the top, it'll get subclassed as an overloaded delayed damage source on turtle-burst assassin builds. So if they're not ready to nerf animal assassins, who cares if DK joins in. Can't break what's already broken.

I'm not undervaluing the burst heal component of DD, I know very well how good DD is when used at the right moments (spamming it while under CC immunity like you said). However, I also know very well that if my healing and defense are good enough, the burst heal component of DD becomes redundant and, more often than not, completely unnecessary.



My open world build, when fully buffed, sits at 35k resists back bar, 4.2k crit resist, 30k HP, along with Major + Minor Protection, Major + Minor Maim (Major Maim is AoE), a 5% unnamed mitigation buff, and 3 defensive blue CPs. I legitimately do not need the heal from DD because I'm tanky enough that Vigor and Surge can often keep me at full health, and Vibrant Shroud is an instant cast burst heal that I can use to recover from burst damage.

This means DD is solely used for the 2400 stamina recovery over 20s, Minor Berserk, and Minor Force (which was sadly removed for no reason). But you know what? Monomyth gives you Minor Berserk already, so there is literally no reason for me to use DD other than when I'm extremely low on stam. But guess what? When fully buffed in Sugar Skull food, I sit at 1.5k stam regen before accounting for Essence Thief, which is another 500-800 regen. That's a minimum of 2k stam regen and maximum of 2.3k stam regen in my build.

So if my build is tanky enough and has a burst heal to recover from damage, my sustain is good enough to not really need DD, and the buffs DD bring are already covered by other sources, then what is the point of DD? When you compare it to Inhale, I hope you see why I am bringing up this issue. With Inhale, I can actively use this skill as part of my offensive rotation, while also having A TON of sustain as icing on the cake. DD simply cannot compare, period.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

No, it doesn't... You can achieve the very same results with Siphoning Attacks or Dark Deal/Conversion (if you want to do the latter while blocking, just get Light Weaver passive from Restoring Light).

Inhale is a strong sustain skill as well now, I see nothing wrong with that.

If anything, they should introduce something similar to other classes too that are still missing sustain abilities and make them thematically different.

Itd be nice if darkdeal went back to its flat resource return. The overtime ruined the point of the skill and was a sad attempt at copying warden's netch.

---

Inhale needs to be adjusted BADLY. Any build is going to be able to permablock with this one skill. "Strong" is a vast understatement.

15% every 2s is insane though just some rough meta pvp numbers from one of my builds.
31khp == 4650hp == 2325hpPvP
16.5kmag == 2475 return/2s
22.2kstam == 3330 return/2s
In total over 3 ticks thats 24390 resources from paying 3370

Even darkdeal trades 2700 for 8560 combined resources over that same 4s period. Except darkdeal is bashable and leaves you open, not to mention on a janky long cast time. Oh and I can't maintain permablock with darkdeal.

Yeah, because you'll constantly be at 0% resources lmao. You want about 5.2k stam left at all times in PvP, otherwise you're outside break free range and you definitely die. Even if you're EXACTLY at the min threshold where u wanna stay that's 17k stam for 17k our of 22.2k is 76%. You'd recover 15% of 76% which is 2.5k. Siphoning Strikes gives 2.6k on cast and also lots of passive sustain. You'll also get ~4k stam back from sustain and the 1st tick by the time this effect finished. Oh no. In the BEST CASE SCENARIO I got 4k stam back over 4s. Surely a nightblade doesn't get 2600 + 4x 200 for 3400 in a 4s interval from a single cast as well, right?

BuT WhAt AbOuT MaG? You get both resources!!!!!!!

16.5k mag. you need 3.5k to cast the skill so you have 13k missing mag. that's 1.95k mag return on 1st tick. 3.5-4k mag goes up after 2s from sustain and the restore -> 9k missing mag. You get 3.3k mag back, again, IN THE BEST CASE SCENARIO.

Therefore, rather easy conclusion. It's the same as Siphoning Strikes.

Dark deal gives 4560 stam over 4s btw. Dark Deal also heals a ton AND insantly, just saying Only about half your health really, which is not worth mentioning I guess, but let's assume 10k. And you can cast it multiple times in a row, with diminishing returns obviously - the same which applies here. Oh and did I mention that Minor Berserk is pretty rare since Camo Hunter is a rather bad skill? A strong free buff is not something we mention, do we? Might skew our mental gymnastics if we did.

Did I also mention that a class rework is not supposed to make the class trash? No? Maybe it's worth mentioning this, and also the fact that eventually every class will get a refresh.

So we have:
A skill that gives back ~14000 resources instantly and another 1440 over the last 6s without you having to do anything. That would be 4450 stam over 4s + a big burst heal AND a nice buff.
A skill that gives back 5200 resources, than another 400/s indefinitely without doing anything ( which is 4000/10s ) for a total of 6.8k over 4s. A
A skill that gives 3.3 and 3.5 over 4s In the BEST case scenario, for a total of 6.8.

Oh my Godd! Would you look at that. They're balanced