PTS Update 49 - Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Dragonknight

Drackolus · January 14

I've got a handful of gripes, but maybe the biggest is moving Fiery Grip/ Chains of Flame to Draconic Power instead of Searing Strike. It's completely nonsensical.
Things dragons are known for;
Clawing
Things dragons are not known for;
Magical chains

I also feel Searing Strike should be a more viable spammable with either morph, considering it's now got multiple animations that would make it cool as a spammable.

As a close second, I also really hate moving the whole class to flame damage. It makes no thematic sense - neither dragons, knights, nor the Akaviri are heavily associated with flame. Dragons in the Elder Scrolls do every kind of damage type. Earth magic is overwhelmingly associated with physical damage, and Earthen Heart only doing flame damage just makes it deliver on a concept already heavily covered elsewhere instead of what its name and a lot if its visuals and text suggests. As for Ardent Flame, making a tree solely focused on one damage type is fine... As long that damage type isn't so overrepresented already that the tree isn't even necessary to make a character completely focused on it with multiple skill line configurations that don't even include it. Plus, removing poison entirely makes any character that was made to focus on poison damage that chose Dragon Knight as its class would be totally invalidated - and since the class has been the only way to directly boost poison for the large majority of the game's history, that's probably almost all of them.
Overall, it's a huge sacrifice to variety for the sake of thematic consistency, except that it actually hurts that too.
Really, you should be able to choose a damage type for the entire Draconic Power line (default flame), and Earthen Heart skills should at least do physical if your stamina is higher and flame if your Magicka is higher. That would keep all previous concepts alive and allow even more to exist.

Oh yeah, and as much as I like the "Protect the Brood" concept... Dragons in this universe don't have broods. They don't come from eggs. You could maybe consider all dragons (besides probably Peryite) as Akatosh's "brood," but that is probably not accurate either. I also did not hatch my entire party from eggs that I laid at the same time, but a lot of skill names reference real things but aren't literal, like hearthfires. Unlike dragon broods in Tamriel. Well, unless they have something going on in Akavir, or Jills are real and actually can lay eggs and we just don't know about it, and all dragons being "Akatosh's children" isn't actually literal. Hmm.

(You teased me with the Luminary, Give Me Jill Lore! Please and thank you.)

Estin · January 14

I did some more parsing, this time with a different setup and also golded out gear. I was able to get consistently get 115k, and higher if I had better crits. This is done as a pure MagDK since I prefer staff over 2h. Here is my best full parse.

Didn't think about using warmask, but it's a much better mythic than velothi. Runecarver got gimped from the shorter timers, so I swapped it out for Pyrebrand and so a good increase in damage for just its proc, and it should also proc burning more than Runecarver. Pyrebrand could probably be swap it out for something that gives more crit chance.

The gameplay is still very busy, especially because of soul of flame, but I honestly prefer it over live MagDK because it's much more interactive. Live MagDK feels very slow in comparison now.

Overall, the damage is starting to look better, and someone better can push my same setup above 120k which means the class itself is starting to look like it can compete with the meta, but it's still a good ways behind the meta setup. NB, Arcanist, and Templar still need their adjustments before we can really say anything either, but I'm expecting some adjustments over the next few weeks to help make DK better. I also just hope the solution isn't to make low APM the answer to competing with beam after seeing engulfing parses, because that would just make every class a reskin of arcanist.

Hotdog_23 · January 14

Dragonknight Standard and his morphs should all be shifting. The group buff one should have the same radius as Warhorn @ 20meters not 8m.

Stay safe

MXVIIDREAM · January 14

not sure if the skill is bugged earth shield mantle (the damage shield morph) gives no visual shield I’ve just noticed

MXVIIDREAM · January 14

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

not sure if the skill is bugged earth shield mantle (the damage shield morph) gives no visual shield I’ve just noticed

Actually just realised this skill and the leap skill that gives a damage shield both have no visual shield
Also the new ward which is cool also has the damage shield disappear after a second is all this intentional, normally they hang around for duration 6s or until broken which is hugely helpful as a visual indicator that a lot of us feel is really helpful for visual cues and other personal reasons.

ZhuJiuyin · January 14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ctkiLBKTCw

This is my data from a 21M dummy using the new pure DK build.

I used Nirn and Null Arca, and Banner Bearer.

This build is geared towards Trials scenarios, therefore sacrificing some single-target skills, as most current Trials require significant aoe-damage. This build can reliably deal 120K ,and have large aoe-damage, this build also can provides the raid with damage buffs from Banner Bearer and Magma Fist.

I believe that while there are still some areas for improvement, ZOS has indeed successfully modernized the DK and given pure DK the ability to compete with subclass builds.

ecceau · January 14

Even though many people have probably already reported on parts of the following, we want to provide a comprehensive list regarding the ANIMATIONS alone, because they can be discussed orthogonally to the actual skill and passive changes. Nevertheless, the animations are an important part of the feel of how the game is played as a DK. Some of the new animations are great, but some are a big regression from what they were.

Summary: The biggest issues with the animations that we (and people we talked to) have identified are the wings, spiked armor, and new dragon blood animations.

Details:

We just list the names of the base skills, since the morphs only slightly deviate from them.

- Lava Whip visuals: great, audio: very unnatural/artificial (one of the best new animations with one of the worst new sounds)

- Searing Strike visuals: good, audio: not great (the old sound was super satisfying, it actually sounded like turning on a fire)

- Dragonfire Breath (old "Fiery Breath") visuals: good, audio: good

- Chains of Flame (old "Fiery Grip") visuals: good, audio: OK (sounds very similar to the new Whip, but here it fits better since you are throwing chains, so high pitch makes more sense)

- Inferno visuals: good, audio: good

- Earthspike Mantle (old "Spiked Armor") visuals: needs work, audio: needs work (everything about the old one was WAY better, very satisfying visuals on the character and a satisfying sound, the new one looks like a turtle and sounds like a low-quality carnival pistol or something)

- Dark Talons visuals: OK, audio: OK

- Dragon Blood visuals: needs work, audio: OK (A lot of people think the floating heart is a bug, but you were probably trying a new symbolic design with this skill and the wings/take flight, where you show a "symbol" of the skill next to the character rather than ON the character. This is straightly worse, since that kind of skill visualization has strong ties to MOBAs and similar games, with less visual fidelity than a full-blown MMO should have. Please go back to an animation closer to the old one.)

- Wing Buffet (old "Protective Scale") visuals: needs work, audio: OK (Same comment as for Dragon blood)

- Core of Flame (old "Inhale") visuals: OK, audio: good

- Superheated Ward (old "Stonefist") visuals: OK, audio: unnatural (This skill used to really feel earth-like from both the sound and animation. The new sound feels very artificial. Also, we noticed a small inconsistency here: the ward animation does not show up for the full duration of the shield, as would be the case with other shield abilities, even the new obsidian shield still has it. )

- Molten Weapons visuals: very good, audio: almost good (This has one of the coolest new visuals. The sound is a bit artificial, however, similarly Superheated Ward, but if the "lava"-type part of it would be tuned down, then it would be fantastic, since the rest of the sound matches really well how you use the ground to charge your weapon.)

- Obsidian Shield visuals: good, audio: good

- Petrify visuals: good, audio: good

- Hearthfire (old "Ash Cloud") visuals: Very good, audio: good

Ultimates:

- Dragonknight Standard visuals: good, audio: not great (The old sound was very satisfying, the new one sounds replaceable and too similar to the other new sounds.)

- Dragon Leap visuals: needs work, audio: very unnatural/artificial (Same visual issue as discussed above for Dragon Blood and Wing Buffet. The sound is very similar to Flame Lash, and thus also very artificial and feels out of place.)

- Magma Armor visuals: good, audio: OK

Suggestion: If the reason for the new wings and dragon blood animations are performance in pvp, then as a fix I would suggest to use the new symbolic animations as replacements of the tuned-down visuals (like currently, some skill visuals are tuned down dynamically if there is too much happening on the screen), but you should really consider reverting wings, dragon blood, and spiked armor to versions of the originals (maybe with some updated textures and colors).

FoJul · January 14

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Overall i was expecting a much better rework for the class that I've mained for too long that is healthy and a lot of these changes push me away from the class whose play style i used to enjoy. It leaves a bit sour taste in my mouth after the rework was so hyped and nothing really changed in the end aside from animations for PvP. The new engulfing flames might make some nasty acuity corossive build for tight areas, but dk is simply not the same for me without the whip.

If there was a room full of people who hated DK, I think that the changes that they would envision for the class would be pretty close to what we get with this "refresh."

Some of the final things left in the DK kit, like you mention Petrify, seems to be gettings dismantled once and for all. I doubt that I will Pure DK in PvP post update. What's left? Pyrebrand?

Shattering Rocks is crazy for combos tho. That is for PvP.

gentlemansr · January 14

I just tested the new DK on the PTS and have to say the new DK Breath is not what i hoped for when ZOS announced the class refresh. The answer to players complaining that arc beam is way to strong while having no draw backs can't be to introduce another beam skill with a 5 second channel. We had a very fun high apm combat before the arcanist went live. And now everyone is running around pressing one button every 5 seconds and just looking for skills and sets that buff the 5 scond channel the most. I really hope not all class refreshs end with the class now having a huge 5 second aoe channel but actually valueing high apm gameplay.

ssewallb14_ESO · January 14

I'm curious as to what Leap looks like in raids with enough ult gen to get really high uptime on the buff. Could potentially be a bit much but I have no way of testing.

noneatza · January 14

I don't know how many care about this since people mostly give feedback on the dd aspect, but as a longtime playerhere's my feedback:

Big effort has been put into the animations, its noticeable, good job.
The pairing of the skills into the skill lines is questionable at best, if the intent is to eventually not have dedicated skill lines for all the classes i can see it, but at the moment the lines are all jack of all trades & master of none, really weird.
But i do have one very important piece of feedback:
Helping hands rework is absolutely brutal, dk tanks have been regaining stam through using their igneous shield for many years, its an easy pathway into learning tanking, and theres moments when it comes in clutch even for experienced tanks. Removing that from helping hands removes one of the biggest reasons people enjoyed dk tank and vastly increases the difficulty of playing it and being as efficient as before.

In the words of a guildie "zos gave dk tanks a massive kick in the teeth with the helping hands rework", it does indeed feel like that

.

I've been around long enough to know that pts week1 big changes pretty much go live with very little modification or regards for feedback so im not holding ny breath for devs to hear this, but one can hope.

Faulgor · January 14

After some more testing and analyzing, I have some feedback for the visual aspect of the skill refreshes.

Two skills in particular warrant some discussion, Dragon Blood and Earthspike Mantle.

Dragon Blood has two components, the floating heart and the glowing chest.
The heart seems a bit tacky, to be honest. If it stays in, I would consider making it slightly transparent.
The glowing chest would ideally remain for the duration, although I'm unsure how it would interact with other effects.
Additionally, if the effect was left visible for longer, it would have to be punched up a bit, possibly by adding a glow on top of the texture.

Not ideal, but something to go on.

Earthspike Mantle has already caused some debate. Generally I like it, although the mileage may vary depending on what you wear underneath. On my fully armored knights it looked kinda good, whereas on characters that showed more skin, the shell-like structure seemed a bit jarring (get dressed, kids, combat is dangerous). I have also seen concerns that it doesn't produce a silhouette as strking as the old effect. I think a good compromise would be to increase the size significantly, so it covers the whole back, and possibly increase the glow closer to that of Molten Weapons.

Already a noticable difference.

Virtually all other effects are, by themselves, good to awesome!
However, there are three aspects that trouble me throughout the whole skill set.

a) Many skills have no visual difference between their morphs.

In some cases a visual difference between morphs isn't a huge concern (e.g. both Chains are differentiated by their immediate effect), but in others, it would add a lot.

Shifting Standard should have an effect in the whole area, to indicate it deals fire damage. Wall of Elements for example isn't just a rectangular outline, either.
Burning Embers would benefit from a visual indicator that it is healing with every tick - something like Structured Entropy.
Fire Keeper and Hearth and Home are identical. Not great, not terrible.
Disintegrating Dragonfire could stand out a bit more from the base skill.
One of the Dragon Blood morphs needs a little twist.

b) There are too many 'rings of fire' to indicate area size, with very little to differentiate them.

Dragonknight Standard (at least this one is visually distinct)
Core of Flame
Hearthfire
Inferno
Dragon Leap
Blood of the Elder Dragon
Dark Talons
Protect the Brood (stands out because it doesn't stand out)

These are all different skills! Look closely or you'll miss it.

This is too much. Too much of the same, specifically. Templar for example has a lot of ground effects and area indicators, but they are all different (compare Radial Sweep, Spear Shards, Solar Barrage, Cleansing Ritual, and Rune Focus).
The new DK skills by comparison are all very, very similar. Not only is this boring and uninteresting, it can also be confusing, e.g. when you don't immediately recognize if it was your Soul of Flame or your Incinerate that just went off.

There should at least be more difference in size, brightness, color, and saturation of the flames. Fire exists in many more forms than just bright hot orange! Maybe your idea is that with skill styles, players can customize these effects themselves to a degree, but that seems like a band-aid.

These are the three concrete changes I would suggest to improve readability of different effects, which would already be enough IMO. The ultimates don't really compete with each other, and the other skills are mostly momentary buff/support abilities.

Shifting Standard should have an effect in the whole area of effect, not just the circumference, as suggested under a).
Change Core of Flame to be more distinct from Inferno, either by keeping the Live version (see below) or increasing the smoke and reducing the flame effect.
Hearthfire should keep the old Ash Cloud effect in its area.

Draw Essence on the left used to have a more focused flame texture, while spreading out over the whole area of effect. The screen also lit up momentarily. Any of those would help to let it stand out.
The old Ash Cloud effect on the right with swirling smoke and sparks was subtle, yet enough to convey a unique area of effect.

c) Shields do not leave an effect for the duration.

Ferocious Leap
Magma Shell
Superheated Ward
Volcanic Ward
Earthshield Mantle

These skills apply a damage shield, but have no visual effect for the duration. That should be rectified.
As far as I can tell, only Superheated/Volcanic Ward and Ferocious Leap have a visual effect for the shield at all, but they expire immediately after cast.

tomofhyrule · January 14

I will agree with a lot of these, but in particular the following:

Faulgor wrote: »

b) There are too many 'rings of fire' to indicate area size, with very little to differentiate them.

Dragonknight Standard (at least this one is visually distinct)
Core of Flame
Hearthfire
Inferno
Dragon Leap
Blood of the Elder Dragon
Dark Talons
Protect the Brood (stands out because it doesn't stand out)

This would be nice to have some differentiation between these and other skills that now look very similar. One of the best things would be to add a full ground effect for those that do damage in the entire area as you suggested for the Standard morph.

As you say later, the old Ash Cloud effect with the smoke and some lava jets does make the area look dangerous. It'd be good to see something like that.

These are the three concrete changes I would suggest to improve readability of different effects, which would already be enough IMO. The ultimates don't really compete with each other, and the other skills are mostly momentary buff/support abilities.
Shifting Standard should have an effect in the whole area of effect, not just the circumference, as suggested under a).

Change Core of Flame to be more distinct from Inferno, either by keeping the Live version (see below) or increasing the smoke and reducing the flame effect.

Hearthfire should keep the old Ash Cloud effect in its area.

I just went and tested on Live myself, and I do have to say that the effects on Live for Inhale is far superior to the new ones on PTS.

Core of Flame/Inhale
I like how the Live version has a two-part effect, where you can actually see a 'beam of flame/energy' being pulled from the enemies to imply drawing their essence out, and then the explosion of flame afterwards. This is much more impactful in my mind

versus on PTS

Honestly, the more I play around with it, the more I prefer the old effects and functionality of Deep Breath. Extending the subsequent explosion to 4 seconds instead of 2.5 means that this skill is much less useful than it is on Live.

See images from Live with multiple enemies around

I could see this as one of those cases where both the old and new versions have a role. The new version is very good for sustain, but it loses that old feeling of drawing out the flames from enemies and releasing it in an explosion which looked and felt really cool

I'd like at least one of the morphs to basically stay as Deep Breath is on Live. Maybe change the base and other morph into something more like PTS where it restores resources, but Deep Breath felt very impactful on Live and now it just feels exactly like a single-cast new Inferno

Radiate77 · January 14

From over in the DK Spikes thread.

ZOS_Erin wrote: »

Thank you all for the detailed feedback regarding the refreshed visuals for the Dragonknight's Earthspike Mantle. We've heard your concerns and updated certain aspects of the design to better align with the Dragonknight's visual identity:

- The spikes have been elongated and curved outward to better express an aggressive stance
- The spikes are now larger and extend further down the back

There were certain changes that we could not make due to the nature of the model - specifically, we could not remove the baseplate from the spikes without requiring a full remodel and rework of the asset. The team is hard at work on our future refresh efforts, so we wanted to do our best to find a solid compromise with the Earthspike Mantle visuals that we could turn around quickly within the PTS window without delaying other work.

You can view the new changes coming to PTS 2 in this video: https://youtu.be/d6XYK-4uaFQ. The sound design for the ability is unchanged.

The team will continue to do our best to make adjustments to the Dragonknight's visuals within the PTS window based on player feedback without delaying other refresh efforts. We appreciate your continued feedback and patience as we work through the Combat Refresh.

LtClungeX · January 14

Hi, I don't come to the forums often, I'm a DK main, I've played on and off since console launch, on both pc and console I know the dk inside and out, the current changes to my main class are bitter sweet, there's some major issues and if it goes live as is, it would be a massive disappointment.

Typically I'm not a complainer and Its not all doom and gloom so ill start with the positives,

Positives

Visuals
fire breath looks incredible, searing strike talons and petrify look great.

Balance
the DOT changes were needed, every one in PVP runs purify or netch and the changes will add some much needed pressure, corrosive armour changes are good, inhale being on ardent flame is nice but expensive. Molten armament's awesome. expedition on wings was always needed is it 6 seconds? it should be 6 seconds.

Negatives

Visuals

Why is everything now a fire circle? the new flames of oblivion the new cinder storm, the new flame lash, the new talons and the new inhale and standard, as an opponent fighting a dk how will you even distinguish what the dk player has used? it's just a bunch of fiery rings

the new dk armour looks terrible, the new dragons blood looks terrible the old one was better. corrosive looks bugged atm so cant judge but probably should be green

Balance

Okay I'm most upset about this I've been having sinking feelings in my belly because of this if nothing changes I will leave, if devs read this I'm begging for this reconsideration

Fire breath moving to draconic power, wow please no.

First of all I'm losing fracture on my offensive skill line, with noxious,( warden has this both major and minor aoe,) which is a massive nerf, if subclassed, (you said you wanted skill lines to be more modular, this goes against the logic)

secondly how does it make sense to have the coolest looking fire spell not in the ardent FLAME skill line, fire claw and noxious breath go together mechanically please reconsider.

My suggestions

please read this.

I understand that you want to make fire breath synergize with leap and that's okay, lets think about this.
Draconic power is for healing and tanking, you have dragons blood, spiked armour, healing passives and armour passives, so why not put cinder storm (a heal) and dk standard (damage mitigation) on draconic power and move leap and fire breath to ardent flame, call ardent flame, dragon's fury /inferno/wrath or something for to fit the theme, this makes more sense for both PVE and PVP, leap has always been the offensive ultimate of choice for PVP, having standard with chains, talons and cinder storm for a tank in one skill line makes sense for PVE it would literally all synergize.

other gripes

Whip my changes to whip would read like this

Lava whip costs magicka, gain stacks of seething fury just like molten whip adds weapon and spell damage just like molten whip but you can gain 6 stacks so you get 2 power lashes but still only getting 300 weapon and spell damage at 3 stacks hitting and enemy with power lash adds magicka steal to the target. the second power lash must be used within 5 seconds before dropping off

molten whip costs stamina gain stacks of seething fury just like molten whip adds weapon and spell damage just like molten whip but you can gain 6 stacks so you get 2 power lashes but still only getting 300 weapon and spell damage at 3 stacks hitting and enemy whips power lash adds sundered to the target. the second power lash must be used within 5 seconds before dropping off

in other words it gets the spec bow treatment. or at least allow us to keep the 300 weapon and spell damage for 5 seconds after the whip, the damage falling off after whipping is awful.

It would be good if both dragons bloods gave minor intellect and endurance sustain is needed .

I would of liked to of seen a reduced cost in ardent flame abilities they just cost too much compared to other skill lines.

although the new fossilize looks good I liked the old instant one I'm assuming the change was made to hit dragon fire breath on players more easily,

Wing buffet? seriously I love hot wings but why not gale wings? tail wind? for the expedition version make all speed buff 6'seconds, race against time bow roll dodge passive, and reduce cost of retreating maneuverers, I know that's not dk feed back but please consider

Earthen heart makes no sense at all, what has earth got to do with dragons or knights? make it, knight themed call it Alessian Knight.

stone fist remove this skill, instead give us

Flames of Akatosh purify up to 3 negative effect gain one ultimate for each negative effect removed

morphs Fury/valor of Akatosh purify 3 negetive effect and gain 2 ultimate for each negetive effect removed
Blessings of Akatosh remove up to 4 negative effect from you and your group mates in a 12 meter radius no longer gives ultimate.

with a purify all of a sudden earthen heart becomes desirable.

Call corrosive and magma armour, armour of akatosh or Alessian armour, you have a good skin for it with the final fight from molag bal,

Please please consider my suggestions, I think and I'm sure others will think the same as I do.

Ps thankyou for tying new things and trying to improve the game.

I have to go to work now will update this later

all the best.
Luke.

Faulgor · January 14

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I just went and tested on Live myself, and I do have to say that the effects on Live for Inhale is far superior to the new ones on PTS.

Right? I was slightly shocked when I went to gather screenshots. Overall the new skill effects seem great, but when you actually compare new and old Inhale directly, it absolutely feels like a downgrade. It almost feels bare-bones, like they lost a few arrows in their visual quiver.

tomofhyrule · January 14

Faulgor wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I just went and tested on Live myself, and I do have to say that the effects on Live for Inhale is far superior to the new ones on PTS.

Right? I was slightly shocked when I went to gather screenshots. Overall the new skill effects seem great, but when you actually compare new and old Inhale directly, it absolutely feels like a downgrade. It almost feels bare-bones, like they lost a few arrows in their visual quiver.

Yeah, I did miss that in my initial look, which is kinda surprising since I do love it in my overland build on live. I guess I was just blinded by how cool new breath is lol.

But absolutely should at least the Deep Breath morph remain as it is on live. I can get behind the other morph being the "resource restore" morph that works as it does on PTS currently, but there is just something so impactful about seeing the enemies' essence being pulled in, stunning them if they're channelling, and then expelling all of that in a huge wave of fire.

Looking at those also is making me think that a lot of the fire effects they added are a bit too far in the red spectrum as well. The more yellow/orange fire we have on live looks a bit more realistic than that overly red color on PTS.

Juomuuri · January 14

I've seen some posts that claim this refresh will ruin pure DK tanks, how true is that? I only see parses here but I'd be more interested to learn about the tanking (and well, healing) side as well, like how is it affected?

BattleAxe · January 14

Juomuuri wrote: »

I've seen some posts that claim this refresh will ruin pure DK tanks, how true is that? I only see parses here but I'd be more interested to learn about the tanking (and well, healing) side as well, like how is it affected?

My first character I ever made was a dk tank haven’t been able to test changes as I don’t play on pc to access pts but based on changes I’ve read and seen I see promise in dk support roles not just tank but healer as well.

Radiate77 · January 14

Verdict is out. ~150k is the new standard.

https://youtu.be/jyIITawKu64?si=vFO2f0mZMZDeGjez

For these class reworks to be successful, we should not see original Classes or player Classes break past 150k, that is where the cap needs to be.

YandereGirlfriend · January 14

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I will agree with a lot of these, but in particular the following:

Faulgor wrote: »

b) There are too many 'rings of fire' to indicate area size, with very little to differentiate them.

Dragonknight Standard (at least this one is visually distinct)
Core of Flame
Hearthfire
Inferno
Dragon Leap
Blood of the Elder Dragon
Dark Talons
Protect the Brood (stands out because it doesn't stand out)

This would be nice to have some differentiation between these and other skills that now look very similar. One of the best things would be to add a full ground effect for those that do damage in the entire area as you suggested for the Standard morph.

As you say later, the old Ash Cloud effect with the smoke and some lava jets does make the area look dangerous. It'd be good to see something like that.

These are the three concrete changes I would suggest to improve readability of different effects, which would already be enough IMO. The ultimates don't really compete with each other, and the other skills are mostly momentary buff/support abilities.
Shifting Standard should have an effect in the whole area of effect, not just the circumference, as suggested under a).

Change Core of Flame to be more distinct from Inferno, either by keeping the Live version (see below) or increasing the smoke and reducing the flame effect.

Hearthfire should keep the old Ash Cloud effect in its area.

I just went and tested on Live myself, and I do have to say that the effects on Live for Inhale is far superior to the new ones on PTS.

Core of Flame/Inhale
I like how the Live version has a two-part effect, where you can actually see a 'beam of flame/energy' being pulled from the enemies to imply drawing their essence out, and then the explosion of flame afterwards. This is much more impactful in my mind

versus on PTS

Honestly, the more I play around with it, the more I prefer the old effects and functionality of Deep Breath. Extending the subsequent explosion to 4 seconds instead of 2.5 means that this skill is much less useful than it is on Live.

See images from Live with multiple enemies around

I could see this as one of those cases where both the old and new versions have a role. The new version is very good for sustain, but it loses that old feeling of drawing out the flames from enemies and releasing it in an explosion which looked and felt really cool

I'd like at least one of the morphs to basically stay as Deep Breath is on Live. Maybe change the base and other morph into something more like PTS where it restores resources, but Deep Breath felt very impactful on Live and now it just feels exactly like a single-cast new Inferno

Molten Core is actually my favorite change because now it's actually useful as a genuine delayed burst ability.

It was always hamstrung by the proviso that the first tick had to hit a target for the second hit to prime. There are tons of scenarios where that is impractical and completely scuttles the usefulness of the ability. The 4-second timer is also much easier to work with and to integrate into a damage combo.

I don't have much to say about the actual animation just that the mechanical change was infinitely for the better.

Personofsecrets · January 14

Juomuuri wrote: »

I've seen some posts that claim this refresh will ruin pure DK tanks, how true is that? I only see parses here but I'd be more interested to learn about the tanking (and well, healing) side as well, like how is it affected?

There isn't a reason to be thinking about pure class tanks imo, but taking your question in good faith, I have the following points.

- Having movement speed stolen from chains takes away utility. This was a great skill for moving around in a number of trials such as pushing Gryphon Heart.

- Having stam return on skill use robbed from us by the helping hands nerf is slap in the face to the DK tank style and identity.

- One of the few reasons to bring a DK tank to a raid, Stonefist has a diminished effect.

- If someone really wants to be a niche DK tank now, currently they can at least buff the groups fire damage with Engulfing Flames. That effect is being pilfered.

- Having the strong baseline effect of battle roar plundered from us is a loss in cases where one isnt slotting many dragonknigjht skills. That happens more than one may think since dragonknight skills are bad. And though some skills are improved, the above points show that skills are losing utility. This cadence of rotating an ultimate like horn with a potion use is the brick and mortar of DK identity and should have been respected for all DK users pure or sub-class.

- Minor brutality no longer procs from the spammable Igneous Shield. There isn't much point in slotting what has been a staple shielding skill now and especially when scribing shields are just better.

- Magma didnt get back the ability to genetate ultimate while under its effect. This is another previously useful skill in different trial situations that is staying in the trash. Apparently restoring DK greatness due to the sins of sub-classing isn't a priority.

- Even nich stuff like changing the timing of the inhale interrupt makes pure DK less good. This was a niche skill that felt super satisfying to use, based on predictive skills, because one could interrupt enemies the very moment that their channels began. Thus resulted in being so fast that one could see interrupts go off before the channeling indicators.

- DK tanks could even use a poison effect for extra resources. Again, this is just another niche thing, part of DK choice, taken away.

Chilly-McFreeze · January 14

Just saying I strongly dislike removing the poison playstyle from the class. That change leaves one of my favourite toons completely dead. Saw some posters saying that dragonknight should be about fire, as if fire dragons are the only dragon kind in TES. Also some of the new visuals feel like a downgrade.

Personofsecrets · January 14

Radiate77 wrote: »

Verdict is out. ~150k is the new standard.

https://youtu.be/jyIITawKu64?si=vFO2f0mZMZDeGjez

For these class reworks to be successful, we should not see original Classes or player Classes break past 150k, that is where the cap needs to be.

The other day your claim was 100k. What theory are you basing how high damage should be off of?

ecceau · January 14

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The other day your claim was 100k. What theory are you basing how high damage should be off of?

Arcanist subclassing builds can do 170-180k, so 150k, is fine! This is on the super high end, most people won't get the rotation and perfect skill use done like Hyperoxies.

Personofsecrets · January 14

ecceau wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The other day your claim was 100k. What theory are you basing how high damage should be off of?

Arcanist subclassing builds can do 170-180k, so 150k, is fine! This is on the super high end, most people won't get the rotation and perfect skill use done like Hyperoxies.

I don't DD and I personally don't care how high the damage numbers are in the game. That said, why is 150k fine for a class revamp if that number is obsolete, compared to what others do, out of the gate?

Again, if damage goes down, that's okay, but that isn't the lone context at work.

Twohothardware · January 14

The damage for the DK revamp has got to be there to really strike the right tone with class rebalancing. You can't have the new DK dealing 30K+ lower DPS than the Arcanist Beam subclassing build that everyone has been running since last year.

GloatingSwine · January 14

Personofsecrets wrote: »

- Having the strong baseline effect of battle roar plundered from us is a loss in cases where one isnt slotting many dragonknight skills. That happens more than one may think since dragonknight skills are bad. And though some skills are improved, the above points show that skills are losing utility. This cadence of rotating an ultimate like horn with a potion use is the brick and mortar of DK identity and should have been respected for all DK users pure or sub-class.

It's not just "Dragonknight skills are bad" for tanking. Tanking is about tools and utility and irrespective of what class you are and what skill lines you use you get a significant amount of those from guild, weapon, and scribed skills.

I'm fully subclassed and still half of my skills don't come from a class line at all.

Personofsecrets · January 14

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

- Having the strong baseline effect of battle roar plundered from us is a loss in cases where one isnt slotting many dragonknight skills. That happens more than one may think since dragonknight skills are bad. And though some skills are improved, the above points show that skills are losing utility. This cadence of rotating an ultimate like horn with a potion use is the brick and mortar of DK identity and should have been respected for all DK users pure or sub-class.

It's not just "Dragonknight skills are bad" for tanking. Tanking is about tools and utility and irrespective of what class you are and what skill lines you use you get a significant amount of those from guild, weapon, and scribed skills.

I'm fully subclassed and still half of my skills don't come from a class line at all.

I agree with you. The reason that DK skills are bad is because they don't provide the same raw power or utility as skills found elsewhere.

It's really something to be reading through Arcanist and how obviously pushed the tank line is. All of the DK skills useful for tanking could be part of a single line and still underperform compared to what Arcanist does. And yes, scribing has impacted the usefullness of DK too.

DK has the disadvantage of not being a pushed FOMO game piece needed to sell an update.

tomofhyrule · January 14

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I will agree with a lot of these, but in particular the following:

Faulgor wrote: »

b) There are too many 'rings of fire' to indicate area size, with very little to differentiate them.

Dragonknight Standard (at least this one is visually distinct)
Core of Flame
Hearthfire
Inferno
Dragon Leap
Blood of the Elder Dragon
Dark Talons
Protect the Brood (stands out because it doesn't stand out)

This would be nice to have some differentiation between these and other skills that now look very similar. One of the best things would be to add a full ground effect for those that do damage in the entire area as you suggested for the Standard morph.

As you say later, the old Ash Cloud effect with the smoke and some lava jets does make the area look dangerous. It'd be good to see something like that.

These are the three concrete changes I would suggest to improve readability of different effects, which would already be enough IMO. The ultimates don't really compete with each other, and the other skills are mostly momentary buff/support abilities.
Shifting Standard should have an effect in the whole area of effect, not just the circumference, as suggested under a).

Change Core of Flame to be more distinct from Inferno, either by keeping the Live version (see below) or increasing the smoke and reducing the flame effect.

Hearthfire should keep the old Ash Cloud effect in its area.

I just went and tested on Live myself, and I do have to say that the effects on Live for Inhale is far superior to the new ones on PTS.

Core of Flame/Inhale
I like how the Live version has a two-part effect, where you can actually see a 'beam of flame/energy' being pulled from the enemies to imply drawing their essence out, and then the explosion of flame afterwards. This is much more impactful in my mind

versus on PTS

Honestly, the more I play around with it, the more I prefer the old effects and functionality of Deep Breath. Extending the subsequent explosion to 4 seconds instead of 2.5 means that this skill is much less useful than it is on Live.

See images from Live with multiple enemies around

I could see this as one of those cases where both the old and new versions have a role. The new version is very good for sustain, but it loses that old feeling of drawing out the flames from enemies and releasing it in an explosion which looked and felt really cool

I'd like at least one of the morphs to basically stay as Deep Breath is on Live. Maybe change the base and other morph into something more like PTS where it restores resources, but Deep Breath felt very impactful on Live and now it just feels exactly like a single-cast new Inferno

Molten Core is actually my favorite change because now it's actually useful as a genuine delayed burst ability.

It was always hamstrung by the proviso that the first tick had to hit a target for the second hit to prime. There are tons of scenarios where that is impractical and completely scuttles the usefulness of the ability. The 4-second timer is also much easier to work with and to integrate into a damage combo.

I don't have much to say about the actual animation just that the mechanical change was infinitely for the better.

This is why I say it's a case where the old use is good for one morph, while the new use is good for the other morph.

DK being built around sustain issues having a skill that gives a lot of resources back with a long-lead burst without needing to hit someone first is very useful in PvP. However, the old version of being able to interrupt several adds around you instantly and heal from that is also very useful in niche PvE situations.

The old version of Inhale (Draw Essence) didn't really get much use iirc, and Deep Breath did have those niche uses. The new version again has both morphs very similar to each other, and even overlapping a lot with new Inferno as a radial delayed AoE burst.

If they kept Deep Breath as it is on live for one morph, and then used the new version with the sustain for the other morph, that seems like it would hit both use cases, and also give players a reason to take one morph over the other instead of having a 'dead' morph like most skills tend to get when one is objectively better than the other.

I do hope a lot of skills during these reworks end up changing to something where the two morphs are pretty significantly different so there would be reason to choose either one. Again, I'll go back to the fact that the DoT morph of Eruption was removed and now both morphs are HoTs, when the fact that it originally had a damage morph and a heal morph made both useful in different circumstances.