New Telvar for Queueing Limit is too low

ESO_player123 · January 17

reazea wrote: »

So just buy some sigils of imperial retreat. Does the same thing and they're not expensive. Just a bit of AP.

How much is a bit? I'm pretty sure that for any player that does not PvP and goes to IC to just do the dailies (like me) it would not be feasible. I personally am not trying to protect telvar I'm getting in the process of preloading the dailies for the events. I'm trying to leave as quick as possible. So, I guess it will be blood porting via mobs from now on. There is no way I'm wasting my time by running to the base after each daily.

nightbringer1993 · January 17

All that I hope is that warden charm gets removed because I can see those toxic trolls coming to get people stuck in walls just like in BGs and this time people won't be able to escape if they have 100+ tel var. Those teleportation stones are expensive and also can't be used in combat. So ZOS better do something on this charm exploit before this patch goes live because otherwise I'll stay away from IC. If you are out of stones, your char will be stuck for a long time and I don't want that to happen to anyone. It is already anoying enough in BGs but now if it goes in IC it will be even worst.

AzuraFan · January 17

reazea wrote: »

So just buy some sigils of imperial retreat. Does the same thing and they're not expensive. Just a bit of AP.

Logging out would be cheaper.

This situation reminds me of what we have to put up with in RL because there are bad actors who want to hack into accounts. Because of a small number of bad actors, we all have to put up with the inconvenience of having to jump through hoops at times to access our own accounts.

Here, because there's a small group of bad actors who queue for Cyrodiil while in combat, we'll now all have to put up with inconvenience. We're all being penalized, whether we're in IC to PvP or PvE. The game knows when we're in combat, as anyone who's been stuck in combat at a wayshrine knows. So why can't it just prevent leaving IC while in combat, just like it prevents us from porting at a wayshrine while in combat?

BergisMacBride · January 17

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We’ll touch base with teams to get some answers.

@ZOS_Kevin , I posted my thoughts in the other thread but figured I’d add my 2 cents here since you’re watching this thread.

I’m mostly PvE and usually only play in IC for tickets or the odd endeavor. Not really a big PvP player although I do enjoy my time in there. If I get ganked I don’t really mind cause I always bank all my tel var before entering and rarely have more than 500 on me. I almost never engage gankers and just take the blood port. No big deal.

I frequently use port to Cyrodiil as a time saving convenience cause my play time is much more important to me than whatever tel var I might save by navigating the sewers back to the base. I’ve never used it while getting ganked or when in danger of being killed by mobs.

My preference would be to continue allowing port to Cyrodiil out of combat or when in a safe zone. If not either of these then I’d suggest raising the cap to 500. 100 is too low imo.

For my playing style, if this goes live without changes, when I’m done with my business in IC. I’ll just blood port off a mob to save time and pay the 50% tel var surcharge to Molag Bal for the continued convenience of saving time.

Edit to remove my comment about retreat stones. For some reason I thought they cost tel var and not AP. I still probably won’t use them either even though I have plenty of AP since in most cases blood porting is quicker.

imPDA · January 17

AzuraFan wrote: »

10k telvar?

AP. Yes, it is still probably too much, or probably not. 1 keep def in Cyro = ~6-8k AP for comparison. If you will use them every 5 minutes, yes, it will not work but I have been spending AP as much as I could and still end up with this

ESO_player123 · January 17

imPDA wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

10k telvar?

AP. Yes, it is still probably too much, or probably not. 1 keep def in Cyro = ~6-8k AP for comparison. If you will use them every 5 minutes, yes, it will not work but I have been spending AP as much as I could and still end up with this

It might be nothing for people who PvP and farm telvar, but for those who are doing dailies for events it does not make sense to spend 10K AP to port out. And yes, it will be every 10-15 min depending on how fast the dailies are done.

AzuraFan · January 17

imPDA wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

10k telvar?

AP. Yes, it is still probably too much, or probably not. 1 keep def in Cyro = ~6-8k AP for comparison. If you will use them every 5 minutes, yes, it will not work but I have been spending AP as much as I could and still end up with this

I can understand why 10k AP or telvar or whatever is perhaps cheap (or not expensive) to someone who engages in a lot of PvP. But I'm just a PvEer who likes to putter around the sewers every once in a while, and any telvar I earn goes into my "buying leads" fund. I don't have much AP because I don't do much in Cyrodiil. If they offer a recall stone for gold or for 50 telvar or something, then maybe it could work. If not, I'll have to log out to leave IC if I'm far away from my alliance base (or hope ZOS comes up with a more sensible solution that doesn't discourage people from going into IC, or penalize those who aren't bad actors).

LunaFlora · January 17

i use nearly all my Alliance Points and Tel Var Stones for collectibles and furnishings.

i would need dozens of those Retreat Sigils, not spending my points on that.

Danse_Mayhem · January 17

No way.

Disable being able to que out completely imo.

Same for cyrodil. Someone shouldn’t just be able to peace out to safety mid fight in a combat zone under any condition.

ESO_player123 · January 17

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

No way.

Disable being able to que out completely imo.

Same for cyrodil. Someone shouldn’t just be able to peace out to safety mid fight in a combat zone under any condition.

We are not asking to be able to teleport mid fight. We are asking for raising slightly the amount of telvar to be able to teleport when OUT OF COMBAT. 500 will do the trick.

Kappachi · January 17

Seems fine to me, if you want to participate in PvP zone then take the PvP risks. Just exit the zone like normal instead of using cheap tricks and if you get ganked on the way then that's that.

ESO_player123 · January 17

Kappachi wrote: »

Seems fine to me, if you want to participate in PvP zone then take the PvP risks. Just exit the zone like normal instead of using cheap tricks and if you get ganked on the way then that's that.

By "normal" do you mean blood porting? Because there is no way I'm wasting my time running to the exit. 1 ticket (or whatever the new currency equivalent will be) simply will not worth the hassle.

Markytous · 12:08AM

The solution simply cannot be keeping it how it is on live. Advocating for exploits and addons that exploit gameplay mechanics has been treated far too leniently when it comes to Imperial City and I think its time we just allow them to fix the exploit and move on. Its PVP content and the expectation should be that PVP is in its design. It is designed to be a commitment of time by design for those who enjoy PvPvE content. If this is not for you, please; nobody is forcing you to play it. Season 0 will give plenty of opportunities to get you rewards across all of Tamriel. We don't need to keep exploits in the game for any reason. People have been suspended for much less.

Markytous · 12:10AM

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

No way.

Disable being able to que out completely imo.

Same for cyrodil. Someone shouldn’t just be able to peace out to safety mid fight in a combat zone under any condition.

We are not asking to be able to teleport mid fight. We are asking for raising slightly the amount of telvar to be able to teleport when OUT OF COMBAT. 500 will do the trick.

This also should only be able to happen when in safe zones (the ones at base camps and the ones before dropping into the actual play area).

Markytous · 12:15AM

AzuraFan wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

So just buy some sigils of imperial retreat. Does the same thing and they're not expensive. Just a bit of AP.

Logging out would be cheaper.

This situation reminds me of what we have to put up with in RL because there are bad actors who want to hack into accounts. Because of a small number of bad actors, we all have to put up with the inconvenience of having to jump through hoops at times to access our own accounts.

Here, because there's a small group of bad actors who queue for Cyrodiil while in combat, we'll now all have to put up with inconvenience. We're all being penalized, whether we're in IC to PvP or PvE. The game knows when we're in combat, as anyone who's been stuck in combat at a wayshrine knows. So why can't it just prevent leaving IC while in combat, just like it prevents us from porting at a wayshrine while in combat?

Said bad actors also include the farmers that queue out after Molag Bal Simulacrum with their 20-30k Tel Var haul risk-free. The change proposed and presented here on PTS fixes all issues; the queue-during-fights exploiters, the ganker-queue exploiters and the farmer-queue exploiters. This is darn-near a silver bullet at this point. Overall, a great change! I think the only things we can debate at all that is valid are the amount of Tel-Var to cut-off queue and what is considered a "Safe Zone". Ideally, Base Camps and in my opinion the 100 Tel-Var Leeway was VERY generous, even. I'm really happy that ZOS is fixing this exploit. The other exploit that needs looking at which many will also likely push back against is the Lightning Staff Tri-Focus 1shot exploit that occurs only in Imperial City.

AzuraFan · 12:32AM

Kappachi wrote: »

Seems fine to me, if you want to participate in PvP zone then take the PvP risks. Just exit the zone like normal instead of using cheap tricks and if you get ganked on the way then that's that.

I'll just log out when I'm done. It's not as convenient, but it'll work.

Markytous wrote: »

... and I think its time we just allow them to fix the exploit and move on.

Everyone agrees that queuing for Cyrodiil during combat should be fixed. Some of us are just suggesting that they fix that situation specifically, rather than imposing an arbitrary telvar limit that prevents people who aren't in combat from quickly leaving IC.

ESO_player123 · 12:41AM

Markytous wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

No way.

Disable being able to que out completely imo.

Same for cyrodil. Someone shouldn’t just be able to peace out to safety mid fight in a combat zone under any condition.

We are not asking to be able to teleport mid fight. We are asking for raising slightly the amount of telvar to be able to teleport when OUT OF COMBAT. 500 will do the trick.

This also should only be able to happen when in safe zones (the ones at base camps and the ones before dropping into the actual play area).

@Markytous Should the vaults count? If not, then that would negate the whole purpose of the request to increase the limit. If we are not allowed to teleport AT ALL from IC "floor", then they as well may set the limit to 0. People who want to get out quickly after doing dailies will be simply blood porting out (I know I will).

Markytous · 12:46AM

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

No way.

Disable being able to que out completely imo.

Same for cyrodil. Someone shouldn’t just be able to peace out to safety mid fight in a combat zone under any condition.

We are not asking to be able to teleport mid fight. We are asking for raising slightly the amount of telvar to be able to teleport when OUT OF COMBAT. 500 will do the trick.

This also should only be able to happen when in safe zones (the ones at base camps and the ones before dropping into the actual play area).

@Markytous Should the vaults count? If not, then that would negate the whole purpose of the request to increase the limit. If we are not allowed to teleport AT ALL from IC "floor", then they as well may set the limit to 0. People who want to get out quickly after doing dailies will be simply blood porting out (I know I will).

No, I don't think they should. They're part of the "reward" for participating in the "risk" of the Imperial City; entering the districts and accessing them. The exception would be the absolutely profitable vaults located in the White-Gold Tower and the Imperial City Prison dungeon instances. The district vaults are already non-combat zones and are fairly close to each factions' sewer base camps. Imperial City should reward players should they decide to participate in its higher-risk PvPvE mechanics. Fixing the queue-outs without the use of Sigil of Imperial Retreat restores the initial intent of the content, essentially. Players should have to engage with IC content if they want IC rewards.

ESO_player123 · 1:10AM

Markytous wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

No way.

Disable being able to que out completely imo.

Same for cyrodil. Someone shouldn’t just be able to peace out to safety mid fight in a combat zone under any condition.

We are not asking to be able to teleport mid fight. We are asking for raising slightly the amount of telvar to be able to teleport when OUT OF COMBAT. 500 will do the trick.

This also should only be able to happen when in safe zones (the ones at base camps and the ones before dropping into the actual play area).

@Markytous Should the vaults count? If not, then that would negate the whole purpose of the request to increase the limit. If we are not allowed to teleport AT ALL from IC "floor", then they as well may set the limit to 0. People who want to get out quickly after doing dailies will be simply blood porting out (I know I will).

No, I don't think they should. They're part of the "reward" for participating in the "risk" of the Imperial City; entering the districts and accessing them. The exception would be the absolutely profitable vaults located in the White-Gold Tower and the Imperial City Prison dungeon instances. The district vaults are already non-combat zones and are fairly close to each factions' sewer base camps. Imperial City should reward players should they decide to participate in its higher-risk PvPvE mechanics. Fixing the queue-outs without the use of Sigil of Imperial Retreat restores the initial intent of the content, essentially. Players should have to engage with IC content if they want IC rewards.

Ok. Blood port through mobs it is then. They can have my 100 telvar.

ShadowPaladin · 4:06AM

Perhaps it is time to take an approach from another direction and instead of focusing on *we should or we should not be able to port with X amount of telvar*, we should focus on "why the hell are players staying aways from IC or are leaving IC and only come back during events".

The answer to that is the same thing which is the reasons everyone is angry about the queue changes - *LOOSING TELVAR* !

If you cannot port chances are high that you may get killed and will loose 50% of your telvar. If you go to IC, want to play and get some Telvar along the way, you will loose it the moment you are ganked, banged, tanked and what ever ...anged

. The loss of Telvar is the major reason people stay away or are leaving IC for good (except for events).

So, why not think about some possible changes which will still keep a certain degree of risk, but also minimize the risk starting from a certain point.

For example:

ZOS could make it so that a player who kills another one will only get for the 1st kill of the day 50% of the Telvar from the killed player. For the 2nd kill a player will only get 40%, 3rd will be 30%, 4th will be 20% and the 5th kill will be 10%. Until the general reset-time (where daily quests do reset) the Telvar amount to bei gained from killing a player will be limited to 10%.
If reducing the amount of Telvar gained from a kill after the 1st kill is too much, it could be changed to 5 kills per day with 50% and starting with the 6th kill decreasing by 10% with each kill, until 10% are reached.

With this two problems would be solved. 1 ) The loss of Telvar would be limited. 2 ) One of the major reasons to be ganked by other players would be gone for good, since after the 5th kill or depending on the limition applied, after the xth kill the Telvar gain would be so low that Telvar would no longer be a reason. The only reasons left would be the "I feel so great ganking up on people who don't PvP, because it gives me the feeling I am the greats of all!" and "Who has the biggest .... kill count of none PvP'ers to show off with.".

Markytous · 4:15AM

ShadowPaladin wrote: »

Perhaps it is time to take an approach from another direction and instead of focusing on *we should or we should not be able to port with X amount of telvar*, we should focus on "why the hell are players staying aways from IC or are leaving IC and only come back during events".

The answer to that is the same thing which is the reasons everyone is angry about the queue changes - *LOOSING TELVAR* !

If you cannot port chances are high that you may get killed and will loose 50% of your telvar. If you go to IC, want to play and get some Telvar along the way, you will loose it the moment you are ganked, banged, tanked and what ever ...anged . The loss of Telvar is the major reason people stay away or are leaving IC for good (except for events).

So, why not think about some possible changes which will still keep a certain degree of risk, but also minimize the risk starting from a certain point.

For example:

ZOS could make it so that a player who kills another one will only get for the 1st kill of the day 50% of the Telvar from the killed player. For the 2nd kill a player will only get 40%, 3rd will be 30%, 4th will be 20% and the 5th kill will be 10%. Until the general reset-time (where daily quests do reset) the Telvar amount to bei gained from killing a player will be limited to 10%.
If reducing the amount of Telvar gained from a kill after the 1st kill is too much, it could be changed to 5 kills per day with 50% and starting with the 6th kill decreasing by 10% with each kill, until 10% are reached.

With this two problems would be solved. 1 ) The loss of Telvar would be limited. 2 ) One of the major reasons to be ganked by other players would be gone for good, since after the 5th kill or depending on the limition applied, after the xth kill the Telvar gain would be so low that Telvar would no longer be a reason. The only reasons left would be the "I feel so great ganking up on people who don't PvP, because it gives me the feeling I am the greats of all!" and "Who has the biggest .... kill count of none PvP'ers to show off with.".

Ganking isn't the problem in the Imperial City. This is not going to stop me from steamrolling through the IC defeating every mob, boss and player I run over. This is not going to stop me from engaging in PVP in a zone designed for PVP. If we are going to zero in on "ganking" then we should be looking into skills related to Vampire which deal crazy damage when your HP is low. I will still be farming all the mobs in the IC and attempt to defeat every player opposed to my faction that I encounter. I'm not going to stop doing this because enemy players drop less Tel Var Stones. Its a PVP zone. Players who enjoy PvPvE are going to continue to play is normally aka hit mobs and enemy players as they appear.

Again, the final line shows a clear bias against PVP and the PVP players of online gaming. There is PVE content available in spades across ESO and beyond. There is no reason why the Imperial City cannot exist as it is. Currently it is one of the more lucrative ways to play the game and if we eliminate the risk that is involved it just inflates the near-nonexistent economy the game has. All that would happen is that players who have learned the game and can handle themselves solo in a PvPvE setting will experience a slightly reduced income while baiting PvE players who despise PVP players to get killed YET AGAIN as we pretend reducing Tel Var drops will magically stop them from being attacked in a PVP zone.

Contraptions · 5:53AM

ShadowPaladin wrote: »

Perhaps it is time to take an approach from another direction and instead of focusing on *we should or we should not be able to port with X amount of telvar*, we should focus on "why the hell are players staying aways from IC or are leaving IC and only come back during events".

The answer to that is the same thing which is the reasons everyone is angry about the queue changes - *LOOSING TELVAR* !

If you cannot port chances are high that you may get killed and will loose 50% of your telvar. If you go to IC, want to play and get some Telvar along the way, you will loose it the moment you are ganked, banged, tanked and what ever ...anged . The loss of Telvar is the major reason people stay away or are leaving IC for good (except for events).

I have to agree with this. If we're being all experimental this year, they should make a temporary "vengeance IC" campaign or something that adds back the original PVE mob amounts while disabling TV loss on death. I guarantee population and interest in IC would explode.

imPDA · 7:46AM

Contraptions wrote: »

I have to agree with this. If we're being all experimental this year, they should make a temporary "vengeance IC" campaign or something that adds back the original PVE mob amounts while disabling TV loss on death. I guarantee population and interest in IC would explode.

Interest of noobs wanted to farm Tel Vars for absolute free. No matter if they die, they can respawn, damage a boss so Tel Var reward will be split, and they receive some Tel Vars for absolute free.

If loosing Tel Vars is so bad, I have another proposal - Tel Var free IC, with no Tel Var drop, no Tel Var lose, for death intolerant people. I want to remind you; they are just pixels in a game

I you afraid of dying in computer game, please don't join PvP. I even received hate whispers from people saying they had a bad day and trying to relax in IC, and I was killing them, so they were very angry about it.

This is all consequences of game trying to follow casual players, everything was simplified to its limit, and following this trend, average skill of players drastically decreased. If this change will make you leave IC, nobody will probably even notice it. Most likely you always die in one shot and the only thing different you from mob is @id above a character model. I am not talking about anybody in particular, but about all PvE players who will drop IC. If you don't like the rule, don't play the game. I don't like ToT, I am not playing it. Easy.

While I understand people complaining about this change, as I was a noob and low skilled player too, I have to admit it is change for player who really knows how to play IC and not for beginner, unfortunately. IC will become less beginner-friendly, and only who will adopt and will be ready to learn new things will succeed. You can't change chess rules only because 100 ELO player plays against grandmaster.

The problem with IC is reward absence. For years PvP had no good rewards, so it was the place for very committed people who left after getting bored. I can say, season zero can successfully get some player back, I started to see people left 1.5-2 years ago lurking around and asking what the current state is.

warm_blanket · 7:55AM

Since @ZOS_Kevin is commenting I'll add my thoughts.

This change is a good attempt to address players dodging the risk component of farming telvar, but it has some holes.

There are reliable ways to leave IC without queuing for anything, so adjusting telvar limits won't help that much. At the same time it is nice that you can currently play in IC while waiting in a queue, and accepting it when it pops. I'd suggest a slightly different approach:

1) You cannot port out of IC while in combat
2) Porting out of IC (without using a sigil) costs half of your carried telvar, the same as dying

This leaves players able to freely enter and leave IC for any purpose without touching the intended risk/reward for farming telvar.

Also since I'm at it it would be great if we could respawn at any IC district regardless of who owns its flag.

BergisMacBride · 3:11PM

warm_blanket wrote: »

Since @ZOS_Kevin is commenting I'll add my thoughts.

This change is a good attempt to address players dodging the risk component of farming telvar, but it has some holes.

There are reliable ways to leave IC without queuing for anything, so adjusting telvar limits won't help that much. At the same time it is nice that you can currently play in IC while waiting in a queue, and accepting it when it pops. I'd suggest a slightly different approach:

1) You cannot port out of IC while in combat
2) Porting out of IC (without using a sigil) costs half of your carried telvar, the same as dying

This leaves players able to freely enter and leave IC for any purpose without touching the intended risk/reward for farming telvar.

Also since I'm at it it would be great if we could respawn at any IC district regardless of who owns its flag.

This is actually a great solution, imo. Stops the abuse of porting to avoid losing tel var and preserves fast, efficient travel. Allows players to spend time in IC while waiting for a Cyrodiil queue. This is much better than what ZOS is proposing, and I say this as a mostly PvE player who would take the 50% tel var hit in most cases.

SaffronCitrusflower · 3:38PM

ESO_player123 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

So just buy some sigils of imperial retreat. Does the same thing and they're not expensive. Just a bit of AP.

How much is a bit? I'm pretty sure that for any player that does not PvP and goes to IC to just do the dailies (like me) it would not be feasible. I personally am not trying to protect telvar I'm getting in the process of preloading the dailies for the events. I'm trying to leave as quick as possible. So, I guess it will be blood porting via mobs from now on. There is no way I'm wasting my time by running to the base after each daily.

I'm pretty sure the sigil of imperial retreat only costs 10k AP, which is not very much at all.

Oblivion_Protocol · 6:39PM

I have a genuine question that I would like an honest answer to. Why does the prospect of getting rid of Tel Var loss upset some of you so much? It’s literally a win-win scenario. You still get your Tel Var. You still get to PvP. And casual players can farm their Tel Var without fear that their work will be deleted in seconds.

imPDA · 6:51PM

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

I have a genuine question that I would like an honest answer to. Why does the prospect of getting rid of Tel Var loss upset some of you so much? It’s literally a win-win scenario. You still get your Tel Var. You still get to PvP. And casual players can farm their Tel Var without fear that their work will be deleted in seconds.

As a PvP player, the Tel Var loss mechanic is essential to the high-stakes, high-reward identity of the Imperial City. It creates real tension and consequence, elevating the risk versus reward that makes PvP there meaningful and intense. Removing it would dilute the zone’s unique danger and turn it into just another safe farming area, stripping away what makes it distinct and rewarding for competitive players.

This change will collect a lot of players, yes, it will explode IC, but what is the point in fighting against 20k PvE players? It will not add skilled players, and it will made IC even more boring and all PvP players will leave forever from this game of casuals, where last resort of hardcore will be lost. It will also make casuals farm everything they want fast and leave, decreasing game retention time.

If you want to make it like this, let's make some other zones (or at least adjacent to Cyrodiil) PvP zones (with exception for cities), this will add some pepper into casual gameplay, and it will be fun

React · 6:57PM

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

I have a genuine question that I would like an honest answer to. Why does the prospect of getting rid of Tel Var loss upset some of you so much? It’s literally a win-win scenario. You still get your Tel Var. You still get to PvP. And casual players can farm their Tel Var without fear that their work will be deleted in seconds.

Bolded the part of your statement that is completely untrue.

I earn the vast majority of my telvar by killing other players. Whether they're PVP players, farmers, questers - doesn't matter. I've actually been able to sustain my alchemy supplies for the entire lifespan of the game this way. It is one of the only reward systems in the entire game that provides a worthwhile reward, where the highest skill players are able to gain the most benefit. This is something seriously lacking across the entirety of the game. You SHOULD be able to earn the most gold, or get the best gear, the best cosmetics, etc by achieving the highest skill ceiling possible. It creates aspirational goals that are good for the long term health of the game.

Here is a screenshot from one of my old videos back when we had the 7 day telvar events - 1.8M telvar earned in 7 days, just by fighting other players.

valenwood_vegan · 7:38PM

Given how this thread has developed since I tagged Kevin, I just wanted to re-clarify that there's, imo, a distinct issue here of players asking to keep a convenient way to leave IC, to cover a variety of situations where someone just wants to leave and move on to a different activity, rather than trying to escape combat or bypass tel-var loss.

I just want to make double sure that aspect of the issue is communicated back to the team and doesn't get lost in a larger discussion of the merits (or not) of getting rid of the telvar loss mechanic.