Multiclassing needs serious balancing. (edited rant)

BardokRedSnow

Maybe its time for "eso classic" lol.

SaffronCitrusflower

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The fact is adding caps to damage would fix the balance issues but people for some reason think that is bad even though it would solve this very issue which is even worse.

Tell why would caps be worse than the balancing issue that is Subclassing? cap DPS per second at 100,000, problem solved, ESO would never have balancing problems ever again.

So essentially the "Vengeance treatment" for PvE where you remove or severely limit any kind of skill progression and merging the ceiling and the floor? Big no to that chief

And Vengeance was good, it was better than regular PvP in Cyrodiil.

Vengeance is a no skill zergfest. The only thing that matters in vengeance in the size of your zerg. And performance during the last couple tests is at best marginally better than regular live. As it stands vengeance has nothing to offer the vast majority of the PvP player base.

Blackyack

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Blackyack wrote: »

It's not "cult like behaivior" to use the best available options. Why do you gold your gear? why do you look for certain sets? You're making an arbitrary line in the sand about what's ok to minmax with and what's not. It's insane, and very self centered. You're literally saying "any minmaxing beyond what I think is ok is ridiculous"

Stop it.

again, you're bringing your version of endgame to other people. Completing an activity is not the same as scoring it. I understand that tons of builds are viable, and that I could, and have, in fact completed all the trials on various classes and builds, in each role.

but that is not the argument here, and it is not the "player problem" detractors seem so bent on making it. I'm talking about trifecta groups, HM content and playing the hardest, fastest least death-y runs. When you want to push the envelope of what the game offers, every skill line and combo should be on the table. I don't want to self select when I'm going for time, I want the game to fair, and hard, and interesting and know that everyone who's doing it has the same non nuclear opportunities.

If it's in game, and anyone can use it, it's a ZOS problem. I didn't code Arc to have Banner and assasination, ZOS did.

Look, I played an arc main for like 3 Updates, just like LITERALLY EVERY OTHER DD. I watched people leave after one patch of arcanist, because of how comically powerful it was. If there was any serious alternative to this meta, people would play it. but there really isn't anything that comes close to being that efficient.

Again, you can play however YOU want. If you want to wear a mix of stam and mag glyphs, go right ahead. I DONT WANT THAT. I'm literally running around in regular vet trials, trying to enjoy myself in this other version of the game I used to love very very much, because I'm not gonna wear a beam anymore, it's like an anchor of boring around my neck.

For the love of Tamriel, @ZOS_Icy @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober make something else competetive or nerf Herald IN A NORMAL WAY. NOT LIKE YOU ALWAYS DO WITH a HUGE NERF HAMMER but like enough that people will still play it but it doesn't trivialize mechs or put out the best numbers for all your arcanist centric fantasy fights.

Since we will never get the multiclassing cat back in the bag, PLEASE balance these skill lines. its so ridiculous what's happening right now.

And again the flawed premise rears its head. The best available option is NOT the one with the highest damage potential. It's the one with the best combination of damage potential x player efficiency.

I'm not making any such line in any sand. I'm simply stating reality. Refusal to accept reality would be an example of cultism btw.

I'm talking about HM/trifecta. Honestly, I'm just going to stop here as you have made multiple assumptions with no basis in reality.

and for the umpteenth time, the best possible option, with the easiest to achieve and best player efficiency, and, (while you say that combo won't be the highest dmg potential, IN THIS CASE it absolutely is the highest dmg in content), IS the same wildly overpowered one that EVERYONE plays and circumnavigates mechanics, dps checks, and survivability... holy crap.

you are making this exact line in the sand, you did it like each of your posts here... you keep coming back to "it's the players fault or the raid leads fault for making that the standard" and "why minmax past the necessary numbers for completion"

You are, and have repeatedly stated that minmaxing beyond the point you describe, (which I have to assume is simply completion and not something more) is cult-ish. I cannot fathom how you think that fits into the endgame community at all. Nobody runs a trifecta or score group and says "lets put some extra difficulties in our way, shall we?" No, because that would be insane.

You bring the heaviest hitter you can put together, or the strongest support that can provide the most boost to your group, not "whatever you want that floats around 120k".

It is such a weird stance to act like people who want to do the most dmg they can, be good at thier role, and play the combat oriented videogame that revolves around survival and doing dmg, should just play whatever, however. Talk about ignoring reality. It's a cult of mediocrity.

It's not up to me to tell you how to pursue your game time. I would never do that. Please stop insinuating that I should let go and play the way you do. I don't want that. I want to push numbers and do mechs, and I want it to be in a group that isn't a clone farm, not because they are slaves to a Meta, but because that meta delivers way too hard to be ignored and the next options are pale shadows.

Blackyack

Artem_gig wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Artem_gig wrote: »

[snip] The only ones to blame are those who don't see anything but the meta and force others to use it, but I'll tell you a secret: TESO isn't about the meta. It's about the uniqueness of characters. And the more opportunities there are for diversity, the more likely it is that you'll find the most effective one. Are the developers to blame? No, because balance is impossible. [snip] The division into classes didn't allow you to be who you wanted to be. When will you understand what this game is about, stop aiming for the meta! Play for fun and collect what you want to be.

[edited to remove quote]

"In end-game content, when a player needs to get a reasonable amount of power out of their character" You don't need that! Stop! The game doesn't need 180k damage. It doesn't even need 100. But for some reason, you think you have to have the highest stats. If the game had a skill that put you in a clown costume, but in return, you would deal 999999999 damage, you clowns would use that skill. And they blamed ZOS for it. Because you don't like wearing a clown costume. So don't use the skill. You don't need that much damage. Play the skills you like, make an interesting character, not the most effective one. Multiclassing allows you to create anyone you want, so why are you complaining about losing your identity when you don't allow yourself to have it? They gave you the opportunity to expand your options instead of just one class, but you're complaining that there's only one class in the game. But no, it's you who is being led by numbers. Play for fun, not for numbers.

this is the fundamental disconnect right here, and frankly why mid-game is so frustrating about this conversation -you are telling someone that their reasons for playing the game are not valid. you are calling competative players clowns for using skills that are in the game. YES, WE BLAME ZOS FOR IT. we are competetive players. I play BECAUSE i like being a good DD, and very occasionally a pink ranked great DD, if only for a week or 2. If it's in the game, it's on the table. That's how endgamers play. It's not "for some reason" that I think I need the "highest stats" its because I WANT TO PLAY LIKE THAT. I want the game to be hard, I want to min max, I want to clear trifectas in short amounts of time. So do lots of people. The amount of dps testing I do in my gorgeously decorated home to find the combinations that do what I want them to do would appall you, and you'd probably find it boring. But not me! that's what I like about the game, the statistical interaction, the application of knowledge and technique, keeping high uptimes in the face of adds and aoe...thats my jam. and I don't want that taken away, which is exactly what's happening.

So please, please, stop it, it's selfish and rude, and frankly myopic. I don't critique your builds, because you didn't ask me to. I don't *** on you for playing the game you want, stop telling other people the way they play is bad. It's so so shortsighted. The more endgamers leave the more this game will fall into disrepair.

The less talent, the larger the voices that want more access to content they couldn't get at regularly, the more skilled players will leave, until Microsoft stops finding this game worth messing with and reallocates half the team so now all you'll get is half baked rehashed old content....oh wait...

ZhuJiuyin

This is also the problem ESO faces right now: some people—let's call them "toxic casual players"—consistently believe DPS isn't important and are hostile to those who pursue it.
But it's these top 1% of players who usually provide the meta, write tutorials, and guide new players.
They are the reason for the game's longevity, and it's because of their efforts that new players can grow more efficiently.
Imagine what would happen to the game without these high-level players? Want to complete the trial? Sorry, there's no relevant guide, or qualified tank/DPS/healer. Want to play PVP? Sorry, PVP is also dead because everyone is a low-level player, so the only factor that determines the outcome is the number of people. When the players who wrote the tutorial disappear, the rest can only continue to stumble and grope in the dark until another batch of high-level players emerge, but by then, the game is usually dead.

Want a fun build? That's fine, but Dungeons/Trials are group-based, and you have to consider the cost of your teammates' time. When a team only has to face 12 Xoryn's Chain Lightnings instead of 16, any responsible leader and competent teammates will choose the former over the latter.

Besides, no one objects to fun builds; after all, fun is the whole point of playing games, isn't it?

But what's not fun? A monotonous build lacking in variety. If I could, I'd also like my HM team to have a Frost Mage, a Black Mage, an Archer, and even a Zookeeper, but poor balancing prevents that because the DPS of these themed builds is so different from the Beam build. And that's undoubtedly ZOS's fault.

What is a truly fun build?
1. Sufficient variety.
2. Ability to clear the game's most challenging levels with average DPS (currently, at least 120-130k, with cleave accounting for 70% of total damage).
3. Ability to not drag down teammates or provide sufficient buffs to the team.

Only when all three of these criteria are met can a build be considered interesting. No one wants to be shooting peas at monsters while their teammates are nuking them. And no team wants a player who can only shoot peas. When you choose to play DPS in a group, it's your responsibility to achieve decent (not necessarily the highest) DPS. However, some toxic casual players seem content with just shooting peas and loudly oppose those who do their duty.

Artem_gig

Blackyack wrote: »

Artem_gig wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Artem_gig wrote: »

[snip] The only ones to blame are those who don't see anything but the meta and force others to use it, but I'll tell you a secret: TESO isn't about the meta. It's about the uniqueness of characters. And the more opportunities there are for diversity, the more likely it is that you'll find the most effective one. Are the developers to blame? No, because balance is impossible. [snip] The division into classes didn't allow you to be who you wanted to be. When will you understand what this game is about, stop aiming for the meta! Play for fun and collect what you want to be.

[edited to remove quote]

"In end-game content, when a player needs to get a reasonable amount of power out of their character" You don't need that! Stop! The game doesn't need 180k damage. It doesn't even need 100. But for some reason, you think you have to have the highest stats. If the game had a skill that put you in a clown costume, but in return, you would deal 999999999 damage, you clowns would use that skill. And they blamed ZOS for it. Because you don't like wearing a clown costume. So don't use the skill. You don't need that much damage. Play the skills you like, make an interesting character, not the most effective one. Multiclassing allows you to create anyone you want, so why are you complaining about losing your identity when you don't allow yourself to have it? They gave you the opportunity to expand your options instead of just one class, but you're complaining that there's only one class in the game. But no, it's you who is being led by numbers. Play for fun, not for numbers.

this is the fundamental disconnect right here, and frankly why mid-game is so frustrating about this conversation -you are telling someone that their reasons for playing the game are not valid. you are calling competative players clowns for using skills that are in the game. YES, WE BLAME ZOS FOR IT. we are competetive players. I play BECAUSE i like being a good DD, and very occasionally a pink ranked great DD, if only for a week or 2. If it's in the game, it's on the table. That's how endgamers play. It's not "for some reason" that I think I need the "highest stats" its because I WANT TO PLAY LIKE THAT. I want the game to be hard, I want to min max, I want to clear trifectas in short amounts of time. So do lots of people. The amount of dps testing I do in my gorgeously decorated home to find the combinations that do what I want them to do would appall you, and you'd probably find it boring. But not me! that's what I like about the game, the statistical interaction, the application of knowledge and technique, keeping high uptimes in the face of adds and aoe...thats my jam. and I don't want that taken away, which is exactly what's happening.

So please, please, stop it, it's selfish and rude, and frankly myopic. I don't critique your builds, because you didn't ask me to. I don't *** on you for playing the game you want, stop telling other people the way they play is bad. It's so so shortsighted. The more endgamers leave the more this game will fall into disrepair.

The less talent, the larger the voices that want more access to content they couldn't get at regularly, the more skilled players will leave, until Microsoft stops finding this game worth messing with and reallocates half the team so now all you'll get is half baked rehashed old content....oh wait...

Then just don't contradict yourself and choose what you like better - playing with a meta or playing with an effective (Even if it is not the most ) but unique build. That's it.

Artem_gig

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

This is also the problem ESO faces right now: some people—let's call them "toxic casual players"—consistently believe DPS isn't important and are hostile to those who pursue it.
But it's these top 1% of players who usually provide the meta, write tutorials, and guide new players.
They are the reason for the game's longevity, and it's because of their efforts that new players can grow more efficiently.
Imagine what would happen to the game without these high-level players? Want to complete the trial? Sorry, there's no relevant guide, or qualified tank/DPS/healer. Want to play PVP? Sorry, PVP is also dead because everyone is a low-level player, so the only factor that determines the outcome is the number of people. When the players who wrote the tutorial disappear, the rest can only continue to stumble and grope in the dark until another batch of high-level players emerge, but by then, the game is usually dead.

Want a fun build? That's fine, but Dungeons/Trials are group-based, and you have to consider the cost of your teammates' time. When a team only has to face 12 Xoryn's Chain Lightnings instead of 16, any responsible leader and competent teammates will choose the former over the latter.

Besides, no one objects to fun builds; after all, fun is the whole point of playing games, isn't it?

But what's not fun? A monotonous build lacking in variety. If I could, I'd also like my HM team to have a Frost Mage, a Black Mage, an Archer, and even a Zookeeper, but poor balancing prevents that because the DPS of these themed builds is so different from the Beam build. And that's undoubtedly ZOS's fault.

What is a truly fun build?
1. Sufficient variety.
2. Ability to clear the game's most challenging levels with average DPS (currently, at least 120-130k, with cleave accounting for 70% of total damage).
3. Ability to not drag down teammates or provide sufficient buffs to the team.

Only when all three of these criteria are met can a build be considered interesting. No one wants to be shooting peas at monsters while their teammates are nuking them. And no team wants a player who can only shoot peas. When you choose to play DPS in a group, it's your responsibility to achieve decent (not necessarily the highest) DPS. However, some toxic casual players seem content with just shooting peas and loudly oppose those who do their duty.

"Toxic casual players" are just a result of being forced to play through builds they don't like. And "casual" isn't the right word. A casual player is someone who doesn't want to put in the effort and wants everything done for them. But players who don't want to play through the meta - not casuals. They just want to play more creatively. A casual player is someone who plays DS based on guides (which, sorry, is just lame). Using the most effective build that you've seen on the internet. In the DS community, such players are treated with disdain. In Teso, the situation is completely opposite. Why is a person who plays endgame using guides and builds from the internet not considered a casual player, but a person who tries to learn everything on their own through their unique playing style (which includes the build) is considered a casual player?

fizzybeef

Major_Mangle wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The fact is adding caps to damage would fix the balance issues but people for some reason think that is bad even though it would solve this very issue which is even worse.

Tell why would caps be worse than the balancing issue that is Subclassing? cap DPS per second at 100,000, problem solved, ESO would never have balancing problems ever again.

So essentially the "Vengeance treatment" for PvE where you remove or severely limit any kind of skill progression and merging the ceiling and the floor? Big no to that chief

I would love if pve gets vengeance, so these who praised vengeance in pvp for acessability and were for punishing everyone who works for their pvp sucess, can taste their own medicine.

The game is getting to easy anyway, see oakensoul and overland difficulty

PapaTankers

Artem_gig wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

This is also the problem ESO faces right now: some people—let's call them "toxic casual players"—consistently believe DPS isn't important and are hostile to those who pursue it.
But it's these top 1% of players who usually provide the meta, write tutorials, and guide new players.
They are the reason for the game's longevity, and it's because of their efforts that new players can grow more efficiently.
Imagine what would happen to the game without these high-level players? Want to complete the trial? Sorry, there's no relevant guide, or qualified tank/DPS/healer. Want to play PVP? Sorry, PVP is also dead because everyone is a low-level player, so the only factor that determines the outcome is the number of people. When the players who wrote the tutorial disappear, the rest can only continue to stumble and grope in the dark until another batch of high-level players emerge, but by then, the game is usually dead.

Want a fun build? That's fine, but Dungeons/Trials are group-based, and you have to consider the cost of your teammates' time. When a team only has to face 12 Xoryn's Chain Lightnings instead of 16, any responsible leader and competent teammates will choose the former over the latter.

Besides, no one objects to fun builds; after all, fun is the whole point of playing games, isn't it?

But what's not fun? A monotonous build lacking in variety. If I could, I'd also like my HM team to have a Frost Mage, a Black Mage, an Archer, and even a Zookeeper, but poor balancing prevents that because the DPS of these themed builds is so different from the Beam build. And that's undoubtedly ZOS's fault.

What is a truly fun build?
1. Sufficient variety.
2. Ability to clear the game's most challenging levels with average DPS (currently, at least 120-130k, with cleave accounting for 70% of total damage).
3. Ability to not drag down teammates or provide sufficient buffs to the team.

Only when all three of these criteria are met can a build be considered interesting. No one wants to be shooting peas at monsters while their teammates are nuking them. And no team wants a player who can only shoot peas. When you choose to play DPS in a group, it's your responsibility to achieve decent (not necessarily the highest) DPS. However, some toxic casual players seem content with just shooting peas and loudly oppose those who do their duty.

"Toxic casual players" are just a result of being forced to play through builds they don't like. And "casual" isn't the right word. A casual player is someone who doesn't want to put in the effort and wants everything done for them. But players who don't want to play through the meta - not casuals. They just want to play more creatively. A casual player is someone who plays DS based on guides (which, sorry, is just lame). Using the most effective build that you've seen on the internet. In the DS community, such players are treated with disdain. In Teso, the situation is completely opposite. Why is a person who plays endgame using guides and builds from the internet not considered a casual player, but a person who tries to learn everything on their own through their unique playing style (which includes the build) is considered a casual player?

Because these so called creative players have made me fall asleep while tanking half the pugs.

I dont think anyone here is telling anyone to play the meta per se. Its more about bringing other options closer to meta so one could still be somewhat creative on top end. If the groups arent scorepushing then noone would bat an eye for 5-10k difference.

Last'One

fizzybeef wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The fact is adding caps to damage would fix the balance issues but people for some reason think that is bad even though it would solve this very issue which is even worse.

Tell why would caps be worse than the balancing issue that is Subclassing? cap DPS per second at 100,000, problem solved, ESO would never have balancing problems ever again.

So essentially the "Vengeance treatment" for PvE where you remove or severely limit any kind of skill progression and merging the ceiling and the floor? Big no to that chief

I would love if pve gets vengeance, so these who praised vengeance in pvp for acessability and were for punishing everyone who works for their pvp sucess, can taste their own medicine.

The game is getting to easy anyway, see oakensoul and overland difficulty

I admit I might be wrong about what I’m about to say, but I think "Vengeance" was something related to PvP? Maybe I’m confusing it with some kind of PvP event. I don’t do PvP at all in this game, because this isn’t PVP.
But anyway, if you mean you’d "love for PvE to get vengeance," then honestly, I’m pretty sure ESO wouldn’t last one year if ZOS ever added PvP to PvE zones. They’d be better off shutting the servers down at that point.

edit:
If this Vengeance thing has nothing to do with PvP, then what is it? Anyway, I think we’re going off-topic.

tomofhyrule

Artem_gig wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

This is also the problem ESO faces right now: some people—let's call them "toxic casual players"—consistently believe DPS isn't important and are hostile to those who pursue it.
But it's these top 1% of players who usually provide the meta, write tutorials, and guide new players.
They are the reason for the game's longevity, and it's because of their efforts that new players can grow more efficiently.
Imagine what would happen to the game without these high-level players? Want to complete the trial? Sorry, there's no relevant guide, or qualified tank/DPS/healer. Want to play PVP? Sorry, PVP is also dead because everyone is a low-level player, so the only factor that determines the outcome is the number of people. When the players who wrote the tutorial disappear, the rest can only continue to stumble and grope in the dark until another batch of high-level players emerge, but by then, the game is usually dead.

Want a fun build? That's fine, but Dungeons/Trials are group-based, and you have to consider the cost of your teammates' time. When a team only has to face 12 Xoryn's Chain Lightnings instead of 16, any responsible leader and competent teammates will choose the former over the latter.

Besides, no one objects to fun builds; after all, fun is the whole point of playing games, isn't it?

But what's not fun? A monotonous build lacking in variety. If I could, I'd also like my HM team to have a Frost Mage, a Black Mage, an Archer, and even a Zookeeper, but poor balancing prevents that because the DPS of these themed builds is so different from the Beam build. And that's undoubtedly ZOS's fault.

What is a truly fun build?
1. Sufficient variety.
2. Ability to clear the game's most challenging levels with average DPS (currently, at least 120-130k, with cleave accounting for 70% of total damage).
3. Ability to not drag down teammates or provide sufficient buffs to the team.

Only when all three of these criteria are met can a build be considered interesting. No one wants to be shooting peas at monsters while their teammates are nuking them. And no team wants a player who can only shoot peas. When you choose to play DPS in a group, it's your responsibility to achieve decent (not necessarily the highest) DPS. However, some toxic casual players seem content with just shooting peas and loudly oppose those who do their duty.

"Toxic casual players" are just a result of being forced to play through builds they don't like. And "casual" isn't the right word. A casual player is someone who doesn't want to put in the effort and wants everything done for them. But players who don't want to play through the meta - not casuals. They just want to play more creatively. A casual player is someone who plays DS based on guides (which, sorry, is just lame). Using the most effective build that you've seen on the internet. In the DS community, such players are treated with disdain. In Teso, the situation is completely opposite. Why is a person who plays endgame using guides and builds from the internet not considered a casual player, but a person who tries to learn everything on their own through their unique playing style (which includes the build) is considered a casual player?

Look, you're doing a lot of arguing that all builds can do all content, and you say that you do HMs past RG with all builds as well.

It would put a lot of us at ease if you show us that it's the case. Can you link to a video/log of your Ansuul HM run where several people in group, including at least two of the supports, are not using the meta setup?

If we could show our raid leads that it was possible, then maybe there would be less pressure to only bring a certain setup.

BXR_Lonestar

tomofhyrule wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Honestly, this was quite predictable. We all knew that subclassing was going to wreck any semblance of balance when they released it because its power creep on steroids. And as fun as it is to play a game that is broken from a balance perspective, it is also not good for the long-term health of the game. This is why I wish they had taken a more thoughtful approach to subclassing or just not done it at all instead of just pushing something out that is half-baked to try to make a quick buck. My hope is that there will be some balancing changes coming, which may or may not help, depending on what they do, but it begs me to question why you would release something knowing it is broken in the first place.

My big fear is just… where do you go from here?

The power creep added from Subclassing was obscene, but it’s here now. If ZOS tries to nerf anything, we’ll have another U35-esque exodus. If they buff PvE enemies, we’ll get people complaining about damage sponges (we already have bosses in the 170m+ range). If they buff pureclasses, then people who use a for-fun Subclassed build will be left behind.

There’s no winning here. Whichever way they choose will lead to more discontent and another exodus.

And more importantly, 2025 added no new content, for Subclassing was just putting everything we already had into a blender. And there are already people leaving because nothing new came in. Do they spend another year of nothing to try to fix what they have, which may get some of the players who left because of balance to return but also drives off people who are already bored, or do they squeeze in something new to try to get those people back, which would essentially be adding gasoline to a wildfire of balance?

I don’t envy the combat team right now. I can see why they’re just going all-in on Vengeance since the rest of the game is a mess. But the longer they ignore the problem, the more people who are going to leave.

Please ZOS: how many players - content creators, PTS testers, real people - warned about this happening and you did it anyway? Maybe try listening to the people who know the game and its community?

Honestly, its a little too late to start listening to people's warnings. They've painted themselves into a corner, and you're right - regardless of what they do now, they're going to upset someone. But they DO need to take measures to reign in the power creep and bring things closer to balance. Yes, there will always be a META, but the META shouldn't be so far above everything else (in both PVE and PVP) that to run anything else is akin to voluntarily playing handicapped. I think they're going to have to go back to the beginning and do a pure class rebalancing patch, with an eye for how those balancing changes will effect subclassing.

Some people will leave. But others will return. The bottom line is that they can't let let the power creep continue to grow exponentially or it is ultimately going to kill their golden goose.

Vaqual

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Artem_gig wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

This is also the problem ESO faces right now: some people—let's call them "toxic casual players"—consistently believe DPS isn't important and are hostile to those who pursue it.
But it's these top 1% of players who usually provide the meta, write tutorials, and guide new players.
They are the reason for the game's longevity, and it's because of their efforts that new players can grow more efficiently.
Imagine what would happen to the game without these high-level players? Want to complete the trial? Sorry, there's no relevant guide, or qualified tank/DPS/healer. Want to play PVP? Sorry, PVP is also dead because everyone is a low-level player, so the only factor that determines the outcome is the number of people. When the players who wrote the tutorial disappear, the rest can only continue to stumble and grope in the dark until another batch of high-level players emerge, but by then, the game is usually dead.

Want a fun build? That's fine, but Dungeons/Trials are group-based, and you have to consider the cost of your teammates' time. When a team only has to face 12 Xoryn's Chain Lightnings instead of 16, any responsible leader and competent teammates will choose the former over the latter.

Besides, no one objects to fun builds; after all, fun is the whole point of playing games, isn't it?

But what's not fun? A monotonous build lacking in variety. If I could, I'd also like my HM team to have a Frost Mage, a Black Mage, an Archer, and even a Zookeeper, but poor balancing prevents that because the DPS of these themed builds is so different from the Beam build. And that's undoubtedly ZOS's fault.

What is a truly fun build?
1. Sufficient variety.
2. Ability to clear the game's most challenging levels with average DPS (currently, at least 120-130k, with cleave accounting for 70% of total damage).
3. Ability to not drag down teammates or provide sufficient buffs to the team.

Only when all three of these criteria are met can a build be considered interesting. No one wants to be shooting peas at monsters while their teammates are nuking them. And no team wants a player who can only shoot peas. When you choose to play DPS in a group, it's your responsibility to achieve decent (not necessarily the highest) DPS. However, some toxic casual players seem content with just shooting peas and loudly oppose those who do their duty.

"Toxic casual players" are just a result of being forced to play through builds they don't like. And "casual" isn't the right word. A casual player is someone who doesn't want to put in the effort and wants everything done for them. But players who don't want to play through the meta - not casuals. They just want to play more creatively. A casual player is someone who plays DS based on guides (which, sorry, is just lame). Using the most effective build that you've seen on the internet. In the DS community, such players are treated with disdain. In Teso, the situation is completely opposite. Why is a person who plays endgame using guides and builds from the internet not considered a casual player, but a person who tries to learn everything on their own through their unique playing style (which includes the build) is considered a casual player?

Look, you're doing a lot of arguing that all builds can do all content, and you say that you do HMs past RG with all builds as well.

It would put a lot of us at ease if you show us that it's the case. Can you link to a video/log of your Ansuul HM run where several people in group, including at least two of the supports, are not using the meta setup?

If we could show our raid leads that it was possible, then maybe there would be less pressure to only bring a certain setup.

The average DPS requirements were less than 60% of todays top parsing specs just literally 2 patches ago - what proof do these people need?

tomofhyrule

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Honestly, this was quite predictable. We all knew that subclassing was going to wreck any semblance of balance when they released it because its power creep on steroids. And as fun as it is to play a game that is broken from a balance perspective, it is also not good for the long-term health of the game. This is why I wish they had taken a more thoughtful approach to subclassing or just not done it at all instead of just pushing something out that is half-baked to try to make a quick buck. My hope is that there will be some balancing changes coming, which may or may not help, depending on what they do, but it begs me to question why you would release something knowing it is broken in the first place.

My big fear is just… where do you go from here?

The power creep added from Subclassing was obscene, but it’s here now. If ZOS tries to nerf anything, we’ll have another U35-esque exodus. If they buff PvE enemies, we’ll get people complaining about damage sponges (we already have bosses in the 170m+ range). If they buff pureclasses, then people who use a for-fun Subclassed build will be left behind.

There’s no winning here. Whichever way they choose will lead to more discontent and another exodus.

And more importantly, 2025 added no new content, for Subclassing was just putting everything we already had into a blender. And there are already people leaving because nothing new came in. Do they spend another year of nothing to try to fix what they have, which may get some of the players who left because of balance to return but also drives off people who are already bored, or do they squeeze in something new to try to get those people back, which would essentially be adding gasoline to a wildfire of balance?

I don’t envy the combat team right now. I can see why they’re just going all-in on Vengeance since the rest of the game is a mess. But the longer they ignore the problem, the more people who are going to leave.

Please ZOS: how many players - content creators, PTS testers, real people - warned about this happening and you did it anyway? Maybe try listening to the people who know the game and its community?

Honestly, its a little too late to start listening to people's warnings. They've painted themselves into a corner, and you're right - regardless of what they do now, they're going to upset someone. But they DO need to take measures to reign in the power creep and bring things closer to balance. Yes, there will always be a META, but the META shouldn't be so far above everything else (in both PVE and PVP) that to run anything else is akin to voluntarily playing handicapped. I think they're going to have to go back to the beginning and do a pure class rebalancing patch, with an eye for how those balancing changes will effect subclassing.

Some people will leave. But others will return. The bottom line is that they can't let let the power creep continue to grow exponentially or it is ultimately going to kill their golden goose.

Absolutely.

They’re in a no-win situation right now, and I’m sure every path forward is going to cause people to leave (not to mention being a monumental task). And kicking the can down the road by hard-focusing Vengeance is not a good strategy.

It’s a really tough situation, and they need a really strong Combat team and lead to take them through this (which… yeah…). I feel bad for them… but only a little. These problems could mostly have been avoided had they listened to the players and testers before dropping this, but that’s all water under the bridge now. They can’t go back. It’s the classic “you made your bed, now lie in it” idea, but now someone needs to explain that to Microsoft and the shareholders - who I’m sure are not going to care about “but but but more freedom to play as you want!” if that meant fewer players interacting with the game.

My gut feeling is that the whole team (who we know favor ESO as a solo experience that you can share with friends if you want instead of an MMO that can be played solo at times) expected Subclassing to be this amazing thing - everyone would be so excited to swap on new things and would love it in every way. They absolutely expected that they would drop Subclassing and so many lapsed players would return and would love to play with new combos, and any balance questions would be minor and easily fixed because now anyone could take anything. They totally thought that mid-tier players would love to take Arc beam so they too could clear things they couldn’t before, but the experienced players would stick to their NBs or whatever they used.

The fact we’ve gotten a lot of surveys and “post your thoughts” things since then really tell me that the team was not expecting U46 to go this way. They were not expecting the balance to be that bad. They were not expecting any players to choose not to Subclass and prefer their pureclass builds. They were absolutely not expecting Subclassing to lead to an exodus. And then the first (only?) thing they did to try to balance it was kneecap ultigen passives, which they reverted before it got out of PTS. They’re paralyzed with indecision right now, and they realize that anything they do is going to make things worse before it gets better. And if they don’t also add new things like Grimoires or a new Class (aka 3 new skill lines) next year, people are not going to be happy with another zero-content year they have to pay $50 for. But then they are totally trying to balance and fix while actively adding something to break things and add more imbalance.

Honestly, I don’t even know how I would proceed if I were in that position, and we’re putting the entire future of the game in the hands of a Combat Lead who is… controversial to say the least. I’d probably make a PTS cycle specifically to play with balance (nothing else) as soon as U48’s is done, and I’d have a feedback thread for each Class… and I’d actually read and interact with the testers. That would at least mean most combat stuff could have some semblance of balance before the new stuff they’re throwing in in U49 could pop onto PTS in January, because I expect that the June U50 patch would need some new combat-related thing like a new Class to get people to buy the pass, and that means there has to be some amount of player-approved balance for the rest of the game by then.
Because if U50 doesn’t have something huge, people will leave. And if the ‘big feature’ is nothing but another free update - even if it’s a big thing like Overland difficulty (which needs to be more than just a “self-nerf slider”) or Crossplay (which needs to be implemented in such a way as to not force character name changes) or Permanent Vengeance (which is not a thing for PvPers as much as a thing for PvErs who don’t want to fight PvPers) - that may get some people to come back but won’t get them to spend actual money on the 2026 year Pass after being let down by 2025’s. And even then, those two things are extremely requested from a part of the playerbase, but are irrelevant to or outright undesirable for other parts, so the effect may be just like Subclassing - everyone thought it would be the biggest thing ever, and it ends up getting a lot less use than projected.

percept

Zos doesn't understand the concept of balance.

Everyone is beam and they don't lift a finger.

They simply do no care. They legit don't lol. They hate us and our opinions

Artem_gig

PapaTankers wrote: »

Because these so called creative players have made me fall asleep while tanking half the pugs.

I dont think anyone here is telling anyone to play the meta per se. Its more about bringing other options closer to meta so one could still be somewhat creative on top end. If the groups arent scorepushing then noone would bat an eye for 5-10k difference.

Well, I can already agree with you. I just don't agree with those who want to remove the multiclass as such.

Pops_ND_Irish

same o, same o
Can't dominate, whine about it. Bye bye
Game seems fine to me !

ADarklore

Well... I don't know about ESO numbers currently, but over on New World, their population has been steadily increasing.

Muizer

percept wrote: »

Zos doesn't understand the concept of balance.

Or multiclassing is their way of making the whole point moot: "Let's give everyone access to all skill lines so we can stop worrying about class balance". I agree though, if that's what they think 'balance' was about, they really don't understand it at all.

Anyway, what do I know. Outside of Vengeance I haven't actually played at all since this was introduced.

For a long time I had this attitude of "I'll keep playing, hopefully things will get better". Now it's "If things get better, I may start playing again".

PapaTankers

Pops_ND_Irish wrote: »

same o, same o
Can't dominate, whine about it. Bye bye
Game seems fine to me !

To summerize this thread for you since you obviously didnt bother.
It has nothing to do with lack of domination. Its about one skill in the game making everything else obsolote.

Could you entertain us by telling how much of your overall time is spent in endgame vet content?

Ishtarknows

PapaTankers wrote: »

Pops_ND_Irish wrote: »

same o, same o
Can't dominate, whine about it. Bye bye
Game seems fine to me !

To summerize this thread for you since you obviously didnt bother.
It has nothing to do with lack of domination. Its about one skill in the game making everything else obsolote.

Could you entertain us by telling how much of your overall time is spent in endgame vet content?

It's not just 1 skill though. Beam with no crux does a pitiful amount of damage. In order to get good damage you need to use 2 other skills, one of them twice before using beam.

PapaTankers

Ishtarknows wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

Pops_ND_Irish wrote: »

same o, same o
Can't dominate, whine about it. Bye bye
Game seems fine to me !

To summerize this thread for you since you obviously didnt bother.
It has nothing to do with lack of domination. Its about one skill in the game making everything else obsolote.

Could you entertain us by telling how much of your overall time is spent in endgame vet content?

It's not just 1 skill though. Beam with no crux does a pitiful amount of damage. In order to get good damage you need to use 2 other skills, one of them twice before using beam.

Flail in a vacuum is fine. If runeblades were arcas spammable instead of a beam which has had a faulty design from the get go then we would see way more diversity on high end.

Veinblood1965

Just wait a month, the beam will get "enhanced - nerfed". It always happens. Population is down on PS4 NA server it's really obvious. Each major change causes more longer term players to quit and not enough new players stay to make up the difference. Seriously if I finally decide to quit there isn't anything that would get me to come back, I wouldn't be like oh wow there is subclassing now I'm going to re-sub. Once a vet leaves they stay left.

tomofhyrule

PapaTankers wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

Pops_ND_Irish wrote: »

same o, same o
Can't dominate, whine about it. Bye bye
Game seems fine to me !

To summerize this thread for you since you obviously didnt bother.
It has nothing to do with lack of domination. Its about one skill in the game making everything else obsolote.

Could you entertain us by telling how much of your overall time is spent in endgame vet content?

It's not just 1 skill though. Beam with no crux does a pitiful amount of damage. In order to get good damage you need to use 2 other skills, one of them twice before using beam.

Flail in a vacuum is fine. If runeblades were arcas spammable instead of a beam which has had a faulty design from the get go then we would see way more diversity on high end.

Ehh… Flail in a vacuum is still really strong compared to other similar skills.

Flail: 2984 stam, 15m cone, does 1939 damage, immobilizes for 3s, heals for 1000 on hit, builds crux to power up later attacks, and applies a unique 5% damage taken from you debuff to enemies for 20s
Jabs: 2995 mag, 8m cone, does 919x3 (2757) damage, with a 40% snare, and heals you for 25% of damage done
Arctic Blast: 3780 mag, 6m radial, does 1799 damage with a 298 damage/2s dot for 18s (2682), and stuns after 3s. But the devs specifically called this skill out as overloaded and made the heal (2323) conditional on hitting no enemies

BXR_Lonestar

@tomofhyrule

My gut feeling is that the whole team (who we know favor ESO as a solo experience that you can share with friends if you want instead of an MMO that can be played solo at times) expected Subclassing to be this amazing thing - everyone would be so excited to swap on new things and would love it in every way. They absolutely expected that they would drop Subclassing and so many lapsed players would return and would love to play with new combos, and any balance questions would be minor and easily fixed because now anyone could take anything. They totally thought that mid-tier players would love to take Arc beam so they too could clear things they couldn’t before, but the experienced players would stick to their NBs or whatever they used.

This is precisely it. There were so many people who were excited about subclassing before it came out that kept arguing that all of the other Elder Scrolls games don't feature rigid classes, so why does THIS game have rigid classes? The answer to that is that this is NOT a single player game - its an MMO - and it needs to be treated as such. In single player games, balance doesn't matter at all because the only thing you are competing against is the AI opponents you face when you play PVE. You can be super OP and one-shot Legendary Dragons, and it doesn't matter because your power only effects your own experience.

But in an MMO, you're competing against other players, even in a PVE environment, where players are trying to get endgame achievements, loot, etc. In a PVP environment, you are literally competing against other players to win an engagement. Balance is GOING to matter. And having rigid classes is an easy way to make sure people DON'T line up the best damage skill lines/skills together on 1 character to make ridiculous amounts of damage.

Not to mention, subclassing is a complete 180 of where they were going IMMEDIATELY BEFORE subclassing. They gave us scribing and class-specific armor sets and class-based scribing abilities. These all suggest they were looking to lean more into the game's classes, not totally obliterate them. I thought they could go further by giving us a wider variety of class-specific armors, champion points, mythics, and do a class-rebalancing patch to really lean into and improve class identity, but instead, in one move, they totally obliterated any semblance of in-game class - and now we have all these awkward relics from balancing patches from the recent past. It makes no sense.

Overall, I think the people who are in charge of managing this game have no grand vision for the game. They're just throwing out ideas that they think might be popular to make a quick buck. And if they don't get someone in place who DOES have a grand vision for the game overall, then the game is truly going to be in a downward slide.

PapaTankers

tomofhyrule wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

Pops_ND_Irish wrote: »

same o, same o
Can't dominate, whine about it. Bye bye
Game seems fine to me !

To summerize this thread for you since you obviously didnt bother.
It has nothing to do with lack of domination. Its about one skill in the game making everything else obsolote.

Could you entertain us by telling how much of your overall time is spent in endgame vet content?

It's not just 1 skill though. Beam with no crux does a pitiful amount of damage. In order to get good damage you need to use 2 other skills, one of them twice before using beam.

Flail in a vacuum is fine. If runeblades were arcas spammable instead of a beam which has had a faulty design from the get go then we would see way more diversity on high end.

Ehh… Flail in a vacuum is still really strong compared to other similar skills.

Flail: 2984 stam, 15m cone, does 1939 damage, immobilizes for 3s, heals for 1000 on hit, builds crux to power up later attacks, and applies a unique 5% damage taken from you debuff to enemies for 20s
Jabs: 2995 mag, 8m cone, does 919x3 (2757) damage, with a 40% snare, and heals you for 25% of damage done
Arctic Blast: 3780 mag, 6m radial, does 1799 damage with a 298 damage/2s dot for 18s (2682), and stuns after 3s. But the devs specifically called this skill out as overloaded and made the heal (2323) conditional on hitting no enemies

Yeah, fair enough.