I can't wait to spam hots in big fights to make everyone's healing drop by 50%!!!

This is such a dumb way to nerf ballgroups, it is actually embarrassing this is what you come up with after so many years.

Treating a 2-3 man group the same as a 12 man is mind-blowingly ignorant.

imPDA wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin, this should be added on top of turning off healing from players outside of the group, because it should not ruin your gameplay if some random healer will decide to stack a lot of HoTs on you out of nowhere. Or, if you can, you could decrease healing received from other targets, but left player's own healing as is, because loosing healing you used to is frustrating, but receiving less healing from random healers from outside of group is OK.

If I’m in a group with one friend, and we’re fighting around a castle, how would it be fair for us to not receive any healing from other players?

How would this be fair for people who main a healer in Cyrodiil?

There needs to be a smarter solution than simply turning off heals from an out of group source.

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

A sweeping change this large just shows how unserious the devs are. It's actually just an insult to anyone who PvPs and plays with just 2 friends or more. Saying "oh well it's a work in progress" is a joke. You don't start from some insane position and slowly bring it to normality, it would be the other way around.

Sweeping change? To be fair I would prefer a hard cap at 3 HoTs so absolutely no HoT more than that. So for me that 50% is not even enough yet. Also that would reduce server calculations by a lot and with that lag. Its absolutely insane to me that you can stack 12 RR and 12 Vigor plus any other heal you please. And thats something people complain about since years, and now finally they address it.

50% isn't enough? Okay go play another game lol The opinion of people whose PvP consists of staring down from inside a keep sieging and dying to every other person isn't something I take serious.

Bold statement coming from someone crying about a mere healstacking nerf.

Bold statement coming from someone who think this boils down to addressing 12 people stacking vigor and RR. Reading is hard huh?

So you as a solo player are affected? You do run more than 3 HoTs plus multiple burstheals? Do you deal damage at any time?

Yes my class is affected when solo but I will just drop one HoT, but I can't play with friends at all unless I want a 2-3 man group to have the same healing reduction as a 12 man which makes zero sense. You complain constantly about premade in BGs and are fodder to anyone, I don't know why you are projecting about people dealing dmg.

When did I ever complain about premades in BGs, I do not even play them. At least not since they are 2 way and even 3 way very rarely. Anyway, if you feel the need for ad hominem, I won that discussion by default.

I won the argument by default !!! You don't play cyro, and you aren't good at PvP, your opinion isn't taken seriously.

Fascinating. If you actually believe I do not play Cyrodiil, why was I in another of your posts someone standing in a keep, dying to every other person? That kinda contradicts itself, doesn't it. Maybe more thinking before writing.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Is this making pale order finally viable in group play? Can I effectively block other people's heals from cutting my own heals by 50% by using pale order.

2026 is getting crazy I can finally run a lifesteal build and be functional.

I know you didn’t intend for it, but you bring up a great point about Pale Order.

With these new healing changes, or whatever we land on, this should allow Pale Order to have more power under Battle Spirit, right?

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

A sweeping change this large just shows how unserious the devs are. It's actually just an insult to anyone who PvPs and plays with just 2 friends or more. Saying "oh well it's a work in progress" is a joke. You don't start from some insane position and slowly bring it to normality, it would be the other way around.

Sweeping change? To be fair I would prefer a hard cap at 3 HoTs so absolutely no HoT more than that. So for me that 50% is not even enough yet. Also that would reduce server calculations by a lot and with that lag. Its absolutely insane to me that you can stack 12 RR and 12 Vigor plus any other heal you please. And thats something people complain about since years, and now finally they address it.

50% isn't enough? Okay go play another game lol The opinion of people whose PvP consists of staring down from inside a keep sieging and dying to every other person isn't something I take serious.

Bold statement coming from someone crying about a mere healstacking nerf.

Bold statement coming from someone who think this boils down to addressing 12 people stacking vigor and RR. Reading is hard huh?

So you as a solo player are affected? You do run more than 3 HoTs plus multiple burstheals? Do you deal damage at any time?

Yes my class is affected when solo but I will just drop one HoT, but I can't play with friends at all unless I want a 2-3 man group to have the same healing reduction as a 12 man which makes zero sense. You complain constantly about premade in BGs and are fodder to anyone, I don't know why you are projecting about people dealing dmg.

When did I ever complain about premades in BGs, I do not even play them. At least not since they are 2 way and even 3 way very rarely. Anyway, if you feel the need for ad hominem, I won that discussion by default.

I won the argument by default !!! You don't play cyro, and you aren't good at PvP, your opinion isn't taken seriously.

Fascinating. If you actually believe I do not play Cyrodiil, why was I in another of your posts someone standing in a keep, dying to every other person? That kinda contradicts itself, doesn't it. Maybe more thinking before writing.

Because you lie on the forums and you just want to complain about things you don't agree with because you don't like the state of the game? This comment alone is already a lie because you haven't commented on any posts I've made lol

Sooo what are we doing right now? Follow the quotes of our POSTS very carefully and read again. I am sure you figure it out.

"in another of your posts" This is a lie, stop responding to me, you literally never commented on any of my posts. Why are you trying to give me instructions on how to find a comment you made on my posts that didn't happen? I can clearly see you never commented on any of my posts, the burden of proof is on you, you made the claim and it's a positive one, prove you commented on MY post. It's very simple.

On another note, 50% heal reduction makes small scaling impossible unless we have no interest in going near keeps which is half of the cyro experience.

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

A sweeping change this large just shows how unserious the devs are. It's actually just an insult to anyone who PvPs and plays with just 2 friends or more. Saying "oh well it's a work in progress" is a joke. You don't start from some insane position and slowly bring it to normality, it would be the other way around.

Sweeping change? To be fair I would prefer a hard cap at 3 HoTs so absolutely no HoT more than that. So for me that 50% is not even enough yet. Also that would reduce server calculations by a lot and with that lag. Its absolutely insane to me that you can stack 12 RR and 12 Vigor plus any other heal you please. And thats something people complain about since years, and now finally they address it.

50% isn't enough? Okay go play another game lol The opinion of people whose PvP consists of staring down from inside a keep sieging and dying to every other person isn't something I take serious.

Bold statement coming from someone crying about a mere healstacking nerf.

Bold statement coming from someone who think this boils down to addressing 12 people stacking vigor and RR. Reading is hard huh?

So you as a solo player are affected? You do run more than 3 HoTs plus multiple burstheals? Do you deal damage at any time?

Yes my class is affected when solo but I will just drop one HoT, but I can't play with friends at all unless I want a 2-3 man group to have the same healing reduction as a 12 man which makes zero sense. You complain constantly about premade in BGs and are fodder to anyone, I don't know why you are projecting about people dealing dmg.

When did I ever complain about premades in BGs, I do not even play them. At least not since they are 2 way and even 3 way very rarely. Anyway, if you feel the need for ad hominem, I won that discussion by default.

I won the argument by default !!! You don't play cyro, and you aren't good at PvP, your opinion isn't taken seriously.

Fascinating. If you actually believe I do not play Cyrodiil, why was I in another of your posts someone standing in a keep, dying to every other person? That kinda contradicts itself, doesn't it. Maybe more thinking before writing.

Because you lie on the forums and you just want to complain about things you don't agree with because you don't like the state of the game? This comment alone is already a lie because you haven't commented on any posts I've made lol

Sooo what are we doing right now? Follow the quotes of our POSTS very carefully and read again. I am sure you figure it out.

"in another of your posts" This is a lie, stop responding to me, you literally never commented on any of my posts. Why are you trying to give me instructions on how to find a comment you made on my posts that didn't happen? I can clearly see you never commented on any of my posts, the burden of proof is on you, you made the claim and it's a positive one, prove you commented on MY post. It's very simple.

So you did not figure out that every post you made in this discussion is a different post and in one you said I die in keeps to every other player and another that I do not even play Cyrodiil...how disappointing.

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

A sweeping change this large just shows how unserious the devs are. It's actually just an insult to anyone who PvPs and plays with just 2 friends or more. Saying "oh well it's a work in progress" is a joke. You don't start from some insane position and slowly bring it to normality, it would be the other way around.

Sweeping change? To be fair I would prefer a hard cap at 3 HoTs so absolutely no HoT more than that. So for me that 50% is not even enough yet. Also that would reduce server calculations by a lot and with that lag. Its absolutely insane to me that you can stack 12 RR and 12 Vigor plus any other heal you please. And thats something people complain about since years, and now finally they address it.

50% isn't enough? Okay go play another game lol The opinion of people whose PvP consists of staring down from inside a keep sieging and dying to every other person isn't something I take serious.

Bold statement coming from someone crying about a mere healstacking nerf.

Bold statement coming from someone who think this boils down to addressing 12 people stacking vigor and RR. Reading is hard huh?

So you as a solo player are affected? You do run more than 3 HoTs plus multiple burstheals? Do you deal damage at any time?

Yes my class is affected when solo but I will just drop one HoT, but I can't play with friends at all unless I want a 2-3 man group to have the same healing reduction as a 12 man which makes zero sense. You complain constantly about premade in BGs and are fodder to anyone, I don't know why you are projecting about people dealing dmg.

When did I ever complain about premades in BGs, I do not even play them. At least not since they are 2 way and even 3 way very rarely. Anyway, if you feel the need for ad hominem, I won that discussion by default.

I won the argument by default !!! You don't play cyro, and you aren't good at PvP, your opinion isn't taken seriously.

Fascinating. If you actually believe I do not play Cyrodiil, why was I in another of your posts someone standing in a keep, dying to every other person? That kinda contradicts itself, doesn't it. Maybe more thinking before writing.

Because you lie on the forums and you just want to complain about things you don't agree with because you don't like the state of the game? This comment alone is already a lie because you haven't commented on any posts I've made lol

Sooo what are we doing right now? Follow the quotes of our POSTS very carefully and read again. I am sure you figure it out.

"in another of your posts" This is a lie, stop responding to me, you literally never commented on any of my posts. Why are you trying to give me instructions on how to find a comment you made on my posts that didn't happen? I can clearly see you never commented on any of my posts, the burden of proof is on you, you made the claim and it's a positive one, prove you commented on MY post. It's very simple.

So you did not figure out that every post you made in this discussion is a different post and in one you said I die in keeps to every other player and another that I do not even play Cyrodiil...how disappointing.

So again, where is the post I made you commented on? You made the claim so show me, otherwise what are you even talking about? You didn't comment on any post I have made.

Flirt somewhere else.

A same faction player should never be able to jump into a fight and make everything worse. Why would any solo player want to try to defend a keep if it means Timmy makes his life harder and then goes "I'm helping!"

edit: and Timmy will think he is helping because he'll see his green numbers still pop up over your head, so he won't change his behavior.

Blood_again wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Great change, my only concern is that this HoT check does not differentiate between self-applied heals and foreign ones. I feel like this is an important distinction.

Expecting trolls who spam Regeneration all around in Cyrodiil after patch 49.

This.

Radiate77 wrote: »

imPDA wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin, this should be added on top of turning off healing from players outside of the group, because it should not ruin your gameplay if some random healer will decide to stack a lot of HoTs on you out of nowhere. Or, if you can, you could decrease healing received from other targets, but left player's own healing as is, because loosing healing you used to is frustrating, but receiving less healing from random healers from outside of group is OK.

If I’m in a group with one friend, and we’re fighting around a castle, how would it be fair for us to not receive any healing from other players?

How would this be fair for people who main a healer in Cyrodiil?

There needs to be a smarter solution than simply turning off heals from an out of group source.

Well, it should be tested, but there was a test with healing outside of the group turned off, and I liked it. The only problem was still the huge healing inside the group. With the new healing tuned down, this will become less of a problem. People will have to learn how to heal themselves and how to position themselves on the battlefield. While it is a problem for Cyrodiil healers, I would say PvP doesn't need dedicated healers, and it is now absurd how much healing there is. I can attack an AFK target, and a healer nearby will be able to overheal it, press a barrier, etc. Attacking a moving or blocking target is useless in most cases. It makes bad players feel like good players and allows them to continue playing poorly.

I would say, in the new meta, healers can use more targeted healing - not HoTs - to avoid reaching this debuff and still support the group. Additionally, they can wear support sets to increase toughness or reduce incoming damage. I see nothing mentioned about shields, so that is a third option instead of healing.

If 50% is too much, it will become clear over time, and this change can be adjusted; the number of HoTs (3) could also be increased to 4 or 5. These changes won't be hard to implement, in my opinion, and they will help balance future patches. Current healing is just nonsense, and while this is a huge nerf, it could turn out really well. The only problem I can spot from my side is that I don't want to be affected when playing solo or duo. We have no HoTs to share; we want to have full healing. I would be okay with losing healing from other sources completely. This is just my point of view and my playstyle, and I understand that a lot of people, including almost all new players, will be upset. But I hope it will make people want to learn more, play better, and think about which healing abilities to use and how to position to avoid huge damage.

Let's test this first on Live for some time (2–4 weeks). While it looks good on paper, I'm not sure how it will work in practice. It likely won't affect 1v1 or 1v2 fights, but it should eliminate the zerg problem - or at least make them learn the basics instead of just slapping on random gear and feeling unstoppable with four heals stacking enormous healing.

P.S. With all these changes, it looks like it will be much easier to kill players, so I would suggest siege damage should be nerfed a bit too. Sieges should destroy gates and walls, but they should not be the main weapon against players. In the current meta, sometimes siege is the only thing that can kill a big group - Meatbag + Coldfire works well to reduce healing and deal huge damage at the same time. With the new healing reduction, the Meatbag + Coldfire combination will be even stronger, so it should probably be adjusted as well.

P.P.S. I would also want to talk about resurrection, but it is probably topic for another conversation

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

3 healing over time effects on you halfing all of your received healing is a change that makes no sense.

HoTs and DoTs need to be balanced in the same way because they are polar opposite answers to each other in the game's balance scheme.

The way Major Defile is there to counter Major Vitality as an equal and opposite counter part.

3 healing over time effects on you halving all of your healing would need to be countered by 3 damage over time effects halving all damage you take for the duration as a counter balance. Neither of the two belong in the game. PVP or otherwise.

This change will break the game in all environments with battle spirit.

I wanted to say this earlier, but couldn’t find the words, so thank you.

Everything in this game needs to be in balance with each other, you can’t have a situation where building into one direction is weaker than another, otherwise your choice is made for you.

This has been a problem in ESO for such a long time, swinging from defense metas in Blackwood, to offense ones with Subclassing.

Someone full sending in one direction should hit a wall when meeting someone full sent in the opposite, and how they get over that wall is the essence of skill expression.

Having an arbitrary restriction on your own healing, as a result of external HoT stacking that you can’t control, would be completely out of balance and contrary to what combat in ESO stands for.

If this is aimed towards ball groups heal stacking... then why not just make it to scale with group size ? I mean Pale Order ring & Rallying Cry sets already have something like this. Those sets are weaker if you are in the group and become weaker the larger the group is.

I never understood the approach of nerfing everything except for the play-style/situation when it gets most problematic & game breaking. Cuz Ball Groups will just swap to non-sticky heals & spam those instead and will remain pretty much not affected. Besides, healing being reduced by half won't matter for ball groups as it will be like 20K HP/s instead 40K HP/s. It would require way more reduction and only for groups imho to make this game a bit healthier experience.

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Again, on another note, a scaling healing reduction based on group size would be nice, or even a flat 50% to HoTs once you reach a certain number of people in group, but reaching just 3 HoTs is a lazy way around it. Large groups can still just shield stack and use direct heals, smaller groups are the ones that take the biggest hit from this, and larger groups will not be able to siege efficiently anymore which will lead to mainly open field fights that favor those larger groups.

No this would not be the answer. Remember HoTs are the answer to DoTs in this game. They are meant to be counters.

A scaling healing debuff that increases with crowd or group size that people don't fully understand in a game that is advertised as a "massively multiplayer online game" is a bad idea for reasons I don't think anyone should need to explain.

Larger groups are meant to kill smaller ones. The answer would be more people or better tactics. Not some arbitrary healing debuff that goes against the balance of the game.

TheLoreMaster420 wrote: »

ZOs, You actually cooked this update - all the Quality of Life changes are amazing.

Then you shoved the worst balancing change to mar all the amazing player experience updates.

Please take actual feedback and revisit this change. If you can't figure out a better way to fight heal stacking don't make a bad change that will affect all of cyrodiil. No change is better than a bad change.

With the current change on PTS you treat a small group <6 players the same as a full 12-man group.

With all of scribing, vigor, and regeneration it is incredible easy for a solo or small group to reach 3 HoTs. You are actively punishing people for grouping and coordinating with each other in an MMO.

I agree, I saw the QoL changes and was very pleased and looking forward to the full notes today, then when I saw the HoT change I was a little upset but it wasn't the end of the world, when I read that it's a 50% heal reduction to everything I just canceled my sub. It's beyond just being out of touch, it's almost a deliberate bad change for the sake of outrage. The QoL changes were so good, why ruin the entire patch and the future of all PvP by doing this?

I get that ballgroups are strong, but this is just a punishment for playing with friends. You don't even have to be a sweaty 12 man, you can be a casual 3 person group of friends and you get hit as hard as the best ballgroups that play.