Solo Dungeons will Kill the MMO.

AzuraFan · January 14

frogthroat wrote: »

Obviously the group difficulty achievements (veteran completion, HM, speedrun, no death, trifecta) need to remain only in group mode. If solo mode has difficulty levels (which it will have) they need to be separate achievements. Otherwise the group achievements mean nothing. But yeah, most dungeons have plenty of RP-achievements, and even the slayer achievements should be possible in veteran solo mode.

Agreed. For sure trifecta and other group achievements would not be doable in solo mode, though there could be equivalent solo achievements.

For sets, I'd suggest dropping sets with stats geared toward solo play.

Yeah, you have to wait for masks to come up and pay for them. Dropping them in solo mode would just mean I get them faster. It would not entice me to pug to get them. I'll just wait for them to show up at the golden vendor.

Melivar · January 14

Didn't read the whole thread but until we see the reward/loot structure for the solo dungeons there isn't much need to debate on how it will affect overall game health.

They will most likely be more for story mode with little to no rewards, but I doubt you will be able to get the same loot and achievements as a normal group dungeon in either case.

If there are different difficulty options, then each would probably have its own reward and achievement options

frogthroat · January 14

AzuraFan wrote: »

For sets, I'd suggest dropping sets with stats geared toward solo play.

Here's an idea! Drop overland sets in solo mode. That way it looks and feels the same as 4 player dungeon, but you get Delve rewards.

ToddIngram · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The only way solo/story mode doesn't break the game for players who play MMO's for grouping and socializing is if there are no rewards.

Not being able to do the quest or enjoy the story breaks the game for players that enjoy those things.

Nothing's stopping anyone from doing the quests and enjoying the story now.

This is just another case of the casuals wanting to change the game to something other than what it was designed to be. They want to take the MMO part out of ESO, which will ruin it for those of us who play group content as the game was designed to be played.

ToddIngram · January 14

shadyjane62 wrote: »

For 11 years I have avoided all dungeons simply because you have to play with other unknown people. I am right now being harassed by another player everyday in Rimmen when I'm trying to do dailies. This person follows me relentlessly mudsinging me to the point I have to leave for another zone.

This is why I never do dungeons, because of people like this.

I might even stay in game for a chance at solo dungeons.

You could do your dailies in another town for a week and solve this issue.

SilverBride · January 14

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The only way solo/story mode doesn't break the game for players who play MMO's for grouping and socializing is if there are no rewards.

Not being able to do the quest or enjoy the story breaks the game for players that enjoy those things.

Nothing's stopping anyone from doing the quests and enjoying the story now.

This is just another case of the casuals wanting to change the game to something other than what it was designed to be. They want to take the MMO part out of ESO, which will ruin it for those of us who play group content as the game was designed to be played.

Where is it stated that the game was designed to be played in groups? There is a lot of solo content in this game and it was designed that way.

ToddIngram · January 14

SilverBride wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The only way solo/story mode doesn't break the game for players who play MMO's for grouping and socializing is if there are no rewards.

Not being able to do the quest or enjoy the story breaks the game for players that enjoy those things.

Nothing's stopping anyone from doing the quests and enjoying the story now.

This is just another case of the casuals wanting to change the game to something other than what it was designed to be. They want to take the MMO part out of ESO, which will ruin it for those of us who play group content as the game was designed to be played.

Where is it stated that the game was designed to be played in groups? There is a lot of solo content in this game and it was designed that way.

Nice try. You get an A for effort.

SilverBride · January 14

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The only way solo/story mode doesn't break the game for players who play MMO's for grouping and socializing is if there are no rewards.

Not being able to do the quest or enjoy the story breaks the game for players that enjoy those things.

Nothing's stopping anyone from doing the quests and enjoying the story now.

This is just another case of the casuals wanting to change the game to something other than what it was designed to be. They want to take the MMO part out of ESO, which will ruin it for those of us who play group content as the game was designed to be played.

Where is it stated that the game was designed to be played in groups? There is a lot of solo content in this game and it was designed that way.

Nice try. You get an A for effort.

Stating facts.

AzuraFan · January 14

frogthroat wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

For sets, I'd suggest dropping sets with stats geared toward solo play.

Here's an idea! Drop overland sets in solo mode. That way it looks and feels the same as 4 player dungeon, but you get Delve rewards.

That wouldn't make sense. Why would anyone repeat the solo dungeons if they can get the same sets from overland? Also, most people who've been playing the game for a while already have all the overland sets.

I'm hoping the solo mode dungeons will be a bit more challenging than overland. Not overly so (and there may be different difficulty levels). I'd expect that perhaps story mode would have mobs on par with overland.

For sets dropped in solo mode, it would be nice for them to have stats like the ring of the pale order. Buffs that only apply outside groups. Or fun stuff, like increased probability of antiquities drops while wearing 5 pieces and not in a group. Or increased chance for furniture-related drops. Etc. That might even give me a reason to use the armory. Right now, I have no use for it.

Soarora · January 14

I actually agree that sets should drop in solo mode as green or white, though this would affect reconstruction. But I don’t know about other people, I have so many green and blue upgrade mats that I vendor them. So…

No monster masks though. That should be reserved for veteran. In my experience, the veteran queue is a lot better than the normal queue. The normal queue needs to have its experience upgraded and solo dungeons as well as better sourcing of transmute (ZOS, IF YOU’RE READING THIS, PLEASE FIX THE DLC HM PLEDGE GEODE. IT GIVES LESS THAN NON DLC PLEDGES. STILL.) are realistically the way to do that because with solo dungeons:
- people won’t have the friction of trying to do a quest with a group that sees them as NPCs
- people can explore without annoying everyone else
- farmers can spam a solo mode for their sets, removing one cause of speedrunning. The remaining causes are transmute and experience grind. There is also the cause of “I did this dungeon 7000 times already” but I think that’s in addition to transmute grind.

robwolf666 · January 14

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The only way solo/story mode doesn't break the game for players who play MMO's for grouping and socializing is if there are no rewards.

Not being able to do the quest or enjoy the story breaks the game for players that enjoy those things.

Nothing's stopping anyone from doing the quests and enjoying the story now.

This is just another case of the casuals wanting to change the game to something other than what it was designed to be. They want to take the MMO part out of ESO, which will ruin it for those of us who play group content as the game was designed to be played.

I would say more along the lines of Elder Scrolls fans wanting it to be more like Elder Scrolls. You know, the series it's based on.

frogthroat · January 14

AzuraFan wrote: »

That wouldn't make sense. Why would anyone repeat the solo dungeons if they can get the same sets from overland? Also, most people who've been playing the game for a while already have all the overland sets.

For the same reason I and many other end game soloers solo dungeons already now. For the thrill. Some to get a good time for trifecta. Once the last boss dies, all the dopamine is for me. Undiluted by other players. I get all the nice brain chemicals and some extra because I did something that was not even designed to work.

Because set farming is one of the biggest reasons why I pug, if the solo mode gives you dungeon set pieces, me and all players like me will vanish from the dungeon finder. I would only go with pugs for motifs and transmutes, unless they also drop from solo mode.

I would be happy with just a tough as nails solo experience, no rewards needed. But something should be given, so overland sets for the area where the dungeon is would be a good compromise. I know it may sound strange that I want a difficult solo mode but no rewards, but I know myself. If I have a chance to not pug, I will not. Don't give me the opportunity to not pug if you want to see the dungeon finder alive.

AzuraFan wrote: »

I'm hoping the solo mode dungeons will be a bit more challenging than overland. Not overly so

This is my fear. They are starting with MHK and MoS. Both are already soloable, even on HM. I want the max difficulty to be on par with 4 player HM. Just lowered enough that trifecta is possible in more difficult dungeons, but no more.

My fear is that the dungeons will be so gutted that you can light attack through the highest difficulty. I truly hope I am wrong.

AzuraFan wrote: »

(and there may be different difficulty levels).

There will be.

AzuraFan wrote: »

I'd expect that perhaps story mode would have mobs on par with overland.

That is different from solo mode. I also thought at first solo mode and story mode are the same.

AzuraFan wrote: »

For sets dropped in solo mode, it would be nice for them to have stats like the ring of the pale order. Buffs that only apply outside groups. Or fun stuff, like increased probability of antiquities drops while wearing 5 pieces and not in a group. Or increased chance for furniture-related drops. Etc. That might even give me a reason to use the armory. Right now, I have no use for it.

Would be nice but don't hold your breath. They are updating the old dungeons for solo mode, so I doubt they are adding any new sets. It will be old sets.

How do you not need the armory tho? Like, how?

Warhawke_80 · January 14

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The only way solo/story mode doesn't break the game for players who play MMO's for grouping and socializing is if there are no rewards.

Not being able to do the quest or enjoy the story breaks the game for players that enjoy those things.

Nothing's stopping anyone from doing the quests and enjoying the story now.

This is just another case of the casuals wanting to change the game to something other than what it was designed to be. They want to take the MMO part out of ESO, which will ruin it for those of us who play group content as the game was designed to be played.

Personally I like the direction of the game and I'm not sure why anyone is surprised...it's been heading in this direction for years...and lets be honest ESO was never a traditional MMO...it has always been a Online Role Playing game...yes they added End Game Raiding and PVP but neither one of these pursuits draw a huge number of players...despite that the devs have always tried to provide content for everyone...and I don't see that changing.

AzuraFan · January 14

frogthroat wrote: »

Because set farming is one of the biggest reasons why I pug, if the solo mode gives you dungeon set pieces, me and all players like me will vanish from the dungeon finder. I would only go with pugs for motifs and transmutes, unless they also drop from solo mode.

Yes, set farming is good, and we've already agreed that solo dungeons shouldn't drop existing dungeon sets. But your suggestion was to have overland sets drop in the solo dungeons. Nobody is going to farm solo dungeons for overland sets. If solo dungeons drop sets, they need to be new.

This is my fear. They are starting with MHK and MoS. Both are already soloable, even on HM. I want the max difficulty to be on par with 4 player HM. Just lowered enough that trifecta is possible in more difficult dungeons, but no more.

My fear is that the dungeons will be so gutted that you can light attack through the highest difficulty. I truly hope I am wrong.

I'm not sure what you mean here. The existing dungeons, with the existing difficulty levels, will still be there. The solo difficulty levels will be new. So they aren't gutting anything.

I can't solo MHK and MoS at all. If I could, I wouldn't need solo dungeons. I don't think I'm atypical. Solo dungeons are for those of us who can't solo existing dungeons Otherwise we'd just do that.

How do you not need the armory tho? Like, how?

I'm predominantly a solo PvE player. Why would I need to change sets? There are no toxic people to tell me I'm not wearing the correct one.

ToddIngram · January 14

robwolf666 wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The only way solo/story mode doesn't break the game for players who play MMO's for grouping and socializing is if there are no rewards.

Not being able to do the quest or enjoy the story breaks the game for players that enjoy those things.

Nothing's stopping anyone from doing the quests and enjoying the story now.

This is just another case of the casuals wanting to change the game to something other than what it was designed to be. They want to take the MMO part out of ESO, which will ruin it for those of us who play group content as the game was designed to be played.

I would say more along the lines of Elder Scrolls fans wanting it to be more like Elder Scrolls. You know, the series it's based on.

ESO has never been the next ESO game in a series of of Elder Scrolls games. ESO is an Elder Scrolls THEMED MMO. It's not another in the series of Elder Scrolls games. Never has been, and never will be.

I was disappointed at first, being an Elder Scrolls fan myself, but after my initial disappointment wore off, I realized how much better the game is as an MMO.

This is a case of people buying a game and immediately expecting that the game designers change the game into something it was never intended to be.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The only way solo/story mode doesn't break the game for players who play MMO's for grouping and socializing is if there are no rewards.

Not being able to do the quest or enjoy the story breaks the game for players that enjoy those things.

Nothing's stopping anyone from doing the quests and enjoying the story now.

This is just another case of the casuals wanting to change the game to something other than what it was designed to be. They want to take the MMO part out of ESO, which will ruin it for those of us who play group content as the game was designed to be played.

Personally I like the direction of the game and I'm not sure why anyone is surprised...it's been heading in this direction for years...and lets be honest ESO was never a traditional MMO...it has always been a Online Role Playing game...yes they added End Game Raiding and PVP but neither one of these pursuits draw a huge number of players...despite that the devs have always tried to provide content for everyone...and I don't see that changing.

Harry_Toes · January 14

Unless they include the same rewards as for a PUG dungeon (10 transmute crystals) the primary motivator for group dungeons will not go away.

Elvenheart · January 14

ToddIngram wrote: »

shadyjane62 wrote: »

For 11 years I have avoided all dungeons simply because you have to play with other unknown people. I am right now being harassed by another player everyday in Rimmen when I'm trying to do dailies. This person follows me relentlessly mudsinging me to the point I have to leave for another zone.

This is why I never do dungeons, because of people like this.

I might even stay in game for a chance at solo dungeons.

shadyjane62 wrote: »

For 11 years I have avoided all dungeons simply because you have to play with other unknown people. I am right now being harassed by another player everyday in Rimmen when I'm trying to do dailies. This person follows me relentlessly mudsinging me to the point I have to leave for another zone.

This is why I never do dungeons, because of people like this.

I might even stay in game for a chance at solo dungeons.

You could do your dailies in another town for a week and solve this issue.

Wow, your solution puts the onus on the victim to change the way they enjoy the game to get relief from being harassed instead of action being taken against the one doing the harassing. That just doesn’t seem right.

Cooperharley · January 14

Last'One wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

I think solo dungeons are fine as long as you can't get exactly what you can get from the vet version, like a monster helm. Keep rewards different, but less desirable/ powerful than the vet version.

So… if I want to get one monster set, I have to play with toxic players, speed runners, gatekeeping players and etc....? What if I want-to-play-the-way-I-want? Why do I have to be the target of others just to get one monster set?

If story or solo dungeons give monster helms or rewards at all it will break the game for everyone who wants to group and play group content. The solo or story mode should be the only reward for those players wanting it.

"It will break the game for everyone"?
What about all the gatekeeping people already do in Group Finder?
What about demanding parses and logs just to participate in a simple HM?
What about requiring the Hodor Reflex addon just to join a trial?
What about blocking players simply because they use Oakensoul or OneBar builds, for whatever reason?
What about kicking players from groups just because they aren’t a tank—when they just want to use a sword and shield because they’re new and still learning the game?

Solo dungeons will not break the game. You know why? Because players are already doing them.

Players are the ones who break the multiplayer experience. ZOS is the one that breaks the game’s lore and allows all of this to go out of control.

Exactly.

I've had more & more crappy experiences in groups the more I've played. I like playing with friends & guildies, but a lot of the time have to play solo due to scheduling differences or just desire. Having the ability to do both would make me a happier customer. I'll absolutely play with my friends, but would love a solo version for myself.

Cooperharley · January 14

frogthroat wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

For sets, I'd suggest dropping sets with stats geared toward solo play.

Here's an idea! Drop overland sets in solo mode. That way it looks and feels the same as 4 player dungeon, but you get Delve rewards.

Nah. Bad take IMO.

If I do a veteran dungeon in solo mode and get delve rewards, I'm not touching it. Rewards need to match the difficulty of content. That's like saying if you do veteran vateshran, a solo arena, you should get delve rewards. If you are doing veteran difficult solo content, you absolutely should be rewarded as such.

GloatingSwine · January 14

Cooperharley wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

For sets, I'd suggest dropping sets with stats geared toward solo play.

Here's an idea! Drop overland sets in solo mode. That way it looks and feels the same as 4 player dungeon, but you get Delve rewards.

Nah. Bad take IMO.

If I do a veteran dungeon in solo mode and get delve rewards, I'm not touching it. Rewards need to match the difficulty of content. That's like saying if you do veteran vateshran, a solo arena, you should get delve rewards. If you are doing veteran difficult solo content, you absolutely should be rewarded as such.

Sounds to me like solo is going to be a mode of its own, so if you did a vet dungeon solo that would be the same as doing it solo now. You would be doing the 4 man instance on your own.

(Also they need to remove all the instances where you can't solo a dungeon because buttons/levers, that is not interesting group content, interesting group content is the trials where you split into teams to do different stuff)

spartaxoxo · January 14

ToddIngram wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The only way solo/story mode doesn't break the game for players who play MMO's for grouping and socializing is if there are no rewards.

Not being able to do the quest or enjoy the story breaks the game for players that enjoy those things.

Nothing's stopping anyone from doing the quests and enjoying the story now.

This is just another case of the casuals wanting to change the game to something other than what it was designed to be. They want to take the MMO part out of ESO, which will ruin it for those of us who play group content as the game was designed to be played.

I would say more along the lines of Elder Scrolls fans wanting it to be more like Elder Scrolls. You know, the series it's based on.

ESO has never been the next ESO game in a series of of Elder Scrolls games. ESO is an Elder Scrolls THEMED MMO. It's not another in the series of Elder Scrolls games. Never has been, and never will be.

I was disappointed at first, being an Elder Scrolls fan myself, but after my initial disappointment wore off, I realized how much better the game is as an MMO.

This is a case of people buying a game and immediately expecting that the game designers change the game into something it was never intended to be.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The only way solo/story mode doesn't break the game for players who play MMO's for grouping and socializing is if there are no rewards.

Not being able to do the quest or enjoy the story breaks the game for players that enjoy those things.

Nothing's stopping anyone from doing the quests and enjoying the story now.

This is just another case of the casuals wanting to change the game to something other than what it was designed to be. They want to take the MMO part out of ESO, which will ruin it for those of us who play group content as the game was designed to be played.

Personally I like the direction of the game and I'm not sure why anyone is surprised...it's been heading in this direction for years...and lets be honest ESO was never a traditional MMO...it has always been a Online Role Playing game...yes they added End Game Raiding and PVP but neither one of these pursuits draw a huge number of players...despite that the devs have always tried to provide content for everyone...and I don't see that changing.

ESO is canon to the single player games. It's absolutely meant to be a prequel game. The Oblivion Remaster retooled some things to fit ESO even. For example, the statue of the founder of the mage's guild was changed to look like ESO's depiction of Vanus. This is an Elder Scrolls game first.

Some people play this game as Skyrim with Friends. Some go more for the group play elements such as PvP or dungeons and trials. There's no one right way to play ESO.

peacenote · January 15

Syldras wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

In my opinion, ZOS has always done a fairly decent job of encouraging its playerbase to try new things. I think it's good for the game, and, because it is an online game and it is a large community, I think it's good for the players too.

I'm genuinely curious: Does the average adult person need "encouragement" to try things? It comes up on this forum all the time and it always makes me wonder whether there might be cultural differences at play here, or what ever it is?

Oh, absolutely they do. And I say this not just as a gamer but someone who oversees a very large group for my day job, and has accountability for helping people grow and stretch their wings in their careers. I'm not going to make up a statistic, but I have not run across a lot of people in my lifetime who notice everything and absorb all information and opportunities perfectly and completely, and are 100% confident in every single activity they do. People often need encouragement or some kind of motivation (like a reward or outcome) to step out of their comfort zones.

I could write a really long response to this but I'll try to keep it short. First of all, there is no such thing as an average adult. How people think in their 20's is way different than they think in their 60's. Men and women think differently. You notice different things if you're in a relationship or single. And, even within a single person and their identity, they are on a scale. Someone focused and playful is going to react way differently to a challenge, even in a video game, than they will if, on a different day, they are distracted, sick, hungry, etc. In game, new players notice different things than veteran players. People who are "here for Elder Scrolls" notice different things than people who are "here because it's an MMO."

Not to mention that many people who play video games are introverts and are legitimately shy or nervous getting into group content. I absolutely was, in my first MMO, and to this day I'll still find certain groups or activities intimidating, or find I don't have the energy on a specific day to interact in a group chat scenario, even though generally speaking I enjoy group play. I never would have stepped a virtual foot into an MMO if a friend hadn't brought me in, with much encouragement. But I'm so glad they did.

I think it's actually a pretty big responsibility of the devs, yes though ESO is a video game, to understand human behavior, and use that understanding to make content that is enjoyable by as many people as possible, while not using that understanding to manipulate people and feed into addictions, FOMO, etc. I think ethics belong everywhere, even in games.

SeaGtGruff · January 15

Soarora wrote: »

I just want to throw in here that if there was a story mode Vaults of Madness I would do it purely because it's incredibly annoying to try to do that quest in a group. And I do dungeons as my main content.

(Yes, I know, I can solo it. But also... I'm lazy... and... as a tank...? Story mode would let me blast through it presumably.)

I actually enjoy soloing Vaults of Madness (on Normal) with my two mains. I guess they're what you'd call "weak fake tanks," because I chose to classify them as "tanks" for grouping purposes, but they're only somewhat tanky and not nearly powerful enough to be classified as DDs. Since I never queue for group dungeons or trials, I don't think of them as genuine "fake tanks" since to me that implies deliberately sneaky attempts by DDs to queue into group dungeons faster by posing as tanks. I think of them more as "solo" builds that need to be tanky enough for the content I enjoy, do enough damage to kill bosses, and also be able to self-heal when needed. And since I don't grind for BIS gear or for mythic Antiquity leads, they are pretty weak by most players' standards. So it does take me a while to get through Vaults of Madness solo, but i find it to be rather fun. The harvester boss takes an especially long time for me to kill, but it's perversely somewhat relaxing since most of the fight is spent being lifted up and helplessly immobilized, so I have to slap some DOTs on her before she grabs me. The worst boss, in my opinion, is the wraith that comes immediately before the harvester, because if I'm not fast enough with my self-heals then it can kill me before I realize I'm taking too much damage too quickly.

Syldras · January 15

ToddIngram wrote: »

This is just another case of the casuals wanting to change the game to something other than what it was designed to be. They want to take the MMO part out of ESO, which will ruin it for those of us who play group content as the game was designed to be played.

You can still play all group activity types that have ever been introduced in ESO. None of that is taken away.

peacenote wrote: »

I think it's actually a pretty big responsibility of the devs, yes though ESO is a video game, to understand human behavior, and use that understanding to make content that is enjoyable by as many people as possible, while not using that understanding to manipulate people and feed into addictions, FOMO, etc. I think ethics belong everywhere, even in games.

There's responsibility, of course. But, we're talking about a commercial enterprise here. To make sure, this is not supposed to be an accusation or such, just a simple fact: A company's main goal is revenue. A video game studio is no charity with the altruistic goal of getting players to broaden their horizon or gain more confidence. It's about getting people to spend money, and to be able to present nice stats with a high player or playtime count to the shareholders (and that's absolutely legit - as I said, it's a company, not a charity). And of course getting players into as much content as possible is the method for that. And of course this is achieved by trying to "encourage" funnel players into as many content types as possible.

Blood_again · January 15

Syldras wrote: »

So it's about people who lack curiosity? Well, the thing is that this "encouragement" becomes an annoyance for people who are curious by nature, have a lot of interests (more already than they ever would have time for), and know very well what they like and dislike.

Curiosity is not a flag true/false. It has its limited weight as a motivator. Behind the routines, visiting a particular place or trying a particular activity may just never happen. It may be postponed with always having no time or knowing what you really like (not that thing probably). Those are the patterns I've talked about.
It works in ESO the same way as in life.

Syldras wrote: »

I don't want people to shout at me that I should go swimming or playing golf or maybe stay at home and watch tv instead

You somehow have chosen an example of a harmful and intrusive way of "encouraging".

Imagine seeing a person, who is getting back from the top of the mountain and eating an orange.
I see them. I've never visited this mountain because, well, you know.
But the orange, hmm.
Well, actually, I have some apple trees in my garden... and I love apples and...
But, hmm, the orange.
That's how I feel about the encouragement implemented in ESO as endeavors or transmute rewards

If you take it as somebody shouting at you, there is probably something in that situation that sounds very loud for you.

peacenote · January 15

AzuraFan wrote: »

Newsflash: A lot of people have no interest in grouping. A lot of people have tried grouping and don't like it. Have some players grouped and discovered they like it? Sure. But a lot of players have zero interest in trying for whatever reason, and others who've tried it still don't like it. There are also players grouping right now who don't like it. They'll be happy to finally be able to stop grouping and get stuff done on their own.

I do think I specifically mentioned at least four kinds of people - people who know they only want to solo, people who know they only want to do group content, people who will sometimes pick one or the other, and people who aren't doing a certain kind of content (we happen to be talking about grouping in this thread, but it applies to other things) but might it if they gave it a shot, and may be hesitating for one reason or another.

I am trying to represent the third and fourth groups (especially the fourth group) in my perspectives (because I think they are not being considered enough in this discussion) but I thought it made it clear that I was very aware of the other two kinds of people and that true solo'ers are definitely not a newsflash to me.

Sorry if I wasn't.

I'm not saying all firm, intentional solo'ers are wrong or bad or problematic or that we should make them be groupers or that rewards should favor certain kinds of content or that certain kinds of content shouldn't give good rewards or that grouping is "better" than solo and deserves better rewards. I don't think I said ANY of that and, if it came off that way, again I apologize. In fact, for a long time the best, most advanced reward in the game came from a solo-only mode... maelstrom arena weapons. Running vMA solo, in an MMO, was the way to get the best gear for group content and "Flawless Conqueror" was the most respected title you could have.

I'm trying to explain that I think it is a good thing that different kinds of content in ESO give different kinds of rewards. I'm trying to say that this is true ALL OVER ESO, and I think ZOS should be consistent about this when they roll out solo dungeons. I don't expect to get tel var stones from a trial. I don't expect to farm trial gear from a fishing hole. So I'm really not sure why people are jumping straight to the "you must be holding an anti-solo'er sentiment" when the suggestion is that rewards should be different. I could kind of see them being the same rewards (maybe) if normal and vet dungeons dropped the same rewards, and if normal and vet trials dropped the same rewards... but they do not. If yet another "flavor" of a dungeon in addition to "normal, 1 - 4 players, scaled to a group" and "vet, 1 - 4 players, scaled to a group" is released, I should think that it, too, would have its own reward pool. I don't think I said it should necessarily be a lesser reward, but I did advocate that it is different than the other rewards from the other modes, so as not to detract from the value of running the other modes.

Something funny is that I HATED running vMA, because I prefer playing with friends. I HATED that if I wanted the best gear for grouped content, that I needed to run that arena, and it annoyed me when they didn't upgrade the farmed weapons to perfected during that whole saga when they were introduced. But it never once crossed my mind to come to the forums and argue that it wasn't fair that you could only get these weapons in a solo arena, and that ESO was an MMO so we should be able to get the reward in a grouped mode, and that I should be able to get those weapons in a different format more tailored to the way I liked to play. Because even though I didn't like running the arena, I knew that this was a special thing for people who liked to challenge themselves with solo content, and those weapons were a carrot for people to try the arena and spend time in it. AND I accepted that if I didn't want to do that, and if the content didn't grow on me and become more enjoyable, that I could just do without the weapons. There are, in fact, some that I still don't have, because it's just not really my thing.

Anyway, I see you around a lot on the forums and I enjoy your posts, and I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the concept of everyone being able to play how they want and get the exact reward they want doing it (if that's what you are advocating for, which I think you are) but I did want to be clear what I meant, and that what I was saying was that it is unfair to assume that all people who don't think solo dungeons should have identical rewards to their grouped mode are coming from a place of disparaging solo players or wanting to deny them good rewards or is assuming they are lazy or untalented... and that one of those players is me. :P More it's that I see that most game content has its own kind of rewards you can't get elsewhere, and it seems inconsistent and problematic, in my opinion, to break with that model for 4man dungeons ONLY, and have them be the only content in the game where you can get all of its rewards elsewhere. I think all content has to have some unique rewards in order to have some specialness and to attract people to try it, but the difficulty of the content or the form factor isn't really playing into that opinion. I believe that this should be so for everything.

Syldras · January 15

peacenote wrote: »

Not to mention that many people who play video games are introverts and are legitimately shy or nervous getting into group content.

And since I forgot this in my last reply: Introversion ≠ shyness. It's possible to be introverted and have no problems at all holding speeches or being on stage.

The only thing introversion actually means (if we go by the original definition by Carl Gustav Jung) is a small need for interaction, because interaction is energy-draining for introverted people. The opposite with extraversion: extraverted people gain energy from social interaction and also feel a stronger need for it.

Which is also a good explanation for why some people aren't interested in group play at all (of course not all of them, people have all different kinds of motivations): It's not fun for them, it's just energy-draining, and there's also no felt need for it.

SilverBride · January 15

Those that prefer to play solo have every right to do so. It's not a situation they need encouragement to change. People have the right to play how they want.

Syldras · January 15

Blood_again wrote: »

Curiosity is not a flag true/false. It has its limited weight as a motivator. Behind the routines, visiting a particular place or trying a particular activity may just never happen. It may be postponed with always having no time or knowing what you really like (not that thing probably). Those are the patterns I've talked about.
It works in ESO the same way as in life.

But why do these patterns have to be broken if someone already has enough to do with the things they already know they want? If I have only, say, 1 or 2 hours of playtime an evening, and I already have things I enjoy and want to do (even more than I'd ever have time for), why would I need to concentrate on something else instead? What exactly does that improve for me? What benefit do I have from that?

Blood_again wrote: »

You somehow have chosen an example of a harmful and intrusive way of "encouraging".
Imagine seeing a person, who is getting back from the top of the mountain and eating an orange.
I see them. I've never visited this mountain because, well, you know.
But the orange, hmm.
Well, actually, I have some apple trees in my garden... and I love apples and...
But, hmm, the orange.
That's how I feel about the encouragement implemented in ESO as endeavors or transmute rewards
If you take it as somebody shouting at you, there is probably something in that situation that sounds very loud for you.

Do people seem happy and encouraged in all those posts where they talk about being annoyed of having to do activity X (no matter if it's dungeons, ToT, questing or whatever) that they don't enjoy because they need to specific item or lead for something completely unrelated that they do need for their playstyle?

For me, the offer of different activities is just, well, them being in game. I can walk through the game world and look at things and locations, I can go through the UIs, I can check the achievement lists and look what's to do, that's completely sufficient for me. There's no need to wave with the proverbial carrot. Even less if this carrot is a lead for some item people need for something else, so it becomes a chore instead of some nice gift that can also be easily ignored.

ArchangelIsraphel · January 15

peacenote wrote: »

Not to mention that many people who play video games are introverts and are legitimately shy or nervous getting into group content. I absolutely was, in my first MMO, and to this day I'll still find certain groups or activities intimidating, or find I don't have the energy on a specific day to interact in a group chat scenario, even though generally speaking I enjoy group play. I never would have stepped a virtual foot into an MMO if a friend hadn't brought me in, with much encouragement. But I'm so glad they did.

I think it's actually a pretty big responsibility of the devs, yes though ESO is a video game, to understand human behavior, and use that understanding to make content that is enjoyable by as many people as possible, while not using that understanding to manipulate people and feed into addictions, FOMO, etc. I think ethics belong everywhere, even in games.

Hey peacenote! Happy to see you join in on the conversation. I remember you from the AWA thread way back in update 33. You brought some much needed perspective to those talks when it came to different play styles, and I see you doing the same thing now. I'm going to grab bits and pieces of various posts from you that I found interesting. Apologies in advance for any confusion!

So, first of all-I have to say that I do agree with you to a certain extent. Encouragement is a great thing when it comes from friends. My playstyle shifted drastically after AWA was implemented due to the friends I made in Cyrodiil at the time. I went from a solo/mostly roleplayer to also being a PVP/PVE endgame player because they liked me and wanted to teach me what they knew. I'm grateful for that experience and how their encouragement bolstered me.

But I think encouragement tends to hit differently when it comes from a company. Some might feel as though ZOS is treating them like children who must be coaxed into changing their natural habits, even though they already know what they like and want to do in game. Where as the encouragement of a friend comes from a place of positivity, having it come from a company can feel like they’re trying to mold you into their ideal customer rather than necessarily having your best interests in mind. I’m not sure it actually results in people really enjoying the content. Rather, they feel pushed one way, then another, as the company pulls them back and fourth between different types of content. It doesn’t really let the player settle into their own rhythm.

peacenote wrote: »

So I'm really not sure why people are jumping straight to the "you must be holding an anti-solo'er sentiment" when the suggestion is that rewards should be different. I could kind of see them being the same rewards (maybe) if normal and vet dungeons dropped the same rewards, and if normal and vet trials dropped the same rewards... but they do not. If yet another "flavor" of a dungeon in addition to "normal, 1 - 4 players, scaled to a group" and "vet, 1 - 4 players, scaled to a group" is released, I should think that it, too, would have its own reward pool. I don't think I said it should necessarily be a lesser reward, but I did advocate that it is different than the other rewards from the other modes, so as not to detract from the value of running the other modes.

I’m a bit confused by that too. While I’m advocating for solo content, and am pretty excited for it, I actually want the rewards to be different. I’m definitely not anti-solo at all. I just think it would be interesting to have something else to strive for along side the storymode. Maybe even separate kinds of gear that cater to solo play styles. (And separate cosmetics/achievements, of course.)

Even so I do understand why they want some of the rewards to be the same. I empathize completely with wanting to do the content themselves. Ultimately, I wouldn’t mind if they did get those rewards through solo content. I’d just like something new as a reward. But that’s only because I have access to both modes. I realize they don’t.

peacenote wrote: »

I did want to be clear what I meant, and that what I was saying was that it is unfair to assume that all people who don't think solo dungeons should have identical rewards to their grouped mode are coming from a place of disparaging solo players or wanting to deny them good rewards or is assuming they are lazy or untalented... and that one of those players is me. :P

Sorry about that, I think I’m partially responsible for that perspective spreading due to a prior post. I definitely wasn’t directing that at -all- of those players, just those that felt that there should be no rewards whatsoever. The idea that there should be no reward at all seemed to come from a place of disdain for players who like storymode content. I've always respected you for being an advocate for multiple play styles, and I know you don't think that way.

peacenote wrote: »

I like getting achievements. I like cosmetics. If people are going to be given an environment scaled to being alone, difficulty-wise, that's one thing. But if we aren't allowed to enter with friends, even though we can quest with friends in almost every other way, ESPECIALLY if the content isn't hard or scored like arenas... that will irritate me greatly. I will not enjoy being forced to do something solo that a) technically I've done already, tons of times and b) is not NECESSARY to do alone, just to obtain those rewards and achievements. Now, if the solo dungeons are some kind of scored, challenging solo bragging rights environment, then I'd understand that they are more like mini-arenas... but if they turn out to be that, I feel like ZOS will have completely missed the boat on their audience.

Back when these ideas were first being discussed, I was actually hoping for various scaled levels of difficulty if story mode ever existed. I wanted them to make something with a lower difficulty for those who liked playing through the quests, while offering a scored challenge mode for endgamers. Infinite Archive sort of scratched that itch for most, so I suppose it would be redundant at this point. Still, I think it would be interesting to see for trials. With a different reward pool/achievements, of course.

I’d actually like to be able to play through entire quest lines again in a sort of Veteran mode, but that’s a different conversation entirely.

I really, really like solo challenges, so I’m in an odd position where I’m all for the RP mode, but would also like a separate, harder mode for myself that still gives that RP experience. (I can solo a lot of content, but certain mechanics and pressure plates keep me from going further)