DK's Inhale's sustain change needs to be reverted

hoangdz · January 19

This skill is providing TOO MUCH sustain on PTS in PvP. For 3.8k cost, it's restoring so much magicka and stamina that you can afford to run zero regen food and STILL sustain like someone with 3k recovery. You literally cannot run out of sustain with this skill active. Even if you are at 10% resources for both stam and mag, as long as you're able to cast Inhale, you will recover to 50% resources after it ends.

This results in situations where the DK player can choose to forgo building recovery completely and build into maximum damage/defense. This is something that only Sorcerer can pull off, and they can only do that for either stam or mag. DK does that for BOTH resources.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin Please forward this to the dev team so they can take a look at this skill.

Dreadwar · January 19

So what you are saying is nerf Sorcerer?

Nser · January 19

no its fine but need to increase the damage of the ability 100% and reduce the duration to 2 sec because the damage is joke.

Decimus · January 19

No, it doesn't... You can achieve the very same results with Siphoning Attacks or Dark Deal/Conversion (if you want to do the latter while blocking, just get Light Weaver passive from Restoring Light).

Inhale is a strong sustain skill as well now, I see nothing wrong with that.

If anything, they should introduce something similar to other classes too that are still missing sustain abilities and make them thematically different.

hoangdz · January 19

Decimus wrote: »

No, it doesn't... You can achieve the very same results with Siphoning Attacks or Dark Deal/Conversion (if you want to do the latter while blocking, just get Light Weaver passive from Restoring Light).

Inhale is a strong sustain skill as well now, I see nothing wrong with that.

If anything, they should introduce something similar to other classes too that are still missing sustain abilities and make them thematically different.

You can’t be serious lmao 🤣🤣

Twohothardware · January 19

Dreadwar wrote: »

So what you are saying is nerf Sorcerer?

Agreed. The infinite sustain on Sorcerer needs to be looked into.

React · January 19

I'd rather see it go live in a strong state than a weak one. The post-rework classes should all be significantly stronger than the pre-rework ones.

If siphoning attacks can exist the way it does, I don't see why this can't.

Shadesofkin · January 19

It feels like this is the first time I'm hearing this. People I know playing pvp all seem to have good things to say about DK changes overall.

I don't really see a problem (admittedly Im biased) with a very strong DK meta for a short while. Every class is gonna get it's time in the limelight with the reworks, and considering that Subclassing has been THE meta for as long as it has, I think it's high time. Let it go in strong, see what happens as it all unfolds, then dial back as needed.

YandereGirlfriend · January 19

In an era where double and triple Spec Bow exists as well as functionally free sustain via Siphoning this is such a complete and utter nothing-burger.

olsborg · January 19

I wonder where the siph tree is in current meta....oh wait..

YandereGirlfriend · January 19

olsborg wrote: »

I wonder where the siph tree is in current meta....oh wait..

I wonder where Spec Bow is in the current meta.

xylena · January 19

As others have alluded to, Dark Deal and Siphoning Strikes can also take you from 10% to 50% over several seconds. HOF's strength is being usable in your offensive rotation. The other two are better defensive casts, instead of damage, DD burst heals and SS gives immediate return. Both DD and SS can be spammed to refill to 100% much more quickly than non-spammable HOF can.

This seems pretty balanced and agree that every class should have some flavor of this effect.

hoangdz · January 19

xylena wrote: »

As others have alluded to, Dark Deal and Siphoning Strikes can also take you from 10% to 50% over several seconds. HOF's strength is being usable in your offensive rotation. The other two are better defensive casts, instead of damage, DD burst heals and SS gives immediate return. Both DD and SS can be spammed to refill to 100% much more quickly than non-spammable HOF can.

This seems pretty balanced and agree that every class should have some flavor of this effect.

You don’t need to wait for your resources to get low, you just need to cast it every 4s. There are no drawbacks because Inhale is an offensive delayed ability which will be used as part of your offensive rotation. This is not the case for Dark Deal or Siphoning as they are a sustain ability which are only used when you need the recovery.

xylena · January 19

hoangdz wrote: »

This is not the case for Dark Deal or Siphoning as they are a sustain ability which are only used when you need the recovery.

Yes that was my point, while it's very strong that HOF can be used offensively, the other two are stronger in defensive context. The burst heal on DD gives you precious bar/gcd compression. SS is immediate and can spam to full, or keep you full passively without cast. Seems balanced.

hoangdz · January 19

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

This is not the case for Dark Deal or Siphoning as they are a sustain ability which are only used when you need the recovery.

Yes that was my point, while it's very strong that HOF can be used offensively, the other two are stronger in defensive context. The burst heal on DD gives you precious bar/gcd compression. SS is immediate and can spam to full, or keep you full passively without cast. Seems balanced.

DD is a 1.2s channel that can be interrupted and only used when you need the sustain. SS costs 4k health per cast, not something you want to use when you're dry on sustain and needing to heal up.

Meanwhile, Inhale is actively casted as part of your offensive rotation and brings no drawbacks. Sustain abilities are only useful when you need the sustain, which are often casted when your resources get low. Casting DD and SS require sacrificing a GCD from your offensive rotation, which is not the case for Inhale. Didn't you argue about GCD opportunity cost when talking about Hardened Ward with the heal? How can you possibly compare these 3 without accounting for GCD opportunity cost, which you brought up all the time in the nerf Ward thread I made a year ago?

Vaqual · January 19

There is a truth to both sides of this debate. GCD efficiency aside, DD being an interruptible cast and SS costing health under battle spirit are much more pronounced drawbacks. Of course the ability should ship in a competitive state, but trivializing sustain will bite them in the back down the line.
Since there is no execute range for resource bars per se, other than being resource checked on the next action, this ability will actually benefit most from high pools and low recovery, since you can just stay at a %-resource sweet spot. This frees up capacities for damage on one hand, but also reduces the effective penalty from block based recovery downtimes quite a bit.
This matter will best be resolved by either adjusting the % returned to a flat+%, capping it or by adding another drawback layer as it is the case for DD and SS.
I think a hard cap would be most sensible in the grand scheme of balancing.

hoangdz · January 19

Vaqual wrote: »

There is a truth to both sides of this debate. GCD efficiency aside, DD being an interruptible cast and SS costing health under battle spirit are much more pronounced drawbacks. Of course the ability should ship in a competitive state, but trivializing sustain will bite them in the back down the line.
Since there is no execute range for resource bars per se, other than being resource checked on the next action, this ability will actually benefit most from high pools and low recovery, since you can just stay at a %-resource sweet spot. This frees up capacities for damage on one hand, but also reduces the effective penalty from block based recovery downtimes quite a bit.
This matter will best be resolved by either adjusting the % returned to a flat+%, capping it or by adding another drawback layer as it is the case for DD and SS.
I think a hard cap would be most sensible in the grand scheme of balancing.

That is precisely the problem I am talking about. Most builds on the live server require Orzoga or Misrule sustain food, which means they lose access to Sugar Skulls or other max stat foods that can give ~400-450 wd/sd equivalent. The only spec that can afford to run Sugar Skulls is stamsorc because of Dark Deal, but they too are limited by Dark Deal's drawbacks.

PTS DK simply does not have this issue because Inhale is instant cast, restores both stam & mag, and is beneficial to your offensive rotation. I have actually tested the sustain of this skill on PTS and found that the lower my resources are, the better my sustain gets lol...This allows DKs to run max stat food which adds even more damage to their already buffed kit, which means they can run 3 tank sets and practically never die unless they mess up really bad. Not something you want next update.

xylena · January 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Not something you want next update.

I think a lot of players would prefer a pure dk meta to the animal assassin meta. I don't think these buffs are even enough to bring pressure dk strats up to the level of turtle-burst strats, which can also very easily slot Restoring Light as their third tree.

Danse_Mayhem · January 19

ZOS pls tune this ability down.

Pls also ignore the obvious DK mains that are trying to get a ridiculously OP skill over the line.

Any skill, regardless of class, that can negate the need for any and all sustain in such a way is overtuned. Do not drown this issue in “there are bigger problems”

This is a legit concern and the ability isn’t balanced at all.

hoangdz · January 19

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Not something you want next update.

I think a lot of players would prefer a pure dk meta to the animal assassin meta. I don't think these buffs are even enough to bring pressure dk strats up to the level of turtle-burst strats, which can also very easily slot Restoring Light as their third tree.

Pressure DK on PTS is pulling 5k DPS while wearing 3 tank sets because of Corrosive, and burst DK runs Onslaught and delayed Fossilize to guarantee Onslaught hit. Both specs can run full tank and nuke people.

YandereGirlfriend · January 19

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Not something you want next update.

I think a lot of players would prefer a pure dk meta to the animal assassin meta. I don't think these buffs are even enough to bring pressure dk strats up to the level of turtle-burst strats, which can also very easily slot Restoring Light as their third tree.

Pressure DK on PTS is pulling 5k DPS while wearing 3 tank sets because of Corrosive, and burst DK runs Onslaught and delayed Fossilize to guarantee Onslaught hit. Both specs can run full tank and nuke people.

This sounds much more like overtuned ultimate problems.

Lots of folk around here hoping that Onslaught makes it over the line in its current dazzlingly overpowered state.

hoangdz · January 19

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Not something you want next update.

I think a lot of players would prefer a pure dk meta to the animal assassin meta. I don't think these buffs are even enough to bring pressure dk strats up to the level of turtle-burst strats, which can also very easily slot Restoring Light as their third tree.

Pressure DK on PTS is pulling 5k DPS while wearing 3 tank sets because of Corrosive, and burst DK runs Onslaught and delayed Fossilize to guarantee Onslaught hit. Both specs can run full tank and nuke people.

This sounds much more like overtuned ultimate problems.

Lots of folk around here hoping that Onslaught makes it over the line in its current dazzlingly overpowered state.

You can nerf DK sustain which will indirectly nerf its damage/defense by forcing it to build more sustain, or nerf 2 strong offensive ults which can allow different builds because of the 100% penetration, with one of them being usable for other classes. Idk, pick your poison.

Lord_Hev · January 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There is a truth to both sides of this debate. GCD efficiency aside, DD being an interruptible cast and SS costing health under battle spirit are much more pronounced drawbacks. Of course the ability should ship in a competitive state, but trivializing sustain will bite them in the back down the line.
Since there is no execute range for resource bars per se, other than being resource checked on the next action, this ability will actually benefit most from high pools and low recovery, since you can just stay at a %-resource sweet spot. This frees up capacities for damage on one hand, but also reduces the effective penalty from block based recovery downtimes quite a bit.
This matter will best be resolved by either adjusting the % returned to a flat+%, capping it or by adding another drawback layer as it is the case for DD and SS.
I think a hard cap would be most sensible in the grand scheme of balancing.

That is precisely the problem I am talking about. Most builds on the live server require Orzoga or Misrule sustain food, which means they lose access to Sugar Skulls or other max stat foods that can give ~400-450 wd/sd equivalent. The only spec that can afford to run Sugar Skulls is stamsorc because of Dark Deal, but they too are limited by Dark Deal's drawbacks.

PTS DK simply does not have this issue because Inhale is instant cast, restores both stam & mag, and is beneficial to your offensive rotation. I have actually tested the sustain of this skill on PTS and found that the lower my resources are, the better my sustain gets lol...This allows DKs to run max stat food which adds even more damage to their already buffed kit, which means they can run 3 tank sets and practically never die unless they mess up really bad. Not something you want next update.

Every build is dependent on running orzoga sustain food, but DK with new inhale brings back life into needing to build actual resource pools as bad is a wild take in itself. I see it as a fresh air that dks can actually consider playing with more than 18k mag and stam.

And yes, I'd rather deal with more "tanky dk builds" because it protests this current abusive proc subclass 1 gcd gank meta where the abusers are also equally tanky with seemingly infinite resources and mobility. Doesn't matter how infinitely sustain the dk has it, they are still going to be stunned through block and bombed/bursted down like everything else.

MincMincMinc · January 19

What about just making the sustain a one time per enemy hit. We lost so many of these types of skills that scale in a way that can help level the playing field for solo players, but also not be overtly strong in smaller engagements.

hoangdz · January 19

Lord_Hev wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There is a truth to both sides of this debate. GCD efficiency aside, DD being an interruptible cast and SS costing health under battle spirit are much more pronounced drawbacks. Of course the ability should ship in a competitive state, but trivializing sustain will bite them in the back down the line.
Since there is no execute range for resource bars per se, other than being resource checked on the next action, this ability will actually benefit most from high pools and low recovery, since you can just stay at a %-resource sweet spot. This frees up capacities for damage on one hand, but also reduces the effective penalty from block based recovery downtimes quite a bit.
This matter will best be resolved by either adjusting the % returned to a flat+%, capping it or by adding another drawback layer as it is the case for DD and SS.
I think a hard cap would be most sensible in the grand scheme of balancing.

That is precisely the problem I am talking about. Most builds on the live server require Orzoga or Misrule sustain food, which means they lose access to Sugar Skulls or other max stat foods that can give ~400-450 wd/sd equivalent. The only spec that can afford to run Sugar Skulls is stamsorc because of Dark Deal, but they too are limited by Dark Deal's drawbacks.

PTS DK simply does not have this issue because Inhale is instant cast, restores both stam & mag, and is beneficial to your offensive rotation. I have actually tested the sustain of this skill on PTS and found that the lower my resources are, the better my sustain gets lol...This allows DKs to run max stat food which adds even more damage to their already buffed kit, which means they can run 3 tank sets and practically never die unless they mess up really bad. Not something you want next update.

Every build is dependent on running orzoga sustain food, but DK with new inhale brings back life into needing to build actual resource pools as bad is a wild take in itself. I see it as a fresh air that dks can actually consider playing with more than 18k mag and stam.

And yes, I'd rather deal with more "tanky dk builds" because it protests this current abusive proc subclass 1 gcd gank meta where the abusers are also equally tanky with seemingly infinite resources and mobility. Doesn't matter how infinitely sustain the dk has it, they are still going to be stunned through block and bombed/bursted down like everything else.

Yea it is fresh air indeed.. Until you realize you either have to play DK, subclass Earthern Heart line, or run a pure subclass build with Onslaught if you want to compete. That novelty dies pretty quickly after a couple months when people realize it’s just the same problem but reskinned.

For this to work, ALL classes have to be buffed and released at the same time. That ain’t happening, so enjoy 8 months of DK domination until the next class gets buffed lol (WW doesn’t count)

MincMincMinc · January 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There is a truth to both sides of this debate. GCD efficiency aside, DD being an interruptible cast and SS costing health under battle spirit are much more pronounced drawbacks. Of course the ability should ship in a competitive state, but trivializing sustain will bite them in the back down the line.
Since there is no execute range for resource bars per se, other than being resource checked on the next action, this ability will actually benefit most from high pools and low recovery, since you can just stay at a %-resource sweet spot. This frees up capacities for damage on one hand, but also reduces the effective penalty from block based recovery downtimes quite a bit.
This matter will best be resolved by either adjusting the % returned to a flat+%, capping it or by adding another drawback layer as it is the case for DD and SS.
I think a hard cap would be most sensible in the grand scheme of balancing.

That is precisely the problem I am talking about. Most builds on the live server require Orzoga or Misrule sustain food, which means they lose access to Sugar Skulls or other max stat foods that can give ~400-450 wd/sd equivalent. The only spec that can afford to run Sugar Skulls is stamsorc because of Dark Deal, but they too are limited by Dark Deal's drawbacks.

PTS DK simply does not have this issue because Inhale is instant cast, restores both stam & mag, and is beneficial to your offensive rotation. I have actually tested the sustain of this skill on PTS and found that the lower my resources are, the better my sustain gets lol...This allows DKs to run max stat food which adds even more damage to their already buffed kit, which means they can run 3 tank sets and practically never die unless they mess up really bad. Not something you want next update.

Every build is dependent on running orzoga sustain food, but DK with new inhale brings back life into needing to build actual resource pools as bad is a wild take in itself. I see it as a fresh air that dks can actually consider playing with more than 18k mag and stam.

And yes, I'd rather deal with more "tanky dk builds" because it protests this current abusive proc subclass 1 gcd gank meta where the abusers are also equally tanky with seemingly infinite resources and mobility. Doesn't matter how infinitely sustain the dk has it, they are still going to be stunned through block and bombed/bursted down like everything else.

Yea it is fresh air indeed.. Until you realize you either have to play DK, subclass Earthern Heart line, or run a pure subclass build with Onslaught if you want to compete. That novelty dies pretty quickly after a couple months when people realize it’s just the same problem but reskinned.

For this to work, ALL classes have to be buffed and released at the same time. That ain’t happening, so enjoy 8 months of DK domination until the next class gets buffed lol (WW doesn’t count)

Just play a permablock build with onslaught and master 2h. Nobody solo or small man will kill you. Then against groups you can ult and wipe them with full damage while in immunity

xylena · January 19

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just play a permablock build with onslaught and master 2h. Nobody solo or small man will kill you. Then against groups you can ult and wipe them with full damage while in immunity

None of those things require you to be DK or subclass DK.

Can't break what's already broken.

Estin · January 19

There's no point in trying to compare reworked dk to all classes that haven't been reworked yet. Those classes will eventually be at the same level as reworked dk. I'm a pure NB brawler main, and I am perfectly fine with living through 1 year of patches until my class comes up to par with the reworked ones. If ZOS tries to balance reworked classes to be in line with the non reworked classes, this entire project will end up fumbling causing these 2 years to be a waste. Could they use some minor adjustments? Yeah, some minor number tweaks could be added. I'm hearing through the grapevine that you can perma block indefinitely with soul of flame. That can recieve a minor tweak so it wont be as strong. Should the skills be gimped to complete uselessness because it's deemed over powered against a class that hasn't been reworked? No, it shouldn't, and will defeat the entire purpose of the reworks, and the same people who cried for these heavy handed nerfs will eventually complain that the reworked classes are too weak and ineffective against subclassing.

It doesn't matter if everyone is going to be playing dk as soon as u49 drops. We've lived through a year of mag sorcs that can insta kill you from 28 meters away while also being incredibly tanky. We're living through the terrible assassination/storm calling/animal companions/restoring light meta that everyone and their mother is currently running for whats going to be almost a year. A new class rework is going to happen every 3 months (Dk in march, WW in june, Warden in september, and Sorc in december). The options are quickly going to expand compared to what we had to live through before. We will be perfectly fine.

Shadesofkin · January 19

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

ZOS pls tune this ability down.

Pls also ignore the obvious DK mains that are trying to get a ridiculously OP skill over the line.

Any skill, regardless of class, that can negate the need for any and all sustain in such a way is overtuned. Do not drown this issue in “there are bigger problems”

This is a legit concern and the ability isn’t balanced at all.

I mean, I'll be the first to admit, it's in my signature. DK main for life.
Maybe reworded to only affect monsters at it's current strength is the compromise?

tomofhyrule · January 19

It definitely does seem very powerful, especially if the design of the Class is "expensive DoTs punctuated by frequent ults supported by Battle Roar The Storm Voice"

I find it strange that Dragon Blood, which healed based on a percentage of missing health, was changed to a flat number with scaling, but they added a percentage-remaining-based scaling on Inhale Core of Flame. They even said

[Dragon blood will] now heal based on your Max Health and increase based on your missing Health, rather than scaling exclusively off your missing Health. This should make them more reliable and comparable to other self-heals, but with the nuance that they’re weaker at high Health but stronger at lower Health.

It might make more sense, and be more consistent, for the Core of Flame resource restore to use similar logic.

(of course, I still support leaving the Deep Breath morph as it is on Live and then having the other one be the resource-restory long-lead-time-burst-damagey one)

MincMincMinc · January 19

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just play a permablock build with onslaught and master 2h. Nobody solo or small man will kill you. Then against groups you can ult and wipe them with full damage while in immunity

None of those things require you to be DK or subclass DK.

Can't break what's already broken.

CORRECT, really you just need to stack sustain for a permablock to work.......which if anyone has taken a look around, sustain is absolutely everywhere and disturbingly efficient everywhere.