Multiclassing was the biggest oof. (edited rant)

SneaK · October 5

shadyjane62 wrote: »

Eleven years a pure Templar. Don't know if I will last another eleven minutes.

Subclassing without question the worst thing ever to happen to this game. [snip]
[edited for bashing]

This is depressing.

Asdara · October 5

manukartofanu · October 5

kargen27 wrote: »

Steam is just a very small part of the population and no other data is made public.

That’s not true. There was an official statement that ESO has around 20 million accounts. At the same time, according to various estimates, 4–6 million copies have been sold on Steam. So at least 20% of the player base is on Steam — which is not a very small part of the population at all.

kargen27 · 12:56AM

Blackyack wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Blackyack wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I decided to use an alternate character to level up some lines for subclassing. I picked one that hadn't done any public dungeon quests and then went around doing them. It is rare I go into a public dungeon and don't see at least a couple of other players running around.
Maybe population is down but I'm still seeing quite a few players when I'm out doing my thing. I'm still having fun and it seems so are quite a few other players.
Sorry you are not.

thanks for the sympathy, but your anecdotal evidence is spurious at best. population is way down, off preceding lows. Saying your still enjoying it is fine for you, but its also loaded if your trying to assess statistics and evidence. Of course the people remaining have stayed for their own reasons, and i would never try to take that from you, but you're not who i'm talking about at all. I'm talking about all the people that aren't here anymore, and some of the obvious reasons why.

I don't go into public dungeons for anything really, and while that's cool that is your challenge level, it's not mine, nor the literal legion of people who have left and are phasing out of this game. you can be happy with it, I am not. I've leveled all the lines I want, I have a bazillion hours into this game with 2 or 3 of every class. Gilded sets of everything from meta DD through all the supports. a respectable number of trifectas for my efforts, a few gaps still that I would have liked to check off, but not like this. not at all. and I'm hardly alone, as evidenced by the continual population decline. the endgame is so tweaked right now its ridiculous.

So, again, I'm truly happy for you, but please don't present this situation as fine, and everyone agrees its fine, when its not. the numbers speak volumes. the lack of people complaining isn't a good indication of a problem, but the lack of people at all is.

Other than seeing players in game there are no statistics or evidence. Steam is just a very small part of the population and no other data is made public. So all we have to go on is what we see in game. I see players in game. And you are assuming quite a bit. I said I was using an alternate character to level sub class skill lines and decided to do it with public dungeon quests. I also PvP and was in a top PvP guild and ran with their elite group. I've finished hard mode in most trials and dungeons and still enjoy doing all that. Have a few trifectas but not many. Will probably get more but for now am helping with a progression team. On one account I have twenty characters all geared and skilled out for at least two roles and have several characters on my 2nd account at various levels.
I've had friends leave the game for a variety of reasons but I also have added friends. Sorry you are having a different experience but your experience doesn't prove a decline in the game any more than my experience proves it is thriving. I didn't say everything is fine or that all others think the game is fine. I pointed out my experience is different than yours and the game might not be bad just because you are having a bad time. Maybe you just reached the point where you need a break.

ok sure. the population is fine and thriving! The guild traders are certainly making as much as they ever did! Hakeijos are everywhere for purchase and do not require searching TTC online. Grahtwood has at least as many players as ever on a Sunday afternoon! The endgame discords are definitely as full as ever!
( i have to lol slightly at myself, as i type this, in grahtwood, someone is offering 88 hekiejo in zone)

Guild traders are still suffering from the large supplies brought in by all the 10th year anniversary events and the economy was due for a correction anyway. I'll give you that Imperial City isn't in a good place right now. I've suggested things I think would make it popular again but for now not much reason for most players to go there. Don't know about Sunday afternoon but Saturday night I saw a decent amount of players around the traders when I visited.
I'm not saying the population is as strong as ever. I am saying your experience isn't any better or worse for determining the health of the game than mine and neither of us know what the numbers actually are.

reazea · 1:58AM

I think multiclassing was ZOS giving up on developing a new class. So they just did the "one pan breakfast" thing and called it good. Now they're just never going to worry about it again.

I fear very much vengeance is the same treatment for Cyrodiil.

RobZha · 2:28AM

I don't mind subclassing at all, apart from two things, 1) if it's going to work there should be plenty of decent builds that people can make, if not it defeats the entire point. 2) The base classes shouldn't be nerfed or left way less powerful.

They might have a clue how to sort some of this out with something they already did : with scribing, certain combinations aren't allowed to be chosen. They could do similar with skills/passives when they're combined in some ways but instead of not allowing them just make them less powerful or something (only when subclassing is chosen though.) Then give the base classes a boost, even if it's a type of boost to some passives and skills that only works if the classes don't use subclassing.

I'm sure that could be a nightmare to work out and there'd probably be a good number of messed up things happening if it was tried, but if they did it and had patience, then refined it over several patches as they checked player feedback it could end up better than what we have now.

Artem_gig · 9:54AM

CP5 wrote: »

Artem_gig wrote: »

[snip] The only ones to blame are those who don't see anything but the meta and force others to use it, but I'll tell you a secret: TESO isn't about the meta. It's about the uniqueness of characters. And the more opportunities there are for diversity, the more likely it is that you'll find the most effective one. Are the developers to blame? No, because balance is impossible. [snip] The division into classes didn't allow you to be who you wanted to be. When will you understand what this game is about, stop aiming for the meta! Play for fun and collect what you want to be.

Consider this. In end game content, when a player needs to get a reasonable amount of power out of their character, if the most effective tactic available features a long range, high damage ability that also offers a large amount of survivability, how might ZOS develop that content? More ambient damage to challenge Fatecarver shields, more cleave demanding fights to buffer the beam's damage. And if ZOS keeps making content that is intended to be challenging, and this meta remains in place with this much of an advantage over all other builds, how might non-meta builds fair in those new pieces of content? If your build doesn't have that level of cleave, that level of innate survivability without sacrificing damage, how enjoyable is the content for you? The meta isn't just how players play the game, it's how ZOS designs the content, you can be casual in much of the game's content, but in the serious content this is very important, and those design decisions will trickle down to easier difficulties.
[edited to remove quote]

"In end-game content, when a player needs to get a reasonable amount of power out of their character" You don't need that! Stop! The game doesn't need 180k damage. It doesn't even need 100. But for some reason, you think you have to have the highest stats. If the game had a skill that put you in a clown costume, but in return, you would deal 999999999 damage, you clowns would use that skill. And they blamed ZOS for it. Because you don't like wearing a clown costume. So don't use the skill. You don't need that much damage. Play the skills you like, make an interesting character, not the most effective one. Multiclassing allows you to create anyone you want, so why are you complaining about losing your identity when you don't allow yourself to have it? They gave you the opportunity to expand your options instead of just one class, but you're complaining that there's only one class in the game. But no, it's you who is being led by numbers. Play for fun, not for numbers.

Artem_gig · 10:07AM

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Artem_gig wrote: »

[snip] The only ones to blame are those who don't see anything but the meta and force others to use it, but I'll tell you a secret: TESO isn't about the meta. It's about the uniqueness of characters. And the more opportunities there are for diversity, the more likely it is that you'll find the most effective one. Are the developers to blame? No, because balance is impossible. [snip] The division into classes didn't allow you to be who you wanted to be. When will you understand what this game is about, stop aiming for the meta! Play for fun and collect what you want to be.

Out of curiosity, how much experience do you have for the "you can bring any build you want to high-level content and it'll be great!" idea? Particularly when thinking about "high-level content" as vRG HM and above?

Honestly, I don't feel like responding to same argument time and time again. Lemme just quote from a different thread:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I’m over the “but but but you don’t have to play meta!” argument we see everywhere, even from the devs. It reeks of someone who doesn’t touch endgame content trying to explain endgame content to people who are very experienced in that.

The meta build is obscenely more powerful than anything else, full stop. If you are not bringing the meta, you are coming to your group admitting that you are playing in self-nerf mode and that you don’t care about them enough to contribute properly.

There is a difference between "perfect balance is impossible" (which is true) and "the balance is so bad that one single setup is easily 50% more effective than the second best" (which is currently also true). Are you implying that it's impossible to narrow that gap? And the Combat Team, since Subclassing dropped, has tried the following to balance the game:
neuter DK sustain

force Sorcs to use pets (partially reverted)

disallow ultigen passives from stacking

throw a single bone to Necros in U48

...that's about it. Are you suggesting that this is a sufficient amount of work done to balance the game because "lol it's impossible"

If the game wasn't made for people who play endgame, then why does it have endgame activities!?!?! The game is made for all of us. Balancing Subclassing would not have made your life any different, and you could still have picked and chosen whatever build you wanted. But the way it came out completely decimated endgame and started driving them off.

...I'm sure you don't care about the exodus of endgamers though. Because you think that ESO, like Skyrim, will always be there for you to solo with. So go ahead, try to play Legends right now and tell us how that goes.
Because ESO, like Legends, is a live-service server-based game, unlike the TES mainline games. That means once enough players leave and Microsoft decided it's unprofitable, that they'll pull the plug. I'm shocked to see the number of people who play ESO exclusively solo who celebrate endgamers getting fed up and leaving, because every person who leaves is one fewer thread keeping ESO active. It's like you're celebrating the very thing that'll kill what you love too.
[edited to remove quote]

You're right about everything, except for one thing. Endgame doesn't need meta either. Endgame can be played without meta, and it's more interesting because the mechanics are not skipped. You don't need these damage numbers for Endgame. Instead of criticizing ZoS for adding multi-class, you should criticize them for making the game more difficult by focusing on meta. However, I highly doubt that they are actually creating content based on meta. After all, they constantly stream how they complete veteran content using completely different builds. All they need is communication and knowledge of mechanics. Not casual damage numbers.

Last'One · 10:17AM

Artem_gig wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Artem_gig wrote: »

[snip] The only ones to blame are those who don't see anything but the meta and force others to use it, but I'll tell you a secret: TESO isn't about the meta. It's about the uniqueness of characters. And the more opportunities there are for diversity, the more likely it is that you'll find the most effective one. Are the developers to blame? No, because balance is impossible. [snip] The division into classes didn't allow you to be who you wanted to be. When will you understand what this game is about, stop aiming for the meta! Play for fun and collect what you want to be.

Consider this. In end game content, when a player needs to get a reasonable amount of power out of their character, if the most effective tactic available features a long range, high damage ability that also offers a large amount of survivability, how might ZOS develop that content? More ambient damage to challenge Fatecarver shields, more cleave demanding fights to buffer the beam's damage. And if ZOS keeps making content that is intended to be challenging, and this meta remains in place with this much of an advantage over all other builds, how might non-meta builds fair in those new pieces of content? If your build doesn't have that level of cleave, that level of innate survivability without sacrificing damage, how enjoyable is the content for you? The meta isn't just how players play the game, it's how ZOS designs the content, you can be casual in much of the game's content, but in the serious content this is very important, and those design decisions will trickle down to easier difficulties.
[edited to remove quote]

"In end-game content, when a player needs to get a reasonable amount of power out of their character" You don't need that! Stop! The game doesn't need 180k damage. It doesn't even need 100. But for some reason, you think you have to have the highest stats. If the game had a skill that put you in a clown costume, but in return, you would deal 999999999 damage, you clowns would use that skill. And they blamed ZOS for it. Because you don't like wearing a clown costume. So don't use the skill. You don't need that much damage. Play the skills you like, make an interesting character, not the most effective one. Multiclassing allows you to create anyone you want, so why are you complaining about losing your identity when you don't allow yourself to have it? They gave you the opportunity to expand your options instead of just one class, but you're complaining that there's only one class in the game. But no, it's you who is being led by numbers. Play for fun, not for numbers.

Well, you’re actually not far from what fun should be. But let’s be honest, ESO hasn’t been about fun for a long time. It’s all about numbers now.
I completely agree with you, and I’m one of those players who plays the way I want, not the way others demand.
And the price for that? Getting gatekept, rejected, kicked, or flat-out excluded, more times than I can even count.
And I’m not alone. This happens to a lot of players who just want to enjoy the game their own way.

But here’s the reality: if you want to “fit in” these days, you have to play the beam. Otherwise, you’re not getting invited. Period.

Solo play? It’s not fun anymore for veterans, we can clear everything with lv.1 gear. There’s no challenge left.
Multiplayer? It’s a toxic mix of frustration, elitism, and number-chasing.
The game lost its heart. It’s not about adventure or creativity anymore, it’s about spreadsheets and DPS meters.

Malprave · 10:33AM

Totally valid post. Nothing wrong with beam builds, I have one for all seven of my characters. I have other builds as well, but they just can’t compete with the beam builds.
Beam builds should be an option but not the best option. They’re fun at first but after a bit they do make me want to quit playing. They’re too easy and ultimately boring. Whatever happened to that “risk vs. reward” crap Zos used to peddle all the time?
All that’s required here is balancing. But what seems like a flat refusal to do it is baffling.

Gabriel_H · 11:09AM

CP5 wrote: »

Consider this. In end game content, when a player needs to get a reasonable amount of power out of their character, if the most effective tactic available features a long range, high damage ability that also offers a large amount of survivability, how might ZOS develop that content? More ambient damage to challenge Fatecarver shields, more cleave demanding fights to buffer the beam's damage. And if ZOS keeps making content that is intended to be challenging, and this meta remains in place with this much of an advantage over all other builds, how might non-meta builds fair in those new pieces of content? If your build doesn't have that level of cleave, that level of innate survivability without sacrificing damage, how enjoyable is the content for you? The meta isn't just how players play the game, it's how ZOS designs the content, you can be casual in much of the game's content, but in the serious content this is very important, and those design decisions will trickle down to easier difficulties.

If the hardest content in the game is designed around a 120k parse, and the meta gives a 180k parse, how many viable builds are there?

For the content: Dozens if not hundreds.
For the players: One

That is a player problem, not a ZOS design problem - though I will caveat that ZOS should be taking account of the almost cult like behaviour of min/maxers in their design.