StihlReign wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Disagreeing with Steam data being an accurate representation of the population is not having our heads in the sand. It's a minority that use Steam and that does not necessarily translate to the population in general.

It doesn't matter if you disagree on this because even investors use steam data to validate before investing.

Do you wanna explain to those investors that they are all wrong?

Even if you decide for yourself to not belive in this... It's the truth.

What investors? Where has the reaction of these investors been posted?

Some of us post in this forum.

Where is it documented that investors use Steam data?

SilverBride wrote: »

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

It's the exact same people with their heads in the sand any time Steam data is presented. They make the most ridiculous statements to try and discredit the only available data that shows population trends. Reality is that the game's population is declining, and it is not because of the Epic launcher or any other asinine reason someone wants to put out there. The population is declining because the quality of the game and the amount of content is declining.

Disagreeing with Steam data being an accurate representation of the population is not having our heads in the sand. It's a minority that use Steam and that does not necessarily translate to the population in general.

These threads have come up routinely for years now, but we are still here. Unless ZoS (who are the only ones with accurate data) comes forward and states there is a problem I am not going to worry about it.

I think a lot of people are misreading the argument.

People who disagree with Steam data are focusing on actual numbers. They see people post things like "Steam has 10k users" and - correctly - state that more than 10k people are playing ESO, since Steam counts do not take into account anyone who plays on the Launcher, Epic, or on console.

People who agree with Steam data are focusing on trends. They aren't saying "look how many people are currently playing ESO," they're looking at "look at the change in population over time."

While it is true that people can play ESO via many different storefronts, nobody has ever presented evidence that the playerbase who uses Steam will act vastly differently than players who use a different storefront. Therefore, a change in the Steam numbers could be representative of changes in all numbers. It's not going to be exact, but it is highly unlikely that one storefront's playerbase would show drastically different trends to other storefronts. Anyone who wants to disprove SteamCharts as being representative should work to prove why the players on Steam would act so differently than others.

If SteamCharts is showing a drop in players of X%, it flows logically that the Epic store probably dropped by X%, the Launcher base probably dropped by X%, and console dropped by X%, unless the suggestion is that the players using any of those storefronts act completely differently to other storefronts. This is also why opinion polling, e.g. political polls, can get general ideas - not exact numbers - but general ideas by sampling only a subset of the population.

Of course, to truly get a feel for things, we'd have to look at more information. Players can also see things like the number of people streaming the game, the amount of content being created by content creators, the number of players active in various guilds, etc. Those are all pieces of information players have access to.
And let's face it: all of those data points are showing the number of players are trending in the same direction. Most of the StreamTeam is now maining other games. Very few people are still making content for ESO. Endgame (both PvP and PvE) are stagnating with the same people being passed around, and they're watching more quit every month.

Ignoring any of those data points by saying "but but but not everyone uses Steam!" or "but but but not everyone watches streamers!" or "but but but not everyone is in guilds!" or "but but but I prefer playing solo!" is putting your head in the sand. I get it, it is not a happy feeling to be told your favorite game is not doing well, and most people really and truly wish ESO was knocking it out of the park every update. A lot of people are also scared since ESO is a live-service MMO, so when Microsoft decides it's unprofitable (or decides to take the Amazon route and just pull out of gaming altogether), then ESO will be deleted from the internet and we'll never be able to play it again - this is more similar to Legends than Skyrim.

Nobody on these forums wants ESO to die. But the more people who are sticking their fingers in their ears and saying "I'm right, I can't hear you," then the more likely that these trends will continue going in the direction they are going in.

Same o, Same O
Never understand the point of this.
Game is great to me, maybe because I enjoy playing the game, not spending time trying to find things wrong with the game.

StackonClown wrote: »

PC/NA - About 2 years ago i used to get kicked out of a trading guild within a week if i didnt post minimum sales.
Now, i hardly sell anything and all those same guilds have left me there and a lot are 300-400 members whereas 2 years ago they were all 490-500 members permanently.

To me this is a good indiciator

But that isn't everyone's experience. I've been in the same guild for over 3 years now that is part of a group of 3 sister trading guilds with memberships that have remained relatively constant.

Sometimes guilds just run their course.

loosej wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

It's the exact same people with their heads in the sand any time Steam data is presented. They make the most ridiculous statements to try and discredit the only available data that shows population trends. Reality is that the game's population is declining, and it is not because of the Epic launcher or any other asinine reason someone wants to put out there. The population is declining because the quality of the game and the amount of content is declining.

Disagreeing with Steam data being an accurate representation of the population is not having our heads in the sand. It's a minority that use Steam and that does not necessarily translate to the population in general.

These threads have come up routinely for years now, but we are still here. Unless ZoS (who are the only ones with accurate data) comes forward and states there is a problem I am not going to worry about it.

Could you share a source for that statement? If not, it's just an opinion and I'm not going to worry about it.

I feel that it is just an opinion that Steam charts are an accurate indicator of the health of ESO.

SilverBride wrote: »

Where is it documented that investors use Steam data?

Just look up the disastrous cyperpunk launch and how steam reviews affected CD Projects shares to drop and how investors pulled out.

The importance for steam data was even brought up to court, when investors sued CD Project over this.

Or just look up about Frostpunk 2 developers 11bit studios shares dropped after the game didn't met investors expectations about steam sales and longevity.

Sure I can post links to back up what I said.. But I don't wanna get in trouble with mods for posting links in the end and I am very confident about you being able to research this on your own as I did.

Investors are companies that invest in other gaming studios. Those investors can be Morgan Stanley or Goldman Sachs for example.
Publishers like Tencent or Embracer Group and Microsoft also invest in game studios and can be seen as investors.

Do you want me to go on and research about every single data analysis and marketing companies that you probably never heard about too and which also use steam data?

I answered you question and I would like you to answer mine now: are you really wanna go out telling them they are all in the wrong for using steam data?

I assume that's gonna be really amusing for me and everyone else.

As I said: You were presented facts. If you believe it or don't believe it doesn't really matter anyway cause you can't deny reality... I mean sure you can deny reality for yourself, but it's still gonna be reality and it would just shine a light on what kind of person you are.

SilverBride wrote: »

loosej wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

It's the exact same people with their heads in the sand any time Steam data is presented. They make the most ridiculous statements to try and discredit the only available data that shows population trends. Reality is that the game's population is declining, and it is not because of the Epic launcher or any other asinine reason someone wants to put out there. The population is declining because the quality of the game and the amount of content is declining.

Disagreeing with Steam data being an accurate representation of the population is not having our heads in the sand. It's a minority that use Steam and that does not necessarily translate to the population in general.

These threads have come up routinely for years now, but we are still here. Unless ZoS (who are the only ones with accurate data) comes forward and states there is a problem I am not going to worry about it.

Could you share a source for that statement? If not, it's just an opinion and I'm not going to worry about it.

I feel that it is just an opinion that Steam charts are an accurate indicator of the health of ESO.

And i disagree. Sticking the head in the sand fits well here

SilverBride wrote: »

I feel that it is just an opinion that Steam charts are an accurate indicator of the health of ESO.

I feel that your feelings might be wrong about this.

Xarc wrote: »

Okay, back in 2017 not everyone was using Steam;

But we don't need graphs to see that the player base is declining. As someone mentioned earlier, you only have to look at your friends list or your guilds...

Exactly
I played during one month on october
100 friends (and full cp 1200+, so not casual players) , max online was 5 lol
Yesterday evening = 0/100 online
But some people have been in denial and want us to believe that the game is still at its peak. You can present them with all the arguments in the world, they will continue to deny it. It's a bit like debatting with flat-earthers.

SilverBride wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

While im sure i will have people like ''noo there are plenty of people still playing'' - yes there are still people but overall the population on ALL servers is low and specially on PC...

Everything I've ever read indicates that PC has the highest population of the servers. An 11 year old game is going to see some decline in population. Players and guilds will come and go. It's the nature of MMOs

Sigh

The discussion is about how a lot of the leaving is not due to wear and tear of the game over time, but rather due to the decision making of ZOS. Your statement is obvious - of course people will leave. But look at WoW 20 years later with a huge playerbase. Age isn’t everything. Who’s steering the ship is the most important and we have a captain with blindfolds on so it seems

SilverBride wrote: »

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

It's the exact same people with their heads in the sand any time Steam data is presented. They make the most ridiculous statements to try and discredit the only available data that shows population trends. Reality is that the game's population is declining, and it is not because of the Epic launcher or any other asinine reason someone wants to put out there. The population is declining because the quality of the game and the amount of content is declining.

Disagreeing with Steam data being an accurate representation of the population is not having our heads in the sand. It's a minority that use Steam and that does not necessarily translate to the population in general.

These threads have come up routinely for years now, but we are still here. Unless ZoS (who are the only ones with accurate data) comes forward and states there is a problem I am not going to worry about it.

Another baffling statement. I appreciate your positivity, but to say that a LARGE sample size is not indicative of population dynamics at whole is silly. What variables change between a player on steam vs epic vs the launcher? Solo players are on all 3 as are PvP players, housing mains, etc. It’s a sample size. I swear you people need to read up on statistics. It’s very likely that this is happening across all platforms including console with some being hit harder than others.

lostineternity wrote: »

Horace-Wimp wrote: »

Not everyone plays ESO through Steam.

No way!

Of course steam doesn't show online count of the game on all platforms. Even kids understand this.
But what it shows is trends. It's logical to assume if one platform loses online so that others.

You don't want to tell me that while Steam online is shrinking at the same time console online is growing?

Exact this.

Most people I know or knew were playing via launcher. And they left.

Steam ist still a good indicator for people leaving.

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

I think they should drop the content pass idea, go back to chapters and reintroduce the last missing areas of Skyrim. This would make sense for 2026 as it's the 15th anniversary of that game. If they do all this, I would expect to see a resurgence in numbers, at least briefly, and if the content is good, they would help retention into 2027.

THIS! And they have to bring some order in this jungle. I played with a friend and returner (god bless) the last 2 days and he did not know what to buy, etc. In the last years this was also a big topic in guilds I was a member. No one knew what exactly included what and so on.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

So what are the players going to do about this situation? If you have friends who haven't tried ESO or haven't played it in a while, it would be a really good idea to invite them to play with you.

Trying to bring people into the game when it's in a bad state isn't going to help the game. It's just going to alienate potential players against it. Also, how is it the player's responsibility to fix the game? All we can do is vote with our time and our money. What you're suggesting solves nothing.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

PC/NA - About 2 years ago i used to get kicked out of a trading guild within a week if i didnt post minimum sales.
Now, i hardly sell anything and all those same guilds have left me there and a lot are 300-400 members whereas 2 years ago they were all 490-500 members permanently.

To me this is a good indiciator

But that isn't everyone's experience. I've been in the same guild for over 3 years now that is part of a group of 3 sister trading guilds with memberships that have remained relatively constant.

Sometimes guilds just run their course.

Certainly. It is also possible that your maybe in a top trading guild with members who have deep enough pockets to get them through the bad times?
One thing though, have you noticed more people from your first guild also in your second guild too?

I'm only in one of the guilds. Some of our members may be in 2 or all 3, such as our GMs, but that isn't the norm. Most just choose one because they all have different requirements. One is for casual selling, one for moderate selling, and one for the more top sellers.