Subclassing: what are some ways that you use to deal with loss of class identity?

Recent

Hi forum friends,
at first I admit I was all against subclassing mainly cos I felt overwhelmed by all the changes I came back to in eso after a break. I play all classes and my alts have their skill lines maxed out so I do feel lucky in that way. However, I now have subclass skilllines on all my alts, I still kept their pure class builds saved on my armory just incase.
What I have found as I level up my subclass skills is that I am losing my character's class identity. There are many times i need to try to remember what class they are.

1. How do you feel about this change?
2. Do you find yourself struggling with your character's class identity after subclassing?
3. If you have embraced subclassing what did you do to still keep your character's class identity


I want to embrace subclassing cos it's here to stay and I have to admit it is fun being able to mix different skills from different classes. I just need some ideas to help me keep moving forward with this subclassing.
I appreciate all your comments and I'm reading each one. Your input on this topic has been phenomenal.

Horace-Wimp

I am a member of the non-subclassing playerbase so that is how I am dealing with class identity. I do not see any value in subclassing and avoid it. Perhaps in time this will change.

One thing that ZOS could do to get me interested is to simply let me add each skill line to my main without having to give up anything. They can still restrict my ability choices to three skill lines per ability bar but needing to unlearn a skill line to learn another skill line is, for me at least, tedious and boring.

But honestly, even if ZOS did allow this change I probably still would not subclass. Subclassing looks good on paper but in practice I find it to be a dud. Maybe because I don't PvP. /shrug

AcadianPaladin

I've always been a supporter of no classes in ESO. Subclassing is a big improvement because it brings things much closer to being able to build my own class rather than maintaining several classes with none of them quite hitting the mark.

silky_soft

Staying true to nightblade identity by not sub in a sea of faster then sprint cap streak spamming.

They should of put subclassing with antiques, scribing and used cp stars to limit what was possible. What a massive missed opportunity to weave it into game mechanics.

Nemesis7884

instead of loosing a forced class identity that was very shallow due to the ongoing standardization of skills anyway what you are gaining is a huge amount of character / power fantasy identity because you can tailor a character much more around a specific fantasy - example

you want to build a ranger or druid or elementalist or ??? you can tailor it around that fantasy with the specific combination of skills and subclasses....

I think the way zos is moving to more of a classless skill system is not only much more Elder Scrolls, it also gives you much more freedom to tailor a specific character around your idea/ fantasy...

TES never had good class identity compared to something like for example GW2 who does that imo much better

Soarora

Majority of the time I don't subclass and I'm not spending much time in the game.

Erickson9610

I am one of those people who enjoy Subclassing. I've always just wanted to stick with one character, but my main motivation for leveling up other classes was for PvP builds only possible with those other classes. So, I'd have one main character for all content and then several neglected characters for PvP builds I couldn't try on my main.

Even now, there's still a lot of restriction. I can't use the Class Mastery or Class Sets of other classes, so I'll still have to pick up an alternate character just to play certain builds.

Because of this, I like to keep at least two skill lines of my base class for PvP builds that I theorycraft, partially because I'm trying to cope with the fact that my main will probably never get to use those builds that other classes can use. So, my solution is to just make a build that only my class can use, leveraging the restrictions of Subclassing in my favor.

BretonMage

I took a break during u46 but came back for u47 when ZOS made an attempt to rein in some of the power disparity of the meta.

I did give in to subclassing, but I'm only doing it to the extent that makes sense for my character. I still dislike the beam but at least it's a class grounded in magic, so I remain a mage. So there's that.

I dislike the gameplay of the beam, but in a game with mob packs and adds everywhere, I have to admit I love the constant AOE. If they gave the lightning staff its AOE back I'd be happier but this is alright (though not fun) for now.

I would never subclass into a weapon/physical damage class like NB though.

Tldr: subclassing into Arcanist was not fun but acceptable for rp reasons since I remain a mage.

Personofsecrets

I've switched back to PvP with DK lines only. It sucks to not have any escape mechanisms, but being multiclassed was wretched.

Chrisilis

Leveled a few skill lines and tried them out in Battlegrounds. I've been a one bar magsorc for years and found subclassing didn't work overly well on one bar (all those passives!). Arcanist was fun but squishy, NB just wasn't my jam (not coordinated enough frankly or fast enough). So I went back to pure class one bar which has served me well enough all these years.

I was pleasantly surprised to find a pure class build was still viable in bg's. Turns out the people who could kill ya before subclassing still can and the people who couldn't still can't even with fancy new skills. Just gonna table subclassing myself unless some new innovation is introduced like being allowed to have a fourth skill line without giving up my three class lines. That'd be pretty cool and might be the only reason I ever bothered with subclassing again.

ghastley

My characters are individuals. They don't "identify with" anything. They do have class, and skills, and express them.

CalamityCat

I kept all my characters as pure classes and ignored subclassing entirely. There's no obligation to subclass and wreck class identity unless you want to do that. Having most of the classes and races already, I'll stick to the variety and challenge from playing pure classes effectively. I'm done chasing meta and dummy parsing with flavour of the week builds. Subclassing made it clear how ridiculous it is to waste time on build after build just to hit bigger numbers.

Besides, why would I want to play a bit of nightblade when I can have the full experience sneaking around with my pure NB? The same goes for all my classes. I created them so I had variety in combat and how they play. It suits the individual personalities and aesthetic I've given them. They make sense as pure classes and the "full" experience is a lot more fun and challenging.

Subclassing is just a nonsensical pick-and-mix mess where the "best" builds are about big dummy parse numbers with the same few popular skill lines. I'm surprised players aren't bored playing the same lines constantly.

Vulkunne

To be completely honest. I think in some instances subclass is helpful and is a nice change, not just because of the functionality but also because it allows for your mindset to change towards different things. In other words, in some instances Suprise Attack is best, in others, something from Arcanist or DK is better. Those are just examples pulled from a hat.

But the point sticks. In some ways it's a good thing. In other ways, subclass illuminates the existing faults in class balance that were not adjusted. Or perhaps they could not be adjusted, I'll give a little on that. The show must go on.

alpha_synuclein

I'm playing much less.

tomofhyrule

I like building my characters around their Class, not the other way around. It really makes each of my characters (and I have one per Class) feel more unique and interesting. Scribing and sets (and good old-fashioned imagination) take them the rest of the way to flesh them out fully.

I don’t participate in Subclassing on any of my alts. Even my main does it for 2h a week for my trial prog, and then I take it right back off. It’s just wrong to see him use powers and elements that he should not have access to based on his lore.

This wouldn’t be such a huge debate if things had actually been balanced properly. People would be able to pick what worked best for them. But the fact that Subclassing was released in the laziest way possible made it so there is objectively one powerful build and everything else is memetically underpowered. And since this is an MMO and you play with or against other people, “just don’t play meta if you don’t want to lol” doesn’t work when the balance is this far out of whack.

Subclassing is not without its benefits, I just wish it was truly optional instead of being “optional” like it is now. Heck, I would love to see more Classes come in so I can make more characters and see more skills… and now with Subclassing, everyone can use new Class skills instead of just being forced to make a new character.

Nestor

I solve this by not Sub Classing.

I am not chasing Hard Modes or Trifectas or Leader Boards, so, no need.

Gabriel_H

Nestor wrote: »

I solve this by not Sub Classing.

I am not chasing Hard Modes or Trifectas or Leader Boards, so, no need.

I don't subclass and chase hard modes and trifectas without issue.

The game is balanced around trifectas, not score pushing.

whitecrow

I'm not using it at all. I'm still playing the way I always have.
I haven't even used scribing outside of the story quest, though I haven't ruled that out.

valenwood_vegan

I've honestly dealt with it by abandoning most of my characters and playing ESO significantly less often as they've made these kinds of changes (starting with AwA).

There are other games that scratch that character creation / story / questing / progress / rpg itch way better at this point.

ESO has become more of a one-and-done, leave for other games till there's something new again, type of game for me. I have ~36 characters and I once played all of them regularly as if they were individuals, but now I mostly stick to my one subclassed meta character and just rush through everything.

(Outside of dungeons and trials with friends, but they've all become much less active too).

SilverBride

I have 6 characters (every class except Warden) that very much identify with their classes and will never subclass.

I also have a second Sorcerer that was originally created to PvP with a friend who ended up leaving the game shortly after. I ended up tweaking this character to run the Infinite Archive and occasional battlegrounds, and she has become my go to character for group content.

I recently did subclass her because she felt weaker after all the nerfs to Sorcerers. And her identity was never about her class but rather about the content she was built to participate in.

So that is how I deal with my characters' identities.

Castagere

I was totally against subclassing at first. The problem I see from reading this kind of post is that players are going overboard with it. And that is a player problem if you feel this way. I was not going to try it, but my two characters had almost 30 unused skill points on them. That was after maxing out all the weapon/armor and class skills on them. All their skills were maxed out. So I said What the heck, I will give them 1 skill line from another class. I pick what I want to do, not what some content creator said was the best. And it has worked out to be really fun.

Recent

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

instead of loosing a forced class identity that was very shallow due to the ongoing standardization of skills anyway what you are gaining is a huge amount of character / power fantasy identity because you can tailor a character much more around a specific fantasy - example

you want to build a ranger or druid or elementalist or ??? you can tailor it around that fantasy with the specific combination of skills and subclasses....

I think the way zos is moving to more of a classless skill system is not only much more Elder Scrolls, it also gives you much more freedom to tailor a specific character around your idea/ fantasy...

TES never had good class identity compared to something like for example GW2 who does that imo much better

I love your comment on this topic thank you so much...it makes my subclassing journey feel much more positive
Gave you an awesome

Recent

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I am one of those people who enjoy Subclassing. I've always just wanted to stick with one character, but my main motivation for leveling up other classes was for PvP builds only possible with those other classes. So, I'd have one main character for all content and then several neglected characters for PvP builds I couldn't try on my main.

Even now, there's still a lot of restriction. I can't use the Class Mastery or Class Sets of other classes, so I'll still have to pick up an alternate character just to play certain builds.

Because of this, I like to keep at least two skill lines of my base class for PvP builds that I theorycraft, partially because I'm trying to cope with the fact that my main will probably never get to use those builds that other classes can use. So, my solution is to just make a build that only my class can use, leveraging the restrictions of Subclassing in my favor.

Very interesting way to look at it. Thank you for your comment.

Recent

BretonMage wrote: »

I took a break during u46 but came back for u47 when ZOS made an attempt to rein in some of the power disparity of the meta.

I did give in to subclassing, but I'm only doing it to the extent that makes sense for my character. I still dislike the beam but at least it's a class grounded in magic, so I remain a mage. So there's that.

I dislike the gameplay of the beam, but in a game with mob packs and adds everywhere, I have to admit I love the constant AOE. If they gave the lightning staff its AOE back I'd be happier but this is alright (though not fun) for now.

I would never subclass into a weapon/physical damage class like NB though.

Tldr: subclassing into Arcanist was not fun but acceptable for rp reasons since I remain a mage.

I see what you did there, staying true to your magic user identity, love it. Thanks for this insight...gave you an awesome.

Tariq9898

I’m more concerned about the balance of the game rather than class identity.

That said, I feel class identity is primarily about having a consistent visual aesthetic that complements the overall theme, identity, and archetype of that class/character.

As such, I feel ZOS just needs to release more class styles.

Imagine Herald of the Tome with the DK theme. You’d be shooting a concentrated beam of fire from a Draconic mouth. Or a skeletal bear when using Warden with Necro.

I feel this would allow more room for subclassing whilst remaining true to class or character identity.

Recent

CalamityCat wrote: »

I kept all my characters as pure classes and ignored subclassing entirely. There's no obligation to subclass and wreck class identity unless you want to do that. Having most of the classes and races already, I'll stick to the variety and challenge from playing pure classes effectively. I'm done chasing meta and dummy parsing with flavour of the week builds. Subclassing made it clear how ridiculous it is to waste time on build after build just to hit bigger numbers.

Besides, why would I want to play a bit of nightblade when I can have the full experience sneaking around with my pure NB? The same goes for all my classes. I created them so I had variety in combat and how they play. It suits the individual personalities and aesthetic I've given them. They make sense as pure classes and the "full" experience is a lot more fun and challenging.

Subclassing is just a nonsensical pick-and-mix mess where the "best" builds are about big dummy parse numbers with the same few popular skill lines. I'm surprised players aren't bored playing the same lines constantly.

I agree with you on the meta and endless parsing/chasing big damage..does get tedious. I never bought into it myself. As a rp in my own head I tend to have a connection to class identity which is how my characters developed their own unique personalities, also via race and name and where they live. I agree strongly on your views. However, I have kept my pure builds and then I'm levelling my subclass builds too. I want to see where this will lead mainly out of curiosity to see what is possible.
Keep enjoying your game.

Recent

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I like building my characters around their Class, not the other way around. It really makes each of my characters (and I have one per Class) feel more unique and interesting. Scribing and sets (and good old-fashioned imagination) take them the rest of the way to flesh them out fully.

I don’t participate in Subclassing on any of my alts. Even my main does it for 2h a week for my trial prog, and then I take it right back off. It’s just wrong to see him use powers and elements that he should not have access to based on his lore.

This wouldn’t be such a huge debate if things had actually been balanced properly. People would be able to pick what worked best for them. But the fact that Subclassing was released in the laziest way possible made it so there is objectively one powerful build and everything else is memetically underpowered. And since this is an MMO and you play with or against other people, “just don’t play meta if you don’t want to lol” doesn’t work when the balance is this far out of whack.

Subclassing is not without its benefits, I just wish it was truly optional instead of being “optional” like it is now. Heck, I would love to see more Classes come in so I can make more characters and see more skills… and now with Subclassing, everyone can use new Class skills instead of just being forced to make a new character.

Very insightful comment, gave you an awesome. I agree with your comment about meta...seems every change takes us back there .

Elvenheart

Recent wrote: »

Hi forum friends,
at first I admit I was all against subclassing mainly cos I felt overwhelmed by all the changes I came back to in eso after a break. I play all classes and my alts have their skill lines maxed out so I do feel lucky in that way. However, I now have subclass skilllines on all my alts, I still kept their pure class builds saved on my armory just incase.
What I have found as I level up my subclass skills is that I am losing my character's class identity. There are many times i need to try to remember what class they are.

1. How do you feel about this change?
2. Do you find yourself struggling with your character's class identity after subclassing?
3. If you have embraced subclassing what did you do to still keep your character's class identity


I want to embrace subclassing cos it's here to stay and I have to admit it is fun being able to mix different skills from different classes. I just need some ideas to help me keep moving forward with this subclassing.
I appreciate all your comments and I'm reading each one. Your input on this topic has been phenomenal.

Love your question! I see you’ve gotten a lot of answers that run the gamut so I just thought I would throw mine in there.

When Subclassing was first announced, I was really excited about the concept! My first thought was that I could finally create the class I’ve always wanted, an Elementalist. I had an old level one Sorcerer that I just used to hold a name and for inventory space. I leveled that character to 50 using only the Storm Calling line and collected every skyshard in the game before Subclassiing ever went live. Since this character’s class identity was already an Elementalist in my mind, I played him like until he got better at mastering his powers he could only use Storm Calling. When Subclassing went live, the first thing I did was swap out the other two class lines for Ardent Flames and Winter’s Embrace, and finally, I had my dream class. I won’t say it’s any better or worse than any other classes, it’s definitely not “the meta”, but it’s fun for my play style.

Well, with that done, l was finally to start thinking about what to do with my existing characters. And that was when I ran into a block. For the most part, I found I liked my existing characters just the way they were. I also realized that if I subclassed any of them, I would have to have a good story reason for why it happened. It’s taken me this long, but just this week I decided to subclass my no-pet Oakensoul Sorcerer. The thing that kept me from doing it was that he used Hardened Ward, but inspiration from a friend finally helped me about the bullet. I’ve given him assassination and Adric spear, and so far those classes are at level 27. I can’t believe how fast they leveled, just finishing the Subclassing quest made them jump to level 7 and that’s without any experience scrolls and only one skill from each line on the skill bar! At that point, I unlocked another skill on each line and put those on the skill bar as well, and I have used some 50% EXP scrolls while running random daily dungeons. I’ve done this the last two days and got them to level 25 that way already. As for the endgame reasoning, this character always hated the thought of summoning daedra or dark magic and only used one skill from those lines anyway, so now he’s just becoming more of the way I originally envisioned him to be, so in my mind, his class identity has not changed, just become more accurate.

Another couple of ideas I have for existing characters that in my mind preserves their class identity for me - if I give Herald of the Tome to one of my characters, they will still be whatever class they were before, but they will have been chosen by Apocrypha to receive a Book, so I’ll swap that out with their least used class line, but they’ll still be the same class to me. And one of my vampire Nightblades is thinking about starting to learn Necromancy, but they’ll still be a Nightblade, one that just is learning some Necromatic skills.

Seaviy

Recent wrote: »

Hi forum friends,
at first I admit I was all against subclassing mainly cos I felt overwhelmed by all the changes I came back to in eso after a break. I play all classes and my alts have their skill lines maxed out so I do feel lucky in that way. However, I now have subclass skilllines on all my alts, I still kept their pure class builds saved on my armory just incase.
What I have found as I level up my subclass skills is that I am losing my character's class identity. There are many times i need to try to remember what class they are.

1. How do you feel about this change?
2. Do you find yourself struggling with your character's class identity after subclassing?
3. If you have embraced subclassing what did you do to still keep your character's class identity


I want to embrace subclassing cos it's here to stay and I have to admit it is fun being able to mix different skills from different classes. I just need some ideas to help me keep moving forward with this subclassing.
I appreciate all your comments and I'm reading each one. Your input on this topic has been phenomenal.

I like the idea of subclassing and the freedom it provides.
The current Beam PvE meta may seem restrictive, but I think all meta builds are like that.
In my opinion, subclassing really shines in Solo and PvP builds. I enjoy creating themed builds around specific elements. Also some spells and effects looks nice together even with different classes, such as necro-sorc or dk-warden-templar.
If you feel that your class identity suffers from this but still want to try subclassing, I advise changing only one skill tree to one that you feel is more suitable. This way you will keep most of the identity of your class and only complete the missing points.

Araneae6537

Characters whose class fit their identity well, I don’t use subclassing with, but I don’t chase any meta with most of my characters (and even that may be one of their builds). The characters where I could almost forget what class they were created as are those where there class never fit them well or ceased to at some point. So for me it’s been great, along with scribing, for my characters’ identities.

karthrag_inak

Khajiit does not believe in 'class identity', especially not in an Elder Scrolls game. This one has avoided nearly all other games that force him to attempt to fit into some bald-bottom ***-wad's vision of how RPGs should be run and how his characters should be - no thanks! Khajiit's -characters- provide their identity, not the 'club' they belong to.

Even Gary Gygax got away from the enforced class-based "LOTR-plus-plus" version of who and what characters can be with his first post D&D game Dangerous Journeys, which did not have classes.

This one has played ES games since Arena was released, and there are only 2 reasons why this one continues to do so.
1. Khajiit
2. Skill-based not class-based.

Finally ESO is truly an ES game.

All 19 of this one's khajiit (as well as his argonian with fluffy delusions) have at least some subclassing going on, although khajiit is still experimenting.

To be honest, Subclassing has allowed all 20 of this one's main characters be MORE of who they are, more distilled and precise and unique in their own identity.