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ZoS please tell me you are sending cease and desist letters to these bot websites.
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Squishy✭✭✭For the botters in Europe/USA, then legal actions can be taken against each botters, same principle applies, they're unlikely to go thru free proxies/VPN as those are completely unreliable. A freelance botter is also unlikely to have a large amount of stolen credit cards, so permanent bans will eventually rid us of those small pests
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It is to be noted that most VPN provided are either well known, or have vpn(or proxy) in their domain name, and as far as I know, many of those could get blocked on the ISP level for Zeni. Many VPN providers/proxy providers are already blacklisted, since they are also used by spammers and other unworthy individuals, so simply applying mail domain blocks for known spammer's VLANs would also purge a fair amount of dirty networks.
Since I was able to connect thru one of those vpn providers, I assume this is not place."In 2014, a possible bot was sent to coldharbour by a military GM for a crime she didn't commit. This argonian promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Ebonheart underground. Today, still wanted by the developers she survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a bot problem, if no one else can bite you, and if you can find her....maybe you can hire The SQUISHY."1 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
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Then there needs to be some legal difference made, games companies need to bring some kind of action down on them...it's only going to get worse and it hits them in THEIR pockets, so you'd think they'd care.AlexDougherty wrote: »
It's not illegal because judges don't want to shut down mods completely, like the lightsaber mod in skyrim (loved that), and their is no legal difference between a mod and a bot.Why is this stuff not illegal? Why don't games companies simply write a clause into the TOS that prevents people from commercially benefiting from the game or something? If the company is in such a country that magically exempts them them they shouldn't be allowed to play.
As for including a clause in the TOS, well certain countries like Germany have ruled that TOS are unlawful and therefore not binding (why, don't ask, just don't).
Edit~ I have no problems with TOS btw
If the TOS is illegal in Germany then just ban that country from playing, till they fix their laws. Sorry Germany, but your laws are stupid.
Edited by babylon on May 16, 2014 9:22AM0 -
All that I ask is that they keep putting attention into banning these botting and spamming accounts.
Was upset to see the same bot stream I was reporting lastnight still going today. Flying bots were added today. Someone said a GM had popped in and killed the bots/accounts 10 minutes before I got there (last night)
It was a stream that might have been 100's of bots visits each 5 minutes heading to Thane Mera Stormcloak in Windhelm.. levelling up. Then running off to do some pick up stuff quest.
The ones I saw today were pathing through the air..0 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
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The reason the is no difference is they are both independent modifications to games, I suspect that any terminology that will stand up before programmers will confuse the living daylights out of lawyers and judges, and vice versa.Then there needs to be some legal difference made, games companies need to bring some kind of action down on them...it's only going to get worse and it hits them in THEIR pockets, so you'd think they'd care.
If the TOS is illegal in Germany then just ban that country from playing, till they fix their laws. Sorry Germany, but your laws are stupid.
Short of having a special Computer Court, where judges and lawyers are both lawyer and programmer, no advances on the legal difference will be made. And you would have to have these courts in every country, or they won't be effective.
As for banning Germany from the game, not legally feasible, for a large number of reasons. Remember USA has to deal with EU as a whole and as seperate countries, and EU would respond to a blanket ban of one it's members with an embargo on USA (yes really).
As for Germany's laws being stupid, on this issue I agree.
People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule0 -
KerinKor✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yes, it's called copyright law and so far one (Blizzard which I know a lot about) and another I'd not heard about until today (Square Enix) have succeeded in 15+ years of RMT.
Surely there's something legal that can be brought down on these guys.AlexDougherty wrote: »Square-Enix won that lawsuit on a technicality, the bot broke copyright laws, they did not win on the basis that gold-selling is illegal.
Since then the Gold-sellers and bot-makers have moved to countries where Copyright is just a collection of letters. Sending Cease and desist letters would do no good, because they can't prosecute under the laws of those countries.
Please remember US law only applies to the USA, not these countries that I'm carefully avoiding naming.
First, there's nothing 'illegal' about it, there are no criminal laws that make botting in a video game an offense, nor any which make profiting from such activity a criminal offense.
So forget criminal laws prohibiting actions, the concept doesn't apply.
That leaves you Civil lawsuits, the key basis of which is having to show damage, and this is the problem: just what damage does ZOS suffer, LEGALLY?
Moreover, in order to file a suit you need to find a defendant who is in a legal jurisdiction that will accept such a suit: China for example isn't such a place.
The fact that the only legal wins againt RMT/botters were based on breaches of Copyright law should tell you something: probably the best legal minds in the gaming industry and their big-media corporate sugar daddys have failed in over 15 years to find a way to legally go after RMT or the writers of the bots they use, with two and only two exceptions.
It's easy to THINK it's 'illegal' it's almost impossible to win a case proving it.
Edited by KerinKor on May 16, 2014 9:56AM0 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭First, there's nothing 'illegal' about it, there are no criminal laws that make botting in a video game an offense, nor any which make profiting from such activity a criminal offense.
The games companies need to get together and make it illegal. It's hitting them in their pockets, by making their customers leave the game in frustration (not being able to play the game because our resources are sucked dry/the bosses are farmed, and the place looks ghetto...and the games companies respond by nerfing OUR drops which cause us the customers even more frustration).
No law is a law until it's made a law.
Edited by babylon on May 16, 2014 10:02AM0 -
KerinKor✭✭✭✭✭
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LOL.First, there's nothing 'illegal' about it, there are no criminal laws that make botting in a video game an offense, nor any which make profiting from such activity a criminal offense.
The games companies need to get together and make it illegal. It's hitting them in their pockets, by making their customers leave the game in frustration (not being able to play the game because our resources are sucked dry/the bosses are farmed, and the place looks ghetto...and the games companies respond by nerfing OUR drops which cause us the customers even more frustration).
Sorry, but that is truly amusing. Just how do you propose the games companies "make it illegal".
No, seriously, what warped sense of the legal process do you have that prompted you to think this is possible?
Edited by KerinKor on May 16, 2014 10:04AM0 -
Gelston✭✭✭
As for banning Germany from the game, not legally feasible, for a large number of reasons. Remember USA has to deal with EU as a whole and as seperate countries, and EU would respond to a blanket ban of one it's members with an embargo on USA (yes really).
As for Germany's laws being stupid, on this issue I agree.
The EU wouldn't embargo the USA if a game company in the USA decided to not sell its product in Germany. I think what the other poster meant was not selling the game there, anyways.
Edited by Gelston on May 16, 2014 10:05AM0 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
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They do some footwork ffs. How do you think any law gets made a law? Someone gets some support together among groups of people and inside the government, then things happen.
LOL.First, there's nothing 'illegal' about it, there are no criminal laws that make botting in a video game an offense, nor any which make profiting from such activity a criminal offense.
The games companies need to get together and make it illegal. It's hitting them in their pockets, by making their customers leave the game in frustration (not being able to play the game because our resources are sucked dry/the bosses are farmed, and the place looks ghetto...and the games companies respond by nerfing OUR drops which cause us the customers even more frustration).
Sorry, but that is truly amusing. Just how do you propose the games companies "make it illegal".
No, seriously, what warped sense of the legal process do you have that prompted you to think this is possible?
What vacuum do you live in that you don't understand this?
Edited by babylon on May 16, 2014 10:06AM0 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah, I overstated it a bit, got mixed up in my head between the company blocking germany, and USA blocking Germany's websites.
As for banning Germany from the game, not legally feasible, for a large number of reasons. Remember USA has to deal with EU as a whole and as seperate countries, and EU would respond to a blanket ban of one it's members with an embargo on USA (yes really).
As for Germany's laws being stupid, on this issue I agree.
The EU wouldn't embargo the USA if a game company in the USA decided to not sell its product in Germany. I think what the other poster meant was not selling the game there, anyways.
But EU would overreact, and it would end up as International Politics.
People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule0 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
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What you don't understand is the phrase "Legal Framework", all laws have to exist within the legal framework of their country. Sometimes a new law expands/changes said framework, but this change would require a total rebuild of it.They do some footwork ffs. How do you think any law gets made a law? Someone gets some support together among groups of people and inside the government, then things happen.
What vacuum do you live in that you don't understand this?
The prospect of making such sweeping changes, plus lawsuits as initial errors are made, is so terrifying that nobody in their rightmind would want the task. In fact it's so bad that given the choice of doing this, and telling a group of people with powerful backing "sorry it's not happening, ever", most politicians/Judges/attorneys/etc would be saying "sorry" before you finish your first sentence.
People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule0 -
ausmack2014✭✭✭Gold farming in video games is legal in Australia. True story.
In fact, its listed as taxable income, or it was according to a News report back in 2013.
Edited by ausmack2014 on May 16, 2014 11:01AM0 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »
So if I play in the same house as someone else who plays, I get banned?
Yep. And then ZMO gets sued by legitimate businesses for damages. I wish people understood that when you see an apparently simple solution to a long-standing and seemingly intractable problem - it's not that you're a genius it's that you don't actually understand the problem.
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Diakos✭You just need a player commune that instructs players how to legally pressure gold-seller sites and their ISP's.
Choking the sites with junk traffic will bloat their expenses, and negatively impact other client of the ISP generally leading to their contract being cancelled.
Make it expensive to sell gold and make it undesirable to have them as clients.0 -
Then there needs to be some legal difference made, games companies need to bring some kind of action down on them...it's only going to get worse and it hits them in THEIR pockets, so you'd think they'd care.AlexDougherty wrote: »
It's not illegal because judges don't want to shut down mods completely, like the lightsaber mod in skyrim (loved that), and their is no legal difference between a mod and a bot.Why is this stuff not illegal? Why don't games companies simply write a clause into the TOS that prevents people from commercially benefiting from the game or something? If the company is in such a country that magically exempts them them they shouldn't be allowed to play.
As for including a clause in the TOS, well certain countries like Germany have ruled that TOS are unlawful and therefore not binding (why, don't ask, just don't).
Edit~ I have no problems with TOS btw
If the TOS is illegal in Germany then just ban that country from playing, till they fix their laws. Sorry Germany, but your laws are stupid.
That's a brilliant idea. Why didn't zenimax come up with this, this would totally resolve the entire botting Problem.
You Sir are a genius. Where can i hire your services
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tinythinker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'd drop a MASSIVE turd on the botters keyboard
Current front-runner for most original solution offered so far, but way out on the impractical/unlikely end of the spectrum.
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Orizuru✭✭✭ed.radleyrwb17_ESO wrote: »All that I ask is that they keep putting attention into banning these botting and spamming accounts.
Was upset to see the same bot stream I was reporting lastnight still going today. Flying bots were added today. Someone said a GM had popped in and killed the bots/accounts 10 minutes before I got there (last night)
It was a stream that might have been 100's of bots visits each 5 minutes heading to Thane Mera Stormcloak in Windhelm.. levelling up. Then running off to do some pick up stuff quest.
The ones I saw today were pathing through the air..
If they banned bots right away when they are reported then less bots end up getting banned in the long run. Once a bot is identified, they can observe it's behavior over a period of time before banning it. When you observe hundreds of bots over the same period of time, you can begin to look for patterns of behavior that are similar between all the bots. Then they can use these patterns to better detect other bots in the future.
This is ZOS's first MMO, so it's they have no experience with dealing with bots. Other companies are not going to share their knowledge on how to deal with them because it's considered Intellectual Property and gives them an edge over companies like ZOS that do not have the same level of experience dealing with bots. We have to give ZOS time to learn the patterns so they can not only ban the bots that are being reported, but also detect and ban the bots that haven't been reported.
If ZOS provides too much information to us, the players, on how they are dealing with bots and how they plan to deal with them going forward, then the people making the bots get that information as well and can update their botting programs to better avoid detection.
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Noswell✭✭✭tinythinker wrote: »
I dunno, I think Kickstarter has already funded a few very similar projects. Might be worth a shot.0 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Braumeisterlein wrote: »
Then there needs to be some legal difference made, games companies need to bring some kind of action down on them...it's only going to get worse and it hits them in THEIR pockets, so you'd think they'd care.AlexDougherty wrote: »
It's not illegal because judges don't want to shut down mods completely, like the lightsaber mod in skyrim (loved that), and their is no legal difference between a mod and a bot.Why is this stuff not illegal? Why don't games companies simply write a clause into the TOS that prevents people from commercially benefiting from the game or something? If the company is in such a country that magically exempts them them they shouldn't be allowed to play.
As for including a clause in the TOS, well certain countries like Germany have ruled that TOS are unlawful and therefore not binding (why, don't ask, just don't).
Edit~ I have no problems with TOS btw
If the TOS is illegal in Germany then just ban that country from playing, till they fix their laws. Sorry Germany, but your laws are stupid.
That's a brilliant idea. Why didn't zenimax come up with this, this would totally resolve the entire botting Problem.
You Sir are a genius. Where can i hire your services
So your suggestion is to just roll over and pee on yourself? GG.0 -
hauke✭✭✭tos in germany are not illegal they are naught if 1. they are made after the deal as your not allowed to modify a contract one sided, 2nd if the are not in compliance with customer protection laws. contract is binding on transfer of money. most tos are only presented to customers after the deal, so not illegal, simply naughtEdited by hauke on May 17, 2014 12:23AM0