Solo already take much longer to turn a flag.
@MincMincMinc It should be interesting to imagine how your idea would affect the critical flaws of the two-sided format. Let us assume that it is possible to create 8v8 matches filled with nothing but BG regulars of similar skill. Let us pretend population is infinite, and the matchmaking never needs to expand enough to grab whatever players are available at any given time.
Here's the first flaw:
1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, it's difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.1) Here's a typical 8v8 Deathmatch. Very unbalanced, yes?
2) Use Magic Matchmaking to make both teams identical:
3) Identify the target order. Although there are exceptions, it will generally be determined by squishiness. Tanks and pure healers at the back, gankers and bombers at the front.
4) Do you notice how the BG regular is number 6 out of 8? It means that numbers 1,2 and 3 will just keep coming back before it's time to engage number 6. And if not, 4 and 5 are right there.
The format being 4v4v4 would decrease number 6 position all the way to 3 or 4. If their team was inside a sandwich, it would drop even lower.
Do you see how it was much easier for BG regulars to engage each other in 4v4v4?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order.
1- Becoming squishier. Be it by changing builds or by taking damage, for example.
2- Being out of position.
3- Getting caught inside a sandwich. (obs: lets keep this one separate, even though it should technically be included in the previous option)
Can you think of any other way?
Would they?MincMincMinc wrote: »@MincMincMinc It should be interesting to imagine how your idea would affect the critical flaws of the two-sided format. Let us assume that it is possible to create 8v8 matches filled with nothing but BG regulars of similar skill. Let us pretend population is infinite, and the matchmaking never needs to expand enough to grab whatever players are available at any given time.
Here's the first flaw:
1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, it's difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.1) Here's a typical 8v8 Deathmatch. Very unbalanced, yes?
2) Use Magic Matchmaking to make both teams identical:
3) Identify the target order. Although there are exceptions, it will generally be determined by squishiness. Tanks and pure healers at the back, gankers and bombers at the front.
4) Do you notice how the BG regular is number 6 out of 8? It means that numbers 1,2 and 3 will just keep coming back before it's time to engage number 6. And if not, 4 and 5 are right there.
The format being 4v4v4 would decrease number 6 position all the way to 3 or 4. If their team was inside a sandwich, it would drop even lower.
Do you see how it was much easier for BG regulars to engage each other in 4v4v4?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order.
1- Becoming squishier. Be it by changing builds or by taking damage, for example.
2- Being out of position.
3- Getting caught inside a sandwich. (obs: lets keep this one separate, even though it should technically be included in the previous option)
Can you think of any other way?
Problem with your example there is that you are drawing match K/D or order from a non mmr match. With closer MMR matches your teams would have relatively equal amounts of kills.
Would they?MincMincMinc wrote: »@MincMincMinc It should be interesting to imagine how your idea would affect the critical flaws of the two-sided format. Let us assume that it is possible to create 8v8 matches filled with nothing but BG regulars of similar skill. Let us pretend population is infinite, and the matchmaking never needs to expand enough to grab whatever players are available at any given time.
Here's the first flaw:
1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, it's difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.1) Here's a typical 8v8 Deathmatch. Very unbalanced, yes?
2) Use Magic Matchmaking to make both teams identical:
3) Identify the target order. Although there are exceptions, it will generally be determined by squishiness. Tanks and pure healers at the back, gankers and bombers at the front.
4) Do you notice how the BG regular is number 6 out of 8? It means that numbers 1,2 and 3 will just keep coming back before it's time to engage number 6. And if not, 4 and 5 are right there.
The format being 4v4v4 would decrease number 6 position all the way to 3 or 4. If their team was inside a sandwich, it would drop even lower.
Do you see how it was much easier for BG regulars to engage each other in 4v4v4?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order.
1- Becoming squishier. Be it by changing builds or by taking damage, for example.
2- Being out of position.
3- Getting caught inside a sandwich. (obs: lets keep this one separate, even though it should technically be included in the previous option)
Can you think of any other way?
Problem with your example there is that you are drawing match K/D or order from a non mmr match. With closer MMR matches your teams would have relatively equal amounts of kills.
We're pretending that every single one of the 16 players are BG regulars of similar skill. If they all know how to position, and are capable of identifying the target order, do you see how the latter would be even more obnoxiously static than usual?
But if everyone was of equal skill, and considering the 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order, do you see how it would remain mostly unchanging for the entirety of the match?MincMincMinc wrote: »Would they?MincMincMinc wrote: »@MincMincMinc It should be interesting to imagine how your idea would affect the critical flaws of the two-sided format. Let us assume that it is possible to create 8v8 matches filled with nothing but BG regulars of similar skill. Let us pretend population is infinite, and the matchmaking never needs to expand enough to grab whatever players are available at any given time.
Here's the first flaw:
1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, it's difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.1) Here's a typical 8v8 Deathmatch. Very unbalanced, yes?
2) Use Magic Matchmaking to make both teams identical:
3) Identify the target order. Although there are exceptions, it will generally be determined by squishiness. Tanks and pure healers at the back, gankers and bombers at the front.
4) Do you notice how the BG regular is number 6 out of 8? It means that numbers 1,2 and 3 will just keep coming back before it's time to engage number 6. And if not, 4 and 5 are right there.
The format being 4v4v4 would decrease number 6 position all the way to 3 or 4. If their team was inside a sandwich, it would drop even lower.
Do you see how it was much easier for BG regulars to engage each other in 4v4v4?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order.
1- Becoming squishier. Be it by changing builds or by taking damage, for example.
2- Being out of position.
3- Getting caught inside a sandwich. (obs: lets keep this one separate, even though it should technically be included in the previous option)
Can you think of any other way?
Problem with your example there is that you are drawing match K/D or order from a non mmr match. With closer MMR matches your teams would have relatively equal amounts of kills.
We're pretending that every single one of the 16 players are BG regulars of similar skill. If they all know how to position, and are capable of identifying the target order, do you see how the latter would be even more obnoxiously static than usual?
At the peak of bgs (PCNA atleast) the mmr functioned somewhat better and yes we had matches that were very close skill wise. MMR resetting is still the main driver to how widespread the K/D is of each match. Like we all discussed pages ago.
If they all knew how to position and target, yes it does get annoyingly boring at times. Matches can be 15min long with maybe 1-2 fights because people are so even they just circle around each other. Some of the best bg matches were when everyone would be on their Openworld solo builds because people would actually moshpit and fight. Some of the most obnoxious games would be when everyone is on guaranteed output BG "Premade" builds where combat is so even it dissolves into a first to stick their neck out loses kinda match.
But if everyone was of equal skill, and considering the 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order, do you see how it would remain mostly unchanging for the entirety of the match?MincMincMinc wrote: »Would they?MincMincMinc wrote: »@MincMincMinc It should be interesting to imagine how your idea would affect the critical flaws of the two-sided format. Let us assume that it is possible to create 8v8 matches filled with nothing but BG regulars of similar skill. Let us pretend population is infinite, and the matchmaking never needs to expand enough to grab whatever players are available at any given time.
Here's the first flaw:
1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, it's difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.1) Here's a typical 8v8 Deathmatch. Very unbalanced, yes?
2) Use Magic Matchmaking to make both teams identical:
3) Identify the target order. Although there are exceptions, it will generally be determined by squishiness. Tanks and pure healers at the back, gankers and bombers at the front.
4) Do you notice how the BG regular is number 6 out of 8? It means that numbers 1,2 and 3 will just keep coming back before it's time to engage number 6. And if not, 4 and 5 are right there.
The format being 4v4v4 would decrease number 6 position all the way to 3 or 4. If their team was inside a sandwich, it would drop even lower.
Do you see how it was much easier for BG regulars to engage each other in 4v4v4?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order.
1- Becoming squishier. Be it by changing builds or by taking damage, for example.
2- Being out of position.
3- Getting caught inside a sandwich. (obs: lets keep this one separate, even though it should technically be included in the previous option)
Can you think of any other way?
Problem with your example there is that you are drawing match K/D or order from a non mmr match. With closer MMR matches your teams would have relatively equal amounts of kills.
We're pretending that every single one of the 16 players are BG regulars of similar skill. If they all know how to position, and are capable of identifying the target order, do you see how the latter would be even more obnoxiously static than usual?
At the peak of bgs (PCNA atleast) the mmr functioned somewhat better and yes we had matches that were very close skill wise. MMR resetting is still the main driver to how widespread the K/D is of each match. Like we all discussed pages ago.
If they all knew how to position and target, yes it does get annoyingly boring at times. Matches can be 15min long with maybe 1-2 fights because people are so even they just circle around each other. Some of the best bg matches were when everyone would be on their Openworld solo builds because people would actually moshpit and fight. Some of the most obnoxious games would be when everyone is on guaranteed output BG "Premade" builds where combat is so even it dissolves into a first to stick their neck out loses kinda match.
MincMincMinc wrote: »But if everyone was of equal skill, and considering the 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order, do you see how it would remain mostly unchanging for the entirety of the match?MincMincMinc wrote: »Would they?MincMincMinc wrote: »@MincMincMinc It should be interesting to imagine how your idea would affect the critical flaws of the two-sided format. Let us assume that it is possible to create 8v8 matches filled with nothing but BG regulars of similar skill. Let us pretend population is infinite, and the matchmaking never needs to expand enough to grab whatever players are available at any given time.
Here's the first flaw:
1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, it's difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.1) Here's a typical 8v8 Deathmatch. Very unbalanced, yes?
2) Use Magic Matchmaking to make both teams identical:
3) Identify the target order. Although there are exceptions, it will generally be determined by squishiness. Tanks and pure healers at the back, gankers and bombers at the front.
4) Do you notice how the BG regular is number 6 out of 8? It means that numbers 1,2 and 3 will just keep coming back before it's time to engage number 6. And if not, 4 and 5 are right there.
The format being 4v4v4 would decrease number 6 position all the way to 3 or 4. If their team was inside a sandwich, it would drop even lower.
Do you see how it was much easier for BG regulars to engage each other in 4v4v4?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order.
1- Becoming squishier. Be it by changing builds or by taking damage, for example.
2- Being out of position.
3- Getting caught inside a sandwich. (obs: lets keep this one separate, even though it should technically be included in the previous option)
Can you think of any other way?
Problem with your example there is that you are drawing match K/D or order from a non mmr match. With closer MMR matches your teams would have relatively equal amounts of kills.
We're pretending that every single one of the 16 players are BG regulars of similar skill. If they all know how to position, and are capable of identifying the target order, do you see how the latter would be even more obnoxiously static than usual?
At the peak of bgs (PCNA atleast) the mmr functioned somewhat better and yes we had matches that were very close skill wise. MMR resetting is still the main driver to how widespread the K/D is of each match. Like we all discussed pages ago.
If they all knew how to position and target, yes it does get annoyingly boring at times. Matches can be 15min long with maybe 1-2 fights because people are so even they just circle around each other. Some of the best bg matches were when everyone would be on their Openworld solo builds because people would actually moshpit and fight. Some of the most obnoxious games would be when everyone is on guaranteed output BG "Premade" builds where combat is so even it dissolves into a first to stick their neck out loses kinda match.
What would remain mostly unchanging?
MincMincMinc wrote: »But if everyone was of equal skill, and considering the 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order, do you see how it would remain mostly unchanging for the entirety of the match?MincMincMinc wrote: »Would they?MincMincMinc wrote: »@MincMincMinc It should be interesting to imagine how your idea would affect the critical flaws of the two-sided format. Let us assume that it is possible to create 8v8 matches filled with nothing but BG regulars of similar skill. Let us pretend population is infinite, and the matchmaking never needs to expand enough to grab whatever players are available at any given time.
Here's the first flaw:
1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, it's difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.1) Here's a typical 8v8 Deathmatch. Very unbalanced, yes?
2) Use Magic Matchmaking to make both teams identical:
3) Identify the target order. Although there are exceptions, it will generally be determined by squishiness. Tanks and pure healers at the back, gankers and bombers at the front.
4) Do you notice how the BG regular is number 6 out of 8? It means that numbers 1,2 and 3 will just keep coming back before it's time to engage number 6. And if not, 4 and 5 are right there.
The format being 4v4v4 would decrease number 6 position all the way to 3 or 4. If their team was inside a sandwich, it would drop even lower.
Do you see how it was much easier for BG regulars to engage each other in 4v4v4?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order.
1- Becoming squishier. Be it by changing builds or by taking damage, for example.
2- Being out of position.
3- Getting caught inside a sandwich. (obs: lets keep this one separate, even though it should technically be included in the previous option)
Can you think of any other way?
Problem with your example there is that you are drawing match K/D or order from a non mmr match. With closer MMR matches your teams would have relatively equal amounts of kills.
We're pretending that every single one of the 16 players are BG regulars of similar skill. If they all know how to position, and are capable of identifying the target order, do you see how the latter would be even more obnoxiously static than usual?
At the peak of bgs (PCNA atleast) the mmr functioned somewhat better and yes we had matches that were very close skill wise. MMR resetting is still the main driver to how widespread the K/D is of each match. Like we all discussed pages ago.
If they all knew how to position and target, yes it does get annoyingly boring at times. Matches can be 15min long with maybe 1-2 fights because people are so even they just circle around each other. Some of the best bg matches were when everyone would be on their Openworld solo builds because people would actually moshpit and fight. Some of the most obnoxious games would be when everyone is on guaranteed output BG "Premade" builds where combat is so even it dissolves into a first to stick their neck out loses kinda match.
What would remain mostly unchanging?
The target order.
''1- Becoming squishier by any means, such as taking damage or even changing builds.''
If every single player knew how to identify the target order, there would be no deviating from it, for any reason.
''2- Being out of position.''
In our shared fantasy, all 16 players know how to position.
''3- Getting caught inside a sandwich.''
There is no sandwich.
propertyOfUndefined wrote: »8v8 almost always ends with 1 team on their balcony.
4v4v4 may have had teams who tried to avoid fighting to instead work towards the match objective, but I never considered that a bad thing. As fun as death matches are, I enjoy winning more -- especially if it's achieved in a clever way. Honestly, those victories are the most satisfying.
Why not bring back 4v4v4, but re-purpose 4v4 as arena death matches?
Let's do it. I've tried asking mathGPT, but I must be doing something wrong because it keeps giving me almost a billion possibilities of balanced matches for three-sided. @MincMincMinc where's the Minc math?It was impossible for an unpredictable 4v4v4 match to be boring. As long as no one cheesed the ball, three-sided Chaosball had the potential to be the most unpredictable game mode of all. Instead, here's what we get:
This time, I was lucky enough to briefly catch a glimpse of a single opponent at the beginning of the match.
It's hard to tell, but that looks like the map where they bungled the Chaosball points, the normal one is granting 10, while the other two are only worth 3 each. Do you think it's related?
How many unbelievably fun three-sided matches could've been formed with these players?
Is that a rhetorical question? It probably can be calculated.
Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 97: Waiting 20 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)
The reason you can’t calculate it is because you don’t have enough criteria for any realistic analysis.
The only value you might be able to give a formula is an estimation of population size. At that point, all the math can do is exponentially factor out match combinations based on the total server population; and that’s going to be an enormous number that’s inaccurate.
- There are 3 teams.
- Each team has 4 players.
- The maximum number of available veterans is 12 (all distinct).
- Each team must have the same number of veterans and at least 1 veteran per team.
- There are 9 distinct newcomers available.
- Since each team has 4 players, the number of veterans per team can be 1, 2, 3, or 4, as long as it is the same for all teams and the total number of veterans used does not exceed 12.
How many different matches can be created under these conditions?
MincMincMinc wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »But if everyone was of equal skill, and considering the 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order, do you see how it would remain mostly unchanging for the entirety of the match?MincMincMinc wrote: »Would they?MincMincMinc wrote: »@MincMincMinc It should be interesting to imagine how your idea would affect the critical flaws of the two-sided format. Let us assume that it is possible to create 8v8 matches filled with nothing but BG regulars of similar skill. Let us pretend population is infinite, and the matchmaking never needs to expand enough to grab whatever players are available at any given time.
Here's the first flaw:
1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, it's difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.1) Here's a typical 8v8 Deathmatch. Very unbalanced, yes?
2) Use Magic Matchmaking to make both teams identical:
3) Identify the target order. Although there are exceptions, it will generally be determined by squishiness. Tanks and pure healers at the back, gankers and bombers at the front.
4) Do you notice how the BG regular is number 6 out of 8? It means that numbers 1,2 and 3 will just keep coming back before it's time to engage number 6. And if not, 4 and 5 are right there.
The format being 4v4v4 would decrease number 6 position all the way to 3 or 4. If their team was inside a sandwich, it would drop even lower.
Do you see how it was much easier for BG regulars to engage each other in 4v4v4?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order.
1- Becoming squishier. Be it by changing builds or by taking damage, for example.
2- Being out of position.
3- Getting caught inside a sandwich. (obs: lets keep this one separate, even though it should technically be included in the previous option)
Can you think of any other way?
Problem with your example there is that you are drawing match K/D or order from a non mmr match. With closer MMR matches your teams would have relatively equal amounts of kills.
We're pretending that every single one of the 16 players are BG regulars of similar skill. If they all know how to position, and are capable of identifying the target order, do you see how the latter would be even more obnoxiously static than usual?
At the peak of bgs (PCNA atleast) the mmr functioned somewhat better and yes we had matches that were very close skill wise. MMR resetting is still the main driver to how widespread the K/D is of each match. Like we all discussed pages ago.
If they all knew how to position and target, yes it does get annoyingly boring at times. Matches can be 15min long with maybe 1-2 fights because people are so even they just circle around each other. Some of the best bg matches were when everyone would be on their Openworld solo builds because people would actually moshpit and fight. Some of the most obnoxious games would be when everyone is on guaranteed output BG "Premade" builds where combat is so even it dissolves into a first to stick their neck out loses kinda match.
What would remain mostly unchanging?
The target order.
''1- Becoming squishier by any means, such as taking damage or even changing builds.''
If every single player knew how to identify the target order, there would be no deviating from it, for any reason.
''2- Being out of position.''
In our shared fantasy, all 16 players know how to position.
''3- Getting caught inside a sandwich.''
There is no sandwich.
Yeah those are basic survival of the fittest concepts. Be strong, dont put yourself in danger, dont get cornered by predators.
You wont be able to remove those dynamics
BG is basically rage bait pvp, anyone who actually plays real pvp games outside of eso can see how pathetic this is. The match up is rigged , 4v4 and somehow the enemy gets a healer while we don’t, and we’re thrown in with 500 cp players against 3k plus. Yeah real fair and real "competitive". CP does matter even if disabled, the gears and experience gap is massive. How is this still a thing? What exactly is the team even doing for bg.If dungeons can have roles then so can BG lmaooo. It’s like they never even touched a real pvp game like League or Dota, so why even bother trying to make one. Nobody even knows BG exists, And yes those are real pvp games.You’ll never see an esport stadium packed for BG like League did, not now not ever. It’s trying way too hard to look competitive.
propertyOfUndefined wrote: »8v8 almost always ends with 1 team on their balcony.
4v4v4 may have had teams who tried to avoid fighting to instead work towards the match objective, but I never considered that a bad thing. As fun as death matches are, I enjoy winning more -- especially if it's achieved in a clever way. Honestly, those victories are the most satisfying.
Why not bring back 4v4v4, but re-purpose 4v4 as arena death matches?
propertyOfUndefined wrote: »8v8 almost always ends with 1 team on their balcony.
4v4v4 may have had teams who tried to avoid fighting to instead work towards the match objective, but I never considered that a bad thing. As fun as death matches are, I enjoy winning more -- especially if it's achieved in a clever way. Honestly, those victories are the most satisfying.
Why not bring back 4v4v4, but re-purpose 4v4 as arena death matches?
@propertyOfUndefined I've proposed a few small changes what would make it a little harder for the third team to complete the objective modes uncontested. What do you think about this?
@MincMincMinc It should be interesting to imagine how your idea would affect the critical flaws of the two-sided format. Let us assume that it is possible to create 8v8 matches filled with nothing but BG regulars of similar skill. Let us pretend population is infinite, and the matchmaking never needs to expand enough to grab whatever players are available at any given time.
Here's the first flaw:
1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, it's difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.1) Here's a typical 8v8 Deathmatch. Very unbalanced, yes?
2) Use Magic Matchmaking to make both teams identical:
3) Identify the target order. Although there are exceptions, it will generally be determined by squishiness. Tanks and pure healers at the back, gankers and bombers at the front.
4) Do you notice how the BG regular is number 6 out of 8? It means that numbers 1,2 and 3 will just keep coming back before it's time to engage number 6. And if not, 4 and 5 are right there.
The format being 4v4v4 would decrease number 6 position all the way to 3 or 4. If their team was inside a sandwich, it would drop even lower.
Do you see how it was much easier for BG regulars to engage each other in 4v4v4?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order.
1- Becoming squishier by any means, such as taking damage or even changing builds.
2- Being out of position.
3- Getting caught inside a sandwich. (obs: lets keep this one separate, even though it should technically be included in the previous option)
Can you think of any other way?
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Eso pvp was successful because it was different..
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »Eso pvp was successful because it was different..
BG's in this game weren't successful. The playerbase was so small the devs were reluctant to split it when people complained about wanted separate queues for this or that.
A successful PvP game doesn't do a complete revamp from 3 teams to 2 teams that fundamentally changes its PvP if the 3 teams were a success, you only go to that extreme when what you have is not working.
I've never played the 2 team BGs in this game, because I have not played the game in a couple of years, but 3 team BGs were trash, the absolute worst PvP I've ever played (3 teams is fundamentally flawed, which is why no one uses it) and one of the big reasons I stopped playing this game. The idea that they were successful is laughable.
Joy_Division wrote: »@MincMincMinc It should be interesting to imagine how your idea would affect the critical flaws of the two-sided format. Let us assume that it is possible to create 8v8 matches filled with nothing but BG regulars of similar skill. Let us pretend population is infinite, and the matchmaking never needs to expand enough to grab whatever players are available at any given time.
Here's the first flaw:
1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, it's difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.1) Here's a typical 8v8 Deathmatch. Very unbalanced, yes?
2) Use Magic Matchmaking to make both teams identical:
3) Identify the target order. Although there are exceptions, it will generally be determined by squishiness. Tanks and pure healers at the back, gankers and bombers at the front.
4) Do you notice how the BG regular is number 6 out of 8? It means that numbers 1,2 and 3 will just keep coming back before it's time to engage number 6. And if not, 4 and 5 are right there.
The format being 4v4v4 would decrease number 6 position all the way to 3 or 4. If their team was inside a sandwich, it would drop even lower.
Do you see how it was much easier for BG regulars to engage each other in 4v4v4?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 3 ways to lower one's place in the target order.
1- Becoming squishier by any means, such as taking damage or even changing builds.
2- Being out of position.
3- Getting caught inside a sandwich. (obs: lets keep this one separate, even though it should technically be included in the previous option)
Can you think of any other way?
The point is because there are these unpredictable variables such as ego, indiscipline, player boredom, differing levels of seriousness, etc., the two team format is not destined to be perpetually fail because of some inherent flaw in the format (that somehow only ESO seems to suffer from). This is especially true for ungrouped 8v8s where there isn't a coordinated group to begin with. The many flaws in ESO BGs is a consequence of the company having one single update for BGs in the past 7 years.
MincMincMinc wrote: »Ok so assuming that mixing high and low MMR players is inevitable, we need to find ways to make the three-sided objective modes fun for everyone, regardless of skill level.MincMincMinc wrote: »So if the matchmaking search had to expand enough it would still put players of vastly different skill levels in the same matches, right?
Yes, (...) Even if the population of bgs collapsed to say 30 people, the MMR system would still function, but in these more niche scenarios you would then start leaning on other mechanics to prevent issues.
Here's how I'd fix Domination and Crazy King:Even in the worst case scenario (two teams fight while the third flips all remaining flags uncontested), it would be impossible to end any of these matches in less than 10 minutes.
- Reduce the amount of points each flag gives per tick. Domination from 8 to 4, Crazy King from 8 to 6.
- Modify flags to require a minimum of two players to be fully captured. Solo players would still be able to hinder the opponents' progress by turning them white, but running around without even drawing weapons would no longer be the ultimate winning strategy.
@MincMincMinc Do you see any problem with these changes?
No that makes sense. Really its more like zos just needs to tune the games to be a standard duration. No matter the game mode you shouldnt be able to end it objectively in 2 mins, when other games are 15mins full duration.
Things like chaos ball being held at spawn, why not make it only held in a designated area so they are more prone to actually fighting over it?
3 team CTF is probably the hardest to deal with. Nothing to stop the third team from running 5 flags uncontested within a minute if they really wanted to. Youd probably have to require them to capture both enemy flags in order to gain points. CTF is really more of a two sided gamemode.
Crazy king also shouldn't be spamming uncontested flags all over the place, incentivizing people to not pvp
Two objective modes down, two to go. I'm leaving CTR for last, but there is a plan for that too.
Chaosball
PROBLEMSSOLUTIONS
- Ball carrier could move around the map at high speed. Would be all but impossible to catch.
- Players could take the ball to cheesy places where they couldn't be damaged OR where you had to give up your life to damage them.
- Reduce ball carrier speed by 30%
- Fix cheesy places.
Anything missing?
Cheesy places should be fixxed.
Reducing ball carrier speed by 30% hits players without speed increase the same and relatively even more. Should rather set a speedcap for ballcarrier (lower than the cap for anyone else). Can be hardcap or sofcap (with reduced speed increase above).
I don't understand. You're right that the old 4vs4vs4 mode was the best, but...
Even after its return, we'll complain, or at least I will. I'll repeat myself, but this game has lost any quality since literally 90% of BG players currently play surprise attack/deep/streak/merciless. Last has long been the meta, dealing more damage than most ULTIs. It's been there for a long time, and now it's become more prevalent again, with damage stacked for several seconds at a one ms time, or taking damage after 5 seconds while hiding behind walls. Of course, I support the return of the 4v4v4 mode, but I know that the only thing it will currently do is increase pve farmer's chances of hitting daily faster. First, the game needs to be fixed and minimally balanced, because without that, no mode will be enjoyable. I just want to vomit when I see the same thing over and over again: the same 8 builds and one team ending up on the balcony, no matter which side i'm on.
P.s. Look how much ESO ratings have unfortunately dropped across all platforms. This isn't out of nowhere.