New Telvar for Queueing Limit is too low

valenwood_vegan · January 13

Ishtarknows wrote: »

What about when you get knocked outside the map by a sewer boss and get stuck? TPing to Cyrodiil has been the only way I've found to counteract this.

Oh that's a good point too. It just seems like not a smart game design to have a zone with potentially no fallback method to get out.

CameraBeardThePirate · January 13

Ishtarknows wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

What about when you get knocked outside the map by a sewer boss and get stuck? TPing to Cyrodiil has been the only way I've found to counteract this.

There is a /stuck command.

That works in combat?

It takes a bit longer (as the game wants to make sure you aren't abusing it to escape a fight you don't think you can win), but yes, eventually the game will respawn you in a different location.

Wereswan · January 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

My advice would be to bump the queue out limit to 2500 Tel Var, anyone who cares about that little amount clearly needs it more than I do, but it wouldn't make leaving IC an obnoxious chore just because I needed to do one quest and maybe got a kill in the process.

2500 would be too much because then you've killed multiple bosses. I think the total should be low enough that anyone killing bosses or engaging in serious pvp can't port. But it also should be high enough that you won't get it by accident doing basically nothing.

As a PvE player who goes out of their way to avoid any combat that isn't strictly necessary to complete a daily, I end up with around 1,500 or so after completing all six districts.

100 is absurdly low. Much as it pains me to say it, 2,500 is probably too high.

Edit to add: I failed to account for deaths along the way. On those rare occasions where I make it through without someone/something killing me, it's more like 3,000 Tel Var acquired.

Taggund · January 15

I'm primarily a Cyro player, but do sometimes play in IC as I need to replenish tel var for hakeijo and the leads vendor.

I think being in combat would be the better alternative to restricting being able to port out, instead of how many tel var one has.

I ran the daily IC quests last night on one of my alts (prep for mayhem turn ins), and 100 is too low. The quests that required killing mobs brought me close to 100, but not over. However, looting one treasure chest did take me over. I'd pretty much not loot those once this is implemented.

In general, i could probably run all the quests, and still be able to leave without wasted time, if under 500 or 1000. If implemented, I'd port out after each quest. I'd also do more to avoid PVP, and I'd avoid sections of IC (like the center Molag Ball section) because of the additional time to leave.

I also did this in IC CP on PC NA around 6pm ET. I only saw a couple other players. I think this change will most likely discourage play in IC beyond the low level it already is.

Mr_Friendly · January 15

I'm queue number 80 for Grey Host. I've waited, and played in IC to kill time for over an hour. I have more than 100 telvar.

I can't get ported out and lost over an hour of waiting for the activity I wanted?

twisttop138 · January 15

Easy. If you use the Q to escape combat, the person your fighting gets the telvar they would've gotten if they killed you. Done. Next issue.

gariondavey · January 15

I have spent a ton of time in ic over the years. I love the zone, and I like the change zos is putting in for this.

I would be ok with 500 tel var as the limit instead of the proposed 100, but more than 500 goes beyond "1 ic daily quest" levels of leniency, which I believe is kind of the point here.

Wereswan · January 15

gariondavey wrote: »

I have spent a ton of time in ic over the years. I love the zone, and I like the change zos is putting in for this.

I would be ok with 500 tel var as the limit instead of the proposed 100, but more than 500 goes beyond "1 ic daily quest" levels of leniency, which I believe is kind of the point here.

I picked up over 500 just from one "kill things and rescue citizens" mission in the Arena distict.

Alphawolf01A · January 15

Out of curiosity, how would this even work during double telvar events?

imPDA · January 16

Alphawolf01A wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how would this even work during double telvar events?

PvE Tel Var farmers will farm 4-5-6k, then try to go base via IC and get killed by sneaky bombers and gankers, and respawn with 2-3k -> repeat.

This limit is there probably just to make people who randomly joined IC teleport out faster, and for literally everyone else it will become a wall. If they would disallow teleport for everyone, it would be not convenient for people who joined by mistake, or who was just lurking around. And if you do quests, killing mobs and receiving Tel Vars from them, you will have to play it differently and either buy teleport, or use bloody port, or walk.

Al_Ex_Andre · January 16

edit : I was wrong, you can tp freely in base

valenwood_vegan · January 16

Hey @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom - since we're getting more back and forth with you guys and the devs during this PTS, I just wondered if zos might have anything to say on this issue?

I'm just curious to hear the thinking behind this change and whether there might be consideration of an alternative that would reduce the friction for players in terms of leaving IC, while still preventing abuse in terms of farming telvar and escaping from combat.

I realize it's probably not as pressing as a lot of other issues, but I do worry it will increase player frustration with IC and reduce interest in the zone even *more*. To make this complaint into a specific example, the other day I was working on fishing in IC and had to kill some NPC's that were spawning near some of the fishing locations - this pushed me up over 100 telvar.

The zone was totally dead at this time, I never even saw another player, so my only option to leave the zone at that point under the new system would have been to walk all the way back to base, or to walk around in circles looking for a wandering boss or actual player who would kill me for a blood port (my character is a bit strong to be killed easily by the regular NPC's), or to use a fairly expensive sigil of retreat, which I'd rather save for times when I actually have telvar to protect (and which many inexperienced players might not even have on them). It's not really compelling gameplay to have to find a workaround like sacrificing yourself to monsters just to leave a zone.

In some cases like this, it's not even about the telvar or wanting to avoid pvp - I just finished what I'm doing and I want out!

Vulkunne · January 16

There is no need to take any action until someone leaves the starter zone. If I'm just there with 100k tel vars to purchase things from IC Vendors, then there is no reason whatsoever to take any action. I could have a million tel vars but I'm not there for anything other than to do business. No reason to make me jump thru hoops.

Secondly, there is also the matter of Trophy vaults. I think people should be allowed to port out of them. Again, some are there to do business. Otherwise, my recommendation is to start a 5-minute timer from the moment someone leaves the safety of a start area. After that, if they want to port out, they can return to a start area or a Trophy vault.

Which then brings up the next matter, why can't people just port out of a safe area? The little waiting area between districts has always been combat free... so are they forced to stay there when no fighting is allowed to begin with?

It might actually be a whole lot simpler to just let people port out as long as they are not in combat. I quite honestly feel that is the best method for fixing this.

spartaxoxo · January 16

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Hey @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom - since we're getting more back and forth with you guys and the devs during this PTS, I just wondered if zos might have anything to say on this issue?

I'm just curious to hear the thinking behind this change and whether there might be consideration of an alternative that would reduce the friction for players in terms of leaving IC, while still preventing abuse in terms of farming telvar and escaping from combat.

I realize it's probably not as pressing as a lot of other issues, but I do worry it will increase player frustration with IC and reduce interest in the zone even *more*. To make this complaint into a specific example, the other day I was working on fishing in IC and had to kill some NPC's that were spawning near some of the fishing locations - this pushed me up over 100 telvar.

The zone was totally dead at this time, I never even saw another player, so my only option to leave the zone at that point under the new system would have been to walk all the way back to base, or to walk around in circles looking for a wandering boss or actual player who would kill me for a blood port (my character is a bit strong to be killed easily by the regular NPC's), or to use a fairly expensive sigil of retreat, which I'd rather save for times when I actually have telvar to protect (and which many inexperienced players might not even have on them). It's not really compelling gameplay to have to find a workaround like sacrificing yourself to monsters just to leave a zone.

In some cases like this, it's not even about the telvar or wanting to avoid pvp - I just finished what I'm doing and I want out!

We did follow up in another thread with an update. Posting the quoted response below.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, wanted to follow up in this thread on some fixes coming in the next few weeks for PTS.

We are currently aware of the issues with the Transmutation cap increased. We have a fix that should be coming in with PTS 2 on Tuesday.

Hey Kevin, thanks for the reply! But, that reply is about the transmutation stone glitch not the Telvar stone teleportation limit.

ZOS_Kevin · January 16

Thank you for catching that, @spartaxoxo. Doing too much at once and mixed up threads.

ZOS_Kevin · January 16

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Hey @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom - since we're getting more back and forth with you guys and the devs during this PTS, I just wondered if zos might have anything to say on this issue?

I'm just curious to hear the thinking behind this change and whether there might be consideration of an alternative that would reduce the friction for players in terms of leaving IC, while still preventing abuse in terms of farming telvar and escaping from combat.

I realize it's probably not as pressing as a lot of other issues, but I do worry it will increase player frustration with IC and reduce interest in the zone even *more*. To make this complaint into a specific example, the other day I was working on fishing in IC and had to kill some NPC's that were spawning near some of the fishing locations - this pushed me up over 100 telvar.

The zone was totally dead at this time, I never even saw another player, so my only option to leave the zone at that point under the new system would have been to walk all the way back to base, or to walk around in circles looking for a wandering boss or actual player who would kill me for a blood port (my character is a bit strong to be killed easily by the regular NPC's), or to use a fairly expensive sigil of retreat, which I'd rather save for times when I actually have telvar to protect (and which many inexperienced players might not even have on them). It's not really compelling gameplay to have to find a workaround like sacrificing yourself to monsters just to leave a zone.

In some cases like this, it's not even about the telvar or wanting to avoid pvp - I just finished what I'm doing and I want out!

We’ll touch base with teams to get some answers.

valenwood_vegan · January 16

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We’ll touch base with teams to get some answers.

Thanks Kevin.

I just thought I'd add one other example of how this could make IC more frustrating from a different point of view... since I posted more from a non-pvp perspective.

But I have known pvp players who like to play in IC while they are waiting for a long queue to get into Cyro, and this change seems like it would effectively eliminate that as a viable option, again potentially reducing interest / activity in IC.

coop500 · January 16

I would be VERY happy for a simple 'no porting during combat' honestly, so defo seconding that here as another option.

spartaxoxo · January 16

coop500 wrote: »

I would be VERY happy for a simple 'no porting during combat' honestly, so defo seconding that here as another option.

Yeah. That would be so much better. It shouldn't be a problem to leave if there's nobody around to fight you anyway. And that would let PvPers continue to use it as a way to wait for Cyrodiil to pop

nightbringer1993 · January 16

I do agree that the change is needed concerning people who are escaping through cyro queuing ways but as long as the warden charm exploit is there I am against the change because people who get stuck in walls because of it will not have a way out.

Major_Mangle · January 16

As long as you don´t go back on the changes I`m ok with you tweaking this change. But you absolutely must prevent the abuse where telvar farmers have this "failsafe"/"get out of jail" free card that undermines the entire system of IC.

@ZOS_Kevin
There is also some talks about how people plan to abuse/use the dungeon finder/battleground queue to circumvent this change (mostly with addons). While not as efficient as the current methods on live, it´s still abusable and should be looked at. If possible, could you share this feedback with the team and see if it´s possible to prevent this kind of "queue-abuse" as well?

React · January 16

Im probably one of the people that campaigned the most for this change, and even I think its a bit too low. I wouldn't see any issue with raising it as high as 1,000.

That said, I do wish they were able to implement a better solution altogether. Something like:

*Queue cannot be started if you or anybody in your group is in combat.
*Entering any district door in IC removes you from combat (you can currently use these doors on live while in combat if you havent dealt/received damage directly in the past 15 seconds or so).

This would make it so people can queue safely from the safe zones regardless of telvar, but completely removes the ability to use the queue to escape when they get attacked.

wolfie1.0. · January 17

Ishtarknows wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

What about when you get knocked outside the map by a sewer boss and get stuck? TPing to Cyrodiil has been the only way I've found to counteract this.

There is a /stuck command.

That works in combat?

Nope

wolfie1.0. · January 17

If queueing out isnt going to be an option for event purposes, and given that this wont go into effect until after trade bars are implemented....

I am probably just gonna skip said event.

16BitForestCat · January 17

coop500 wrote: »

I would be VERY happy for a simple 'no porting during combat' honestly, so defo seconding that here as another option.

Yeah, if the problem is teleporting away during combat, then just...make it so you can't TP out while in combat? I don't see why that WASN'T the immediate solution. (I'd bet "stuck in combat" issues might be involved, in which case...that's still on you, ZOS.) I really wish ZOS didn't have such a well-deserved reputation for putting together 2+2 and coming up with -35. Or for using a sledgehammer where a scalpel is needed. Or for otherwise unnecessarily overcomplicating things.

Issue: Players teleporting to another campaign while being actively in combat.*
Obvious, most sensible solution: Okay, so don't let players teleport out while they're being attacked.
ZOS solution: lol so now u can't tp if u got some tel var spilled on yuh. there is absolutely NO WAY this will work exactly as intended and will probably become the new big bugbear like "stuck in combat" that will plague players till the servers come down for good. enjoy!!!1111

*I personally don't have a problem with this because I'm not in PvEvP zones to PVP and monsters don't care if I teleport out in combat, but I acknowledge some players are bothered by this. I'll be one of the people never coming down from the rally points once this goes through, however. I don't have time IRL to hoof it back to base, nor do I have the abundance of PVP currency to buy bunches of those teleport stones people keep banging on about since I avoid PvEvP content. So, you know, I'll be one more player gone, when the PVP'ers complain about how no one ever wants to play in IC.

(Cyrodiil and IC are not PVP zones; they are PvEvP zones. Looking directly at you, people who keep whinging that players come into "PVP zones like Cyro and IC" and not wanting to PVP.)

imPDA · January 17

The problem is player should not be able to teleport out with Tel Vars at all. It is survival map, more like extraction shooter (ABI, Tarkov, etc), there you either lose everything or win everything, and it is rather unique hardcore gameplay. Cyrodiil queue broke this core thing about IC and ZOs never fixed that, because it was OK to many players, except one thing that was not completely fair and not in the original concept. But I can say, this change has its own supporters, me including.

But if they implement this as full restriction to teleport, it will make random lurkers to suffer a lot, so they came up with another approach - they implemented a limit, small enough so it would still be a big serious restriction, but if you entered IC, killed some mobs and don't know that to do next because you are here for the first time, you will be able to port out. Probably 300-500 Tel Vars will be better, I expect this limit to be changed in the future, probably during PTS, because a lot of people said it would be reasonable to increase this limit a bit.

I would go even further - if you decide to port out with 100+ stones, you should be able to do so, but you will lose everything above 100. So, if you need to evacuate ASAP, you could do it, but in cost of everything you have, it seems somehow fair.

Cons: It will make gameplay a bit slower: now you queue Cyro, then IC, and you are ready to go again (15 seconds), and after patch, you need to run to base first, which can take ~3-5 minutes, and I would say Imperial Retreat stones are rather costly, so not all players will buy them.

I remember myself running to base every time I need to bank Tel Vars, because Cyro queues were longer and it was faster way, and at the very beginning of my PvP, I couldn't even imagine I can use queue, so I always banked Tel Vars via sewers

Contraptions · January 17

My hot take is that IC gameplay loop right now is already fundamentally unappealing for most players and needs a large rework in future to save it. This teleport change is not going to help the population much and is going to make things worse.

IC was added in 2015 and has had 10 years to find a healthy population and has failed. It is consistently dead outside of events, and even with double TV and tickets people complain about being "forced" to go to IC. It's not that ESO players hate PVP. Cyro and BGs usually have much more robust players levels at all hours compared to this and most people have at least dipped their toes into PVP for skill lines and stuff.

The problem is that IC as some mentioned is an hardcore extraction shooter style loop gameplay which isn't a terrible idea. Arc raiders, tarkov etc. are all popular games. The problem is that the "extract" half of the game takes way too long. Once you're done with quests or farming or whatever, you have to run to sewer entrance, run through the whole sewers, avoid a whole bunch of mobs and stuff back to base just to exit. Can you imagine if trial or dungeon disabled "leave instance" once you enter and made you run all the way back to entrance door to leave? People would freaking hate that. And this is not even counting the risk of you getting ganked or dying along the way and losing half of your rewards anyway!

This is why death ports and queue for cyro, or logging out, or queue for rnd, or the previous intro quest exploit exists. Because most people just want to get out ASAP instead of being forced to do the same boring run back EVERY SINGLE TIME. The fact that these methods allow you to keep most of your rewards is the icing on the cake.

If it were up to me, IC districts and sewers should be completely separate things and you can head back to base immediately from the districts. Add more variety of extraction. Arc raiders has lifts, air vents, hatches, trains etc. Why can't we have something like that in IC?

Killing district boss drops special key that unlocks a randomly spawning trapdoor/hatch back to base useable by anyone. When hatch is unlocked lights and sounds and icon appears on map, creating potential conflict.
Capturing and flipping the flag creates a mage portal usable by your alliance to return to base. Highly desirable! High chance of attracting fights!
Kill a bunch of daedra and capture a daedric rift that leads back to base, spawns anywhere but requires a short channel animation to use, leaving you vulnerable for a while.
Sewer entrances have multiple random spawn points and can be used by anyone anytime, but have a short cooldown after someone uses it.
etc. etc.

imPDA · January 17

Contraptions wrote: »

Killing district boss drops special key that unlocks a randomly spawning trapdoor/hatch back to base useable by anyone. When hatch is unlocked lights and sounds and icon appears on map, creating potential conflict.

Capturing and flipping the flag creates a mage portal usable by your alliance to return to base. Highly desirable! High chance of attracting fights!

Kill a bunch of daedra and capture a daedric rift that leads back to base, spawns anywhere but requires a short channel animation to use, leaving you vulnerable for a while.

Sewer entrances have multiple random spawn points and can be used by anyone anytime but have a short cooldown after someone uses it.

etc. etc.

I personally think it will create additional friction, now you need to spend even more time to tp out, at least for me, because I am rarely killing mobs or bosses, mostly here for PvP between BGs or in Cyro queue. Simple redesign of sewers to make exits be closer to bases can help, and probably add additional exits, because now you have to run to specific district to evacuate near your alliance base.

But it is not important, more important thing is how to attract more people. PvP (including IC) rewards are trash. Some buyable styles were added, one mount, etc, but it is not something I would spend my farmed Tel Vars and AP, and there is nothing I would really buy. IC is end-game high reward gameplay - but still no high reward available? Allow people to buy mounts (existing or IC exclusive, with Molag Bal style probably?), styles, animations, etc. It will attract a LOT of attention.

Endeavors helped a bit tho, because there are PvP tasks and I know a couple of newbies who come to IC for these quests. But it is not enough, they done an endeavor and never come back. Retention is too low. There should be something permanent.

P.S. Btw, please let me know if something decent available in PvP, I have not checked rewards available for a long time. Mounts, styles, animations, titles, costumes, idk, something what every people would see and say "Oh, it is kinda cool, I want it".

AzuraFan · January 17

imPDA wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

It sounds like after I've earned 100+ telvar from killing skeevers, I'll have no convenient way out. I'll have to go all the way back to my alliance base when I want to do something else.

It always was here and meant to be used for convenient way out. Cyrodiil queue just broke this mechanic, it should be addressed long ago, and I am glad it is finally fixed. Amount of Tel Var can be adjusted in the future, 100 is too small imo.

I've been playing this game for a lot of years and had no idea that item existed. Just looked it up. 10k telvar? As a PvE player who just goes into the sewers every once in a while for a change of pace, that won't work for me. Especially since any telvar I do manage to accumulate goes towards buying leads, which are very expensive (25k telvar a pop). I'll just log out when I want to leave.

coop500 wrote: »

I would be VERY happy for a simple 'no porting during combat' honestly, so defo seconding that here as another option.

That would make the most sense. Especially since the problem it's trying to address is people porting out during combat. The solution they've gone with penalizes players who aren't even in IC to PvP.

reazea · January 17

So just buy some sigils of imperial retreat. Does the same thing and they're not expensive. Just a bit of AP.