Solo Dungeons will Kill the MMO.

HedgeHugger · January 16

Someone playing solo might never play content with others. Lots of different reasons for playing this way, the why's don't matter. This gives them a chance to have even more content. This is a good thing. Takes nothing away from playing with a group.
Someone might solo out of curiosity, but if anyone is playing just to get their daily dungeon done, then they will group up, because time!.

I wish that group content would scale. I play Duo or Solo. There's only a couple of vet DLC's we haven't duo'd.

frogthroat · January 16

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

ESO is supposed to be competitive, not a stroll through the countryside listening to stories.

Although the single player Elder Scrolls games by Bethesda and ESO by ZOS are different games, and may have contradictions in lore, they are still intricately intertwined. And a significant portion of the players (me included) are coming to ESO from the single player games. For some ESO is the first online game/MMORPG, and they got into ESO precisely because of the single player games (just like me).

It's silly to say ESO is supposed to be competitive, not a stroll through the countryside listening to stories when all characters are voicelined and each and every zone has a zone story, side quests, there's the main questline. Even dungeons have stories.

ESO is most definitely supposed to be a stroll through the countryside listening to stories.

ESO is also supposed to be competitive. And it's supposed to be casual. And it is supposed to be a housing simulator. And a trading simulator. And a crafting simulator. And a casual PVP game. And a hard core PVP game. It's supposed to be a solo game, and a multiplayer game.

But I do share your worry about the dungeon finder if we get the same rewards in solo mode. However, as Soarora pointed out, tanks and healers are not going to solo anything and as there are so many more DDs in the queue and not enough supports, many DDs moving to solo might actually make the queue more tolerable. The obvious downside being, those who can solo dungeons are doing solo dungeons, and those who can't are the ones in the dungeon queue. So the likelihood of getting a player in your group who knows the mechanics is going to be smaller. But hey, we'll see. (And if we do get all the same rewards in solo mode and I can farm sets in solo mode, no more pug runs!)

Cooperharley · January 16

frogthroat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Tanks aren’t going to do solo mode and neither are healers, so queue times will if anything be faster due to less DPS in the queue…

I hadn't considered this. If this is what is going to happen, then I think I am going to be changing my mind from slightly negative scepticism to cautiously optimistic.

Less DPS in the queue will not make it a shorter queue necessarily unless a TON of dps stop queueing to make it relatively similar % wise between roles. Again, I really don't think we're going to see a big queue difference. If we want a faster queue, we just need to make support roles more enticing and exciting.

Also, somebody said support roles likely won't play solo - I think that really just depends. I'm a healer main and play tank here & there and would absolutely do solo dungeons if done correctly. If it's similar to a solo arena, but you can just bring a companion, then you're correct. I likely will do just group stuff. If they implement a system similar to WoW's delves, where you have a companion filling a role, or even better, you have 3 companions filling the roles in a group that you do not occupy (eg, i'm a healer, so there's a tank & 2 dps), then I absolutely will.

Everything depends on implementation. Either way, it's very exciting and i'll make a DPS build just to take every dungeon slow and learn the story the first time. Past that, who knows?

Cooperharley · January 16

Pevey wrote: »

I don’t understand how it could be considered a problem that people who prefer being solo will do solo dungeons and people who like group content will do group dungeons. And for some people the preference will just depend on how they’re feeling that day. This is a good thing. Do you really want to be doing content with people who resent being there?

It's really not going to be a problem. The forums have lots that think the world is ending at every turn, truthfully. There will always be separate crowds of people & you can't please everyone.

PvE centric content added -> PvP players upset/wanting more
PvP centric content added -> PvE players upset/wanting more
Solo content added -> group players upset/wanting more
Group content added -> solo players upset/wanting more

It's just opportunity cost.

Cooperharley · January 16

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

When the toxic casuals get their way there will be no end game community left. Ya'll are shooting yourselves in the foot.

Iriidius wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

ESO is an MMO with group content being the end game activities.

The casual solo crowd just keep lobbying for changes that will make life much harder for those of us who play for the group content.

Solo and story modes discourage grouping, which is the opposite of what ZOS should do if they want to maintain a viable ESO going forward.

And I'm sick and tired of people trying to claim ESO is the latest edition of Elder Scrolls. It's not. ESO wasn't even created by the same studio that produces Elder Scrolls games. ESO is an MMO and grouping is a vital aspect of the game.

ESO already caters almost exclusively to the casual crowd and it's been very detrimental already. Just look at the exodus of players after U35 hit. U35 killed the end game trial community. But the casual solos don't care because it doesn't effect them. Yet the population continues to decline further and further the more ZOS caters to the casual solo players.

Trials and vet dungeons are a blast when they click. But let's be real: the vast majority of ESO players are solo or duo folks, not raid chasers. Reddit polls and threads consistently show 90%+ of content is soloable, and most players stick to overland, quests, or arenas with a buddy—group stuff is a small slice.

The real grouping killer? Hardcore guilds and PUGs kicking anyone under perfect DPS or mechanics.

Newbies and casuals get burned once, then nope out forever—sticking to solo where it's chill. That's why queues feel dead: the pool of potential groupers left awhile back because they were told they were "Bads"....ZOS catering to the solo/duo crowd keeps the 26M player base alive and growing.

More casuals = more funding for your trials. Win-win but honestly there has to be folks actually showing up for them and that has been a issue.

Yeah toxic groups gatekeeping everyone not fitting their expectations are one of the main reasons most ESO players are not playing in groups.
Despite coming from Skyrim I played PvP in Cyrodiil daily for years solo, in PuGs and smallscales but had to stop because solo I get zerged on sight by everyone, PuGs arent available most of the time or get killed immediately and most PvP groups dont let me play with them and the few that do are not online most of the time.

Toxic people in general just suck. Casual or elitist. But saying that adding solo content is for toxic casuals is a little bizarre, just saying

I have some friends that do tons of end game stuff and LOVE solo content to dive into as well. Adding more ways to play the game we all enjoy is inherently good.

frogthroat · January 16

Cooperharley wrote: »

Less DPS in the queue will not make it a shorter queue necessarily unless a TON of dps stop queueing to make it relatively similar % wise between roles. Again, I really don't think we're going to see a big queue difference. If we want a faster queue, we just need to make support roles more enticing and exciting.

Maybe I am looking at this too much from a soloer pov. For me, just implementing "reset instance" button would get me away from most of my pug runs. So maybe I have been incorrectly fearing that if you get the same rewards in solo, no one would go to group mode. Because that's what I would do.

CatoUnchained · January 16

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

When I queue for a group in the dungeon finder, I don't know what my teammates' motivations are the majority of the time. And if they don't share them, then I don't care. Although, I will help them if asked. I just want to find a group in a timely manner and get the dungeon completed for whatever reason I went inside.

But that other poster brought up socializing. And that won't work if the other person has no interest whatsoever.

MMO's aren't for people afraid to socialize. ...as if pixels interacting over the internet is even socializing.

CatoUnchained · January 16

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

ESO is an MMO with group content being the end game activities.

The casual solo crowd just keep lobbying for changes that will make life much harder for those of us who play for the group content.

Solo and story modes discourage grouping, which is the opposite of what ZOS should do if they want to maintain a viable ESO going forward.

And I'm sick and tired of people trying to claim ESO is the latest edition of Elder Scrolls. It's not. ESO wasn't even created by the same studio that produces Elder Scrolls games. ESO is an MMO and grouping is a vital aspect of the game.

ESO already caters almost exclusively to the casual crowd and it's been very detrimental already. Just look at the exodus of players after U35 hit. U35 killed the end game trial community. But the casual solos don't care because it doesn't effect them. Yet the population continues to decline further and further the more ZOS caters to the casual solo players.

Someone gets it.

Solo dungeons will make it even harder to for groups using group finder. U35 already decimated the end game community, and solo dungeons will just further the damage.

Malyore · January 16

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

When the toxic casuals get their way there will be no end game community left. Ya'll are shooting yourselves in the foot.

You mean toxic multiplayers are shooting themselves in the foot. They're a big factor in why so many people want solo modes in the first place. Solo players will be unscathed by whatever the multiplayer community is doing to themselves, because we will still be soloing.
And yet, even so, solo mode doesn't seem historically to affect games in the way you are afraid of. So no foot shooting necessary.

Besides, we all know the real end game community is housing.

spartaxoxo · January 16

The MMO feature that is other big MMOs will not kill this MMO, as long as the rewards don't overshadow the group rewards.

SilverBride · January 16

CatoUnchained wrote: »

MMO's aren't for people afraid to socialize. ...as if pixels interacting over the internet is even socializing.

Isn't it?

I met a player in WoW not long after it launched. We kept running into each other because were questing the same zone. We started talking and became friends. This developed into us talking on the phone, too and even though that was over 20 years ago and we no longer play a game together, we still talk and text and keep in touch. I would call that socializing.

Soarora · January 16

Cooperharley wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Tanks aren’t going to do solo mode and neither are healers, so queue times will if anything be faster due to less DPS in the queue…

I hadn't considered this. If this is what is going to happen, then I think I am going to be changing my mind from slightly negative scepticism to cautiously optimistic.

Less DPS in the queue will not make it a shorter queue necessarily unless a TON of dps stop queueing to make it relatively similar % wise between roles. Again, I really don't think we're going to see a big queue difference. If we want a faster queue, we just need to make support roles more enticing and exciting.

Also, somebody said support roles likely won't play solo - I think that really just depends. I'm a healer main and play tank here & there and would absolutely do solo dungeons if done correctly. If it's similar to a solo arena, but you can just bring a companion, then you're correct. I likely will do just group stuff. If they implement a system similar to WoW's delves, where you have a companion filling a role, or even better, you have 3 companions filling the roles in a group that you do not occupy (eg, i'm a healer, so there's a tank & 2 dps), then I absolutely will.

Everything depends on implementation. Either way, it's very exciting and i'll make a DPS build just to take every dungeon slow and learn the story the first time. Past that, who knows?

Thank you for your perspective on what I said! I’m just thinking through things, but I’m not one of the people solo mode would really benefit aside from maybe actually learning the stories instead of picking up the gist of them.

My presumption is that by solo they mean no companions (even IA makes your run a duo run when you take out a companion, and 0 NPCs I’ve ever seen have had AI good enough to actually do roles), and I think that’s a good thing. Story mode for story, the higher difficulty solo mode for people who don’t want to group or want to play the dungeons in a different way, then the 4-man instance for duos and, well, 4-man.

Cooperharley · January 16

CatoUnchained wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

ESO is an MMO with group content being the end game activities.

The casual solo crowd just keep lobbying for changes that will make life much harder for those of us who play for the group content.

Solo and story modes discourage grouping, which is the opposite of what ZOS should do if they want to maintain a viable ESO going forward.

And I'm sick and tired of people trying to claim ESO is the latest edition of Elder Scrolls. It's not. ESO wasn't even created by the same studio that produces Elder Scrolls games. ESO is an MMO and grouping is a vital aspect of the game.

ESO already caters almost exclusively to the casual crowd and it's been very detrimental already. Just look at the exodus of players after U35 hit. U35 killed the end game trial community. But the casual solos don't care because it doesn't effect them. Yet the population continues to decline further and further the more ZOS caters to the casual solo players.

Someone gets it.

Solo dungeons will make it even harder to for groups using group finder. U35 already decimated the end game community, and solo dungeons will just further the damage.

The only way we'd see a heavy decrease in groups being formed is if the rewards in solo gameplay completely overshadowed the rewards in group play, which they won't. Look at WoW & delves. You can get great rewards in delves (single player, scaling dungeon-like content), but better rewards in mythic+ (group dungeons). Quite literally no difference in the way everyone plays. Just offered a new way for solo players to engage with end game and it actually brought more people to the game. We have no idea what anything looks like, but this notion of "solo dungeons will kill the game" is beyond ridiculous. Not even close to true.

Also, the "end game community" which is comprised of score pushers and the like is not engaging with the average player that will prefer this over pugging a veteran dungeon lol

robwolf666 · January 16

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

When I queue for a group in the dungeon finder, I don't know what my teammates' motivations are the majority of the time. And if they don't share them, then I don't care. Although, I will help them if asked. I just want to find a group in a timely manner and get the dungeon completed for whatever reason I went inside.

But that other poster brought up socializing. And that won't work if the other person has no interest whatsoever.

MMO's aren't for people afraid to socialize. ...as if pixels interacting over the internet is even socializing.

Some of us are here for the Elder Scrolls in ESO, not the MMO... In fact, I'm willing to bet if ZOS stripped out all of the MMO stuff (Group/PvP content etc - and no, before you jump on it, I'm not saying that they should) and went forward as a pure single player game like Skyrim, it would still have a very healthy and loyal fanbase. Why? Because this is the largest Elder Scrolls game ever, and it's heaven for Elder Scrolls fans in that regard.

Syldras · January 16

CatoUnchained wrote: »

MMO's aren't for people afraid to socialize. ...as if pixels interacting over the internet is even socializing.

If people who only want to solo content don't belong here anyway, why are you bothered by them playing solo dungeons instead of grouping now?

SeaGtGruff · January 16

For me, being able to solo certain dungeons is going to be nice. I can already clear many dungeons solo, but for others there are mechanics which prevent me from being able solo them, and those are the ones I'm looking forward to.

As far as story mode, I might use it to experience the stories of certain dungeons, but I'll still prefer to do the stories during a normal solo run if possible.

Bottom line: This modification won't change the way I prefer to play, although it will open up content that I couldn't experience solo before. And it won't make me less likely to group with other players for dungeons, since I don't do that, anyway.

Just to be clear, I'm fine with not being able to solo certain content due to mechanics that can't be handled by one player. I've always just skipped such content, and would be fine with continuing to skip it if it were left as-is. But that shows that putting in mechanics which require two or more players to handle doesn't always work if the reason for doing that was to get players to group together. That might work with some players-- who would probably group together, anyway-- but not with all players.

SilverBride · January 16

The only issue I see with solo dungeons is the push to get players that don't want to group to do it anyway because it would benefit someone else. But it really wouldn't, because players that don't group now still aren't going to group, regardless if there are solo dungeons or not.

Muizer · January 16

In fact, solo dungeons, depending on how they make them, could reduce the apprehension to join groups. If they serve to familiarize players with the mechanics, they could serve as a 'training ground'.

Tyralbin · January 17

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

Some people seem to forget the history of Elder Scrolls.

ESO attracted peeple from the solo playing community to it because of this.

Solo dungeons are more in keeping with its original setup.

I am not saying not to have group content just the more diveerse a game is the better it is off for it.

The original set up is to require grouping for dungeons.

I meant the original setup of The Elder Scrolls.

reazea · January 17

Tyralbin wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

Some people seem to forget the history of Elder Scrolls.

ESO attracted peeple from the solo playing community to it because of this.

Solo dungeons are more in keeping with its original setup.

I am not saying not to have group content just the more diveerse a game is the better it is off for it.

The original set up is to require grouping for dungeons.

I meant the original setup of The Elder Scrolls.

ESO is not part of the Elder Scrolls series of games. ESO is only elder scrolls themed. What other Elder Scrolls game is an MMO? (right, none, ever) ESO wasn't even created by the same studio that creates Elder Scrolls games.

This push by the casuals that never play any group content when all end game activities are group content is asking for the game to be made into something it was never intended to be.

People who don't engage in group content aren't playing 80% of the game. All end game content is group content. So it's nonsensical to act as though ESO was designed to be a solo game.

reazea · January 17

JustLovely wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Solo dungeons in any capacity is a horrible idea for any MMO.

People who are afraid to group just need to dive in and do it. It won't always work out how you like, but that's life. Sometimes it turns out great and you make a new friend.

I think you're missing the point, some people want to take the dungeons slow, roleplay, etc the first quest through. I think it is healthy to give it as an option.

That is hard in a group setting when half want to speed run. Groups will likely default more to speed runs when everyone has the option to get their skill point solo... Eventually once all dungeons have the option.

Story mode is already an option. Just group with 3 friends and go the the dungeon of your choice and spend as much time there doing whatever you like. I'm pretty sure you could even do one friend and two companions and make it work, or just go in by yourself and solo the dungeon.

Exactly.

Solo mode is already an option.

The group finder is already struggling and solo/story mode will just make it harder for those of us who play group content and run pug dungeons, which all end game being group content.

Just because the solo casuals hate/fear or whatever their problem is with group content may be, most of ESO and all of ESO end game is group content. Lobbying to make it harder to form groups hurts the entire game and everyone who plays it.

SilverBride · January 17

reazea wrote: »

Solo mode is already an option.

The group finder is already struggling and solo/story mode will just make it harder for those of us who play group content and run pug dungeons, which all end game being group content.

Just because the solo casuals hate/fear or whatever their problem is with group content may be, most of ESO and all of ESO end game is group content. Lobbying to make it harder to form groups hurts the entire game and everyone who plays it.

This isn't just about solo mode. It's about story mode and being able to do dungeon quests and play through the story at our own time and in our own way.

This isn't about fearing group content. I run dungeons and trials and I still look forward to story mode so I can have my relaxing immersive time, too.

And it's not about lobbying to make it harder for others to form groups. No one wants story mode just so they can hurt group players. They just want to enjoy the dungeon and story.

Having problems forming groups is a separate issue and not the responsibility of other players to fix it.

Syldras · January 17

reazea wrote: »

ESO is not part of the Elder Scrolls series of games. ESO is only elder scrolls themed. What other Elder Scrolls game is an MMO? (right, none, ever) ESO wasn't even created by the same studio that creates Elder Scrolls games.
This push by the casuals that never play any group content when all end game activities are group content is asking for the game to be made into something it was never intended to be.
[snip]

In the end it's not yours or mine to decide what ESO becomes, but ZOS's decision. And it seems they've made theirs.
[edited to remove quote]

reazea · January 17

Syldras wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

ESO is not part of the Elder Scrolls series of games. ESO is only elder scrolls themed. What other Elder Scrolls game is an MMO? (right, none, ever) ESO wasn't even created by the same studio that creates Elder Scrolls games.
This push by the casuals that never play any group content when all end game activities are group content is asking for the game to be made into something it was never intended to be.
[snip]

In the end it's not yours or mine to decide what ESO becomes, but ZOS's decision. And it seems they've made theirs.

It's up to us whether we stick around and keep playing ESO. And all your pushing to make ESO a solo game has already decimated the player population. Keep at it and they may as well shut the game down.

SilverBride wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Solo mode is already an option.

The group finder is already struggling and solo/story mode will just make it harder for those of us who play group content and run pug dungeons, which all end game being group content.

Just because the solo casuals hate/fear or whatever their problem is with group content may be, most of ESO and all of ESO end game is group content. Lobbying to make it harder to form groups hurts the entire game and everyone who plays it.

This isn't just about solo mode. It's about story mode and being able to do dungeon quests and play through the story at our own time and in our own way.

This isn't about fearing group content. I run dungeons and trials and I still look forward to story mode so I can have my relaxing immersive time, too.

And it's not about lobbying to make it harder for others to form groups. No one wants story mode just so they can hurt group players. They just want to enjoy the dungeon and story.

Having problems forming groups is a separate issue and not the responsibility of other players to fix it.

[edited to remove quote]

Syldras · January 17

reazea wrote: »

It's up to us whether we stick around and keep playing ESO. And all your pushing to make ESO a solo game has already decimated the player population. Keep at it and they may as well shut the game down.

Where have I pushed to make ESO a solo game? I think this game wouldn't survive without both solo and group players. So it needs a way to appeal to both. If all solo players would leave, it would also be ESO's end.

Soarora · January 17

reazea wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

Some people seem to forget the history of Elder Scrolls.

ESO attracted peeple from the solo playing community to it because of this.

Solo dungeons are more in keeping with its original setup.

I am not saying not to have group content just the more diveerse a game is the better it is off for it.

The original set up is to require grouping for dungeons.

I meant the original setup of The Elder Scrolls.

ESO is not part of the Elder Scrolls series of games. ESO is only elder scrolls themed. What other Elder Scrolls game is an MMO? (right, none, ever) ESO wasn't even created by the same studio that creates Elder Scrolls games.

This push by the casuals that never play any group content when all end game activities are group content is asking for the game to be made into something it was never intended to be.

[snip]

ESO is a part of the elder scrolls series. It’s not a “mainline” game, sure, it’s a spin-off, but it still contributes to lore. ESO is simply in the same category as Legends, Blades, the Travels miniseries, Battlespire, Redguard…

All endgame activities are group content… what? I mean, as far as I’ve noticed, the people soloing trifecta dungeons, doing long IA runs, and scorepushing solo arenas also do endgame group content but I would consider those activities endgame as well.

Just because someone refuses to group doesn’t mean they’re not serious about the game. People who aren’t serious about the game probably don’t even have a forum account. I also don’t think 80% is an accurate number if you go by individual volume (like the sheer amount of quests). If you’re going by category, then I guess I see where you got the number from.
[edited to remove quote]

DaveMoeDee · January 17

Less MMO features is better. More enjoying lore and story is better.

I'll pass on speed-running content to grind gear. Don't get me wrong--I enjoy group content. I just enjoy taking my time and listening to NPCs more.

Daily random dungeons is a horrible feature. People are doing it for things unrelated to enjoying the content. They just want to get through the content for some loot. Sounds like ensh**ification to me,

Syldras · January 17

The main question I ask myself when reading this thread is this: The amount of prejudice, accusations and outright hostility towards solo players is quite noticeable. How would that motivate any solo player to try group content if they know they'll likely come across the same people there?

I'd also think higher difficulty group content needs people to be able to collaborate reasonably. I don't even see much ability for that in this thread, and we're not even in a difficult and potentially stressful scenario here, but just talking.

Orbital78 · January 17

One of the things ESO does well is allowing players to quickly do content with any size group (for the most part). I mean they added companions (as flawed a system as it is) which basically says they want players to be able to solo more content if they please.

I still think some are freaking out over nothing though, from the live stream I got the feeling that it would not be very rewarding to solo other than hopefully your skill point from the quest. I don't think players that are currently using the group finder or even more so the queue are going anywhere. I personally only use the group finder for trials and the queue system for convenience.

Soarora · January 17

Syldras wrote: »

The main question I ask myself when reading this thread is this: The amount of prejudice, accusations and outright hostility towards solo players is quite noticeable. How would that motivate any solo player to try group content if they know they'll likely come across the same people there?

I'd also think higher difficulty group content needs people to be able to collaborate reasonably. I don't even see much ability for that in this thread, and we're not even in a difficult and potentially stressful scenario here, but just talking.

Beautifully said. I’m still waiting for a better argument than “it’ll kill endgame”. The only way I could see it harming endgame is the development time of making the solo dungeons.

And again, the dungeon finder isn’t endgame. If anything, if the queue were to break down (which it won’t) it’d encourage more people to make and join guilds… which would benefit dungeon endgame?