Developer Deep Dive—ESO's Class Identity Refresh

El_Borracho

Welcome to Phase 2 of the "We Told You Subclassing Was A Mistake." Where each class gets its best features and skills nerfed in order to keep subclassing around, instead of just scrapping subclassing. Because there is no way they are going to make Ardent Flame skills even stronger.

The even crazier part is not putting Nightblade at the top of the list of classes to rework as the Assassination skill line is the biggest offender in terms of overperforming subclassing skill lines.

Emeratis

Overall I like most of what is in the article on paper. I appreciate also that there is a desire to see pureclass and subclassing have a closer power budget as someone who has characters I prefer pureclass and other characters I prefer subclassing for rp/character reasons.

I have one gripe overall with the article and it's something several people have already pointed out in their own way: class identity and the rigidity of it. Part of the appeal to many of us who enjoyed at least the concept of subclassing was feeling that the seven existing classes did not properly represent our characters' identity or our favorite class from prior elder scrolls titles. Some of us chose eso as our main mmo over others because we liked the feeling of more freedom of character build. I strongly dislike that the class identity parts listed are so rigid and it seems like I'm not fully alone in that. For years, every class has had thematics that have also been open to interpretation of the player. Part of the frustration many had with arcanist besides the balance was how rigid the class identity and fantasy was.

My main request in writing this is can we expect that classes will have enough freedom for us to see the reason we fell in love with the class still in them? Can the class identity continue to encompass various roles and themes under an umbrella and not feel so limiting? I do not see the power fantasy or thematic I enjoy in many of the class descriptions in the article, and I know others feel similarly. Arcanist, while rigid, did not previously require a pact with Hermaeus Mora. The appeal of templar is light magic, which may come from aedric sources, or Meridia, or others. Wardens are the main source of ice based abilities in eso alongside it's nature thematic. Sorcerer fit the umbrella of storm magic as well as summoning. Not all of the nightblade thematic was assassin and stealth related, some was related to the essence, blood, and soul magic it uses.

Not just going into thematic concerns, but there is also logistics one. Nightblade has been my favorite class for 11 years and it's not even close. While the power fantasy of nightblade may sound nice on paper, in pve, much of it is not currently possible. When you're doing dungeon and trial hardmodes and trifectas, most bosses are immune to crowd control and stealth doesn't really matter. In prior years, nigthblade has had issue with having great burst when most pve group content wants reliable/sustained dps. Logistically, how does one answer that fantasy? Allow bosses to be crowd controlled again? Redo a decade of pve content to make stealth, crowd control, and mobility less niche and more rewarding? Part of the criticism of subclassing I and many others said was that it doesn't feel rewarding or fun at higher levels of play, how does that get answered where the class identity slide also has similar problems for certain classes and their listed power fantasy, especially for those who mostly or only play one class in group related stuff.

Again, more hopeful than not about the article, but I just want to put this concern out there as it potentially impacts two of the most important things in the game for me currently-lore/character things and hardmode/tri group content.

Malyore

twisttop138 wrote: »

Can we talk for a second about "holistic approach". I'm unsure what's meant by that, I'm a little older, maybe I'm not getting the lingo, but what I read is this. "We're getting nowhere using science, so we're going for Karen at the herb store. She says these crystals work wonders.

@twisttop138
"Holistic" is not lingo for what you're stereotyping, rather it simply means looking at something as a whole rather than focusing on limited aspects. It is in fact used in scientific communities such as anthropology and psychology, to name a few.

Put very simply, a holistic approach looks at the entire puzzle, whereas more focused approaches look at just a piece of the puzzle.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

I didn't get quite the same evil/good sentiment you did; "opportunistic use of forbidden powers" doesn't equate to evil necessarily. And the necromancer description was pretty matter-of-fact with no morality stated. Templar does say "holy warrior," however, and warden is described as a protector, so those do seem more good aligned than any of the others. But mostly I didn't pick up on any definitive intended alignment in the descriptions.

Taking the sorcerer as an example, I think this does sounds quite "immoral" at least:
"daedric pacts"
"dark magic"
"opportunistic use of forbidden powers"
And I think for some sorcerer characters people play this doesn't apply at all.

As well as sorcerer npcs, by the way - we know there are many uses of magic in TES lore, the whole range from "moral" and altruistic to, well, the opposite of that. But the sorcerer class seems to focus very much on only one very specific idea of what a sorcerer is supposed to be. I think part of what makes me be sceptical about this is that the class name is rather generic. It's not "dark conjurer" or whatever, it's just "sorcerer", which is a very broad term.

wolfie1.0.

What i would like to know is this. Why are we limited to 3 class skill lines? Why cant more be added?

Why dont we have ROLE based skill lines. And yes I mean roles specifically not just weapon skill lines.

And why does every class need to be focused on a role?

One of the reasons Arcanist is so powerful is that each class skill line is focused on a specific role, while sorcerers in comparison are all over the place.

To me, the best course of action to move forward is to abandon pre-made classes completely. Use the original classes as template suggestions in the character creation screen but allow players to pick skill lines from there. Remove any references to class from the game. Class Mastery scribing? Just Remove the bonus along with any other class restrictions.

Then give us more skill lines to work with.

What you are going to do is try to shoehorn in old classes into current day meta playstyles and its probably going to just be a disaster.

Better to just offer new skill lines that compliment the old ones over making massive changes to the old ones.

We were told that one of the reasons DSA wasnt going to get major changes was because its old content. We were told we can't get new weapons because you would have to go back and redesign so many motifs to include them...

Why does the same logic not apply hear?

AScarlato

If they change some classes by a significant margin, can we have a class-change token?

katanagirl1

This is an ambitious goal, but I have my doubts about it being successful due to the fact that it would have been much easier to do before subclassing and now the amount of work just went up exponentially, and it was never done. I wish them the best, though. Here are some of my thoughts about it.

I have not done any subclassing, I don’t like the way it changes my established characters so radically. I don’t think I even can since I’m on console and I have leveled up all skill lines already. I’m not a theorycrafter, so I look to content creators to let me know what gear and skills are best, and they are subclassed builds. I just have the same build as I did before, not knowing if I can do better with a pure class build.

The cat’s already out of the bag and class identity has been thrown out the window, so I am surprised that now is the time to address it, because balance among classes is at an all time low. I don’t think anyone uses dragonknights in Cyrodiil anymore. I don’t even bother picking up the daily to kill 20 of them because I can’t complete it. Same with necromancer and arcanist. Dragonknights were too powerful before but subclassing killed that. It’s not just PvE that has made some (or even one) classes meta and the rest not worth playing.

Please reconsider the vision of nightblade. This class should be viable again in group dungeons and trials. Striking from the shadows doesn’t work there. They should be more than just Dark Brotherhood assassins. They used to be a great dps class for those few who could manage the skills but complaints about them dominating leaderboards got them nerfed to oblivion.

I’d also like to see some way to enjoy playing a class with all stamina skills or all magicka skills in a post-hybridization world. There have been calls to finish the hybridization process but I am not a fan of that either. My orc stamplar has sat idle for years when I used to really enjoy her in Cyrodiil. My pure class arcanist struggles with magicka resource management when not in a group with supports due to her resource pool being stamina but having to back bar a staff for increased dps.

EDIT: typo

Ragnarok0130

LukosCreyden wrote: »

A few things:
6. Many people enjoy subclassing. It'd be good to not make the system completely obsolete.

What do you mean by obsolete, do you mean subclassing being treated the way pure classes have been since subclassing was introduced as in heavily nerfed and not worth running? I suspect here the goal will be equality/parity between subclassing and pure classes. Anything other than equal standing or parity will be a failure.

Toanis

Ideally it would be actual subclassing, as in a new class that is a blend of both playstyles. Like Necromancer + Dragon Knight = Death Knight who wields disease and cold instead of fire and poison, weaponizes corpses instead of mud but doesn't summon "minions", whereas Necromancer + Sorcerer would be a Warlock who raises permanent undead minions and trades lightning for corpse mechanics.

That's still 21 additional "classes" but that's manageable compared to the 1330 skill line combinations we have now, and would preserve an actual class identity.

Lord_Hev

Please, PLEASE just stop with the "visual and audio updates" Stop butchering what isn't broken and what is iconic. PLEASE, JUST STOP. ZERO TRUST.

The rest of the article sounds very nice and all, but I've been so battered into pessimistic apathy that I believe none of it. Can we at LEAST keep all the abilities that we have all grown so accustomed and used to in-tact without it being butchered... Jabs change, lots of backlash. And this recent "animation update" absolutely hated and poorly done. JUST STOP.

Erickson9610

AScarlato wrote: »

If they change some classes by a significant margin, can we have a class-change token?

They should've added class change tokens long ago. Subclassing can't change which Class Mastery or Class Sets you can use.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I didn't get quite the same evil/good sentiment you did; "opportunistic use of forbidden powers" doesn't equate to evil necessarily. And the necromancer description was pretty matter-of-fact with no morality stated. Templar does say "holy warrior," however, and warden is described as a protector, so those do seem more good aligned than any of the others. But mostly I didn't pick up on any definitive intended alignment in the descriptions.

Taking the sorcerer as an example, I think this does sounds quite "immoral" at least:
"daedric pacts"
"dark magic"
"opportunistic use of forbidden powers"
And I think for some sorcerer characters people play this doesn't apply at all.

As well as sorcerer npcs, by the way - we know there are many uses of magic in TES lore, the whole range from "moral" and altruistic to, well, the opposite of that. But the sorcerer class seems to focus very much on only one very specific idea of what a sorcerer is supposed to be. I think part of what makes me be sceptical about this is that the class name is rather generic. It's not "dark conjurer" or whatever, it's just "sorcerer", which is a very broad term.

I agree that description doesn't fit with what I've always thought sorcerers are in this game and it definitely does lean a certain way--specifically towards the forbidden and dark. I just didn't see that equating to an 'evil' morality being forced on the class. I agree that it is a very narrow description for a very broad class idea and probably should be reworked to better represent the class as a whole.

scrappy1342

Skorro wrote: »

Also this is a great opportunity for sorc pet visual changes? 🙃

haven't read through all the pages, but very much like this one. if not for the sorcs themselves... do it for the ppl who have to look at them >.>

The_Meathead

Erickson9610 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

If they change some classes by a significant margin, can we have a class-change token?

They should've added class change tokens long ago. Subclassing can't change which Class Mastery or Class Sets you can use.

From what they said, Class Change mechanics weren't possible for some coding reason - and thus we got Subclassing as sort of an alternative with entirely unforeseeable consequences (kidding, we all saw them from miles out. We got ignored.)

I would much have preferred Class Change Tokens, too, but... here we are.

GeneralGrundmann

I quote myself from another thread:

"Even easier approach:

-Only one skill line from a single class: no passives for this skill line

-Two skill lines from a single class: only first level of passives for both skill lines

-Three skill lines from a single class: all levels of passives for all three skill lines"

Eldartar

I'm having update 35 flashbacks . . . . . I hope I'm wrong.

imPDA

I am agreeing with concerns about doing it step by step.
- If you are going to remake class completely, you will definitely make DK the strongest class for some period of time (or weakest, who knows). If you are going to keep it somewhere in balance with others, what this reworks is for then?
- If you are going just to change numbers here and there, move skills between skill lines, adjust passives, but not reworking skills from the ground, if there will be no new skills and mechanics - it is not going to be welcomed. Reworks like this was done many times before and they were made for ALL classes at the same time.

Without further details on points above, it sounds like another lie about "big rework". I hope there will actually be new skills, mechanics, passives, or I am completely against these changes.

Radiate77

@ZOS_Kevin this would have been a great resource to use for your team to align Class priorities for rework.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685625/class-rework-2025/p1

SkaiFaith

I APPRECIATE SO MUCH that we can feel a change in the direction of the game with this letter - Until now it was all a promise but we wanted to see the reflection of the change in "seats of power". IMO, things are starting to feel like they come from a player of ESO and not just "corpo"; such welcome news!

I've appreciated the graphic for classes and as a Warden Main who enjoy soloing - Thank you; its description makes it feel like it is indeed a soloist, able to fight and keep itself up.
What I'd like to see for Wardens, based on your beautiful description, is leaning in the seasons theme so that ice wouldn't feel out of place anymore on them. Couple of ideas?
- Make "Polar Wind" just "Restorative Wind" and "Destructive Wind" giving it the aesthetics of the four seasons through skill styles maybe: blossom petals, green leaves, autumn leaves, and snow flakes.
- Make Deep Fissure a frost skill swapping Beatles with Ice Wraiths.

While changes are much needed and appreciated, please don't demolish what we've achieved through years of grind (repeated to max subclassing) with our builds. And don't make subclassing useless - we often see in games new systems becoming useless, sadly... Don't follow the trend.

Thank you for the communication! Best wishes for the future of ESO!

MageCatF4F

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Will you redesign content so that these different playsyles have meaning outside pvp?
"For example, Nightblades rely on cunning and shadow to stay elusive in battle, striking while the moment is right,"
Which PvE boss can I have this power fantasy on? So many things don't work on bosses, including stealth and CC, not to mention the less obvious things like how some playstyles synergize with the way content is designed and others just make things harder with no benefit. I wouldn't mind if there was more variety where some playstyles are better in some places than others, but currently big cleave is king and the faster you do damage the more mechanics you can skip and fights get not just easier but exponentially easier. so 10% less than optimal damage can make a fight 25% longer and 25% less can make a fihht twice as long and half the damage can make a fight 4 or 5 times longer (obviously the scaling is different in different fights, but it is a general trend in trial and dungeon and even WB design).
This means some play styles are better than others even if they parse the same or are numerically balanced.

I worried about that the instant I read that little snippet on what they think a Nightblade should be.

Maybe I do not understand yet what they have in mind, but at the moment it looks troubling.

As a Nightblade, if my only contribution in a group or duo is to stealth around, open treasure chests and scout out how many adds the boss has then I might be playing something else very soon.

To say nothing of being useless solo in PvE. I mostly solo. For reference, I only PvE.

Most of the game centers around fighting mobs, not picking pockets. You know? If I can't dps effectively my character is useless.

I have 5 Champion level characters, 4 are Nightblades. Are you sure it's a good idea to make me subclass to be 2/3 as good as whatever becomes the average dps class?

xDeusEJRx

I'm really surprised Necromancer is so low on the priority list, everyone has been asking for Necromancer help for years. I don't think a single soul has said "Nightblade needs help sooner than necromancer does"

BasP

Firstly, thanks for the Developer Deep Dive. Ever since Kevin mentioned in the class survey thread that you were working on a long-term vision for class identity, I was hoping we’d get more details soon. I’m looking forward to the upcoming ESO Live as well. I really appreciate the increased communication and hope you’ll continue down this path!

I also like what was shared in the article. Personally, I'm glad you're "decentralizing role-specific power so that a single skill line won’t have every tool you need to achieve your goals", even if it inevitably leads to changes/nerfs to skill lines such as Herald of the Tome. I believe that only having hybrid skill lines could lead to a larger number of interesting and (somewhat) equally viable builds, if done well.

The things you mentioned about the Dragonknight class seem interesting on paper to me as well. I like that the class seems to get shorter and stronger DoTs, and the Avalanche passive sounds interesting too. We’ll have to see how it actually performs, but it’s encouraging to see new passives like that in lines that currently aren’t used by PvE DPS.

As a Warden main, I'm pleasantly surprised to see it second on your list. I’ve been hoping for some non-healing additions to the Green Balance line for a while, and it looks like that may finally be on the horizon. I’d also love to see Winter’s Embrace get a few changes to help Frost Mages become more competitive.

That said, I do hope the development cycle for each class rework is relatively short. If we only get one class rework every three months or so, and no other balance changes in the meantime, we could end up in a prolonged period of imbalance where some ‘pure’ classes are noticeably stronger than others, while lines like Herald of the Tome and Assassination remain dominant for Subclassing.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

I became a nightblade for the Blood Magic not to stealth around like a coward, I use Dark Cloak for crying out loud, if you ruin the classes by redoing them then you have to offer class change tokens because I did not sign up for a stealth character when I made them.

StihlReign

One overarching pattern you’ll see as we move toward improving this experience is reorganizing class skill lines, adding in more benefits for sticking with the core skill lines of your class, and decentralizing role-specific power so that a single skill line won’t have every tool you need to achieve your goals.

This is interesting and concerning. NBs started the game in a tough place 12 years ago and have been tweaked and tuned constantly (even when we've begged to be left alone), to get to a decent place. The NBs skills were fine until subclassing gave them to everyone, prompting subclass players to begin begging for updates while exhibiting little to no idea how to play the class across it's skill lines and synergized abilities, their primary motive being to stack power with other classes dmg lines.

I hope this surgery uses a scalpel not an axe.

SneaK

What’s the chances they just roll these out alongside Vengeance as “tests” and use the positive feedback/exclusive participation numbers as fuel to delete our game?

Tariq9898

One of my concerns is how much last gen consoles are gonna hold back the scope and scale of this plan.

The combat animation changes happened because of last gen consoles limited hardware. I can’t help but think the full aspiration of bringing back class identity, adding new thematic flair, and a complete upheaval of the class system will never be wholly realized due to last gen hardware. What other features will be “taken out” or reduced to improve memory for this grand plan to bring back class identity??

Erickson9610

The_Meathead wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

If they change some classes by a significant margin, can we have a class-change token?

They should've added class change tokens long ago. Subclassing can't change which Class Mastery or Class Sets you can use.

From what they said, Class Change mechanics weren't possible for some coding reason - and thus we got Subclassing as sort of an alternative with entirely unforeseeable consequences (kidding, we all saw them from miles out. We got ignored.)

I would much have preferred Class Change Tokens, too, but... here we are.

ZOS should still push for proper Class Change Tokens, though. ZOS could still implement them, given that they figured out how to make Alliance Change Tokens work.

Muizer

Destai wrote: »

Each class should have a role specific skill line with the necessary tools for that role.

That's exactly what's causing problems in combination with subclassing. A rigid division means that depending on the role you can select the 3 'best' class lines and thus always outperform the 'pure' class.

It looks like instead they're going to distribute role abilities across skill lines. 'Pure' classes will be relatively unaffected by this, but subclasses will no longer be able to stack the best of the best for a role, because each line will have some more and some less relevant skills.

If that's indeed what they're planning though, they're way late to implement it.

And you're right that while it may help class identity it won't really help class+role identity.

Malyore

The language used in the post is very refreshing. However, experience with ESO has taught me to not get excited based on prospects, as they never truly seem to hit a good mark. (Plus the continuous degradation of aesthetic makes it harder to feel excited about the future of the game. It feels less and less like elder scrolls each crown crate drop.)

As others have mentioned, hybridization still hasn't been finished. Other things that were introduced briefly and not maintained are things like the IA class sets, scribing*, and basegame zone updates. I'd like to see all of these completed alongside with the class updates.
As it stands right now, I don't expect the plans for these class changes to actually mean what we hope they mean, and will instead be added to the unfinished pile of projects.

*scribing could benefit from improving its current content, as it felt like it never reached its goal, even if the system itself is "finished".

IsharaMeradin

Not reading through all the posts...

Personally, I think each class should have a tank line, heal line and damage line. Then subclassing allows for swapping out one line type for the same line type from the other class. With that setup, there would be no way to get three damage only skill lines. There then would always be a tank line, heal line and damage line whether it is pure class or a mix of dragonknight, templar and warden or whatever other combo.