Wouldnt it be nice if we could just set a charactor and play instead of having to re-work all of our sets and skills every......dang......patch......

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Shouldn't hybridization be finished first?

Let's be honest. Subclassing's release ruined the game and now they're attempting to fix it.

This looks and sounds like the devs didn't have a plan to balance subclassing from the beginning, from the concept phase. If they did, subclassing should've been released with some mechanisms to detune the massive power increase and we wouldn't be waiting months, or what now appears to be a couple of years, for some semblance of balance.

They're rebuilding the game. First Vengeance by removing the devs responsibility to balance PvP by addressing combat and set bloat. And now the class system that's been destroyed and undermined due to lack of foresight and, or an incredible amount of hubris. This exercise is a PvE skill rebalancing that shouldn't really matter for most, because out of balance skills/sets/abilities don't really matter in PvE until Vet and Vet HM content. For many it will probably feel like - more dev changes to my class like every other patch. Balance is typically an issue prompted by PvP.

Approaching this as a 2 year plan fits perfectly within the PvE ecosystem; however PvP, due to its nature, will suffer until the project ends or GH is shuttered. Since PvP balance is no longer a concern in GH because GH problems are due to ability complexity, I'd be shocked if any of this effort takes any PvP related feedback into consideration.

...probably would've all been better off with another 3 CP slots and adding lightning/fire wizard to scribing vs releasing subclassing in this way, but the devs seem to have shifted to a Live Test environment for almost everything this year.

while not inherently bad this seems like a way for zos to quietly change all the classes abilities to less resource intensive versions

StihlReign wrote: »

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Shouldn't hybridization be finished first?

Let's be honest. Subclassing's release ruined the game and now they're attempting to fix it.

This looks and sounds like the devs didn't have a plan to balance subclassing from the beginning, from the concept phase. If they did, subclassing should've been released with some mechanisms to detune the massive power increase and we wouldn't be waiting months, or what now appears to be a couple of years, for some semblance of balance.

They're rebuilding the game. First Vengeance by removing the devs responsibility to balance PvP by addressing combat and set bloat. And now the class system that's been destroyed and undermined due to lack of foresight and, or an incredible amount of hubris. This exercise is a PvE skill rebalancing that shouldn't really matter for most, because out of balance skills/sets/abilities don't really matter in PvE until Vet and Vet HM content. For many it will probably feel like - more dev changes to my class like every other patch. Balance is typically an issue prompted by PvP.

Approaching this as a 2 year plan fits perfectly within the PvE ecosystem; however PvP, due to its nature, will suffer until the project ends or GH is shuttered. Since PvP balance is no longer a concern in GH because GH problems are due to ability complexity, I'd be shocked if any of this effort takes any PvP related feedback into consideration.

...probably would've all been better off with another 3 CP slots and adding lightning/fire wizard to scribing vs releasing subclassing in this way, but the devs seem to have shifted to a Live Test environment for almost everything this year.

umm this is just a clever way to take away all the abilities and re-add them vengence style.. without actually saying your doing that.. because that wouldnt fly. It will just happen magically as each class is re-identified. Expect classes and abilities to be simplified which is not intherently a bad thing but they would of been better off changing the combat system entirely. The games true nemisis.

That was a very nice Q&A stream. Pretty high level for obvious reasons, but a lot of things were good to hear.

I did especially like hearing that the team is intending to move away from cookie-cutter or “spreadsheet” balancing in favor of something more nuanced.

I will say that, as a DK main, I’m starting to get a bit excited. I loved seeing the unique skills and looks and sounds of Arcanist, and them continually talking about how beefy the new DK feels makes my Orc Tank heart very happy. I’m interested to see when these drop.

But again, my big concern is with the timing and how much the team can do at once. It’s clear that this massive rework won’t interfere with new zones or quests or dungeons or trials or anything being added, but it could interfere with combat-related new features like additions to Scribing (e.g. new Grimoires, especially for things like werewolf or Undaunted), or new active skill lines, all the way up to new Classes. They kept talking about how excited the players were with the release of Arcanist - well, that was now over two years ago and it’d be great to have that excitement again, especially now that Subclassing means we can use those skills on an existing character and don’t need to start a new character if we don’t want to (but I totally do). I’d really hate if this rework means “only non-combat related features for the next few years.”

tomofhyrule wrote: »

That was a very nice Q&A stream. "....

LOL?! "A very nice Q&A stream"? Okay. If you liked it, fine.

But then they delivered this:

1. Time for the complete Class Identity Refresh = Nothing. They don’t know.
2. Why are they making these changes? Because the game’s balance is a mess? I agree. But if they don’t know when they will deliver the full Class Identity Refresh, what happens in the meantime? Are we going to play the game in this state? Yes.

So, at the end of the day, the only thing we know for sure is this: We have to play the game in this horrible state until… nobody knows!

Please tell me how this is a “very nice Q&A stream”!?! Because they said, “We’re working on this…”? LOL!?

majulook wrote: »

The bad part about today's ESO Live is how long this is going to take. I will be surprised if they get them all done in 2 years.

They’ve been working on Dragonknight for the last 5 months, and it’s not even done yet. So we can assume 6 months per class.

By my calculations:
6 classes × 6 months each = 36 months — that’s 3 years at best!

And what’s supposed to happen in the meantime!?

C’mon… are you serious, ZOS?!?!
Is this really what we deserve from you!?
Is this the best experience you want to give us?!

Are we all supposed to play Arcanist for the next 3 years?! No… I really, really don’t think I’ll do that.

VixxVexx wrote: »

By the time they start doing the last class,the first one will be outdated again.

Just like road construction. 🚧 🦺 🏗️

I felt neglected for a long time as a DK main so this will be exciting. I dont need to be better than all the classes, I just wanna excel at what DK is supposed to better than other classes. These suggestions were exactly what I said in those surveys so Im mostly, and cautiously optimistic when it comes to that. Improved visuals, big, working in more wd for DK, very big for the tank and spank playstyle. Biggest of all is DK not needing to subclass for wardens wings and getting a speed buff on it, that skill was dead for so long and I miss it being useful, even if it wont be as op as it was in the past lol.

The real question will be if all of these changes will make the balancing act better or worse but if people want these to be good changes, slow and steady really is the only option.

If I could suggest one thing only, going off a video that showed some of the changes yall are thinking of already in other languages, it would be to not overdo it with the strength of healing in DK skills to make healer viable on it, not every class needs to be viable at every little thing, giving us more healing potential is only gonna make the healing problem in PvP way worse, then youll have to correct this later by nerfing DK, again, or overbuffing other classes.

I dont think most DK are dying to play a more viable healer, having coag as a really good burst heal, and being tanky plus extra weapon damage is enough, and the added wd buildup overtime is already gonna increase dk heals anyway. Good enough as is.

I know those changes arent final, just food for thought. Healing potential is the main thing for all classes yall need to avoid buffing.

I also think that was a good Q&A stream

I'm particularly very glad that ZOS is taking that more proactive approach and reworking classes. There's been too many cheap bandaid fixes, specially with subclassing.

I was pretty positive about subclassing at first, but right now I really would prefer for it to be rolled back. If ZOS thinks they can fix it by working on the classes themselves... well, good luck. Regardless of whether it works to improve subclassing or not, the classes are long overdue a thorough look.

I'm fine with the class refreshes being prioritized by how dated they look and feel. Dragonknight skills really do look terrible. Not to mention they present a really bad first impression to any new players.

How will doing this one at a time address the lack of power from each pure class? Will pure classes get specific pure class buffs? if they stay with 2/3 lines or 3/3 lines will they get buffs that bring them up to a meta subclassed build?

Cuz i dont think tweaking just the classes here is going to fix the core issue.

Сan you clarify—did I hear correctly that they explained we can’t just go and balance the classes and multiclassing, because it’s also a long process, and you can’t simply change the numbers, you also have to communicate with visual specialists?

manukartofanu wrote: »

Сan you clarify—did I hear correctly that they explained we can’t just go and balance the classes and multiclassing, because it’s also a long process, and you can’t simply change the numbers, you also have to communicate with visual specialists?

If you want to change the duration, delay, or speed of any channeled, cast time or projectile skill, you have to work on the animation to match the new duration. Which is likely done by a different team.

But don't read their words so literally. What they mean is that changes to combat can sometimes result in changes having to be done in other areas. Animation, audio, code, server, etc. This is just a normal part of game development.

StihlReign wrote: »

The 15m AOE for the DK appears to be too large, restoring Stamina from DK heavy attacks sounds a bit over the top, and stuns that cannot be blocked or dodged never feel like good gameplay mechanics.

Somewhat off topic but it's frustrating to me that dk gets to keep an unblockable/undodgeable stun when nightblade had a skill which was similar removed in 3.2.5 and turned into a heal that worked nothing like the previous skill. It's always been perplexing to me that Agony and morphs got removed but Petrify was deemed acceptable and okay, especially when breaking free of Petrify was always buggy. While I'm not asking for Agony back, it would be nice to have a damage morph of Offering again since npcs still have access to the old Agony and the visuals on that skill were very satisfying (I don't even care if it doesn't have a stun and is just a dot I just miss it). I do agree with you that some mechanics just don't feel fun or fair or healthy, even if they try to balance them and I'd prefer they steer away from those.

As for the other updates and news on things, I'd rather lurk a bit longer before putting my thoughts together.

mattaeus01b16_ESO wrote: »

I think you need to keep in mind that the Gatekeepers are ruining the show.

IF you put in the work, you need to be rewarded. No reward = No incentive

ZoS knows this... They do it with every update! LITERALLY. You need to keep the mouse wheel rolling or the little critters with run off in other directions.

I see people complain that "well, I don't like it there for it shouldn't be a thing"
Or "I don't want to have to subclass to be able to finish content"
Or... and the best "Its not fair that people are better then me, so you need to make my game play style better because I refuse to put in the work

THEY NEVER MADE THE CONTENT HARDER!
If you are unable to clear content with your setup/build and blame it on sub-classing... Then you are doing it WRONG.

Watch a video... read skills... use gear sets from cripes sake!!

The only place where SUB-CLASSING really matters in in PVP.
And in this case, I say DUMP IT.
Get rid of it.
TOSS IT INTO THE WIND.

PvP needs to have a level playing field. Or you end up with one side always dominating the other side. And this will drive people away.
And I know... Someone out there is screaming "BUT WHAT ABOUT MY FUN!". If you feel the need to cheese yourself out so you can mow over welps, then may I suggest a single player game with a hand full of cheap-codes, so you can dominate virtually.

While I agree with half of your post, specifically the part referring to PvP, I think it's pretty naive to think that the same doesn't also apply to PvE. Why would any raid group invite you if you are not pulling your weight? You think content didn't get harder? Well, what do you think nerfs do to your ability to complete content? If ZOS' only response to imbalances they caused from adding things like subclassing or the new CP system is by nerfing, then it directly affects your ability to complete content. You can adapt, but if ZOS only nerfs and never buffs, it isn't actually the "gatekeepers" fault but the fault of the requirements to complete that content.

Especially when you consider ZOS' allergic reaction to raid groups finding creative ways to make boss fights easier, like using Mistform in Rockgrove for tanking, then you absolutely can say that they made content harder. No amount of reading skills, watching videos and using gear sets will change the fact that they nerfed skills specifically because they felt that PvE content was being completed too easily - and that despite the vast majority of players still being unable to complete that content.

Finedaible wrote: »

Having watched the stream, I think something isn't right over at the studio. Like, there must be something fundamentally wrong with it. Maybe they are criminally understaffed? This is abnormally slow to enact change and QoL. There's not a single rework in the history of ESO that I can recall ever being properly completed though. Dragging this massive rework over 2-3+ years doesn't look feasible frankly. Do they then design new hardmode content around what the class is, or what it is going to be? What if a change massively hinders or over buffs a class for several major updates? By the time they finally get to the later classes, the whole balance ecosystem will have drastically changed.

Wheeler also claimed on stream that hybridization was still being worked on when we fairly recently received developer comments in a Reddit AuA which would suggest it had been abandoned. What exactly is going on with that? Are there not deadlines with these kind of things? Are we just gonna keep hearing "trust us guys, it's coming!" for years and years indefinitely? Are we being lied to? ESO feels like it has become a Kickstarter project that never delivers despite its monstrous monetization practices.

If they can revitalize ESO to where it becomes enjoyable again, then that will be absolutely fantastic, but will there be anyone left to care by the time they finish it? IF they finish it?... Idk man, there's already over a decade of unfulfilled promises and mistrust between Zenimax and players. I've already given up on future Elder Scrolls titles, and this year has been the most unstable year for ESO yet in my eyes. Season pass model has left a sour taste.

I think a more fair way to put this is that the combat team at ZOS has been juggling way too many balls at once.

Maybe I'm just assuming things, but I wouldn't be surprised if things like Arcanist, Scribing, and Subclassing took up a lot of development time. And in order to hit the strict deadlines for those features, they gave a much lower priority to hybridization.

I think ZOS sticking so strictly to these self-imposed deadlines and restrictions is what's been hurting the game these past few years.

Why does a problem discovered and acknowledged in the PTS not get fixed before launch? Becase fixing it now would require delaying launch a week. So instead it gets scheduled for later. It bet it must suck for ZOS devs to see the forums complain about an issue that might already been fixed, but can't be released until weeks later.

Why was the plot of Legacy of the Bretons underwhelming? Because ZOS forced themselves to end each chapter with a "We win! But the true villain is still out there...", which makes the first half of the story feeling pointless and "forces" ZOS to rush the ending.

Why did the Writhing Wall have so many bugs that were fixed in the first 2-5 days? Why not just delay the event a week? Because delaying would mean delaying the Witches Festival, which would mean delaying the Daedric War celebration, which would mean delaying New Life, which would mean delaying Whitestreaks... etc etc.

The article and Q&A gave me a lot more hope than previous updates. I think ZOS really is starting to recognize that their rush to get things released on schedule is forcing them to release too much unfinished stuff.

That's also why I'm ok with it being done one class at a time. We already know what it looks like when ZOS tries to tackle every skill all at once. It's understandably messy. I'd rather have the class refresh for DK finished and released, than 3 half-finished classes or 7 bandaid fixes.