Subclassing: what are some ways that you use to deal with loss of class identity?

tomofhyrule · September 5

Honest question for everyone who is extremely happy with Subclassing:

Would it have made it terrible for you if ZOS had balanced Subclassing before release? Like if there were multiple builds (including those who retain all three of the parent Class lines) that could all do well, instead of just one set of three lines that are overpowering everything else.

A lot of people are trying to make this seem like a very "us vs. them" thing, when I really think that most of that conflict would not have existed if only they had put an iota of thought into balancing Subclassing before releasing it. At that point, everyone's favored build could exist, and then we don't have to make people who want their character to be a fire-breathing rock-stomping, dragon-hearted warrior feel like they're "objectively wrong."

Erickson9610 · September 5

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Honest question for everyone who is extremely happy with Subclassing:

Would it have made it terrible for you if ZOS had balanced Subclassing before release? Like if there were multiple builds (including those who retain all three of the parent Class lines) that could all do well, instead of just one set of three lines that are overpowering everything else.

A lot of people are trying to make this seem like a very "us vs. them" thing, when I really think that most of that conflict would not have existed if only they had put an iota of thought into balancing Subclassing before releasing it. At that point, everyone's favored build could exist, and then we don't have to make people who want their character to be a fire-breathing rock-stomping, dragon-hearted warrior feel like they're "objectively wrong."

Balancing will happen. It could not have happened before Subclassing was released, because that's a lot of work. I believe the goal is to allow players with any three class skill lines — even "pureclass" builds — to perform equally well. Well, as performant as you can get if ZOS keeps this mixture of role-oriented and theme-oriented skill lines in the class roster.

You're not objectively wrong for wanting the class fantasy of a Dragonknight. The same way someone who wants to play a werewolf shouldn't be objectively wrong to exist in PvE and PvP, despite having no place in the meta this patch. Both pureclass Dragonknight and Werewolf have specific power fantasies that aren't respected in the current meta.

And since I believe ZOS will balance Subclassing to make pureclass builds legitimate in the meta again, I should also believe that ZOS may balance Werewolf to be legitimate in the meta again — it's only a matter of time.

randconfig · September 5

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I've always been a supporter of no classes in ESO. Subclassing is a big improvement because it brings things much closer to being able to build my own class rather than maintaining several classes with none of them quite hitting the mark.

This. Plus as soon as they start churning out more skill styles (idk why we're getting like 2 or 3 a patch, at least churn out a few complete sets recolor styles, that really shouldn't be that hard I feel like), then we'll be able to make sorc abilities look like the neon green arcanist abilities, or make arcanist abilities look like ice for a Warden theme, or fire for flame ardent dragon knight theme, and so on.

WhoThenNow7 · September 5

I'm enjoying sub-classing very much. It brought me back to the game, and I enjoy a variety of activities, such as, PVP, veteran dungeons, veteran trials, veteran arenas, etc. I like being able to have different armory slots with different builds/ideas all on the same character, because I hate grinding the basic stuff on a fresh toon. That's just me, some people don't mind it. But I like feeling like I'm constantly evolving my main character that I've had since the beginning.

AcadianPaladin · September 5

WhoThenNow7 wrote: »

I'm enjoying sub-classing very much. It brought me back to the game, and I enjoy a variety of activities, such as, PVP, veteran dungeons, veteran trials, veteran arenas, etc. I like being able to have different armory slots with different builds/ideas all on the same character, because I hate grinding the basic stuff on a fresh toon. That's just me, some people don't mind it. But I like feeling like I'm constantly evolving my main character that I've had since the beginning.

Good point here about subclassing helping to avoid the tedium of starting new characters. Getting to L50 is easy and I find numerous skill lines enjoyable (FG, MG, Undaunted). However, I just don't have ANY interest in grinding (or paying) to level up Legardemain, mount training, Antiquities or Scribing ever again. I thought that a class change token would be helpful but am even more pleased to have subclassing since it moves us closer to other ES games in either not having classes or having classes that don't overly matter.

DoofusMax · September 5

Recent wrote: »

1. How do you feel about this change?
2. Do you find yourself struggling with your character's class identity after subclassing?
3. If you have embraced subclassing what did you do to still keep your character's class .

I'll preface by noting that after having leveled up all 21 class skill lines to 50 as subclassed skills, I have no characters who are currently using any subclassed skills. I might change my mind on that at some point in the future, but I don't currently see much need for it in order to do the things that I'm currently doing. That's mostly running around doing solo stuff, but that includes group dungeons (farming some leads, mostly, but filling out my stickerbook in the process), World Bosses/Events, and the like. I think one or two classes which had been nerfed in earlier updates probably benefit from being able to subclass, but I'm choosing not to. It's partially related to class identity. For example, are you a Nightblade (or whatever) when two-thirds of your skills are coming from other classes? How about one third? It's kind of an "at what point does a pile become a heap?" kind of thing, but there's no question that a Necro is a Necro or a DK is a DK when they only have their class' skills.

As for how I feel about it, not subclassing is working for me, but I've never been anywhere close to meta except by accident. I'm much more leery of PvP than I was before, but I don't PvP much outside of Whitestrake's and Vengeance anyway, so not a major change.

Yudo · September 5

Class identity is paramount to me. I do not subclass at all. I thought I can ignore it after U46 and that is what I did. I am still able to play as I did before, but have to accept that in trials I am one of the lowest DPS, which has lead to some discriminating feedback. And In PvP, I am overwhelmed with the constant deep fissure merc combos. Feels like playing with a handicap really. Then some changes came with U47 for sorcs where the max resource uptime became harder. Have to try so hard to be mid now. The joy for what I am looking for in this game and had before is kind of gone.

Have tried subclassing for a few combos, levelled a bunch of them even, but in the end the pure class kit is still more fun both for RP and gameplay. I tried to go for more competitive builds but in the end the entire process and even the playstyle changes were no longer fun.

U46 has changed this game from core. I think some ppl don't understand the difference sometimes. I may not have purchased this game to begin with if subclassing was there from the get go. The onboarding and actual game is in contradiction now. I now play other games but still login here to play with friends. Overall a big thumbs down for me.

tomofhyrule · September 5

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AcadianPaladin wrote: »

WhoThenNow7 wrote: »

I'm enjoying sub-classing very much. It brought me back to the game, and I enjoy a variety of activities, such as, PVP, veteran dungeons, veteran trials, veteran arenas, etc. I like being able to have different armory slots with different builds/ideas all on the same character, because I hate grinding the basic stuff on a fresh toon. That's just me, some people don't mind it. But I like feeling like I'm constantly evolving my main character that I've had since the beginning.

Good point here about subclassing helping to avoid the tedium of starting new characters. Getting to L50 is easy and I find numerous skill lines enjoyable (FG, MG, Undaunted). However, I just don't have ANY interest in grinding (or paying) to level up Legardemain, mount training, Antiquities or Scribing ever again. I thought that a class change token would be helpful but am even more pleased to have subclassing since it moves us closer to other ES games in either not having classes or having classes that don't overly matter.

And yet there are some of us who very much enjoy levelling new characters. I for one am dying to get a new Class so I can make a brand new character (who already had 8 pages of lore notes that I need to write up as soon as I know what his abilities are).

I am a TES fan, but I also recognize that as an MMO, ESO must have some mechanics that differ from the mainline solo RPGs. Nobody went into Legends expecting the standard skills, after all.

Subclassing is a great way for them to add new Classes in such a way that people who don't want to level a new character can just pick up those lines, but also doesn't take away from the people who do like the way ESO works. I'd love if they made Subclassing even freer - remove the XP and skill point penalties, allow swapping all three lines, and allow taking multiple lines from the same parent Class - but I would just like them to balance this properly. U47 did start making it so some lines have unique ultigen passives that don't stack with each other, but are still unique non-named buffs. I hope they continue to do that with the other passives.

But one person's enjoyment of the game should not involve removing someone else's.

Recent · September 6

Elvenheart wrote: »

Recent wrote: »

Hi forum friends,
at first I admit I was all against subclassing mainly cos I felt overwhelmed by all the changes I came back to in eso after a break. I play all classes and my alts have their skill lines maxed out so I do feel lucky in that way. However, I now have subclass skilllines on all my alts, I still kept their pure class builds saved on my armory just incase.
What I have found as I level up my subclass skills is that I am losing my character's class identity. There are many times i need to try to remember what class they are.

1. How do you feel about this change?
2. Do you find yourself struggling with your character's class identity after subclassing?
3. If you have embraced subclassing what did you do to still keep your character's class identity

I want to embrace subclassing cos it's here to stay and I have to admit it is fun being able to mix different skills from different classes. I just need some ideas to help me keep moving forward with this subclassing.
I appreciate all your comments and I'm reading each one. Your input on this topic has been phenomenal.

Love your question! I see you’ve gotten a lot of answers that run the gamut so I just thought I would throw mine in there.

When Subclassing was first announced, I was really excited about the concept! My first thought was that I could finally create the class I’ve always wanted, an Elementalist. I had an old level one Sorcerer that I just used to hold a name and for inventory space. I leveled that character to 50 using only the Storm Calling line and collected every skyshard in the game before Subclassiing ever went live. Since this character’s class identity was already an Elementalist in my mind, I played him like until he got better at mastering his powers he could only use Storm Calling. When Subclassing went live, the first thing I did was swap out the other two class lines for Ardent Flames and Winter’s Embrace, and finally, I had my dream class. I won’t say it’s any better or worse than any other classes, it’s definitely not “the meta”, but it’s fun for my play style.

Well, with that done, l was finally to start thinking about what to do with my existing characters. And that was when I ran into a block. For the most part, I found I liked my existing characters just the way they were. I also realized that if I subclassed any of them, I would have to have a good story reason for why it happened. It’s taken me this long, but just this week I decided to subclass my no-pet Oakensoul Sorcerer. The thing that kept me from doing it was that he used Hardened Ward, but inspiration from a friend finally helped me about the bullet. I’ve given him assassination and Adric spear, and so far those classes are at level 27. I can’t believe how fast they leveled, just finishing the Subclassing quest made them jump to level 7 and that’s without any experience scrolls and only one skill from each line on the skill bar! At that point, I unlocked another skill on each line and put those on the skill bar as well, and I have used some 50% EXP scrolls while running random daily dungeons. I’ve done this the last two days and got them to level 25 that way already. As for the endgame reasoning, this character always hated the thought of summoning daedra or dark magic and only used one skill from those lines anyway, so now he’s just becoming more of the way I originally envisioned him to be, so in my mind, his class identity has not changed, just become more accurate.

Another couple of ideas I have for existing characters that in my mind preserves their class identity for me - if I give Herald of the Tome to one of my characters, they will still be whatever class they were before, but they will have been chosen by Apocrypha to receive a Book, so I’ll swap that out with their least used class line, but they’ll still be the same class to me. And one of my vampire Nightblades is thinking about starting to learn Necromancy, but they’ll still be a Nightblade, one that just is learning some Necromatic skills.

I really enjoyed reading your detailed comment. Thank you so much..I love your ideas that bring a lot of fun to role-playing our characters' development as they venture out on their subclassing journey. Gave you an awesome for this. Brilliant ideas.

heimdall14_9 · September 6

class identity has been long gone for a lot longer then subclasses came about WEAPON/GUILD skills and then SCRIBED skills had taken over just about EVERY CLASS wearing THE SAME SETS , using the SAME SKILLS that CLASS really had no identity outside of class buffs

YandereGirlfriend · September 6

Honestly, the ESO classes always felt artificial to me since most of them have no basis in the lore of the earlier games, so there is not really anything being lost in my eyes.

Even within classes, the skill lines are often disjointed and seemingly random in terms of theming, so swapping one or two out for other skill lines that better fit the vibe that you want for your character makes the power fantasy stronger, IMO.

moderatelyfatman · September 7

Recent wrote: »

Hi forum friends,
at first I admit I was all against subclassing mainly cos I felt overwhelmed by all the changes I came back to in eso after a break. I play all classes and my alts have their skill lines maxed out so I do feel lucky in that way. However, I now have subclass skilllines on all my alts, I still kept their pure class builds saved on my armory just incase.
What I have found as I level up my subclass skills is that I am losing my character's class identity. There are many times i need to try to remember what class they are.

1. How do you feel about this change?
2. Do you find yourself struggling with your character's class identity after subclassing?
3. If you have embraced subclassing what did you do to still keep your character's class identity

I want to embrace subclassing cos it's here to stay and I have to admit it is fun being able to mix different skills from different classes. I just need some ideas to help me keep moving forward with this subclassing.
I appreciate all your comments and I'm reading each one. Your input on this topic has been phenomenal.

I'm playing another game with good class identity until ESO fixes itself.
Bottom line, it's not your job to invent your own unique and exciting playstyles, it's ZOS's.

WhoThenNow7 · September 7

By doing what I want, choosing what I want, and having fun doing it.

ThoraxtheDark · September 7

I had 29 builds and I dealt with it by quitting the game.

jm42 · September 7

stopped playing and cancelled eso+. just reading the patch notes now, waiting if something will look interesting enough

SilverIce58 · September 7

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Honestly, the ESO classes always felt artificial to me since most of them have no basis in the lore of the earlier games, so there is not really anything being lost in my eyes.

Even within classes, the skill lines are often disjointed and seemingly random in terms of theming, so swapping one or two out for other skill lines that better fit the vibe that you want for your character makes the power fantasy stronger, IMO.

This. I always felt stifled by the class system of ESO where I wanted to create my characters like how the numbered titles let you. Pick and choose your skills from a list of them all to make your own class basically. Now I don't feel restricted when coming up with ideas for characters. My Nightingale-inspired Templar for one can finally use Shadow in addition to his Sun Fire and Aedric Spear lines to make for a nice corrupted priest. Sticks to the shadows, uses dark sun fire, and his once golden spears touched by Lady Nocturnal have gained a blue glow to them 💙.

spartaxoxo · September 7

Give each character a backstory for why they know other class stuff.