Heronisan wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Heronisan wrote: »

Im gonna need to see recordings of these common performance issues in PvE, in dungeons and trials.

I have 1847 veteran dungeons completed on xbox series X, not 1 single time have my fps ever dropped on performance mode. It runs flawless every dungeon i play. Skills fire when they should. Nothing

That’s Awesome!

Only if they could mimic your performance for the rest of us, which I think Vengeance ruleset could do!

No, an xbox series X put on performance mode would do that.

There is no reason it shouldnt work for anyone else since its the exact same hardware.

I understand the point u are trying to make, but claiming dungeons have widespread performance issues is so untrue it sort of ruins ur point. I cant remember seeing much in trials either, i have alot of friends with the latest trial trifectas, and i have never heard them say their runs have been ruined by performance here on console.

But what do u want zos to do? They straight out said the cant fix cyrodiil performance on live, its not gonna happen, are u against their suggestion of having 1 vengeance campaign and a smaller scale cyrodiil? How is this not the best of 2 worlds?

Again, there are pages of people in here saying they experience lag in PvE. Again, that’s Awesome(!) that you don’t.

I don’t need to answer that question as it has nothing to do with this topic, which is how badly we need Vengeance PvE to help with performance.

SneaK wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Melivar wrote: »

There are no real PVE performance issues in 4 or 12 player instanced content that are game related. Mostly those would be addon or hardware related issues.

While these same things are also a hinderance in PVP it is a much wider issue overall in Cyro.

Case in point I never had any issues with instanced PVE but did have several issues with overland PVE and all PVP on an older laptop. When it died and I upgraded I still had no issues in instanced PVE or overland PVE and much less in PVP outside of larger scale battles.

Now i have a failing hard drive and the Overland PVE and PVP issues are back again but still have had no real issues in instanced PVE. I know it is a hardware issue and not an internet or addon issue because if I log into my stream deck I am back to just having problems in PVP related content only and yes I have all the same addon for the steam deck.

For everyone sake I hope that the stick to having both Gray Host and Vengeance as play options and they continue to work on balancing things for the Gray Host campaign.

I lag always in trials and dungeons tbf. Whenever all the beams are going off.

There is a difference between system lag and server lag. But this whole thread is bait and we know it.

I don't think it's bait. Performance in trails and vet dungeons is on par with Cyrodiil. Same problems for the same reasons. So why not the same fix?

It is bait (albeit a careful one). If you look at when this thread was posted (exactly when they announced options 1 and 2 for Cyrodill), read the general tone of the supporting posts, and read the most recent posts of the supporting players (none of them want Vengeance in PvP), it kind of becomes obvious (regardless of the performance problems people are experiencing in high end PvE).

Any thoughts about Cyrodiil balancing are irrelevant in here, not what we’re talking about. Vengeance ruleset is the foretold performance enhancer of ESO, it needs to be brought to PvE where many many people have issues with said performance.

Please show me where I talk about balancing in my post. I pointed out that every supporter in this thread is vehemently opposing Vengeance (regardless of what the goals of the developers are) in PvP. Yet, they would welcome Vengeance in PvE with open arms. It feels like someone is seeking a bit of schadenfreude.

But SneaK you have stated in other threads before that you dont like the vengeance rule set for PVP - so why are you so for it for PVE??

And I'm the other way around - I have only seen major issues in PVP but put up with them for a while but ultimately i had to stop running with my PVP guild because it just wasn't enjoyable anymore.

Have I experienced other bugs like those caused by animation changes? Yes, but lag and disconnects have not been an issue for me, and I run trials most nights. And I'm not running on some super rig - it's a 10th-gen Intel laptop. I find PVE performance far exceeds that of PVP.

Maybe it's different servers, different populations etc etc

But like you, the reason I dont see the need for the ruleset in PVE is that's not where I have experienced the performance issues.

I'm on a PS5 running in performance mode.
I have no opinion on Vengeance. I don't PvP.

I don't want Vengeance rules in PvE, but I think doing something similar in PvE as a TEST ONLY has some merit.

It blow my mind people are saying PvE doesn't have performance issues.

ZOS, Massive Spike in Ping/LAG in Recent Days - What Gives? is 128 pages long.

On a PS5 on Performance, I've been in multiple trials where the entire group has lagged out at the same time, resulting in wipes. I've been in multiple trials where multiple people disconnect, sometimes all at once (could be network), sometimes one every minute or three, but so badly we never have 12 people in the trial at the same time. Some times it's the same people over and over (could be local hardware), but mostly it's random, and everyone experiences it at least twice.
I've had multiple progs cancelled because of performance issues.

And I've stopped running trials, mainly due to performance issues.

I've abandoned many dungeon runs because performance is so bad we can't continue. I do still run dungeons, but only with one group for two hours once a week.

allochthons wrote: »

I'm on a PS5 running in performance mode.
I have no opinion on Vengeance. I don't PvP.

I don't want Vengeance rules in PvE, but I think doing something similar in PvE as a TEST ONLY has some merit.

It blow my mind people are saying PvE doesn't have performance issues.

ZOS, Massive Spike in Ping/LAG in Recent Days - What Gives? is 128 pages long.

On a PS5 on Performance, I've been in multiple trials where the entire group has lagged out at the same time, resulting in wipes. I've been in multiple trials where multiple people disconnect, sometimes all at once (could be network), sometimes one every minute or three, but so badly we never have 12 people in the trial at the same time. Some times it's the same people over and over (could be local hardware), but mostly it's random, and everyone experiences it at least twice.
I've had multiple progs cancelled because of performance issues.

And I've stopped running trials, mainly due to performance issues.

I've abandoned many dungeon runs because performance is so bad we can't continue. I do still run dungeons, but only with one group for two hours once a week.

Well said, and thank you for highlighting that thread. The denial of performance issues in PvE is complete nonsense, and it's absurd that so many are against a simple test. What's a week or two of altered mechanics here and there if it helps improve performance overall in the long term?

Orbital78 wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm on a PS5 running in performance mode.
I have no opinion on Vengeance. I don't PvP.

I don't want Vengeance rules in PvE, but I think doing something similar in PvE as a TEST ONLY has some merit.

It blow my mind people are saying PvE doesn't have performance issues.

ZOS, Massive Spike in Ping/LAG in Recent Days - What Gives? is 128 pages long.

On a PS5 on Performance, I've been in multiple trials where the entire group has lagged out at the same time, resulting in wipes. I've been in multiple trials where multiple people disconnect, sometimes all at once (could be network), sometimes one every minute or three, but so badly we never have 12 people in the trial at the same time. Some times it's the same people over and over (could be local hardware), but mostly it's random, and everyone experiences it at least twice.
I've had multiple progs cancelled because of performance issues.

And I've stopped running trials, mainly due to performance issues.

I've abandoned many dungeon runs because performance is so bad we can't continue. I do still run dungeons, but only with one group for two hours once a week.

Well said, and thank you for highlighting that thread. The denial of performance issues in PvE is complete nonsense, and it's absurd that so many are against a simple test. What's a week or two of altered mechanics here and there if it helps improve performance overall in the long term?

My lens of PVE is specific to PC-NA, TBH I don't care if they wanna look into performance but I have zero issues most of the time. I think it would be a waste of manpower/resources to do so unless there is enough REAL evidence that there are widespread issues and it is on ZoS' side.

I have done a fair bit of trials and dungeons over the years. ~3 years almost every Wednesday, Saturday, and Sunday I was doing the weekly trial and then two runs of the most recent trial of the year. All of my stickerbooks are filled in, and I have ran into server lag maybe a dozen times in those 3+ years if that.

I could see consoles and older systems having issues, especially if you turn settings way up. But then again as mentioned before, there is a difference between system lag and server side issues. The only times I have server issues is in Cyrodiil primetime and the rare odd global server issues, unless my ISP is having issues with routing somewhere. I also find it nearly impossible to join Cyrodiil on Greyhost during primetime because there is a hour wait time, which leads me to just not bother.

Saying 128 pages in one newish thread complaining about these issues (in addition to the plentiful other threads, commentary in guild discords, etc) isn't enough "real evidence", then offering your own personal individual experience like THAT counts is... something.

GFY and your experiences! Enjoy the game!

SolarRune wrote: »

Could the different experiences be due to being on other servers? I run on PCEU.

Maybe console performace is different to PC, in which case these two shouldn't be compared and we should be flagging the consistencies between peoples experience to help ZoS accurately troubleshoot the issues, rather than just muddying the waters.

But Vengeance 100% fixed lag on all platforms in PvP, all platforms need Vengeance to do the same for PvE.

Orbital78 wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm on a PS5 running in performance mode.
I have no opinion on Vengeance. I don't PvP.

I don't want Vengeance rules in PvE, but I think doing something similar in PvE as a TEST ONLY has some merit.

It blow my mind people are saying PvE doesn't have performance issues.

ZOS, Massive Spike in Ping/LAG in Recent Days - What Gives? is 128 pages long.

On a PS5 on Performance, I've been in multiple trials where the entire group has lagged out at the same time, resulting in wipes. I've been in multiple trials where multiple people disconnect, sometimes all at once (could be network), sometimes one every minute or three, but so badly we never have 12 people in the trial at the same time. Some times it's the same people over and over (could be local hardware), but mostly it's random, and everyone experiences it at least twice.
I've had multiple progs cancelled because of performance issues.

And I've stopped running trials, mainly due to performance issues.

I've abandoned many dungeon runs because performance is so bad we can't continue. I do still run dungeons, but only with one group for two hours once a week.

Well said, and thank you for highlighting that thread. The denial of performance issues in PvE is complete nonsense, and it's absurd that so many are against a simple test. What's a week or two of altered mechanics here and there if it helps improve performance overall in the long term?

My lens of PVE is specific to PC-NA, TBH I don't care if they wanna look into performance but I have zero issues most of the time. I think it would be a waste of manpower/resources to do so unless there is enough REAL evidence that there are widespread issues and it is on ZoS' side.

I have done a fair bit of trials and dungeons over the years. ~3 years almost every Wednesday, Saturday, and Sunday I was doing the weekly trial and then two runs of the most recent trial of the year. All of my stickerbooks are filled in, and I have ran into server lag maybe a dozen times in those 3+ years if that.

I could see consoles and older systems having issues, especially if you turn settings way up. But then again as mentioned before, there is a difference between system lag and server side issues. The only times I have server issues is in Cyrodiil primetime and the rare odd global server issues, unless my ISP is having issues with routing somewhere. I also find it nearly impossible to join Cyrodiil on Greyhost during primetime because there is a hour wait time, which leads me to just not bother.

Here we go with the resumes again.

People lag everywhere good gracious.

Vengeance is coming boys and girls.

SneaK wrote: »

SolarRune wrote: »

But like you, the reason I dont see the need for the ruleset in PVE is that's not where I have experienced the performance issues.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

If vengeance is the solution for performance issues in PvP then it absolutely should be the solution for performance in trials and vet dungeons.

Besides, no reason to even have sets when everything is templated. So may as well make the whole game templated.

After 11 years, maybe raising the minimum system requirements to reflect all the additional content added during that time, and perhaps auditing the spaghetti code (not a criticism, it's going to happen).

Removing choice, options and dumbing the game down isn't the way forward, IMO.

However, they’ve already committed to the latter, so if that is in fact the solution then it should be made available game wide.

A lot of people here saying "I don't lag" aren't actually getting it. Nobody is talking about Client side lag, we're talking about server side lag - the kind that kicks you out of the game, causes huge sync pauses mid battle, tosses a coin on whether your skill fired or not.

I've experienced all of the above, and I have a fairly modern PC that can meet or exceed 60FPS in even the zergyest of Cyro battles, but none of that matters if the server can't keep up with the sheer amount of calculus the game asks of the server every frame. - This is the kind of lag ZOS is trying to address with the Vengeance test, it's got nothing to do with how squishy your high power desk potato is.

The lag issues in Cyro are due to a lot of players using complicated abilities all in the same area. This can absolutely be an issue in PvE areas too! But, in PvE, this is dealt with by splitting each zone into multiple instances, so not everyone is in the same version of e.g. Auridon. This way the maximum number of players gathered in any particular area can be kept under control and performance issues can be mostly curtailed. As an aside, this can go wrong: I'm pretty sure that more Solstice instances were added during the event but not removed until maintenance earlier this week. Between the event ending and that maintenance, the fellowship camps were *completely* dead- I ended up soloing them more than once. Once, I and another player (rando, not someone I was grouped with) were struggling, so I swapped to my more powerful solo toon, but then I wasn't in the same instance anymore! I had to port to three different guildies before I got back to the right instance to help out the guy I had ditched. Post the maintenance, there's at least a handful of people at each camp I go to. <end aside>

This approach of splitting instances doesn't work in Cyro because the minimum number of players needed for Cyro to not be dead is still too large for any significant battle to not have performance issues with the normal rulesets. ZOS could take a top-down or a bottom-up approach to solving this: iteratively removing complexity from abilities until the game is performant, or starting from nothing and iteratively adding complexity until the server can no longer tolerate it. With Vengeance, ZOS is clearly trying the latter, indicating that they believe that only drastic action will solve Cyro's performance issues. I can't comment on whether ZOS is correct about this or not because I don't have the info to make that determination, but it is clear that ZOS believes it.

Trials and Dungeons are more analogous to Battlegrounds in that there are a fixed number of players involved. All of them have performance issues (I love when I crash in a Battleground and then get a deserter penalty /s), but since player numbers are fixed and lower, and ZOS hasn't tried to slap Vengeance on them yet, they presumably are happy to take a more top-down approach to solving performance issues in these regions.

Therefore, I conclude that a Vengeance-type mode is unnecessary for current PVE modes because they either (1) have a fixed player cap making top-down performance fixing feasible in ZOS's eyes or (2) they can dynamically route players to alternate instances to keep zone populations low enough that performance isn't an issue.

HOWEVER: I had fun with the large-scale PvE combat in the Writhing Fortress, where the idea was to have dozens or hundreds of players fighting at once. If ZOS wants to make more of these type of events but is running into performance issues, I'd happily accept a Vengeance-type ruleset to allow for large-scale, epic battles.

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

doabhi wrote: »

A lot of people here saying "I don't lag" aren't actually getting it. Nobody is talking about Client side lag, we're talking about server side lag - the kind that kicks you out of the game, causes huge sync pauses mid battle, tosses a coin on whether your skill fired or not...

I remember that ZoS mentioned they were adding more servers.. a while back, I don't recall the time frame. Maybe they need to review their minimum system specs, and update accordingly?

Server hardware needs to be updated on a regular 3-5 year period. The PC NA servers were in usage from 2013 (maybe sooner) to end of 2022.

Before doing this they dragged their feet and stated this would not improve the performance of the game (it did) and this goes against anything with any knowledge regarding live service MMORPGs or server hardware would tell you.

They tried to do a disable proc test as well for some reason before updating the servers.

Right now we have no idea about the quality or viability of the server hardware that they have been able to acquire for the game.

Their recent comments have not indicated anything about their intentions to explore investments into further server hardware updates in the future when that 3-5 year mark comes around again or what kind of updates we would be looking at when that mark is reached.

Updating server hardware involves money that I am not sure they are prepared to invest into the game.

Either way, as of June 2027 it will have been 5 years since PC NA servers were updated and the months that follow will allow other region servers to hit that mark as well.

Will they choose to adhere to industry standards and update their server hardware appropriately? Is doing so part of their plan to enable cross-play for this game? Time will tell and I do hope for the best regardless of whether I am still playing and paying for the game.

Wild how serious people this thread took while it is obvious rage bait and/or meme thread.

But hey if people want an optional Vengeance style PvE experience next to the classic mode (just like PvP will be) go for it.

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

doabhi wrote: »

A lot of people here saying "I don't lag" aren't actually getting it. Nobody is talking about Client side lag, we're talking about server side lag - the kind that kicks you out of the game, causes huge sync pauses mid battle, tosses a coin on whether your skill fired or not...

I remember that ZoS mentioned they were adding more servers.. a while back, I don't recall the time frame. Maybe they need to review their minimum system specs, and update accordingly?

Server hardware needs to be updated on a regular 3-5 year period. The PC NA servers were in usage from 2013 (maybe sooner) to end of 2022.

Before doing this they dragged their feet and stated this would not improve the performance of the game (it did) and this goes against anything with any knowledge regarding live service MMORPGs or server hardware would tell you.

They tried to do a disable proc test as well for some reason before updating the servers.

Right now we have no idea about the quality or viability of the server hardware that they have been able to acquire for the game.

Their recent comments have not indicated anything about their intentions to explore investments into further server hardware updates in the future when that 3-5 year mark comes around again or what kind of updates we would be looking at when that mark is reached.

Updating server hardware involves money that I am not sure they are prepared to invest into the game.

Either way, as of June 2027 it will have been 5 years since PC NA servers were updated and the months that follow will allow other region servers to hit that mark as well.

Will they choose to adhere to industry standards and update their server hardware appropriately? Is doing so part of their plan to enable cross-play for this game? Time will tell and I do hope for the best regardless of whether I am still playing and paying for the game.

And recall that what we are currently playing on is not 2022 hardware, either!

They ordered them in like early 2020 but did not take ownership of them until 2022 due to the pandemic. So we're already using like half-decade old equipment.