Developer Deep Dive—ESO's Class Identity Refresh

CAB_Life · December 5

OK, so after reading this over a few times, I have questions and concerns.I’m struggling to understand how making every single skill line a jack of all trades with desirable traits and passives will somehow magically result in A.) an easy on boarding for any new player—if anything, this will be twice as baffling as before and B.) balance when every single skill line is good and offers options for whatever role you want to play. Then we add additional benefits for locking yourself into your two or three primary class skill lines and it seems as if we have a new recipe for power creep. While I wasn’t always a fan of the rigidity of the tank/healer/DPS associated skill lines, it at least made sense and was consistent. It also seems as if we will end up with a more complicated, convoluted environment where the min-maxers will still find the best combinations of pure or partial classing and/or sub-classing and the ceiling will be even higher than before.

The rollout and timeline is also somewhat concerning and needs to be accelerated; like one class every quarter is simply not acceptable given the state that the game is in and that drip-feeding will only contribute to further unbalancing and player apathy.

Edit: and for the love of God, please give necromancers a permanent pet. These disposable skeletons that feel like nothing but DOTs are just embarrassing, especially when NPC necromancers are regularly standing around in the rift and other zones with their undead hordes just ambling about them.

Muizer · December 5

So, ZOS seem to have developed a knack of creating confusion, leaving players to speculate and then not correcting them when they reach the wrong conclusions.Perhaps we can try nipping it in the bud here, so at least we are on the same page here.

The fact that the changes are made sequentially, on a class by class basis, over a period of years means the overhaul of each class is intended to work in a 'self contained' manner. This is simply no way to address balance relative to other classes or their skill lines. We must conclude that any reference to the balance issues caused by subclassing were tagged on as an afterthought. Let's not delude ourselves into false expectations. The reference to subclassing and balance is just there to say "we heard you" or "we'll keep that in mind", but it's not what this Class Identity Refresh is about. That is not how it is listed on their to-do list. That is "update all classes to the quality standards of the Arkanist". Nothing more, nothing less.

Yudo · December 5

Good initiative but the timeline will be painful to stay in current state until you go through classes one by one, even then no real way of telling if it will be worth it that much. Can only hope for the best I guess and maybe check-in when a new update drops. At this point what will be ever delivered in finished state. The QA is there just to confirm long standing assumptions.
Can't say I'll be sticking around unfortunately. Maybe DK mains are happy lol.

CAB_Life · December 5

Nightarrow did a great job of echoing/ summarizing my concerns:

https://youtu.be/nO-OXzn1bhk?si=25r3k_EFquzPMb42

So they couldn’t balance the classes as they were in 10 years, but we are somehow expected to imagine that they will completely reinvent each class from the ground up, maintain some semblance of power parity along each skill line well also balancing that against subclassing? This requires a delusional level of suspension of disbelief and copium, as much as I want to support the shift in communications and the new development team, I just don’t think they’re gonna be able to do it and setting sky high aspirations like this will only lead to crushing, apocalyptic failure. And we haven’t even gotten into the deplorable state of things like Scribing or World skils which have never been addressed or balanced properly. Or the added complexity that this game already suffers from. The best games, layer progression, without burdening the player with bloated systems, add meta-item chases (ESO has none, really—once to get your lead that's it), rather than endless, horizontal expansion of already tired game systems.

Last'One · December 5

How can I say that I don’t believe a single word from ZoS without breaking any CoC rule?

I don’t believe in the current balance.
I don’t believe they will find balance.
And I don’t believe they will deliver significant improvements in the next three years.

The only thing I’m 100% sure of is this: I don’t expect major changes for at least the next three years.

If they keep subclassing without removing DPS sharing and logs, so players can actually play the game without the gatekeeping and toxicity around; DPS Numbers, one-bar, bad builds, then the game we have today is likely all we’ll get until the servers go offline for good.

allochthons · December 5

Visuals are being revamped. Which is great, many are old and dated. But please, ZoS, "Modern" skills do NOT need to be flashy and bright! Cool, yes. Blinding, no!

Please keep that in mind.

And give us, on consoles, at least*, the ability to turn off the flashy effects. It's a real problem, and it's been ignored for too long.

* I guess you can turn off other's ability visuals on PC?

Kallykat · December 5

Well, I appreciate ZOS speaking on the timeframe for the updates during the ESO Live. Obviously, they were still fairly vague about it and are going to take more time than many people would like them to take, but at least I have a little better idea what we're facing.

On the other hand, they didn't clarify their plan regarding how the mechanics and playstyles of each class will manifest in the skill lines. Maybe people with a higher level of knowledge of combat got more out of it, but for my part, I don't have a better understanding after watching the Live of what playing these classes will actually look like than I did after just reading the article. There still seems to be some confusion regarding whether or not they are sticking with the tank/dd/healer division or not.

Hopefully, they will clarify things presently as they claim to be committed to more communication and transparency moving forward. I'm primarily concerned with consistency across classes, whichever direction they take the skill lines, for the sake of simplicity. I'm also hoping they can also use this opportunity to implement tools to help new players and players who aren't combat minded to make sense of how the combat system works without having to do a bunch of research outside the game. I like the suggestions I've seen about class quests and labels on each skill, for example.

manukartofanu · December 5

Marto wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

Сan you clarify—did I hear correctly that they explained we can’t just go and balance the classes and multiclassing, because it’s also a long process, and you can’t simply change the numbers, you also have to communicate with visual specialists?

If you want to change the duration, delay, or speed of any channeled, cast time or projectile skill, you have to work on the animation to match the new duration. Which is likely done by a different team.

But don't read their words so literally. What they mean is that changes to combat can sometimes result in changes having to be done in other areas. Animation, audio, code, server, etc. This is just a normal part of game development.

That’s all correct, but wasn’t the original question specifically: why don’t they simply balance what already exists?

You can balance the game without touching any of those parameters at all.
For example, you can adjust things like damage coefficients, stat scaling, resource costs, cooldown durations, stack limits, passive bonuses, and synergy values.

None of these require changes to animations, visuals, audio, or other asset-dependent elements.
This is pure balance tuning, not a skill redesign.

shadyjane62 · December 5

Not seeing much these days that will keep me in the game.

Just saying...

Gabriel_H · December 6

CAB_Life wrote: »

OK, so after reading this over a few times, I have questions and concerns.I’m struggling to understand how making every single skill line a jack of all trades with desirable traits and passives will somehow magically result in A.) an easy on boarding for any new player—if anything.

It's already that for the 4 base classes.

nb_rich · December 7

I do not think anything can fix the issues with subclassing at this point. It originally should have only been 1 skill line to subclass not 2. Ive said this on multiple posts but it makes no sense my characters are specified by a class when they all have the same exact skill lines equipped (for example why is one of my characters a Templar and one a Arcanist when they both have Harold of the Tome, Dawns Wrath and animal companion skill lines). Keeping 2 lines at least would have kept a class identity and provide way more balance.

The problem with allowing 2 skill lines to be subclassed is everyone will just go for the skill lines with the most beneficial passives for there role. This is why Harold of the Tome, Assassination or Grave Lord is on every single PvE dps build. This also means you’re more limited to choosing a starting class depending on your role. With only having to keep one subclass from your original class the only way to balance classes is to separate skill lines by dps, healing and tanking, if not a bunch of skills will never be used which is already the case.

I also do not think it is smart to work on one class at a time. The community is just going to be more upset either because updated skill lines will be to powerful everyone has to use them until another class is updated, or the class will still underperform leaving us wondering when the next update for the class will come out which can be years if you go through each class one at a time.

nb_rich · December 7

I feel like ZOS needs to release these updated classes in groups. If you work on them one at a time, let us provide feedback then work on another and release a few updated classes at once, even it takes longer to drop the update for the classes. Just looking at the posts a lot of people think the DK will just be overpowered, and if its not overpowered everyone will be upset the class is still weak so its a lose-lose situation lol.

As a PvE player there is no serious problem with subclassing since we can still complete all content. The only issue as a PvE player is that it’s depressing to see people builds performing so much better then the builds I actually want to play. Its just an ego and pride thing to be honest lol.

I remember when subclassing came out I was excited and put together something cool. When I ran into a normal dungeon I couldn’t even get my rotation off cause everyone was just using the fatecarver beam including my healer and tank lol. Right after that I had no choice but to equip Harold of the Tome cause im not trying to just watch people carry me every trial or dungeon. If you go in a trial and any part of the trial requires one or two dps the Fatecarver users are first up cause they shred everything the quickest and easiest.

From a pvp player point of view I cant really comment on that but I feel like anyone can kill anyone in pvp doesn’t matter what build you use. When there are pvp events I play with pve gear and skills but I still kill other players just fine lol.

For a temporary fix bringing up the damage of other skills will help make the game more fun

CAB_Life · December 7

Gabriel_H wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

OK, so after reading this over a few times, I have questions and concerns.I’m struggling to understand how making every single skill line a jack of all trades with desirable traits and passives will somehow magically result in A.) an easy on boarding for any new player—if anything.

It's already that for the 4 base classes.

Except it's not though. DK clearly has a tanking and DPS tree, even if not explicitly labelled—their healing is all over the place though. Templar has the same, with restoring light (healing), aedric spear (now with an actual charge/taunt), and a mixed dps/ utility line. NB has shadow for tanking, assassination for dps and a clear healing line. Sorc you couldn’t say the same, although storm calling is just op and best for almost everything.

Sure the four base classes are not as refined as the later three classes, but they're more in line with a three-way split than a jack of all trades approach. They were already moving in this direction as a development team, so it would make more sense to refine this rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater and going for a complete overhaul from the ground up, which is destined to fail given their balancing track record.

Turtle_Bot · December 7

CAB_Life wrote: »

Except it's not though. DK clearly has a tanking and DPS tree, even if not explicitly labelled—their healing is all over the place though. Templar has the same, with restoring light (healing), aedric spear (now with an actual charge/taunt), and a mixed dps/ utility line. NB has shadow for tanking, assassination for dps and a clear healing line. Sorc you could say the same although storm calling is just op and best for almost everything.

Sure the four base classes are not as refined as the later three classes, but they're more in line with a three-way split than a jack of all trades approach. They were already moving in this direction as a development team, so it would make more sense to refine this rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater and going for a complete overhaul from the ground up, which is destined to fail given their balancing track record.

Just to clarify, are you saying sorcs lines are cleanly split into the 3 roles? because I really fail to see how that is even remotely possible considering just how many key aspects for each role that each sorc line is missing

If sorcs lines were actually following the 3 roles of tank/heal/DPS, key aspects for each role would be in their respective lines, aspects such as the following:
- armor buff, taunt and tanking niche (teleport) in the tank line
- spammable, DPS named buffs and class DoTs in the DPS line
- heals and group buffs in the healer/support line

However, as we can see below, those key aspects outlined above are clearly not in their respective lines.

Storm Calling (DPS line):

Has DPS focused aspects such as:
DPS passives, class execute, class AoE DoTs.
Has Non-DPS focused aspects such as:
Armor buff, class HoT and the class AoE CC.
Missing DPS aspects:
Class Spammable (most important DPS aspect), class ST DoTs, Class delayed burst/payoff skill.

Dark Magic (support/tank line?):

Has Support aspects such as:
Sustain, self healing, group healing, CC abilities
Has Non-support aspects such as:
Class spammable.
Missing support/tank aspects:
Taunt, mitigation/armor buffs/passives, group buffs/debuffs.

Daedric Summoning (support/healer line?)

Has Tank/heal aspects such as:
Group Buffs, class burst heals, mitigation buffs/effects
Has Non-Tank/heal aspects:
Class ST DoTs, class delayed burst, class DPS ultimate, class source of Major Prophecy/savagery
Missing tank/healer aspects:
Class HoT, class taunt.

CAB_Life · December 7

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

Except it's not though. DK clearly has a tanking and DPS tree, even if not explicitly labelled—their healing is all over the place though. Templar has the same, with restoring light (healing), aedric spear (now with an actual charge/taunt), and a mixed dps/ utility line. NB has shadow for tanking, assassination for dps and a clear healing line. Sorc you could say the same although storm calling is just op and best for almost everything.

Sure the four base classes are not as refined as the later three classes, but they're more in line with a three-way split than a jack of all trades approach. They were already moving in this direction as a development team, so it would make more sense to refine this rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater and going for a complete overhaul from the ground up, which is destined to fail given their balancing track record.

Just to clarify, are you saying sorcs lines are cleanly split into the 3 roles? because I really fail to see how that is even remotely possible considering just how many key aspects for each role that each sorc line is missing
If sorcs lines were actually following the 3 roles of tank/heal/DPS, key aspects for each role would be in their respective lines, aspects such as the following:
- armor buff, taunt and tanking niche (teleport) in the tank line
- spammable, DPS named buffs and class DoTs in the DPS line
- heals and group buffs in the healer/support line

However, as we can see below, those key aspects outlined above are clearly not in their respective lines.

Storm Calling (DPS line):
Has DPS focused aspects such as:
DPS passives, class execute, class AoE DoTs.

Has Non-DPS focused aspects such as:
Armor buff, class HoT and the class AoE CC.

Missing DPS aspects:
Class Spammable (most important DPS aspect), class ST DoTs, Class delayed burst/payoff skill.

Dark Magic (support/tank line?):
Has Support aspects such as:
Sustain, self healing, group healing, CC abilities

Has Non-support aspects such as:
Class spammable.

Missing support/tank aspects:
Taunt, mitigation/armor buffs/passives, group buffs/debuffs.

Daedric Summoning (support/healer line?)
Has Tank/heal aspects such as:
Group Buffs, class burst heals, mitigation buffs/effects

Has Non-Tank/heal aspects:
Class ST DoTs, class delayed burst, class DPS ultimate, class source of Major Prophecy/savagery

Missing tank/healer aspects:
Class HoT, class taunt.

“Could > couldn’t.” Sorry a couple letters really change context, since amended the post. Sorc is easily the messiest and most jack-of-all-trades, random stuff in every tree, which should worry people now that ZOS is pursuing this path ubiquitously.

heaven13 · December 7

CAB_Life wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

OK, so after reading this over a few times, I have questions and concerns.I’m struggling to understand how making every single skill line a jack of all trades with desirable traits and passives will somehow magically result in A.) an easy on boarding for any new player—if anything.

It's already that for the 4 base classes.

Except it's not though. DK clearly has a tanking and DPS tree, even if not explicitly labelled—their healing is all over the place though. Templar has the same, with restoring light (healing), aedric spear (now with an actual charge/taunt), and a mixed dps/ utility line. NB has shadow for tanking, assassination for dps and a clear healing line. Sorc you couldn’t say the same, although storm calling is just op and best for almost everything.

Sure the four base classes are not as refined as the later three classes, but they're more in line with a three-way split than a jack of all trades approach. They were already moving in this direction as a development team, so it would make more sense to refine this rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater and going for a complete overhaul from the ground up, which is destined to fail given their balancing track record.

While I completely agree and share your concerns that balance has never really been a thing and that mixing stuff up creates more potential issues and more combos that need balancing, I do still think it's more player-friendly, especially if they want us to engage in subclassing. If I'm going to subclass, I don't want to be forced into a specific skill line because it's the dps line (or the tank one or heal one). I want more freedom to choose which skill line appeals to me based on visuals and identity, not just numbers-go-brr. IF they can do it decently well, this will be better overall. I do concede that it's a BIG IF though.