Cyrodiil Healing Nerf!!

Teeba_Shei · January 16

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

[*] Movement speed being double what it used to doesnt help

Movement is not double what it used to be. They added a movement speed cap and nerfed a lot of movement speed abilities and potions. It used to be super easy, as a solo player, to have 100% uptime on Major Expedition, and it gave 40% movement speed. They actually toned movement down after that because players were moving so fast that they couldn’t hit each other.

It used to be so fast that I could actually outrun players who were sprinting on mounts.

Well it all changed in summerset when they released 10% swift jewelry. Prior to that the average player was at 100% movement speed with maybe 30% major. Then people had 60% suddenly and instead of zos adjusting the speeds buffs down they just adjusted the uptimes of major and snare immunities. So after that the game started feeling like this drag racing "redlight greenlight" type game.

Most solo and BG setups land at 150-200% movement speed without sprint. Yet back then you'd be at 130% on nonstamsorc builds. So I say doubling buffs because +30% to +75%ish. Way more sources in everyday builds were added, but they should have reduced values more to keep the same average speeds.

Even further back yeah there were the uncapped scroll run build days, but on a normal functional combat build you wouldnt have speed 5 pieces on.

I can't spend my entire day on here fact checking you. Major expedition from potions was 40% not 30%.

Well this was in clockwork before summerset at 30%

Reduced the bonus movement speed from the Major Expedition buff category to 30% from 40%.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Patch/1.3.0.0

Ahh so it was 40% much earlier. Right and since then they have added handfuls of extra speed in just about every possible build choice. Except without reducing the values to keep the same average speed.

They nerfed swift and a bunch of other things as well. They made a lot of the sources of speed fall into the major and minor categories, so they no longer stack. You used to be able to reach crazy speeds.

MincMincMinc · January 16

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

[*] Movement speed being double what it used to doesnt help

Movement is not double what it used to be. They added a movement speed cap and nerfed a lot of movement speed abilities and potions. It used to be super easy, as a solo player, to have 100% uptime on Major Expedition, and it gave 40% movement speed. They actually toned movement down after that because players were moving so fast that they couldn’t hit each other.

It used to be so fast that I could actually outrun players who were sprinting on mounts.

Well it all changed in summerset when they released 10% swift jewelry. Prior to that the average player was at 100% movement speed with maybe 30% major. Then people had 60% suddenly and instead of zos adjusting the speeds buffs down they just adjusted the uptimes of major and snare immunities. So after that the game started feeling like this drag racing "redlight greenlight" type game.

Most solo and BG setups land at 150-200% movement speed without sprint. Yet back then you'd be at 130% on nonstamsorc builds. So I say doubling buffs because +30% to +75%ish. Way more sources in everyday builds were added, but they should have reduced values more to keep the same average speeds.

Even further back yeah there were the uncapped scroll run build days, but on a normal functional combat build you wouldnt have speed 5 pieces on.

I can't spend my entire day on here fact checking you. Major expedition from potions was 40% not 30%.

Well this was in clockwork before summerset at 30%

Reduced the bonus movement speed from the Major Expedition buff category to 30% from 40%.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Patch/1.3.0.0

Ahh so it was 40% much earlier. Right and since then they have added handfuls of extra speed in just about every possible build choice. Except without reducing the values to keep the same average speed.

They nerfed swift and a bunch of other things as well. They made a lot of the sources of speed fall into the major and minor categories, so they no longer stack. You used to be able to reach crazy speeds.

Yeah idk i just remember gapclosers having way more of a place. Honestly it probably has more to do with the start/stop effect where we have people being rooted and snared.....then popping RATS or predator and suddenly being at max movement speed.

Partly wish they had came up with a counter snare in a core skill like how we have dodge roll for roots and bash for cc break. Like if sprinting cut snares by 50% or something instead of these short duration stop and go immunity spams.

gariondavey · January 16

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Just remove Combat Medic and be done with it. I'm incredibly surprised they never tried to change this passive. If healing away from a keep is balanced, then when you move to keep battles, healing is suddenly overtuned.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno Heal cut argument result.

After 20 pages of brutal probably TOS boundary arguments I think some of us actually came to an agreement. Remove the combat medic passive. There is no reason to boost heals in keeps, where we know fights might stagnate on the server and linger on and on causing lag.

If anything we can take out one small part of an equation that adds to the lag. We obviously can't find the silver bullet and likely you need to start taking smaller wins. This wont completely fix the STACKING issue of hots, but atleast cuts into the overhealing in keep fights. Honestly the only way to deal with stacking is change gamerules for all hots/dots or change how individual skills function.

Remove that AND
-HOTS don't stack (1 per named spell)
-Shields are limited to 60 percent max hp (another value can be proposed/discussed)
-PvE support sets don't work in PvP
-Snow treaders have a 30 percent movement speed penalty.

Then, we will have some better balance.

Wuuffyy · January 16

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Artisian0001 · January 16

Wuuffyy wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Nobody in big groups purges DoTs. If your group is 5+ people you are just effectively killing yourself to plague, so this argument doesn't really matter.

MincMincMinc · January 16

gariondavey wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Just remove Combat Medic and be done with it. I'm incredibly surprised they never tried to change this passive. If healing away from a keep is balanced, then when you move to keep battles, healing is suddenly overtuned.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno Heal cut argument result.

After 20 pages of brutal probably TOS boundary arguments I think some of us actually came to an agreement. Remove the combat medic passive. There is no reason to boost heals in keeps, where we know fights might stagnate on the server and linger on and on causing lag.

If anything we can take out one small part of an equation that adds to the lag. We obviously can't find the silver bullet and likely you need to start taking smaller wins. This wont completely fix the STACKING issue of hots, but atleast cuts into the overhealing in keep fights. Honestly the only way to deal with stacking is change gamerules for all hots/dots or change how individual skills function.

Remove that AND
-HOTS don't stack (1 per named spell)
-Shields are limited to 60 percent max hp (another value can be proposed/discussed)
-PvE support sets don't work in PvP
-Snow treaders have a 30 percent movement speed penalty.

Then, we will have some better balance.

They would have to be happy with pve only allowing hots to not stack. Because otherwise theyd need to double their workload by making pvp copy and pasted versions of all the skills.

Shields sure, but lets be honest most people in pvp are nearing 40khp and that only limits them to 20k shields at 50% cap. So practically useless until zos pushes people away from maxhp.

Snow treaders should only give immunity while sprinting and should remove the sprint speed buffs. Thus we wont see people perfectly immune all the time while going full movement speed and cast spamming heals. Now you need to actually think about what you are doing and cant flat out ignore 2/3 the cc mechanics in the game. (we already knew guaranteed snare/root and speed was a bad idea when zos removed it from rapid maneuver spam. Did zos forget those complaints?)

Wuuffyy · January 16

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Nobody in big groups purges DoTs. If your group is 5+ people you are just effectively killing yourself to plague, so this argument doesn't really matter.

First sentence already ridiculously incorrect.

Purify is everywhere- need screenshots for proof?

Artisian0001 · January 16

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Nobody in big groups purges DoTs. If your group is 5+ people you are just effectively killing yourself to plague, so this argument doesn't really matter.

First sentence already ridiculously incorrect.

Purify is everywhere- need screenshots for proof?

Purify isn't the same thing as running purge, purge removes it from everyone at the same time, multiplying the damage on the set. If you are talking about just a single person using purify and then people using the purify synergy then sure, but even the people who use this aren't the big groups that run a bunch of HoTs, they are the smaller groups who fight a few people and don't have plaguebreak on 4+ members at all times. We should be talking about the groups that can't run it to begin with, as they are the ones with the amount of HoTs people are concerned about.

Wuuffyy · January 16

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Nobody in big groups purges DoTs. If your group is 5+ people you are just effectively killing yourself to plague, so this argument doesn't really matter.

First sentence already ridiculously incorrect.

Purify is everywhere- need screenshots for proof?

Second, plague breaker has been incomprehensibly nerfed to the point where the damage it provides (especially without followup) is laughable especially in the context of ballgroups with each member having a typical 35k+ health pool and an endless supply of main heals and off heals.

Outside of siege damage, anything not resolved via the above solution is easily cured via one or 2 defensive ultimates (think trees, earth gore monster set, and barrier being a handful of examples)

Artisian0001 · January 16

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Nobody in big groups purges DoTs. If your group is 5+ people you are just effectively killing yourself to plague, so this argument doesn't really matter.

First sentence already ridiculously incorrect.

Purify is everywhere- need screenshots for proof?

Second, plague breaker has been incomprehensibly nerfed to the point where the damage it provides (especially without followup) is laughable especially in the context of ballgroups with each member having a typical 35k+ health pool and an endless supply of main heals and off heals.

Outside of siege damage, anything not resolved via the above solution is easily cured via one or 2 defensive ultimates (think trees, earth gore monster set, and barrier being a handful of examples)

You are just wrong. Tell me you don't understand the game more. Please show me the patch where plaguebreaks damage was heavily nerfed.

Wuuffyy · January 16

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Nobody in big groups purges DoTs. If your group is 5+ people you are just effectively killing yourself to plague, so this argument doesn't really matter.

First sentence already ridiculously incorrect.

Purify is everywhere- need screenshots for proof?

Purify isn't the same thing as running purge, purge removes it from everyone at the same time, multiplying the damage on the set. If you are talking about just a single person using purify and then people using the purify synergy then sure, but even the people who use this aren't the big groups that run a bunch of HoTs, they are the smaller groups who fight a few people and don't have plaguebreak on 4+ members at all times. We should be talking about the groups that can't run it to begin with, as they are the ones with the amount of HoTs people are concerned about.

You are correct. Purify is far greater than purge removing any and all negative effects with no resource attrition applied to the taker.

Trust me, I know- it’s my absolute favorite synergy to look for when I pass near groups and want some oomph.

Wuuffyy · January 16

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Nobody in big groups purges DoTs. If your group is 5+ people you are just effectively killing yourself to plague, so this argument doesn't really matter.

First sentence already ridiculously incorrect.

Purify is everywhere- need screenshots for proof?

Second, plague breaker has been incomprehensibly nerfed to the point where the damage it provides (especially without followup) is laughable especially in the context of ballgroups with each member having a typical 35k+ health pool and an endless supply of main heals and off heals.

Outside of siege damage, anything not resolved via the above solution is easily cured via one or 2 defensive ultimates (think trees, earth gore monster set, and barrier being a handful of examples)

You are just wrong. Tell me you don't understand the game more. Please show me the patch where plaguebreaks damage was heavily nerfed.

Player of 10+ years and I was actually thinking you were relatively new. Regardless, players have acknowledged that the root cause of this change (ball groups) are a problem and now the developers have finally taken the initiative to attempt to effectively resolve the core of that problem (unmitigated survivability) regardless of what you or I are typing here.

In other words, whether or not you like it- the problem will be solved (one way or another) in the current course.

Artisian0001 · January 16

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Nobody in big groups purges DoTs. If your group is 5+ people you are just effectively killing yourself to plague, so this argument doesn't really matter.

First sentence already ridiculously incorrect.

Purify is everywhere- need screenshots for proof?

Second, plague breaker has been incomprehensibly nerfed to the point where the damage it provides (especially without followup) is laughable especially in the context of ballgroups with each member having a typical 35k+ health pool and an endless supply of main heals and off heals.

Outside of siege damage, anything not resolved via the above solution is easily cured via one or 2 defensive ultimates (think trees, earth gore monster set, and barrier being a handful of examples)

You are just wrong. Tell me you don't understand the game more. Please show me the patch where plaguebreaks damage was heavily nerfed.

Player of 10+ years and I was actually thinking you were relatively new. Regardless, players have acknowledged that the root cause of this change (ball groups) are a problem and now the developers have finally taken the initiative to attempt to effectively resolve the core of that problem (unmitigated survivability) regardless of what you or I are typing here.

In other words, whether or not you like it- the problem will be solved (one way or another) in the current course.

You do realize you said the damage was nerfed, even "incomprehensibly" so and didn't substantiate it all all right? This is what every single person on the forums does. The damage on the explosion was never nerfed against groups, it was only increased. You didn't even try to say otherwise, did you just lie and then backtrack when it was obviously wrong? I have been on the game since beta, regardless, I could have started yesterday and it doesn't change anything. Lying to try to score points on the forums seems to be common from the side that doesn't want an actual coherent change against the real problem.

Teeba_Shei · January 16

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Nobody in big groups purges DoTs. If your group is 5+ people you are just effectively killing yourself to plague, so this argument doesn't really matter.

First sentence already ridiculously incorrect.

Purify is everywhere- need screenshots for proof?

Second, plague breaker has been incomprehensibly nerfed to the point where the damage it provides (especially without followup) is laughable especially in the context of ballgroups with each member having a typical 35k+ health pool and an endless supply of main heals and off heals.

Outside of siege damage, anything not resolved via the above solution is easily cured via one or 2 defensive ultimates (think trees, earth gore monster set, and barrier being a handful of examples)

You are just wrong. Tell me you don't understand the game more. Please show me the patch where plaguebreaks damage was heavily nerfed.

Player of 10+ years and I was actually thinking you were relatively new. Regardless, players have acknowledged that the root cause of this change (ball groups) are a problem and now the developers have finally taken the initiative to attempt to effectively resolve the core of that problem (unmitigated survivability) regardless of what you or I are typing here.

In other words, whether or not you like it- the problem will be solved (one way or another) in the current course.

You do realize you said the damage was nerfed, even "incomprehensibly" so and didn't substantiate it all all right? This is what every single person on the forums does. The damage on the explosion was never nerfed against groups, it was only increased. You didn't even try to say otherwise, did you just lie and then backtrack when it was obviously wrong? I have been on the game since beta, regardless, I could have started yesterday and it doesn't change anything. Lying to try to score points on the forums seems to be common from the side that doesn't want an actual coherent change against the real problem.

The only nerf to plaguebreak was that it no longer works in PvE. That nerf doesn't apply to this conversation. The person saying it was nerfed doesn't know what they are talking about.

Artisian0001 · January 16

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Nobody in big groups purges DoTs. If your group is 5+ people you are just effectively killing yourself to plague, so this argument doesn't really matter.

First sentence already ridiculously incorrect.

Purify is everywhere- need screenshots for proof?

Second, plague breaker has been incomprehensibly nerfed to the point where the damage it provides (especially without followup) is laughable especially in the context of ballgroups with each member having a typical 35k+ health pool and an endless supply of main heals and off heals.

Outside of siege damage, anything not resolved via the above solution is easily cured via one or 2 defensive ultimates (think trees, earth gore monster set, and barrier being a handful of examples)

You are just wrong. Tell me you don't understand the game more. Please show me the patch where plaguebreaks damage was heavily nerfed.

Player of 10+ years and I was actually thinking you were relatively new. Regardless, players have acknowledged that the root cause of this change (ball groups) are a problem and now the developers have finally taken the initiative to attempt to effectively resolve the core of that problem (unmitigated survivability) regardless of what you or I are typing here.

In other words, whether or not you like it- the problem will be solved (one way or another) in the current course.

You do realize you said the damage was nerfed, even "incomprehensibly" so and didn't substantiate it all all right? This is what every single person on the forums does. The damage on the explosion was never nerfed against groups, it was only increased. You didn't even try to say otherwise, did you just lie and then backtrack when it was obviously wrong? I have been on the game since beta, regardless, I could have started yesterday and it doesn't change anything. Lying to try to score points on the forums seems to be common from the side that doesn't want an actual coherent change against the real problem.

The only nerf to plaguebreak was that it no longer works in PvE. That nerf doesn't apply to this conversation. The person saying it was nerfed doesn't know what they are talking about.

Yes, plague was changed to not work on NPCs, which didn't change the damage of the set, and then in another patch the DoT damage was increased, and then the BASE explosion damage was decreased but the explosion scaling was increased so it actually dealt even more damage when it hits 4 or more people. and it always hits more than that against big groups, which is what we are talking about. Just no real conversation to be had with these people.

MeridiaFavorsMe · January 16

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Nobody in big groups purges DoTs. If your group is 5+ people you are just effectively killing yourself to plague, so this argument doesn't really matter.

First sentence already ridiculously incorrect.

Purify is everywhere- need screenshots for proof?

Second, plague breaker has been incomprehensibly nerfed to the point where the damage it provides (especially without followup) is laughable especially in the context of ballgroups with each member having a typical 35k+ health pool and an endless supply of main heals and off heals.

Outside of siege damage, anything not resolved via the above solution is easily cured via one or 2 defensive ultimates (think trees, earth gore monster set, and barrier being a handful of examples)

You are just wrong. Tell me you don't understand the game more. Please show me the patch where plaguebreaks damage was heavily nerfed.

Player of 10+ years and I was actually thinking you were relatively new. Regardless, players have acknowledged that the root cause of this change (ball groups) are a problem and now the developers have finally taken the initiative to attempt to effectively resolve the core of that problem (unmitigated survivability) regardless of what you or I are typing here.

In other words, whether or not you like it- the problem will be solved (one way or another) in the current course.

It isn’t the healing that’s making them hard to kill—which is what ZOS is trying to target—it’s the massive shielding these groups can put out. If someone has 40k shields on top of 40k health, then they effectively have 80k HP. ZOS needs to reduce the shielding output of these groups and decrease the maximum size these shields can reach.

CameraBeardThePirate · January 16

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Nobody in big groups purges DoTs. If your group is 5+ people you are just effectively killing yourself to plague, so this argument doesn't really matter.

First sentence already ridiculously incorrect.

Purify is everywhere- need screenshots for proof?

Second, plague breaker has been incomprehensibly nerfed to the point where the damage it provides (especially without followup) is laughable especially in the context of ballgroups with each member having a typical 35k+ health pool and an endless supply of main heals and off heals.

Outside of siege damage, anything not resolved via the above solution is easily cured via one or 2 defensive ultimates (think trees, earth gore monster set, and barrier being a handful of examples)

You are just wrong. Tell me you don't understand the game more. Please show me the patch where plaguebreaks damage was heavily nerfed.

Player of 10+ years and I was actually thinking you were relatively new. Regardless, players have acknowledged that the root cause of this change (ball groups) are a problem and now the developers have finally taken the initiative to attempt to effectively resolve the core of that problem (unmitigated survivability) regardless of what you or I are typing here.

In other words, whether or not you like it- the problem will be solved (one way or another) in the current course.

You do realize you said the damage was nerfed, even "incomprehensibly" so and didn't substantiate it all all right? This is what every single person on the forums does. The damage on the explosion was never nerfed against groups, it was only increased. You didn't even try to say otherwise, did you just lie and then backtrack when it was obviously wrong? I have been on the game since beta, regardless, I could have started yesterday and it doesn't change anything. Lying to try to score points on the forums seems to be common from the side that doesn't want an actual coherent change against the real problem.

The only nerf to plaguebreak was that it no longer works in PvE. That nerf doesn't apply to this conversation. The person saying it was nerfed doesn't know what they are talking about.

Yes, plague was changed to not work on NPCs, which didn't change the damage of the set, and then in another patch the DoT damage was increased, and then the BASE explosion damage was decreased but the explosion scaling was increased so it actually dealt even more damage when it hits 4 or more people. and it always hits more than that against big groups, which is what we are talking about. Just no real conversation to be had with these people.

You're missing the cooldown and application nerfs? You used to be able to apply it much more frequently, but now it is applied on 1 target per ability, even if the ability is AoE, ON TOP OF having a long per target cooldown.. That cooldown increase did heavily nerf the damage output of the set, as you'll have fewer instances applied at any given time.

Artisian0001 · January 16

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Nobody in big groups purges DoTs. If your group is 5+ people you are just effectively killing yourself to plague, so this argument doesn't really matter.

First sentence already ridiculously incorrect.

Purify is everywhere- need screenshots for proof?

Second, plague breaker has been incomprehensibly nerfed to the point where the damage it provides (especially without followup) is laughable especially in the context of ballgroups with each member having a typical 35k+ health pool and an endless supply of main heals and off heals.

Outside of siege damage, anything not resolved via the above solution is easily cured via one or 2 defensive ultimates (think trees, earth gore monster set, and barrier being a handful of examples)

You are just wrong. Tell me you don't understand the game more. Please show me the patch where plaguebreaks damage was heavily nerfed.

Player of 10+ years and I was actually thinking you were relatively new. Regardless, players have acknowledged that the root cause of this change (ball groups) are a problem and now the developers have finally taken the initiative to attempt to effectively resolve the core of that problem (unmitigated survivability) regardless of what you or I are typing here.

In other words, whether or not you like it- the problem will be solved (one way or another) in the current course.

You do realize you said the damage was nerfed, even "incomprehensibly" so and didn't substantiate it all all right? This is what every single person on the forums does. The damage on the explosion was never nerfed against groups, it was only increased. You didn't even try to say otherwise, did you just lie and then backtrack when it was obviously wrong? I have been on the game since beta, regardless, I could have started yesterday and it doesn't change anything. Lying to try to score points on the forums seems to be common from the side that doesn't want an actual coherent change against the real problem.

The only nerf to plaguebreak was that it no longer works in PvE. That nerf doesn't apply to this conversation. The person saying it was nerfed doesn't know what they are talking about.

Yes, plague was changed to not work on NPCs, which didn't change the damage of the set, and then in another patch the DoT damage was increased, and then the BASE explosion damage was decreased but the explosion scaling was increased so it actually dealt even more damage when it hits 4 or more people. and it always hits more than that against big groups, which is what we are talking about. Just no real conversation to be had with these people.

You're missing the cooldown and application nerfs? You used to be able to apply it much more frequently, but now it is applied on 1 target per ability, even if the ability is AoE, ON TOP OF having a long per target cooldown.. That cooldown increase did heavily nerf the damage output of the set, as you'll have fewer instances applied at any given time.

Considering the comment was, "the damage it provides is laughable" and the damage was never nerfed, the point is flat out wrong. Also, one of the things you pointed out was a bugfix, but yes it only applies every 20s. This doesn't change how much damage it does (literally more) to bigger groups.

Alchimiste1 · January 16

How did I provide calculations without combat medic and people still think JUST removing combat medic is enough to reign in the power of ball groups lol.

Artisian0001 · January 16

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

How did I provide calculations without combat medic and people still think JUST removing combat medic is enough to reign in the power of ball groups lol.

Because the forum is full of two extreme ends, and it's a common case of, since x person is saying something extreme, if I give on one end and if some solution is found in the middle, it will be too far to one side because only one side is being reasonable.. You have some people saying no nerf is necessary and that you are meant to play with friends, nerfing healers isn't fair, etc. While on the other side you have people saying at some point your own heals should start dealing damage to group players and multiple people have actually agreed with crazy claims like that.

The real solutions that would help are a removal of combat medic. I suggest a heal reduction scaling with group size but that's apparently too much work for the devs, so an additional 10% reduction to all healing, as well as a cap on shields to 20k over your max HP at all times (people can get shields of over 50k) which bring effective health to 90k at some points, and also reduce the HP scaling of shields. This avoids the people trolling from outside of group putting extra HoTs on you to reduce your healing, coding it isn't exceptionally hard, and this also combats the issue of shielding that could be avoided by only targeting healing.

Frooke · January 16

Increasing the number of HoTs required to 5 seems like the best option to me (of course, this should be a temporary change and tested for a while). Solo players rarely go beyond 3 HoTs; this change would mainly impact those who play in groups, even small ones, which still feels like a fair mechanic to me.
It would likely make any type of player, at any group size, killable, and that sounds fun. It would force players to focus on movement and survival mechanics instead of relying solely on a stack of numbers. Go on. Let’s test this for a while

Artisian0001 · January 16

Frooke wrote: »

Increasing the number of HoTs required to 5 seems like the best option to me (of course, this should be a temporary change and tested for a while). Solo players rarely go beyond 3 HoTs; this change would mainly impact those who play in groups, even small ones, which still feels like a fair mechanic to me.
It would likely make any type of player, at any group size, killable, and that sounds fun. It would force players to focus on movement and survival mechanics instead of relying solely on a stack of numbers. Go on. Let’s test this for a while

What do you do about people healing from outside of group then? You have to remove it for this to work and a lot of people are very against this.

CameraBeardThePirate · January 16

Artisian0001 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

What is the actual problem you guys are attempting to address with this change?

Is it ballgroups? This won't stop them. Because it won't stop their ability to kill. It might make them more lethal because they are going to be killing groups that have no idea why they can't heal through the damage.

Is this meant to stop people from piling several rows of HoTs and DoTs which potentially impact performance? The answer to that will be to address how HoTs and DoTs work in the entire game because those issues are present in Trials, World content and PvP. You can't address that with Battle Spirit.

This needs to go back to formula.

You guys need to try and shift more damage and healing to direct damage from over time effects.

Or have buffs that combine HoTs and DoTs into one effect such as Major/Minor Corrosion and Major/Minor Renewal.

I am a little alarmed that a change like this even made it to the PTS in response to feedback regarding ball groups.

The thing is, that healing over time outpaces damage over time by far already..

If you feel that is the case then your feedback and logical response to that feedback should be to address the individual numbers of those HoTs or DoTs that are out of line rather than introducing a game breaking debuff that breaks healing altogether and allows an entire one side of the game to be much weaker to build into (healing) than others (tanking/damage dealing).

What is being suggested here is the opposite of the word balance in it's very definition.

You can purge dots, especially in a group setting— I cannot purge your hots.

Also, find me one DoT outside of an ult that dpses more than resolving vigor hpses- I’ll wait

Nobody in big groups purges DoTs. If your group is 5+ people you are just effectively killing yourself to plague, so this argument doesn't really matter.

First sentence already ridiculously incorrect.

Purify is everywhere- need screenshots for proof?

Second, plague breaker has been incomprehensibly nerfed to the point where the damage it provides (especially without followup) is laughable especially in the context of ballgroups with each member having a typical 35k+ health pool and an endless supply of main heals and off heals.

Outside of siege damage, anything not resolved via the above solution is easily cured via one or 2 defensive ultimates (think trees, earth gore monster set, and barrier being a handful of examples)

You are just wrong. Tell me you don't understand the game more. Please show me the patch where plaguebreaks damage was heavily nerfed.

Player of 10+ years and I was actually thinking you were relatively new. Regardless, players have acknowledged that the root cause of this change (ball groups) are a problem and now the developers have finally taken the initiative to attempt to effectively resolve the core of that problem (unmitigated survivability) regardless of what you or I are typing here.

In other words, whether or not you like it- the problem will be solved (one way or another) in the current course.

You do realize you said the damage was nerfed, even "incomprehensibly" so and didn't substantiate it all all right? This is what every single person on the forums does. The damage on the explosion was never nerfed against groups, it was only increased. You didn't even try to say otherwise, did you just lie and then backtrack when it was obviously wrong? I have been on the game since beta, regardless, I could have started yesterday and it doesn't change anything. Lying to try to score points on the forums seems to be common from the side that doesn't want an actual coherent change against the real problem.

The only nerf to plaguebreak was that it no longer works in PvE. That nerf doesn't apply to this conversation. The person saying it was nerfed doesn't know what they are talking about.

Yes, plague was changed to not work on NPCs, which didn't change the damage of the set, and then in another patch the DoT damage was increased, and then the BASE explosion damage was decreased but the explosion scaling was increased so it actually dealt even more damage when it hits 4 or more people. and it always hits more than that against big groups, which is what we are talking about. Just no real conversation to be had with these people.

You're missing the cooldown and application nerfs? You used to be able to apply it much more frequently, but now it is applied on 1 target per ability, even if the ability is AoE, ON TOP OF having a long per target cooldown.. That cooldown increase did heavily nerf the damage output of the set, as you'll have fewer instances applied at any given time.

Considering the comment was, "the damage it provides is laughable" and the damage was never nerfed, the point is flat out wrong. Also, one of the things you pointed out was a bugfix, but yes it only applies every 20s. This doesn't change how much damage it does (literally more) to bigger groups.

Yes, it does deal more damage per proc to larger groups, but it is still important to point out the cooldown, as groups can intentionally take a proc when safe/spread to prevent them from needing to worry about the proc for a decent period of time.

It's a matter of windows - old Plaguebreak provided a constant threat, and now has windows of relative safety.

Either way it's a moot point because ball groups simply aren't using purge much at all anymore since there's very little need to and a missed Plague proc can still chunk health.

Lord_Hev · January 16

Any nerf to shielding should only apply to group shields and not individually exclusive shields.

Artisian0001 · January 16

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Any nerf to shielding should only apply to group shields and not individually exclusive shields.

If you are talking about not nerfing sorc shield and shields that target just one person, I can say I agree. The real issue is scribing shields combined with barrier, dk ult, gibber, etc. Scribing is probably the biggest issue as they aren't even behind an ultimate and the person just builds HP to increase to value. Very poorly balanced skill.

MincMincMinc · January 16

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Frooke wrote: »

Increasing the number of HoTs required to 5 seems like the best option to me (of course, this should be a temporary change and tested for a while). Solo players rarely go beyond 3 HoTs; this change would mainly impact those who play in groups, even small ones, which still feels like a fair mechanic to me.
It would likely make any type of player, at any group size, killable, and that sounds fun. It would force players to focus on movement and survival mechanics instead of relying solely on a stack of numbers. Go on. Let’s test this for a while

What do you do about people healing from outside of group then? You have to remove it for this to work and a lot of people are very against this.

We always see these arguments of NO CROSSHEALING or WE WANT CROSSHEALING......ok why not just ask zos to do both. Make one heal morph go to groups and the other to allies only.

Plenty of doors to open with new skills in the future.

Artisian0001 · January 16

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Frooke wrote: »

Increasing the number of HoTs required to 5 seems like the best option to me (of course, this should be a temporary change and tested for a while). Solo players rarely go beyond 3 HoTs; this change would mainly impact those who play in groups, even small ones, which still feels like a fair mechanic to me.
It would likely make any type of player, at any group size, killable, and that sounds fun. It would force players to focus on movement and survival mechanics instead of relying solely on a stack of numbers. Go on. Let’s test this for a while

What do you do about people healing from outside of group then? You have to remove it for this to work and a lot of people are very against this.

We always see these arguments of NO CROSSHEALING or WE WANT CROSSHEALING......ok why not just ask zos to do both. Make one heal morph go to groups and the other to allies only.

Plenty of doors to open with new skills in the future.

They are already trying to minimize what they do, Ginas second comment said they didn't want anything in depth at all, which IMO ruins the idea of true balance, but I think what I proposed is fine to deal with the issue of shield stacking (which is worse than HoTs and other healing) as well as keep groups from avoiding the nerf altogether. You would have to change a lot of skills, look at the list @YandereGirlfriend posted a while back. You would have to make every single HoT that can hit friendlies apply to only group members, or you make it so that healing only hits people in your own group to begin with. If they are pressed for dev resources they would just go with disabling it outside of group. I don't think they will do that but it's much easier.

Lord_Hev · January 16

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Any nerf to shielding should only apply to group shields and not individually exclusive shields.

If you are talking about not nerfing sorc shield and shields that target just one person, I can say I agree. The real issue is scribing shields combined with barrier, dk ult, gibber, etc. Scribing is probably the biggest issue as they aren't even behind an ultimate and the person just builds HP to increase to value. Very poorly balanced skill.

Yes precisely. And it falls into the same category as the initial heal reduction battle-spirit that removes player agency from themselves. The group shielding didn't become such an issue until scribing enabled it. The majority of group shield sets have such low shield values as a norm.

Artisian0001 · January 16

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Any nerf to shielding should only apply to group shields and not individually exclusive shields.

If you are talking about not nerfing sorc shield and shields that target just one person, I can say I agree. The real issue is scribing shields combined with barrier, dk ult, gibber, etc. Scribing is probably the biggest issue as they aren't even behind an ultimate and the person just builds HP to increase to value. Very poorly balanced skill.

Yes precisely. And it falls into the same category as the initial heal reduction battle-spirit that removes player agency from themselves. The group shielding didn't become such an issue until scribing enabled it. The majority of group shield sets have such low shield values as a norm.

They also have cooldowns. I don't think they are even used because the CD with low value isn't worth a 5 piece. Every log I have seen from coordinated 12 mans is arc shielding as well as scribing shields, they are egregiously strong.

Teeba_Shei · January 16

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Any nerf to shielding should only apply to group shields and not individually exclusive shields.

If you are talking about not nerfing sorc shield and shields that target just one person, I can say I agree. The real issue is scribing shields combined with barrier, dk ult, gibber, etc. Scribing is probably the biggest issue as they aren't even behind an ultimate and the person just builds HP to increase to value. Very poorly balanced skill.

Yes precisely. And it falls into the same category as the initial heal reduction battle-spirit that removes player agency from themselves. The group shielding didn't become such an issue until scribing enabled it. The majority of group shield sets have such low shield values as a norm.

They also have cooldowns. I don't think they are even used because the CD with low value isn't worth a 5 piece. Every log I have seen from coordinated 12 mans is arc shielding as well as scribing shields, they are egregiously strong.

Barrier is also quite strong when used in combination with the other skills. They are buffing Magma Armor in the next patch to give the ball group kit an additional tool. Magma Armor on PTS is extremely overpowered. With the right build, you can easily give everyone in your group 35k–40k HP after Battle Spirit. That’s basically like healing everyone to full instantly within 28 meters of you. These types of shielding skills are what make the ball group issue seem extreme—not healing.

That said, Arcanist shielding is still a major contributor to the problem. It’s an extremely cheap skill that provides very high uptime on shields with incredibly large shield amounts.

Contingency is another major problem. If it was nerfed they would just move to using soul burst, which is basically the same thing.