PTS Update 48 - Feedback Thread for New Item Sets

ZOS_Kevin · September 15

This is the official feedback thread for the new item sets. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

Were there any sets you felt were over or under powered compared to current offerings in the live game?
Do you have any other general feedback?

Mattymoo92 · September 16

The new mythic set is extremely underpowered compared to other ones, the 8% buff it’s terrible and very weak, would need to be 20%+ to match other mythics, please buff

IncultaWolf · September 16

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

The new mythic set is extremely underpowered compared to other ones, the 8% buff it’s terrible and very weak, would need to be 20%+ to match other mythics, please buff

Came here to say this, it feels very weak right now. Gave my feedback in this thread

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/683195/feedback-on-huntsmans-warmask-mythic

Major_Mangle · September 16

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

The new mythic set is extremely underpowered compared to other ones, the 8% buff it’s terrible and very weak, would need to be 20%+ to match other mythics, please buff

Came here to say this, it feels very weak right now. Gave my feedback in this thread

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/683195/feedback-on-huntsmans-warmask-mythic

Gonna agree with this as well, 8% is a laughable amount of damage increase. Needs to be in the 15-20% range to even be considered if you ask me.

Like the idea to have it somewhat stronger while transformed as a werewolf, should for sure add that to the mythic

tomofhyrule · September 16

I definitely do want to play around with the new mythic on my werebearwolf character. But I’ll agree that an extra 8% damage is pitiful, especially when combined with a damage debuff to other things. It really needs a lot higher of a damage buff to make it worthwhile, because it does look really really cool.

Praise Hircine! And please give our beasts more love, especially in the Grimoire department in the future!
(And my boy will love you forever if you actually let him be the bear he’s supposed to be with a skill style 😘🐻)

propertyOfUndefined · September 16

8%?! Nope!

If I need to land a full heavy attack on a target and then ignore everything else and stick to it like glue, it needs to be in the range of 15-20. I can get major vulnerability (10%) from just taunting.

YandereGirlfriend · September 16

I can't imagine looking at Velothi at +15% to EVERY TARGET, plus Minor Force, plus Penetration and concluding that they are remotely close to equivalent in power.

Like others have said, the current tuning needs to be doubled before we can talk about this Mythic being viable.

Avran_Sylt · September 16

Shared Burden and Xanmeer Genesis, I don't know if those increased stats are a sign of changes to come for all sets in the future, but could be a main-stat increase for stamina users with the Ring of Markyn Majesty.

But maybe have one with Magicka as the 2-piece?

Huntsmans warmask:

How much damage is lost from Ur Velothi's LA/HA attack reduction in average parses?
How much damage is lost performing a HA against a chaff enemy while fighting a boss?
How much damage is lost performing a HA to apply the debuff onto the boss?
How much time does it take to place the mark back onto the boss after tagging chaff?
How much time does it take to tag chaff after tagging the boss?

I'd say the increase in damage should be about 15% minus that percentage loss from Ur's LA/HA reduction.

Then, since Ur Mage already has Minor Force, meaning you'll now need to source it yourself, I'd add Major Berserk on Kill as well, which limits the trigger in PvP, and provides a higher uptime of Major Berserk in PvE. I'd want to say for 20s as well.

I'd honestly just let this apply on every Heavy Attack, the former immediately falling off if applied to another target.

For PvE DPS in Trials/dungeons it becomes a game of tagging chaff and killing them immediately/with AoE and then tagging the boss with newfound Major Berserk, but only if the boss has chaff to target reliably, whereas otherwise Ur might be the better mythic.

For Overland it's a bit clunky as needing to Heavy Attack into each new enemy that dies in a few hits (I'm interested in how the overland difficulty update rolls out), may be a bit of tedium, so I'd like to suggest granting your next Heavy attack increased Attack speed once your mark dies, but I realize that might be problematic with WW's existing HA speed buff for Ferocious Roar.

ESO_Nightingale · September 16

Is there a reason why we need a new heavy attack set every patch?

T3vvy · September 16

May i ask why Xanmeer Genesis and Shared Burden seem to have higher values for their 2-4 piece bonuses compared to other sets? is this a patch note error, or is it also reflected ingame?

Tannus15 · September 17

T3vvy wrote: »

May i ask why Xanmeer Genesis and Shared Burden seem to have higher values for their 2-4 piece bonuses compared to other sets? is this a patch note error, or is it also reflected ingame?

I came here to ask the same thing. Why are these 2 sets getting higher than usual max resource stats?

Freelancer_ESO · September 17

Tannus15 wrote: »

T3vvy wrote: »

May i ask why Xanmeer Genesis and Shared Burden seem to have higher values for their 2-4 piece bonuses compared to other sets? is this a patch note error, or is it also reflected ingame?

I came here to ask the same thing. Why are these 2 sets getting higher than usual max resource stats?

They aren't getting more stats in game.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the new item sets. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:
Were there any sets you felt were over or under powered compared to current offerings in the live game?

Do you have any other general feedback?

I feel like the Huntsman's Warmask hits the point where it's technically balanced but, functionally it seemed questionable at least in PvE.

In theory, it's like Essence Thief where you get a both a boost to damage and recovery.

In practice, it didn't really seem to work that great for me using it since the PTS came up for questing/public dungeon.

If I'm fighting against a tough mob it can take quite a while for it to die which will mean that the recovery I get from using the Mythic isn't going to be that high.

If I'm fighting against an easy mob the extra damage from the set isn't going to matter because by the time I actually get the buff applied the npc is already significantly wounded enough that the 8% damage on the remaining hp isn't generally going to do much.

As the Mythic is in the head slot, I miss out on being able to use a Monster set if I use it.

The heavy attack requirement bumps into the issue that on a non-heavy attack build you may be taking a damage hit to get the damage buff and on a heavy attack build you likely don't need the resource recovery of the set.

Honestly, I was kind of curious if on my heavy attack build I was losing more damage from using it than I was gaining due to the loss of cleave damage.

My PvP knowledge/ability to test PvP on the PTS is rather limited so I can't say it's not going to work in that area but, I think the fact it's a head piece might limit it's popularity a bit as it would be in competition with Anthelmir's Construct and Balorgh at a minimum.

Tannus15 · September 18

What is this set for?

I mean, ignoring the incorrect tooltip, it's 8 meters, not 0 meters. it's also normal stats, not the over inflated stats in the PTS patch notes.

This gives regen when something dies to people near the dead thing. I don't know how many people, let's assume 6.

So this is a set for group play to help with clearing trash via sustain.
Who is asking for a set to do this?
Who looks at the sets run by groups currently and thinks "yes, they are going to swap one of those sets for this one"

You have to run it on a healer support, because it's got garbage stats. max stam, max mag, max health. so most of those stats are useless.

This set has no reason to exist, is has no situation where anyone should run it. Luckily we won't have to collect or decon it since it's a crafted set and no one will ever make it outside of a meme or just not understanding how to press X for synergies.

Beyond pointless

I mean, it's one thing for Brian Wheeler to tell us that old item sets don't need buffing because apparantly they are fine, even though we all know they are not, but now we have yet another set which is completely, and utterly, useless.

YandereGirlfriend · September 18

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Is there a reason why we need a new heavy attack set every patch?

THIS.

Super unclear why this has become a permanent thing.

At the very least they could throw everyone else a small bone by dropping the "Fully Charged" stipulation so that they can be used with a Medium Attack.

MincMincMinc · September 18

I still just want to know how we have half the combat team working on vengeance simplifications and reduced bloat...........Then at the same time we have the rest of the team putting out complicated bloated exceedingly calculation dense sets like the above Xanmeer Genesis.

The set promotes the use of AoE spam to get ticks on every enemy to stay on kill feeds.
The set promotes the use of Dots to get ticks on every enemy
The set then interacts with your "allies" not just group members in an aoe
The set then interacts with 3 stats
The set then has a cooldown.........which is not clarified whether the cooldown is on the wearer or on your allies.

all I see is Lag x Lag x Lag x Lag x Lag

Yet we still have players and devs wondering what the issue with the current design of the game is.

Lykeion · September 18

Stats of the new mythic are definitely below the standard level. As a damage-focused mythic, the 8% damage increase (with the 4% damage reduction against non-targets) feels far too conservative—well below Veloth’s performance in PvE, and PvP players likely won’t ever pick it over Monomyth. And this isn’t just a numbers issue—its trigger condition (full heavy attack) is much more cumbersome compared to other mythics, which only makes its drawbacks stand out even more. This mythic either needs a redesign or a bold buff to its numbers.

BasP · September 20

I realize this isn't likely to happen, but could Huntsman's Warmask please proc off Light Attacks as well? I tried a couple of parses with the Mythic and I'm personally just not fond of having to incorporate Heavy Attacks into the rotation. Aside from that, I think its numbers could be buffed a bit as well.

For what it's worth, with decent uptime on the Mythic (88%) I did 147K DPS and with Selene I did 155K DPS. I have to admit that's in part due to me just parsing worse with the Mythic because I had to pay attention to the timer and I'm not used to incorporating Heavy Attacks into a rotation. Still, I can't see myself ever using this Mythic in its current state.

Tannus15 · September 21

@BasP thats because the mythic is bad and shouldn’t be used.

Whoever is doing item sets these days either has no idea what they are doing or just don’t want people to use the new sets.
Honestly I’m done being polite about sets.
What are you doing ZoS? We could see at a glance this wasn’t going to be worth using.

BasP · September 21

Tannus15 wrote: »

@BasP thats because the mythic is bad and shouldn’t be used.

Whoever is doing item sets these days either has no idea what they are doing or just don’t want people to use the new sets.
Honestly I’m done being polite about sets.
What are you doing ZoS? We could see at a glance this wasn’t going to be worth using.

Yeah, I didn't expect it to be any good either before I tried it. I was mostly interested in seeing how bad it actually was.

propertyOfUndefined · September 29

Huntsman's Warmask: Increased the duration of the mark from this set to 60 seconds, up from 20. Increased the damage done to marked target to 20%, up from 8%, while increasing the penalty to damage done to unmarked targets to 50%, up from 4%. This set now also triggers off dealing damage with a Bash, in addition to fully-charged Heavy Attacks.

--

Bravo!

Firey_Hellhound · September 29

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

Huntsman's Warmask: Increased the duration of the mark from this set to 60 seconds, up from 20. Increased the damage done to marked target to 20%, up from 8%, while increasing the penalty to damage done to unmarked targets to 50%, up from 4%. This set now also triggers off dealing damage with a Bash, in addition to fully-charged Heavy Attacks.

--

Bravo!

Also wanted to say thank you for listening to the feedback and reacting accordingly. This puts it in a decent place to be used in a good number of places in game. Also the bash trigger is a really useful addition. I will actually look forwards to grabbing the leads for this ASAP.

As it is Hircine related, a slight benefit to wearwolf form could also be considered too pehaps to round it out?

Ratzkifal · September 29

Huntsman's Warmask - good change, but 20% is a bit too much. Compare that to Malacath's 16%, which comes with a major downside reducing its damage output. Warmask's downside is very minor by comparison. Looking at PvP, as it stands, this mythic is now more powerful than Monomyth (+20% damage > +20% crit damage). It's very easy to apply, has a short cooldown and a long duration with the only downside being that it can be cleansed (which is only relevant against builds that have a cleanse in the first place).

As it stands I think Malacath could probably use a buff up to 20% (the reason Malacath was nerfed down to 16% was because proc sets had high damage and couldn't crit anyway. Now many of them deal lower damage but can crit, which made Malacath weaker, so there is room to buff it).
For Warmask, either increase the cooldown or lower the bonus to 15%, which would bring it more in line with Velothi in PvE too.

YandereGirlfriend · September 29

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Huntsman's Warmask - good change, but 20% is a bit too much. Compare that to Malacath's 16%, which comes with a major downside reducing its damage output. Warmask's downside is very minor by comparison. Looking at PvP, as it stands, this mythic is now more powerful than Monomyth (+20% damage > +20% crit damage). It's very easy to apply, has a short cooldown and a long duration with the only downside being that it can be cleansed (which is only relevant against builds that have a cleanse in the first place).

As it stands I think Malacath could probably use a buff up to 20% (the reason Malacath was nerfed down to 16% was because proc sets had high damage and couldn't crit anyway. Now many of them deal lower damage but can crit, which made Malacath weaker, so there is room to buff it).
For Warmask, either increase the cooldown or lower the bonus to 15%, which would bring it more in line with Velothi in PvE too.

The comparison should be to Velothi not Malacath. And Velothi will remain the best in most common fight scenarios.

Malacath is... just a bad Mythic. We don't need things nerfed down to its abysmal level but rather it needs a buff to bring it back up to viability.

We don't want any more decon-fodder slop. We want a situation where sets are legitimately so good that we have to agonize over which is the best in which specific situations.

MashmalloMan · September 29

I want to thank ZOS for trying something riskier with the new mythic, like you said, 8%/-4% was too safe, not rewarding or compelling enough to engage with. The new 20%/-50% split is a real risk/reward, and the 60s duration and bash application means it's easy to apply to high priority targets. Having control over your mythic is a really novel idea in the 500+ sets that either have too hard/punishing of an application type or apply randomly.

ZOS seemed to lose sight of what makes MMO's tick in their vision to make everything viable by making all 1v1 trial dummy dps relatively the same. This is a mistake, and the playerbase is partially to blame for requesting buffs to single target without considering cleave, support, ease of access, burst vs build up, etc. The game has negligble differences between classes for these given fields, so the meta naturally shifted towards what class can put out easy, decently high 1v1 DPS, while providing insane cleave... AKA Arcanist.

This idea for the mythic is exactly how I wanted NB to be designed for years, a high priority target 1v1 nuker. Give them +20% damage to monsters on Mark Target to compensate for their low cleave DPS. This would better lean into their low build up, high burst, 1v1 playstyle. In essence, the NB class IS this mythic with +20% single target, but -50% cleave.

Before subclassing, these should of been the general roles for DPS:

Nightblade = Insane 1v1, low cleave, low support, high burst.
Sorcerer = High 1v1, decent cleave, mid support, mid burst/build up.
DK/Necro = High 1v1, high cleave, low support, high build up.
Templar/Warden = Mid 1v1, high cleave, high support, high burst, mobile, survivable.
Arcanist = Low 1v1, insane cleave, low support, mid burst/build up.

Nowadays, it's more complex with subclassing, but I think you can still get there by adding condition requirements that introduce comboing pure class skill lines. With the above Mark Target example, simply add "damage done with Nightblade abilities" and a pure classer is rewarded for taking more than 1 line, without outright punishing a subclasser for only taking Assassination where plenty of abilities can take advantage of that effect.

This idea actually already kinda exists for Necro's Grave Lord Sacrifice, but the ability is bad, it trades for Blighted Blastbones, and there isn't really any other Necro non Grave Lord damage skills a pure classer would even consider. Ghostly Embrace? Yeah right..

You do 3 simple things by adding combo effects, small damage buffs to support lines, and lean into specific DPS playstyles, and you can really make pure classing vs sub classing an interesting dynamic. Pure classes are just 3 specific skill choices from ZOS as if sub classing was there the whole time. If taking Daedric Summoning, Animal Companions, and Grave Lord is a "Pet Summoner", what would it be to take Daedric Summoning, Storm Calling, and Dark Magic? Since ZOS knows what lines are being picked for a "Sorcerer" they can better specify the skill and passive interactions vs a subclassing approach that has more open ended effects that combo easier, but less proficiently.

YandereGirlfriend · September 29

However, this set would likely benefit from the "Damage Done To Monsters" proviso to just side-step PvP entirely.

It would also be a modest buff for PvE and help it to compete with Velothi.

MashmalloMan · September 29

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Huntsman's Warmask - good change, but 20% is a bit too much. Compare that to Malacath's 16%, which comes with a major downside reducing its damage output. Warmask's downside is very minor by comparison. Looking at PvP, as it stands, this mythic is now more powerful than Monomyth (+20% damage > +20% crit damage). It's very easy to apply, has a short cooldown and a long duration with the only downside being that it can be cleansed (which is only relevant against builds that have a cleanse in the first place).

As it stands I think Malacath could probably use a buff up to 20% (the reason Malacath was nerfed down to 16% was because proc sets had high damage and couldn't crit anyway. Now many of them deal lower damage but can crit, which made Malacath weaker, so there is room to buff it).
For Warmask, either increase the cooldown or lower the bonus to 15%, which would bring it more in line with Velothi in PvE too.

Monomyth has no realistic downside and crit damage is addative, not multiplicative, meaning if you were in a scenario where you could crit 100% of the time, 20% Major force would provide a bigger boost than 20% Huntsman. This is ignoring the fact that Huntsman reduces your damage to all other targets by -50% and Monomyth gives Minor Berserk, Major Protection, and Minor Vitality. The "downsides" of the mythic are just as negligble as the -50% depending on your playstyle and perspective. So in this comparison, I'd still say Mono is stronger.

Velothi is not a general multiplier, it's "damage done to monsters" which is an entirely seperate bucket, aka, it doesn't have the same deminishing returns so the 15% you see is actually closer to 20% or above if it was a general all purpose multiplier. It also nerfs your light attack (single target) damage to 1%. This in effect has created 2 mythics with distinct playstyle purposes of 1v1 vs cleave, I hope pve dps parses prove this or else the mythic is useless.

Malacath is just bad, it's been bad and should be buffed as you described a bit. I wouldn't call for nerfs over something that hasn't even been properly tested yet.

Plus, even from pvp perspective, I'd rather die to someone with a +20% single target -50% cleave buff, then someone with a proc set which is what this set directly has to compete with. A Werewolf for instance would have trouble taking this set and a monster set at the same time, would I prefer to die to Selenes or this? This every time.

Frankly, I think in all examples given, the playstyle differences are distinct and interesting, none of them really need nerfs. Malacath needs a minor buff, and Mono needs an added negative for both bars since Minor Vuln and Minor Timity are easy to ignore, the pro's outweigh the con's a bit too much there.

propertyOfUndefined · September 29

Agreed! Please, please, please buff Malacath! It will give us more options for interesting builds and offer alternatives to the current meta.

Freelancer_ESO · September 29

Some notes from goofing off with it a bit on the PTS:

It appears to now have a 10 second application cooldown now.

It can be procced with a Scribed bashing Shield Throw if you want to do it from range.

I think the damage reduction may not be kicking in on Trifocus not sure if that is intended or not.

Ratzkifal · September 29

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Huntsman's Warmask - good change, but 20% is a bit too much. Compare that to Malacath's 16%, which comes with a major downside reducing its damage output. Warmask's downside is very minor by comparison. Looking at PvP, as it stands, this mythic is now more powerful than Monomyth (+20% damage > +20% crit damage). It's very easy to apply, has a short cooldown and a long duration with the only downside being that it can be cleansed (which is only relevant against builds that have a cleanse in the first place).

As it stands I think Malacath could probably use a buff up to 20% (the reason Malacath was nerfed down to 16% was because proc sets had high damage and couldn't crit anyway. Now many of them deal lower damage but can crit, which made Malacath weaker, so there is room to buff it).
For Warmask, either increase the cooldown or lower the bonus to 15%, which would bring it more in line with Velothi in PvE too.

The comparison should be to Velothi not Malacath. And Velothi will remain the best in most common fight scenarios.

Malacath is... just a bad Mythic. We don't need things nerfed down to its abysmal level but rather it needs a buff to bring it back up to viability.

We don't want any more decon-fodder slop. We want a situation where sets are legitimately so good that we have to agonize over which is the best in which specific situations.

@YandereGirlfriend Reread what I wrote again. I never suggested Warmask to be "nerfed down to [Malacath's] abysmal level". I was clear that Malacath needs a buff, explained how and why Malacath is underpowered and made a comparison to Velothi when explaining where I think Warmask would still be powerful but not as oppressive as it is currently looking to be in PvP. I even gave an alternative suggestion that would retain the 20% damage buff, leave PvE unaffected and make the downside in PvP more relevant so that it doesn't completely overshadow Monomyth.

ssewallb14_ESO · September 29

Not sure how I feel about 20% damage that can proc off of bash. I'll wait for parses but that seems like it would be insane at the high-end where players can reliably bash weave to keep the effect up without any DPS loss.

Ratzkifal · September 29

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Huntsman's Warmask - good change, but 20% is a bit too much. Compare that to Malacath's 16%, which comes with a major downside reducing its damage output. Warmask's downside is very minor by comparison. Looking at PvP, as it stands, this mythic is now more powerful than Monomyth (+20% damage > +20% crit damage). It's very easy to apply, has a short cooldown and a long duration with the only downside being that it can be cleansed (which is only relevant against builds that have a cleanse in the first place).

As it stands I think Malacath could probably use a buff up to 20% (the reason Malacath was nerfed down to 16% was because proc sets had high damage and couldn't crit anyway. Now many of them deal lower damage but can crit, which made Malacath weaker, so there is room to buff it).
For Warmask, either increase the cooldown or lower the bonus to 15%, which would bring it more in line with Velothi in PvE too.

Monomyth has no realistic downside and crit damage is addative, not multiplicative, meaning if you were in a scenario where you could crit 100% of the time, 20% Major force would provide a bigger boost than 20% Huntsman. This is ignoring the fact that Huntsman reduces your damage to all other targets by -50% and Monomyth gives Minor Berserk, Major Protection, and Minor Vitality. The "downsides" of the mythic are just as negligble as the -50% depending on your playstyle and perspective. So in this comparison, I'd still say Mono is stronger.

Velothi is not a general multiplier, it's "damage done to monsters" which is an entirely seperate bucket, aka, it doesn't have the same deminishing returns so the 15% you see is actually closer to 20% or above if it was a general all purpose multiplier. It also nerfs your light attack (single target) damage to 1%. This in effect has created 2 mythics with distinct playstyle purposes of 1v1 vs cleave, I hope pve dps parses prove this or else the mythic is useless.

Malacath is just bad, it's been bad and should be buffed as you described a bit. I wouldn't call for nerfs over something that hasn't even been properly tested yet.

Plus, even from pvp perspective, I'd rather die to someone with a +20% single target -50% cleave buff, then someone with a proc set which is what this set directly has to compete with. A Werewolf for instance would have trouble taking this set and a monster set at the same time, would I prefer to die to Selenes or this? This every time.

Frankly, I think in all examples given, the playstyle differences are distinct and interesting, none of them really need nerfs. Malacath needs a minor buff, and Mono needs an added negative for both bars since Minor Vuln and Minor Timity are easy to ignore, the pro's outweigh the con's a bit too much there.

@MashmalloMan Your assessment is correct, but I was mostly talking about PvP, especially while comparing it to Monomyth. In PvP you don't have 100% crit chance and sources of Minor Berserk are plenty. The damage reduction to other targets is quite negligible in PvP as well, because for most builds you are going to primarily deal damage to one target at a time, focus that down, then switch to the next target. Obviously for 1vX Northern Storm Wardens or for bombing, this doesn't apply.
I think at 20% Warmask is far stronger than Monomyth on most builds, provided you aren't fighting a build with a lot of cleanses (which to be fair are quite common). But that just reinforces that running forms of cleanse becomes more mandatory, making the strong builds even stronger.

It's a fair point that in PvP the set competes with monster sets, so perhaps I didn't factor that in enough, but I also don't think that it competes with proc sets much either, especially because this buff should multiply proc damage the same way Malacath does. I'd expect people to run proc sets on body and/or weapons with this, for example a Bash Build, scaling off resistance, with Deadlands Demolisher and getting that extra 20% on top with no extra effort involved to apply the buff. That could be quite strong and annoying to fight.

While talking about Velothi, I was talking about PvE, since you correctly noted that it's "damage done to monsters". From a pure PvE perspective, I wouldn't want to see Warmask nerfed either, so if ZOS decides to change it to 15% damage done, and an extra 5% damage done to monsters (or something along those lines) that would be fine with me. Making all of it only apply to monsters is overkill in my opinion. I like it when my mythic stays relevant in both PvE and PvP, like Oakensoul, so the PvPers can run pledges and daily randoms without needing to swap builds.