Multiclassing needs serious balancing. (edited rant)

Charon_on_Vacation

subclassing was never meant to be balanced.
it was made available so the casual crowd has more options to create characters.
it has certain goals in mind, but balance isn't one of them.
from the get go it was very clear that zos would not be able and will not put in the resources needed to balance an addition like that.

Ph1p

Khaeon wrote: »

Look, you want balance? The only way you will EVER get balance is any MMO is if you make all of the classes cookie cutters and mirror each skill with the same DPS so Fatecarver would do 5k damage, Puncturing Sweeps would do 5k damager so on and so on. None of you would want that because there would be no diversity and uniqueness to each class so either way all you guys do it complain.

To the OP, I don't know what to tell you. I also play BG's and just like you I am not the best at it but when I play every day I do not see to many Arcanist running around and when we do we just interrupt them once the beam starts and then they are dead. The only time I get caught by an Arcanist is if I am not paying attention. This is a skill issue for you.

With subclassing, it is no different than before than it arrived. You could only do high end content if you were a certain class with specific gear and what ever else they wanted. It was then and still is now toxic. PVP is the same, you had to figure out what skills they were using against you and find a way to counter it. The only difference now if you have no idea what skills they have until they hit you with it, then you have to figure out how to counter it.

Honestly I am shocked about the complaining of subclassing in PVP when there are countless other things to complain about like having all of both your stamina and magicka drained in one second to be completely helpless and get one shotted.

Stop complaining about subclassing, it has made the game much, much better and I came back to the game because of it.

This is a red herring. No one is looking for PERFECT balance, which can indeed only be achieved if each class has functionally the same skills, just with different colors and names. But there are ways to implement multi-classing without the rampant power creep we've seen. The PTS forum was full of practical ideas, which could have reined in the power of subclassed builds while still allowing for the variation and excitement that brought you back to the game.

For example, one major source of power creep is the stacking of role-specific passives, e.g., by picking 3 DPS-heavy skill lines with their respective bonuses. ZOS could have reworked the passives system to scale with the number of active class skill lines. They could have moved passives around to strengthen less frequently picked skill lines. People made tons of suggestions. Easy fixes that would have rewarded pure classes and introduced an actual trade-off for subclassing, while subclassed builds would still gain power from meta abilities and synergistic skill lines.

Would there still be a "meta"? Of course! Would it be as far ahead of all the builds that people were playing before? No, and that's the point. Again, nobody expects each class or subclass to perform within 0.01% of each other, so stop pretending like this is what critics of subclassing are asking for. But ZOS put so little effort into balancing, thereby signaling - intentionally or not - that they didn't care about this issue enough. That's what's turning many people away: The seeming lack of effort and the disregard of constructive balancing suggestions.

Ironic really, given how their infamous U35 wanted to "quell some of the obscene damage production at the high end".

PS: I never played much PVP, so can't comment on the impact of subclassing there. But if PVP has "countless other things to complain about", are you really surprised that people complain when an unbalanced, half-baked multi-classing feature is tossed on top of all the existing issues?

Ph1p

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

subclassing was never meant to be balanced.
it was made available so the casual crowd has more options to create characters.
it has certain goals in mind, but balance isn't one of them.
from the get go it was very clear that zos would not be able and will not put in the resources needed to balance an addition like that.

Source

Blackyack

Khaeon wrote: »

Look, you want balance? The only way you will EVER get balance is any MMO is if you make all of the classes cookie cutters and mirror each skill with the same DPS so Fatecarver would do 5k damage, Puncturing Sweeps would do 5k damager so on and so on. None of you would want that because there would be no diversity and uniqueness to each class so either way all you guys do it complain.

To the OP, I don't know what to tell you. I also play BG's and just like you I am not the best at it but when I play every day I do not see to many Arcanist running around and when we do we just interrupt them once the beam starts and then they are dead. The only time I get caught by an Arcanist is if I am not paying attention. This is a skill issue for you.

With subclassing, it is no different than before than it arrived. You could only do high end content if you were a certain class with specific gear and what ever else they wanted. It was then and still is now toxic. PVP is the same, you had to figure out what skills they were using against you and find a way to counter it. The only difference now if you have no idea what skills they have until they hit you with it, then you have to figure out how to counter it.

Honestly I am shocked about the complaining of subclassing in PVP when there are countless other things to complain about like having all of both your stamina and magicka drained in one second to be completely helpless and get one shotted.

Stop complaining about subclassing, it has made the game much, much better and I came back to the game because of it.

Ooookkkkaaaay. you read half the first paragraph and ran here to post. read the conversation in between.

I'm not complaining about arcs in BGs, so chill. In fact, very little of this thread is about PVP. But, since you want to talk about that- there are too many other insane combinations that you cannot counter, because it's frankly impossible to know what a player is holding anymore. It's not a skill issue not knowing wtf a class is, cause there are no classes. wardens are popping off 25k merc resolves. 35k incaps. Any issue I have isn't about skill, and it's definitley not "the same". PVP is a very secondary issue for me, but it feels kind of disingenous to act like that's going great. You like multiclassing, cool, good for you. Genuinely, I am happy that you're enjoying it.

I do think it's ironic that you want to hammer on the toxicity of trials players and then call my pvp ability a skill issue, with nothing in tow but attitude.

With subclassing it's wildly different than before. idk why you would say it's the same. People trialed with a variety of metas, or competetive near metas, and various classes were desired or necessary because they had something no one else had. Now, anyone in any role can have anything, which is theoretically cool, BUT if anyone had thought about it for 15 seconds then they would have realised that this would completely exacerbate the homogenaeity in trials. the current meta is waaaay more powerful than anything else available. it just does too many thing too well to be ignored. idk. that's not balanced. Saying it's impossible is so, so lazy. No one ever expected it to be perfect, just not this imperfect.

idk what to tell you about toxicity in trials, I don't experience that and actively help anyone who is curious. I find the current, seriously diminished, endgame community quite pleasant and helpful. Sure, 4 or 5 years ago, there were some really nasty actors, but all I see now is serious players offering training runs. If you get your feelings hurt in a trial, maybe find a group that will show you how to do it, and dont LFG into stuff above your level.

Major_Mangle

Ph1p wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

subclassing was never meant to be balanced.
it was made available so the casual crowd has more options to create characters.
it has certain goals in mind, but balance isn't one of them.
from the get go it was very clear that zos would not be able and will not put in the resources needed to balance an addition like that.

Source

"Experiment and make cool things".....proceeds to flail --> flail --> beam like everyone been doing for the previous 4 patches...

Charon_on_Vacation

Ph1p wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

subclassing was never meant to be balanced.
it was made available so the casual crowd has more options to create characters.
it has certain goals in mind, but balance isn't one of them.
from the get go it was very clear that zos would not be able and will not put in the resources needed to balance an addition like that.

Source

that is exactly what i said.
rich just said it in a way that sounded more pleasing.
balance came up, and very quickly it was clear that there will not be an easy way to balance it, so it was kept the way it is.
it isn't balanced right now, and it never will be.

Alchimiste1

.

Khaeon wrote: »

Look, you want balance? The only way you will EVER get balance is any MMO is if you make all of the classes cookie cutters and mirror each skill with the same DPS so Fatecarver would do 5k damage, Puncturing Sweeps would do 5k damager so on and so on. None of you would want that because there would be no diversity and uniqueness to each class so either way all you guys do it complain.

To the OP, I don't know what to tell you. I also play BG's and just like you I am not the best at it but when I play every day I do not see to many Arcanist running around and when we do we just interrupt them once the beam starts and then they are dead. The only time I get caught by an Arcanist is if I am not paying attention. This is a skill issue for you.

With subclassing, it is no different than before than it arrived. You could only do high end content if you were a certain class with specific gear and what ever else they wanted. It was then and still is now toxic. PVP is the same, you had to figure out what skills they were using against you and find a way to counter it. The only difference now if you have no idea what skills they have until they hit you with it, then you have to figure out how to counter it.

Honestly I am shocked about the complaining of subclassing in PVP when there are countless other things to complain about like having all of both your stamina and magicka drained in one second to be completely helpless and get one shotted.

Stop complaining about subclassing, it has made the game much, much better and I came back to the game because of it.

Can you elaborate on , “ having all of your magicka and stamina drained in one second”

Radiate77

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

.

Khaeon wrote: »

Look, you want balance? The only way you will EVER get balance is any MMO is if you make all of the classes cookie cutters and mirror each skill with the same DPS so Fatecarver would do 5k damage, Puncturing Sweeps would do 5k damager so on and so on. None of you would want that because there would be no diversity and uniqueness to each class so either way all you guys do it complain.

To the OP, I don't know what to tell you. I also play BG's and just like you I am not the best at it but when I play every day I do not see to many Arcanist running around and when we do we just interrupt them once the beam starts and then they are dead. The only time I get caught by an Arcanist is if I am not paying attention. This is a skill issue for you.

With subclassing, it is no different than before than it arrived. You could only do high end content if you were a certain class with specific gear and what ever else they wanted. It was then and still is now toxic. PVP is the same, you had to figure out what skills they were using against you and find a way to counter it. The only difference now if you have no idea what skills they have until they hit you with it, then you have to figure out how to counter it.

Honestly I am shocked about the complaining of subclassing in PVP when there are countless other things to complain about like having all of both your stamina and magicka drained in one second to be completely helpless and get one shotted.

Stop complaining about subclassing, it has made the game much, much better and I came back to the game because of it.

Can you elaborate on , “ having all of your magicka and stamina drained in one second”

They are probably talking about getting desynch’d.

thinkaboutit

This is good discussion, I hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears.

aslan06

thinkaboutit wrote: »

This is good discussion, I hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears.

Hope not, considering how bad balance is...
I for one, don't enjoy being one-shot by warden/sorcs.

SneaK

Last'One wrote: »

Short thesis

Elder Scrolls lore repeatedly presents magic as taught, institutionalized, philosophically grounded, and morally charged. Different schools, orders, and traditions train mages in specific arts with distinct aims, taboos, and worldviews. Permitting one character to fully master opposing traditions (for example Necromancy and Templar-style Divine/Restoration magic) ignores those institutions, historical conflicts, and ideological incompatibilities — it would be a major lore break, not just a gameplay choice.

Evidence & argument (with sources)

1. Magic is institutionalized and specialized — formal schools and colleges train mages in particular disciplines
   The College of Winterhold (and older equivalents like the Mages Guild) is an explicit example of how magical learning in Tamriel is structured: apprentices, masters, halls of study, and disciplines are the norm. Mages are trained and tested in specific arts rather than being casual jack-of-all-trades practitioners. Allowing a single character to be a full master of all opposing class traditions would conflict with how Tamrielic institutions actually work.
   
2. Necromancy is a distinct, specialized, and often forbidden discipline with its own mindset and costs
   The in-universe text On Necromancy (and multiple lore summaries) emphasize that animating the dead requires a very particular mindset — calm, disciplined intent — and that necromancy carries spiritual and moral costs; it’s treated as distinct from general conjuration or ‘everyday’ magic. Necromancy in Tamriel has a strong taboo component and a clear identity. That identity isn’t neutral or interchangeable with other schools.
   
3. Templars (and “Divine” magic users) represent an opposite moral/philosophical pole
   The Templar tradition (as presented in ESO lore) channels the powers of light, the sun, and restoration — they are framed as defenders, healers, and arguable opponents of “dark” arts. Their role is explicitly to smite or banish what they see as unholy or corrupt. Equipping the same character with both full Templar and full Necromancer arsenals collapses two antagonistic moral traditions into one persona, which the lore does not support.
   
4. Historical examples show the consequences of crossing traditions — and that crossover is rare and narratively exceptional
   Mannimarco (the King of Worms) is a canonical example: originally an Altmer who had connections with the Psijic Order and other formal magisteria, he ultimately embraced necromancy and founded cults around that art. Mannimarco’s arc is told as extreme, scandalous, and world-shaping — not as a model of standard mage training. That rarity underlines how exceptional (and lore-breaking if normalized) true cross-specialization would be. In short: exceptional individuals exist, but the lore treats them as anomalies whose actions have huge consequences.
   
5. Many magical orders teach a philosophy, not only technique — Psijics emphasize restraint and a different ethic
   The Psijic Order and similar groups teach attitudes toward magic (e.g., precision, wisdom, restraint) that shape what is studied and how it’s practiced. That philosophical training makes wholesale mixing of fundamentally different arts (practical necromancy vs. Psijic/templar ethics) inconsistent without an in-lore explanation for dramatic personal change — which is not the ordinary, default state.

Putting it together — why “full multiclass” is lore-nonsense

1. Institutional training: Tamrielic magic is learned in institutions and traditions (Colleges, Orders, Guilds). Those institutions shape a mage’s toolkit and worldview. A character who is simultaneously a fully trained Templar, Necromancer, and Sorcerer would require impossible concurrent institutional memberships and contradict how those institutions select and train members.
2. Ideological opposition: Templar/Divine magic and Necromancy sit on opposite moral axes — one heals and purges, the other manipulates the dead and violates sacred taboos. Putting both into one “fully-fledged” identity collapses that opposition.
3. Narrative weight of exceptions: When lore does show crossovers (e.g., Mannimarco), they are presented as extreme, transformative, and highly consequential. If full multiclassing were common, those narrative stakes vanish — but the canon treats such crossing as exceptional, not normal.
4. Philosophy and practice mismatch: Orders like the Psijics argue that magic isn’t merely a toolkit but a discipline shaped by ethics and methods. Combining several whole schools in one person would leave these philosophical contradictions unresolved without extensive in-lore justification.

Tamrielic magic is taught in halls and orders with distinct aims and taboos (the College of Winterhold, Psijic Order). Necromancy is a specialized, often forbidden art requiring a singular mindset (On Necromancy), while Templar/Divine arts are explicitly about light, healing, and purging corruption. The canon treats crossover (e.g., Mannimarco) as rare and world-shaking — it doesn’t support a commonplace “I am fully Templar, fully Necromancer, and fully Sorcerer” archetype without breaking lore.

This needs to be posted in every subclass thread, maybe it’s the only argument they’d listen to being they are breaking their own lore.

A Necromancing Templar makes zero sense.

Unholy_Holywarrior

this game wouldnt have any problems if they devoted half as much effort into balance and development as they do into moderating and censoring the forums...
in fact, they should reallocate the manpower from the censor team- er i mean moderation team into the dev team